Kokomo City | For The Love of Docs
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Transcript
00:00 (upbeat music)
00:02 - We are joined now by Kokomo City director,
00:10 producer, editor, cinematographer, Dee Smith.
00:13 Thank you so much for being with us.
00:16 - Oh, thank you so much, Matt.
00:18 So good to see you again.
00:19 I'm very, very happy to be a part of this.
00:21 - Great to see you.
00:22 First talk with you right before Sundance,
00:26 where the film made its world premiere,
00:27 won two awards there and has gone on to win awards
00:30 around the world, including in Berlin.
00:33 So it's really extraordinary the way the film took off.
00:36 And I wanted to ask you initially
00:38 about your idea for the film,
00:41 and that also you initially went to other people
00:45 to ask them to direct it and you got no's.
00:49 - Oh yeah, oh yeah.
00:51 Well, first of all, I mean, I was inspired to do the film
00:56 because at the time,
00:58 there were a lot of transgender content
01:04 and narratives, television, and also social media wise.
01:09 But to me, as remarkable as the works were,
01:15 it still felt like we were missing an opportunity
01:19 to actually talk to our people, black people,
01:23 and from trans women.
01:25 It's just felt like there was a lot of missed opportunities.
01:27 And I think it's just was a language barrier.
01:32 A lot of times people just couldn't relate
01:35 to a lot of things that trans women were saying
01:37 or experiencing.
01:38 So I wanted to find a way to kind of neutralize
01:42 that dichotomy.
01:44 And yeah, I was very excited about it.
01:47 And I saw it so clear, but I saw it so clear
01:51 that I thought it was an easy sell
01:53 to other filmmakers.
01:56 And I had never done a film before,
01:59 so I didn't even think about me being the director
02:02 or any of those other hats.
02:03 But when you get no's, it's just lets you know
02:08 that it was not meant to be,
02:11 and it was meant to do those parts in the film.
02:15 - Yeah, and I think it's remarkable all that you achieve.
02:22 Oddly, I'm so happy that they said no.
02:25 I'm sure at the time it was not great to hear that,
02:28 but it allowed you to really bring
02:32 your authorial voice to this.
02:35 It's really an auteur driven film in my view.
02:40 And it is different from other depictions of trans people
02:45 that have maybe been a bit glamorized.
02:48 Here you were, you really wanted it to be authentic
02:53 and not kind of glossed over in some way.
02:58 - Yeah, I mean, it is a part of our culture
03:01 as queer trans people that we're perfect
03:04 and there's this over the top-ness about our asana
03:08 and our presence, right?
03:10 This has been that way from the beginning.
03:12 And I think the seriousness or the simplicity
03:17 of our message get lost in that process
03:21 of making everything so perfect and shiny.
03:25 And I thought that, I don't know,
03:29 I thought it could be challenging in terms of like
03:33 maybe people being out of their comfort zone,
03:34 but it actually hyped and really sold these women
03:39 to be a part of this film.
03:40 Like they just saw something really fresh and new
03:44 to be a part of, right?
03:45 So yeah, it worked out, definitely worked out.
03:49 - You're also the casting director on the film.
03:53 How did you select Daniela, Dominique,
03:56 Coco the Doll and Leah?
03:58 - Initially I went on social media.
04:02 I went to like Instagram, went to Instagram,
04:07 but I went to like the celebrity,
04:10 high profile trans women in the industry.
04:14 And I went through their comments,
04:16 I just kind of sifted through their comments,
04:18 found the girls that way,
04:20 because really my goal was to cast women
04:24 that look like the girls that were being killed, right?
04:28 I wanted, those women never have a platform
04:33 until it's too late.
04:35 So I wanted to get a deeper inside, intimate conversation
04:42 and look into that world.
04:44 It's even deeper than like your everyday trans woman's life.
04:49 Then I was even deeper and even darker, even harder.
04:53 And maybe find some answers to why so many trans women
04:58 are being murdered or the misunderstandings of trans women
05:02 and black men's relationships.
05:05 - I was so fascinated the first time I saw it
05:10 by how you shot it, the framing, the angles.
05:15 Often the women are, you're shooting them from below.
05:21 You talk about those decisions.
05:24 - Yeah, I mean, the film was to empower the women
05:30 or all the subjects really, even the men in the film,
05:33 it was to empower them.
05:34 And I wanted to, I don't know, it's kind of like,
05:38 in kindergarten or grade school,
05:40 when the teacher tells a story, we kind of like sit around.
05:43 Well, back in the day, I don't know if I'm telling my age,
05:46 but back in the day we sat on the floor
05:48 and our legs folded and we looked up to the teacher
05:51 because she had all the answers
05:52 and it was quite comfortable.
05:54 And there was something very authoritative about that.
05:59 And I wanted to give these women that same dignity
06:03 and that same grace.
06:04 And also I wanted people not to feel,
06:08 like it was so sterile.
06:12 I wanted a very relaxed, intimate, calming
06:16 kind of atmosphere with the women.
06:19 And then even with the camera,
06:20 I did a lot of intentional shaking or movement
06:25 because this is what we do as humans.
06:27 When someone's talking, we're either fidgeting
06:29 with something or we're wiping something or we're just,
06:32 so I did my best to really get people into that space
06:37 of being as intimate as possible with those subjects.
06:41 - You've talked about this being very much a film
06:46 directed at the black community.
06:47 Obviously, anyone, everyone can experience it,
06:51 but you've got a real message here for the black community.
06:56 - Yeah.
06:59 Yeah, I mean, it's quite urgent.
07:02 I think to be very candid,
07:05 the black community, man,
07:09 we're so divided and we're so distracted
07:15 and we're so unhealed and we're just hurt.
07:20 And a lot of those things are happening to each other
07:27 and from each other.
07:28 And this is a small part of our big issue.
07:34 This is what I have to offer, "Kokomo City."
07:38 And this is why it was so important for me
07:40 to add the male protagonist
07:42 because it shows the reality of the community of trans women.
07:47 We talk with black women, we talk with black men,
07:53 but we hardly ever hear from black men in a positive way
07:58 when in terms of speaking to and about trans women.
08:02 So any messages that I could do to connect my community,
08:07 that's what the goal was.
08:11 Again, it's a very small part of the community's issues,
08:16 but it's such a big part at the same time
08:19 because this is what people are focused on
08:21 so much in the black community,
08:22 who's having sex with who and who's doing what
08:24 and what's what.
08:25 So yeah, I guess one day at a time, one step at a time,
08:30 but this is what I wanted to offer.
08:33 - And I think Daniela more than anyone else
08:36 really breaks it down.
08:37 I mean, she's this amazing cultural critic.
08:41 Like she's like Dr. Ibram X. Kendi or something.
08:46 - I just got chills.
08:47 I just got chills when you said that.
08:49 - Yeah, she says at one point, I'm gonna quote here,
08:52 "The black experience has always been limited
08:54 "to the way in which a white person told us we could live.
09:00 "And we threaten that as black trans people."
09:03 I mean, that's really deep
09:06 because she's really critiquing
09:09 why a lot of straight people in the black community
09:13 might feel uncomfortable with trans people.
09:17 It's sort of like, oh, you're embarrassing us
09:20 and we're trying to get along in this culture,
09:22 but they're not looking at it as,
09:24 look at the box you've been put in.
09:28 - Wow, that's deep, Matt.
09:32 And Daniela has this really amazing gift of using words.
09:37 And it's just amazing that she was able to use these words
09:48 the way that she did
09:50 because she's never had the opportunity to just be herself
09:53 and say how she feels and spoke directly to the people.
09:57 Again, there are a lot of reasons
10:01 why black people are in such a rut
10:04 in an unforgiving space, you know?
10:06 But she definitely hit on a lot of the deep points
10:11 that people just can't grasp.
10:13 - She lays it out there
10:17 in the most extraordinary way, I think.
10:22 Your experience as a coming out as trans,
10:27 in some respects, is very different.
10:29 You were a very successful singer, songwriter
10:33 in the music business.
10:33 You worked with some of the great talents,
10:35 Lil Wayne, Grammy nominated.
10:39 So you did not, from economic necessity,
10:44 you don't have to do sex work,
10:47 but I'm sure that in other respects,
10:50 you can really identify with the women in the film
10:53 because as you've told me before,
10:56 when you did come out as trans, you really lost everything.
10:59 You lost your career in the music business.
11:02 - Yeah.
11:03 And I did, but I'm also understanding that
11:08 even just 10 years ago,
11:13 the opportunities and the knowledge and the exposure
11:19 and the accessibility to trans awareness
11:23 just wasn't what it is today.
11:25 Not giving people a pat on the back
11:30 for discriminating against, but looking back,
11:35 it had never been done before,
11:39 especially in the black community.
11:42 You know, here you are, a producer,
11:44 working with some of the top artists in the industry
11:49 and decides to transition into a female.
11:53 And when you're dealing with mostly black people
11:57 in that spectrum of the industry, who are your allies?
12:01 And then I could say that music industry,
12:09 but we have to go person by person.
12:11 What was their upbringing?
12:12 Who raised them and what were their experiences?
12:15 And black men mostly dealt with some black women stuff
12:20 in the industry too.
12:21 But the black men that runs the industry
12:27 that I was dealing with,
12:28 they weren't prepared mentally or emotionally
12:32 to deal with me, no matter how good we work together
12:35 or how much money I made them.
12:37 It didn't matter.
12:40 It didn't matter.
12:42 But 10 years now, look at us now.
12:44 So that's the good news.
12:47 Progress was made.
12:48 - Yeah, I mean, from my perspective,
12:52 I think there's been huge strides in terms of visibility,
12:57 some degree of acceptance,
12:59 maybe going a little bit off track in terms of the film,
13:03 but with acceptance and visibility
13:05 comes the inevitable backlash.
13:08 So then you get the political ramifications and pushback.
13:13 You live in Florida
13:18 and that's one of the biggest states trying to
13:21 not allow education of children,
13:25 banning trans story time, things of that nature.
13:29 So it's a step forward
13:32 and then at least one step back in some respects.
13:37 Again, 10 years ago,
13:39 this is what I always tell trans people and queer people.
13:43 10 years ago, we weren't even talked about,
13:46 especially in legislation or Congress or the halls of DC.
13:53 We're being talked about and things are being pushed.
13:59 And even if they're not being pushed in our favor,
14:02 we're not gonna go back to where we were.
14:05 That's the good news, we're here.
14:07 Just like when women got the rights to work and to vote
14:11 and to do these things and black people, same thing,
14:15 they had to fight and they had to make their demands known
14:20 and people lost their lives
14:21 and people lost family and friends.
14:24 And this is where we are as trans women,
14:26 but it's still progress
14:28 and it's still progress for queer people
14:30 and the queer community.
14:33 - Well, I think that's a really hopeful message,
14:35 which is great.
14:38 The four main characters in your films,
14:43 we've talked about,
14:45 Daniela, Dominique, Leah and Coco Didal.
14:48 And as we see at the end of the film,
14:51 there's that tragic kind of message that Coco was killed.
14:57 And see all of the women in the film
15:01 talking about the inherent danger of sex work.
15:04 I guess, to my knowledge,
15:07 no one has been arrested in her death
15:09 and we don't know if the circumstances
15:13 related to sex work or not.
15:14 There's some evidence that maybe it was,
15:18 but it's obviously been crushing for you
15:23 to lose someone you became close to
15:26 and to know that somebody like her
15:29 never had a film made about them,
15:31 never had their story told.
15:33 - Yeah.
15:35 Well, an arrest was made months ago.
15:39 Yeah.
15:41 And I'm very grateful for that.
15:43 But at the same time,
15:45 it's still tragic on both sides.
15:48 You have the loss of our dear sister, Coco,
15:52 but you have a young black man
15:54 whose life is completely taken away
15:57 because of lack of confidence,
16:02 lack of understanding, lack of courage,
16:06 lack of acceptance, or even someone just to hear him
16:11 without feeling judged.
16:12 I don't know exactly the details of the case,
16:19 but I did talk to the family a few weeks ago,
16:22 maybe a month ago.
16:25 And it's ongoing.
16:26 He is in jail.
16:27 But this is, you know, it's, yes,
16:34 we could celebrate that we're getting justice for her,
16:38 but again, it's a young black man that
16:41 doesn't have a chance at life either.
16:47 So it's not a win-win for sure.
16:52 And something happened, just like,
16:54 this is what "Cocomel City" is about.
16:56 No matter what the circumstances, why death?
17:04 Why?
17:05 Who taught him that?
17:07 What made him so angry to take someone's life?
17:12 So these type of things are the discussions
17:18 that we need to have in the community.
17:20 And I think that's what we need to do.
17:22 And I think that's what we need to do.
17:24 And I think that's what we need to do.
17:26 And I think that's what we need to do.
17:28 And I think that's what we need to do.
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17:42 And I think that's what we need to do.
17:44 - I think that's what we need to do.
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17:48 - And I think that's what we need to do.
17:50 - And I think that's what we need to do.
17:52 - And I think that's what we need to do.
17:54 - And I think that's what we need to do.
17:56 - And I think that's what we need to do.
17:58 - And I think that's what we need to do.
18:00 - And I think that's what we need to do.
18:02 - And I think that's what we need to do.
18:04 - And I think that's what we need to do.
18:06 - And I think that's what we need to do.
18:08 - And I think that's what we need to do.
18:10 - And I think that's what we need to do.
18:12 - And I think that's what we need to do.
18:14 - And I think that's what we need to do.
18:16 - And I think that's what we need to do.
18:18 - And I think that's what we need to do.
18:20 - And I think that's what we need to do.
18:22 - And I think that's what we need to do.
18:24 - And I think that's what we need to do.
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19:38 - And I think that's what we need to do.
19:40 [music]
19:42 (upbeat music)