Interview with MUSHIKIWABO Louise
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00:00 Honorable Minister, first of all, let me welcome you to Contact FM.
00:04 Nowadays, refugee numbers of Congolese people is close to 12,000 people.
00:11 How is this being handled?
00:13 Let me say that the handling of the refugee situation since the last flare-up in eastern DRC has been very good.
00:28 And I think much as we have not appreciated some of the action by UN agencies,
00:39 particularly the agency responsible for the stability of the Congo, MONUSCO,
00:45 we also have appreciated the work of some of the UN agencies,
00:50 particularly lately the agencies responsible for refugees.
00:58 We have over the last many weeks had excellent collaboration.
01:07 The ministry, the Rwandan ministry in charge of refugees and disaster management,
01:14 has worked very well with the UNHCR, UNHCR Rwanda, UNHCR Goma,
01:21 the World Food Program, and other UN agencies have been available.
01:30 They have acted in a smart way in front of a situation that was unexpected.
01:37 In the beginning we had quite a large flow of refugees.
01:45 Then it slowed down, but recently in the last few days we have noticed that a minimum of 100 people have been coming in yesterday
01:57 and the day before close to 150 people each night, each day have come in.
02:04 So I think much as we really want to see stability quickly in eastern DRC, on our borders, in our region,
02:18 I think so far the refugee situation is being handled properly.
02:25 We have now, yes, over 11, close to 12,000 refugees in Ngamira Camp in northern Rwanda.
02:36 It's a transit camp and there are plans to move several thousand refugees to southern Rwanda
02:45 in another location that has been readied to receive refugees.
02:51 But of course more importantly we expect the situation to get better in the DRC as soon as possible
02:59 so that these families can be reunited and go back to their home and their country.
03:05 We know that you've been meeting with Congolese officials throughout the month of May.
03:10 Did you anticipate that things would escalate to this point?
03:15 I think at this point the situation is not good.
03:23 But I wouldn't talk about escalation yet because we believe, Rwanda believes,
03:30 that the situation of tension and war in eastern DRC is reversible.
03:38 It can be stopped. It is of course up to the government and the defense forces of the Democratic Republic of Congo
03:49 to take some decisions, to organize as they see fit.
03:56 But I'm also very aware of the fact that there are some external factors in this conflict and in this region.
04:10 It's not the first time. And they tend to have a very superficial way of looking at things.
04:17 And they also tend to think that we in this region, and this very much applies to Africa in general,
04:28 that we cannot solve our own problems.
04:31 And the experience of this region has shown that when we, the two countries,
04:37 particularly this same conflict, because this is not the first time we have this tension and volatility in eastern DRC.
04:44 The last time there was, we've been enjoying peace in the last three to four years.
04:53 And there is no question that that peace in the last four years was arrived at because of the efforts of our leaders,
05:04 of our presidents, and the efforts of the two countries.
05:07 So it would be a big mistake for partners and other stakeholders in this region and in the Democratic Republic of Congo
05:19 to think that somebody else, an outsider, will come and fix this.
05:23 We need help. We can use help always in anything from our friends, from our partners we've been working with.
05:33 But for that to happen, we in Rwanda believe that it will not be possible if we continue to look at the symptoms and not the illness.
05:43 And if we do not go to the root of the problem and try to fix it, and we go from one rebellion to another.
05:51 So all of us, the international community, whatever that means, really has to act in a much deeper, more responsible,
06:01 and definitely more sustainable way.
06:04 So to go back to your question, we did not, when this conflict started, think that the number of refugees would keep increasing
06:13 and that we would not see an end to this.
06:15 We have had, as you mentioned, a number of meetings at the highest level with our neighbors and brothers in the eastern DRC.
06:25 The last such meeting was less than 10 days ago here in Kigali.
06:31 Our defense and security chiefs have met, have talked.
06:36 But we, of course, would want the situation to get better and get better sooner than later
06:45 because the kind of volatility, the kind of instability that has prevailed in this region in the past is something we want gone.
07:00 That's what we believed in 2009, and we would want, as Rwanda, of course, we have invested heavily in peace with Congo, in stability,
07:13 and we are ready to move a bit faster on other fronts, economic front.
07:20 We want to be able to give conditions and an environment that is suitable for our people.
07:28 So no, we did not expect it to last this long, but to be honest, there is only so much Rwanda can do in this, but we've played our part.
07:39 As you were talking about partnership between Rwanda and Congo on the government level,
07:44 so let me ask you about the joint verification mechanisms.
07:49 When can we expect to hear the findings from these joint verification mechanisms?
07:55 Is it true that there are some problems with this exercise?
07:59 Because some observers are talking about tension, like, for example, yesterday,
08:05 in the US, a US blogger is very famous.
08:09 He tweeted that it looks like relations are about to deteriorate between Kigali and Kinshasa.
08:15 What do you say about this?
08:17 I'm glad you mentioned bloggers and others.
08:25 You know, we've said it before, and Rwanda was very clear in the last week.
08:31 We've spoken very clearly about some of the reports, including the one from MONUSCO.
08:37 We were happy to see that MONUSCO has retracted the accusations against Rwanda.
08:44 There are any number of actors in this conflict, any number of interests, and again, this is not a fresh conflict.
08:56 This is something that we've seen before, and I'd say everybody needs to catch their breath and cool off and calm down.
09:10 Right now, when one looks through media reports and blogs and so forth, there are so many people who are just wishing for war.
09:22 There are so many people who have now positioned themselves, they have predicted, they have, you know, wrongly pushed Rwanda into the picture.
09:31 Rwanda is not the cause of this conflict.
09:34 Rwanda is in no way part of this problem, but we've tried to be helpful, as we have done in the past when these issues emerged,
09:47 which is what justifies our intense dialogue with the DRC.
09:55 It's a very strong commitment, and especially since the last summit in Goma between our two heads of state in 2009.
10:04 So there are any number of people who look like they are watching a football match and they are waiting for somebody to score.
10:15 We cannot be distracted by that kind of thing.
10:19 We are responsible governments.
10:22 Yes, you talked about the verification mechanism.
10:26 Let me remind you that the verification mechanism was put in place way, way before M23.
10:34 We have had our own bilateral mechanisms, especially at the level of defense and security,
10:43 and Rwanda have done a good job.
10:45 They have consulted, they have met, they have set up, yes, a number of mechanisms to ensure long-term stability,
10:55 and this verification mechanism was put in place precisely because both Rwanda and the DRC understand that this is a region with so many competing interests,
11:07 with many rebel groups, with many armed groups, and therefore it's very important to get the story right.
11:17 So the joint verification mechanism was designed to sift through all these rumors, all these creations,
11:25 all the potential manipulations by different groups, so it was anticipated.
11:30 But the key is to remember, and yes, you know, there are people who would want this mechanism not to work.
11:39 There are people who want to make it difficult, but the key is to remember that the cost of failure would be too high.
11:48 The cost of our common endeavor to bring stability to this region and the verification mechanism is one of them.
11:58 The cost of it failing would be really very high, so we need to get this right,
12:02 and we have to avoid the temptation of acting like, you know, something terrible should happen and we're ready for it any time.
12:12 So the verification mechanism, as you can imagine, for Rwanda is an important mechanism,
12:19 and certainly, you know, the latest reports and so forth, Rwanda is looking beyond one incident,
12:31 Rwanda is looking beyond rumors, and Rwanda certainly will benefit from a very thorough
12:39 and very clear verification of what is going on, and it's part of what will allow us, the two countries,
12:48 to move to a much more stable situation.
12:52 any idea about what's going on.