'Loser is humanity: We're losing sight of norms post-WWII which govern whole human relationships'
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00:00 James Mulholland with that report. Let's get some broader analysis and bring in Oliver McTernan,
00:04 Director of Forward Thinking. Oliver, thank you for being with us. I'm wondering how you're reading
00:09 this situation right now. Hamas considering this peace plan, but obviously Israel continues its
00:13 bombardment. I think Mark quoted there the gap between the expectations of Hamas and the
00:22 statements of Netanyahu. Sunday's talks that brought in Bill Burns and high level participation
00:32 began with this standoff between Hamas saying we want a permanent ceasefire. In addition,
00:39 we want the principle of all for all, all the prisoners for all the hostages discussed. Netanyahu
00:46 was saying no way will there be a ceasefire until we achieve all our objectives, including the total
00:53 demise of Hamas and Gaza, and also I'm not willing to discuss the all for all principle. So how do
01:01 you breach that gap? Now, what we're told is these phases, but the report you had from Gaza,
01:08 we heard the voice of Gaza, the people need now a permanent ceasefire. And we're going to mess
01:15 around for the next, and I use that word intentionally, we're going to mess around
01:22 for the next maybe two weeks, three weeks or whatever to get a phase saying, okay, we'll feed
01:29 you, we'll treat you in this period, but then we'll go back to killing you. I don't think it's
01:34 what's needed. The cry of the people, the 2.4 million or 2.3 million people in Gaza is we need
01:43 a ceasefire now, we need food, we need medicine, we need to get our lives back. And that's what
01:49 should be heard by both sides. 1,200 Israelis killed by Hamas on October the 7th. I don't think
01:55 anybody speaking from a strictly neutral point has anything to say about that other than it was
02:00 an atrocity. But then you look at the death toll now currently over 26,900 killed. It does seem,
02:06 I think if you look at it again with neutral eyes, disproportionate. Who's in the way of stopping
02:12 this? Is it solely Benjamin Netanyahu? He seems to be the one who seems the most going aho about
02:17 going forward and continuing with this war. I fear so. I mean, you're right in saying there's no
02:24 debate over the 7th of October. It was horrendous what happened. But the issue is what the old
02:32 saying used to be, the law lex talionis, an eye for an eye, a tooth for the tooth. The whole thing
02:38 was about containing retribution or retaliation. We've totally lost sight of that. And my fear is
02:45 that you've got two leaders now, on the one hand, Netanyahu, the other hand, Senua, who are locked
02:52 in their certainties, are determined that the survival depends on either of them coming out on
02:58 top of this. And the loser is not just the million, a couple of million people in Gaza, the loser is
03:04 humanity, because we're losing sight of the norms that were in place after the Second World War,
03:12 which should govern our whole human relationships. Disputes will happen. But if we can't deal with
03:18 them in a human way, if we resort to this sort of level of violence and retaliation, I fear what's
03:25 down the road for us, for the whole of humanity. So I think two people, two leaders now seem to be
03:33 locked in this confrontation. And the price, not just as I say, the frontline prices paid by the
03:40 millions in Gaza, but the long term price will be paid by all of us.
03:45 Because while Hamas is considering this deal, what is really important is what Israel does,
03:50 isn't it? Yes. And we just look at what's happened. We had just, we're not into a week
03:57 since the ICJ judgment. And we don't see any significant change in Israeli operations in Gaza.
04:06 And again, that should be deeply worrying. I think there's one player in all of this,
04:12 and I'm afraid that's Joe Biden. And Biden really needs to look beyond the immediate,
04:19 the political interests and say, look, what I'm looking at now is the whole international order,
04:26 a rule based society, how we deal with each other as human beings. And I think he must intervene and
04:33 say to the Israeli government, enough, we cannot support this. We can't give the political
04:39 protection we've been given. Because as you said, rightly, earlier on, the whole principle
04:45 of proportionality is being lost. The US sitting on blocking aid for Ukraine, but at the same time
04:52 continues to send aid of all kinds to Israel. This is something that perhaps needs to be looked at
04:58 again. This is what you're saying. Exactly. Because it's first and foremost, the people
05:06 who are suffering are the people of Gaza. I'm here in Cairo, I've just been talking all day
05:13 with people who have come out of Gaza, people who time after time rebuilt Gaza after the five wars
05:21 that we've witnessed, but they are totally traumatized. I don't think the extent of what
05:28 is happening to the people in Gaza, and the long term impact that's going to have, I don't think
05:33 that is registered, because there isn't enough human contact. The only people on the front line
05:40 there are the UN workers who have gone in the World Health Organization people, the doctors
05:48 that have gone in, they're on the front line, they see the human impact and what the politicians and
05:54 leaders should be doing is listening to them, getting an objective feedback from people going
06:00 in and seeing the terrible impact this is having on so many people. Oliver McTernan, Director of
06:08 Forward Thinking, thank you very much for joining us from Cairo to talk more about the situation.
06:11 We appreciate your analysis. Thank you, sir, very much indeed. Oliver Ternan of Forward
06:15 Thinking, thank you, sir. We continue of course to watch for all developments on the situation.
06:20 Let's give you a little bit more about what's been happening. Of course, later on we'll tell
06:25 you more about the bombardment which has continued in Gaza.