Norwich vs Sunderland preview with Norwich writer Connor Southwell from The Pink Un
Joe Nicholson is joined by Norwich City writer Connor Southwell from The Pink Un to discuss Saturday's Championship match between Sunderland and Norwich at Carrow Road
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00:00 Hello and welcome to the RAW podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo.
00:28 We're back for another preview podcast ahead of Sunderland's championship match against
00:34 Norwich City at Carrow Road.
00:36 So joining myself, Joe Nicholson, we are joined by Norwich writer Connor Southwell from The
00:41 Pink Un.
00:42 Connor, thanks a lot for joining us and just looking at the results, I imagine it's been
00:47 a bit easier to write about Norwich in recent weeks.
00:50 Yeah, thanks for having me, Joe.
00:52 Yeah, I think that's fair to say.
00:54 It's been a lot more pleasurable than it was for the months before Christmas, I would say.
00:58 And yeah, they're in a real nice position at the moment, which is nice.
01:03 So certainly from this end, long may it continue.
01:06 Yeah, just looking at the table, Norwich up to seventh in the championship, just three
01:11 points off the playoffs.
01:13 Their recent results, they've had three wins and two draws in their last five.
01:17 And the last time Sunderland fans would have seen Norwich against Sunderland was back in
01:21 October, a game which Sunderland won 3-1 at the Stadium of Light.
01:26 Norwich were in a poor run of form at that stage and there seemed to be some serious
01:30 questions about whether David Wagner would keep his job there.
01:33 They've obviously stuck with him.
01:35 So are you able to kind of tell us how the kind of last few months have played out with
01:39 Wagner still there?
01:41 Yeah, and to be honest, those questions, even in the really good runs this season, have
01:45 still existed around David Wagner.
01:48 It's been really difficult for him to shift.
01:50 Norwich beat Watford a couple of weeks ago at home 4-2 and some of his substitutions
01:55 while Norwich were 2-1 up in that game were booed.
01:57 And there was some chance of you don't know what you're doing.
01:59 And he had a little pop back after the game as well, which I think a few people have seen.
02:04 Yeah, I mean, the Sunderland game was, I felt at that stage, watching him in his post-match,
02:11 you know, we get to watch managers post-match and you can often tell sort of from body language
02:16 and from the way they speak and things they say sometimes.
02:19 And I felt, to be completely honest, that he felt at the Stadium of Light, that was
02:23 the end of the road for him, from the way he was speaking, from the way he delivered
02:27 some of his messages, from his tone, from his demeanour and his body language.
02:31 And I think I probably left the Stadium of Light that night thinking, this is it.
02:36 This is probably the last time that, you know, we're going to see him.
02:38 He was in charge for the game following that, which was Blackburn Rovers at home.
02:44 Norwich City were resoundingly beaten 3-1 on that occasion.
02:48 They were woeful.
02:49 And if Sunderland didn't feel like the end point, then that definitely did.
02:53 He was helped a little bit because Norwich had a change in sporting director.
02:57 So around that period, Stuart Webber, who was due to leave later in November, accelerated
03:01 his departure.
03:02 Ben Knapper came in a little bit earlier from Arsenal and then they won away at Cardiff
03:08 and that led to an international break.
03:10 Again, I think that maybe the common feeling was, because of all the movements that had
03:14 happened and accelerations of people's arrivals and whatnot, that he was going to lose his
03:18 job.
03:19 At that point, I think they've only lost four games and they've really been on kind of a
03:24 problem-solving journey, I would say.
03:26 They were too open in transition, as you guys would have seen at the Stadium of Light, too
03:29 easy to play against, essentially.
03:33 I think as a coaching team and as the playing staff, they sat down in that November international
03:38 break and said, we've got to change.
03:40 We've got to change what we are and what we're trying to do.
03:42 They made themselves more defensively solid and they went from a stage of conceding two
03:46 goals a game, as they were on average, to half in that.
03:49 So conceding an R roughly around that sort of mark now, conceding one a game.
03:54 And in really subtle tweaks in terms of just one full-back attacking instead of two all
03:58 the time and having a number six that sits a little bit more than they were doing.
04:04 So it made themselves a little bit tougher to beat.
04:06 And then they got to a stage in January where they weren't scoring enough goals and they
04:09 maybe tipped too far the other way.
04:11 So they had to kind of readdress that balance, which was helped partly by Josh Sargent returning
04:16 and the impact that he's had on their season.
04:19 And in the last few weeks, up to probably Blackburn, really, it felt like they had a
04:24 really nice balance about them and kind of hit that sweet spot between looking maybe
04:29 not solid completely, but definitely looking better defensively than they had, but also
04:33 combining that with some real attacking Verve.
04:35 So yeah, it feels like it's been about three seasons in one.
04:39 I'm sure it feels about seven, you guys up there.
04:43 But yeah, they're in a really good run of form at the moment, particularly at Carrow
04:47 Road where they're 10-0 unbeaten.
04:49 They haven't actually lost there since that Blackburn game.
04:51 So yeah, they're in a really good way.
04:54 They've got a bit of a swagger about them at the moment.
04:57 What's the view about Wagner now with the fan base?
04:59 You mentioned that they had a bit of criticism and as some of the fans will know with Michael
05:03 Beale, if a fan base aren't happy with the manager, it's very difficult for him to turn
05:08 that around.
05:09 So have some Norwich fans been turned or is there still kind of questions on Wagner and
05:13 what will be the expectations this season?
05:15 I think, and you got this a little bit after Saturday, I'm sure you guys have got it or
05:19 had it with Mick Beale as well.
05:22 You can win a couple of games but lose one.
05:24 And when you lose that one or Norwich don't pick up three points in one, as they didn't
05:29 at the weekend against Blackburn, you begin to hear these kind of arguments again for
05:33 why he's not the right man and that sort of fan base.
05:36 And that's something that he's had to contest with all through the season.
05:39 I think it's very difficult.
05:41 He went on a run of one win in 11 at the back in the last season.
05:45 Then it was seven defeats in nine in that autumn period where Norwich came to the stain
05:48 of light.
05:49 A lot of people have made their mind up on him really.
05:51 And as you said, football fans usually aren't returning when they've made their mind up
05:57 on someone.
05:58 And I would say even though, and maybe the best assessment of how he's done is that some
06:03 of that noise has been quieter in recent weeks.
06:06 It's not and has never really this season fully gone away.
06:09 And that's the problem that he's got.
06:11 I think it feels like after everything came to a head against Watford a couple of weeks
06:15 ago, there's been a little bit of a truce now for the final 12 games to try and push
06:18 the team over the line into the top six.
06:21 But yeah, I can guarantee you a couple of results in the negative column and we'll be
06:27 back in that place talking about David Vardyna's future again, I'd imagine.
06:31 You mentioned some of the things there that he changed tactically, but how will they set
06:35 up against Sunderland at Carrow Road on Saturday?
06:38 You mentioned there the home form is a lot better than their away form.
06:42 Just having a quick look now at home, Norwich 1-11 drawn two, lost four this season away,
06:47 won four, drawn five and lost eight.
06:50 So how will they set up against Sunderland?
06:52 What's been the difference between that home and away form?
06:54 Yeah, I think that's a question that a lot of people have been scratching their heads
06:57 and asking this week, actually, because four wins on the road for a team that is trying
07:01 to get in the playoffs.
07:02 I mean, it's clearly the Achilles heel for them, really.
07:05 If you look at the pure numbers on it, they are a top six championship side at home and
07:10 basically a bottom six championship side away.
07:12 And it's really hard to understand why that is the case.
07:16 And in terms of how they'll set up, they're pretty consistent.
07:20 It'll be a sort of a 4-2-2-2, sort of without the ball and more of a three diamond three
07:27 with it.
07:28 They build up in that kind of way and they are, you know, they're quite attractive.
07:34 I wouldn't say it's necessarily massively innovative what they try and do.
07:37 They try and essentially work an opening on either flank and then try with a massive diagonal
07:42 to work a crossing opportunity and play off that.
07:44 So if you can halt Norwich in those areas, then I think that there is success to be had
07:49 for you, as Blackburn found actually.
07:52 And yeah, I really don't know.
07:54 And it's funny because there's been a lot of debate around sort of Norwich fans, whether
07:57 they've been too negative or too entitled at home.
07:59 And actually, you look at their home record and it's been very, very good.
08:02 So that doesn't necessarily stack up with some of the discourse that's been around.
08:06 So yeah, I don't know, honestly, I don't know what it is.
08:10 But obviously the away form issue does put a lot of pressure on your home form.
08:14 And that means essentially that Norwich with six home games and six away games left are
08:18 basically going to have to win all their home games if they want to keep it this kind of
08:21 two points a game rate, which is going to be needed to get them in the top six.
08:24 So there's a lot of pressure on them.
08:26 VARCON is pretty consistent in the way that they play.
08:30 And I think to be fair, in the last few weeks, they've seen a little bit more success and
08:34 look a little bit more comfortable playing the way that he wants them to.
08:37 And that's, you know, I know when they came to the Stadium of Light in October, as you
08:40 mentioned, they've had a lot of injuries and they had a lot of people out.
08:44 They've got some key personnel back now.
08:45 And I think what we are seeing with this Norwich side is that they've got a very good starting
08:50 side.
08:51 Their depth is a little bit of an issue.
08:53 And I think when they're called upon, you know, even from the bench, I think you can
08:56 see a deterioration in their performance levels.
08:58 So that's kind of what I would say.
09:01 And yeah, as for on the road, your guess is as good as mine, really.
09:04 Well, it's not just Norwich that have got a much better home record than away.
09:08 Sunderland are pretty similar, actually.
09:10 Only won four games away from home this season out of 17.
09:14 Their home form a lot better, which is interesting because last season Sunderland were very good
09:18 away from home, particularly at the end of the season.
09:20 Yeah, same with Norwich.
09:21 Yeah, same with Norwich.
09:22 It was almost, sorry, it was almost Angus Gunn mentioned it in the weekend.
09:29 It was almost this time last year, as you said, it was their away form really that was
09:32 keeping them in touch with the playoffs.
09:34 This year it's the home form.
09:35 So it's really bizarre because, you know, we think about it.
09:38 It's the same pitch.
09:39 It's the same laws they're playing with.
09:40 I know it's a different ball, but it's kind of a league wide ball.
09:43 So there shouldn't really be anything that makes that so drastic.
09:47 But we see it in teams so commonly.
09:49 Yeah, they said their Sunderland got that win at Norwich end of last season.
09:54 I think it was around March time.
09:55 They got a 1-0 win with Abdullah Barre, scoring the only goal of the game.
09:58 That was kind of a kind of a platform which kind of allowed Sunderland to kick on and
10:02 then reach the playoffs towards the end of last season.
10:05 But you mentioned injuries there and one player that didn't play in the game back in October
10:09 was Josh Shard and you mentioned as well.
10:12 Just looking at his stats, very impressive.
10:15 14 championship games this season, 10 goals.
10:18 Since he's been back, it's seven goals in I think it's 10 games.
10:23 So obviously a huge boost to have him back and just how important has it been to have
10:26 him back and scoring those goals?
10:28 Yeah, he's averaging a goal at the moment every 89 minutes.
10:31 I think he's only completed three or four 90s across the whole season.
10:36 It's phenomenal really what he's been able to do.
10:38 And I think the scary thing about it is, and I spoke to him after Norwich beat Cardiff
10:44 at home, sorry, and he was essentially very open with the fact that he is not fully fit.
10:48 He is managing this ankle issue that he's got even now and it can be a bit day to day.
10:53 So he can wake up one day and be in lots of pain and not be able to do much in terms of
10:58 training and he can wake up the next day and feel absolutely fine.
11:01 So the reality is it may well depend how he wakes up on Saturday morning, how he plays.
11:06 But he's had a profound impact and I think he's really interesting.
11:10 And you look across the championship and you look at the goal scoring charts and all of
11:13 those type of things, there isn't what I would classify as a typical number nine in there.
11:17 I know Sunderland have had some issues with number nines across the season, but they're
11:21 all kind of goal scoring wide players and Adam Armstrong.
11:24 He is very conventional.
11:26 He's kind of a complete striker in that sense.
11:28 Good in the air, good with his back to goal, good in the box, good finisher.
11:32 He's really improved his movement in behind as well.
11:34 And this is kind of his first season playing as a nine.
11:37 He's kind of played out wide for Norwich, largely because obviously Teme Pukki was at
11:41 the club and whilst he was producing the goals and had the sort of credit in the bank that
11:45 he did here, it was always going to be very difficult for someone to kind of unseat him,
11:49 so to speak.
11:50 So he's had to be a little bit patient.
11:51 And I think you sense now that he's taking his opportunity.
11:55 And yeah, he is Norwich City's main threat.
11:57 If you stop him scoring, particularly with Jon Rowe out, as he is until April, then by
12:03 and large, not completely because they've got goals from other areas, but by and large,
12:06 you stop a main source of their goals, I would say.
12:09 Yeah, you mentioned Jonny Rowe there as well, a player that was going to come on too.
12:12 Norwich's top scorer this season.
12:14 He's out with a hamstring injury.
12:16 Yeah, yeah.
12:17 He's going to be out for some time.
12:18 He's going to miss Saturday's match.
12:20 But who are the other kind of key players in this Norwich side that some of the fans
12:24 will have to watch out for?
12:25 Yeah, we spoke about Sargent.
12:27 I think Borja Sainz, who plays on the left, is a Spanish winger.
12:31 He's been probably a little bit too inconsistent for my liking, but just capable of, you know,
12:36 one moment of quality, and we've seen it on a couple of occasions, a couple of bounce
12:39 passes, and he's put a shot in the top corner against Sheffield Wednesday more recently
12:44 as well at home.
12:46 So he's a player that can produce something from nothing, but he's a little bit fiery.
12:50 So I think he's quite easy to wind up and didn't have the best game, excuse me, against
12:55 Blackburn at the weekend.
12:57 Gabriel Sarra is, for me, one of the league's best progressive midfielders.
13:02 You look at kind of his chance creation statistics and his output as well.
13:06 Again, he's come off a little bit of a, by his standards, a little bit of a barren run.
13:10 He's not been too bad and, you know, he's got a very high bar.
13:13 I think David Wagner says he doesn't really drop below good.
13:18 He can sometimes be very good, but very rarely drops below good.
13:22 He's someone, again, that has real quality, both in terms of goals, but also in terms
13:26 of chance creation as well.
13:28 And then someone in really good form at the moment is Marcelino Nunez, a little bit of
13:31 an injury down for this weekend.
13:32 He limped out of their draw against Blackburn, scored a wonderful free kick in that game.
13:37 But someone who plays a little bit deeper and he's more of a kind of metronome almost.
13:42 He keeps them ticking rather than someone who is sort of at the top end of the pitch
13:45 creating opportunities.
13:47 But again, he asserts or allows Norwich to assert real control within games, particularly
13:52 when he drops between those two centre-backs and can kind of display the range of passing
13:56 that he has.
13:57 And he's, as I said, finds himself in a real purple patch at the moment, been a little
14:01 bit up and down since joining Norwich from South America.
14:04 So yeah, those are probably the primary names heading into this weekend.
14:09 But some honourable mentions, Christian Faschnacht is very capable of scoring a goal.
14:14 Ashley Barnes is in a good way at the moment as well.
14:17 There are a lot of Norwich players.
14:18 Jack Stacey is also in a good rhythm.
14:21 There's a lot of Norwich players who are in a good stretch of form at this moment in time
14:25 just over the last few weeks.
14:27 So yeah, I wish I could offer more kind of positivity from a Sunderland perspective,
14:33 but this does feel like quite a poor time to play Norwich at this moment in time.
14:38 Yeah.
14:39 Well, someone who hasn't been playing that I'm sure Sunderland fans will be interested
14:43 to know why is Danny Bart, who was voted Sunderland's player of the season last season.
14:50 He was happy to stay at Sunderland, but had a year left on his contract and was told that
14:55 he would be allowed to leave the club.
14:57 He then went to Norwich, who I think had some injuries at centre-back at the time, but he's
15:01 only made 10 championship appearances.
15:03 Only four of them have been starts.
15:06 And then looking at the team sheets, it seems like even when players are injured, Kenny
15:09 McLean has dropped back into centre-back, who is seen as a midfield player.
15:13 So why hasn't Bart been able to force his way into this Norwich side?
15:18 Yeah, and that's the exact question that a lot of Norwich fans have been wondering as
15:23 well.
15:24 I think there's a fair degree of being a player of the season in a side that were in the playoffs
15:27 last season.
15:28 There was a lot of excitement around him.
15:29 I think that's probably fair to say.
15:31 And obviously the mechanics of it, and you mapped it out there, Norwich lost to Andrew
15:34 O'Meara Amadele very, very late on deadline day to Nottingham Forest.
15:38 They moved quickly to sign Danny Bart, who's a player that Stuart Webber had a knowledge
15:43 and a relationship with from their time together at Wolves.
15:48 And yeah, it just, when all of the options have been fit, Shane Duffy, Ben Gibson, Grant
15:53 Hanley, Danny Bart, he's kind of been fourth choice in that sort of pecking order, really.
15:58 But even then, I mean, the last few weeks have documented, I mean, you kind of said
16:02 it, Ben Gibson dropped out with an injury and they've preferred Kenny McLean in there
16:07 because David Wagner likes to have a right-left kind of footed balance at the back in order
16:11 to kind of help their build-up and what they do on the ball.
16:14 And then on the right side, even Grant Hanley's come back from what was a pretty major Achilles
16:19 injury that kept him out basically from Easter last year till Christmas this year.
16:23 So about eight months really, all told.
16:27 And so they've had to manage him a little bit.
16:29 He dropped out a couple of weeks ago and they put in Jakob Sorensen, who's kind of a defensive
16:32 midfielder on the right side.
16:33 Danny Bart was reduced onto the bench.
16:35 We saw it again on Saturday.
16:36 Hanley, again, because of this kind of management cycle that they're in with him, signalled
16:41 that he wanted to come off.
16:43 Sorensen was the one that they pulled from the bench instead of Danny Bart.
16:46 So it's hard to say anything really other than David Wagner, for whatever reason, just
16:51 doesn't seem to be having him.
16:53 I think there's probably factors in that.
16:56 He was part, a very small part, but he was part of their poor run.
17:01 I think there's maybe some concerns around distribution as well and maybe even athleticism
17:06 at points.
17:07 They like to play with quite a high line when they can.
17:09 But that being said, the options that they do have aren't rapid and I wouldn't necessarily
17:13 say that he's any slower than any of them.
17:15 So yeah, and to be honest, when he has played, he's done okay.
17:19 So it is a head-scratcher really.
17:24 And yeah, pretty damning on him.
17:25 Obviously, his contract here is up at the end of the season.
17:28 I think it's very difficult to see any kind of outcome now that would lead to that getting
17:32 renewed or to be frank, for him wanting it to be renewed, it just hasn't worked out.
17:37 And it's a real shame because when he joined the club, as I said, there was a lot of, excitement's
17:44 maybe a bit strong, but definitely a lot of respect towards him and what he'd achieved
17:47 at Sunderland.
17:48 The fact that we haven't really seen him, I think, has been baffling throughout this
17:52 season.
17:53 Yeah, certainly a very important player for Sunderland last season, as kind of proved
17:57 by the fact that he was voted the fans player of the season.
17:59 So yes, it's strange to see that he hasn't kind of kicked on and been getting more game
18:04 time at Norwich.
18:05 But just on Sunderland, it's just interesting to kind of ask other people, other reporters
18:10 from the outside looking in, kind of what have you made of their season?
18:13 Have you seen much of this season aside from that game in October at the Stadium of Light?
18:18 Not huge amounts, to be completely honest.
18:21 I actually, and I said this to someone else yesterday, but I came away from the Stadium
18:27 of Light basically convinced that Sunderland would be a top six side because of the performance
18:32 that they produced, because of the players that they had.
18:35 I think even at that point, you could tell they were a little bit short in terms of a
18:38 number nine and that was obvious, but it didn't seem to matter that day against Norwich because
18:44 they were excellent.
18:45 And from what I have seen and saw, particularly under Tony Mowbray, I was always really infused
18:51 and excited to watch Sunderland play if they were ever on TV and there was an opportunity
18:55 to watch them, that there was that.
18:56 And I really like what they've done with young players.
18:59 And again, we could probably have a debate over whether Norwich have gone in one direction
19:03 with it, whether they've gone too far in the other, and you always need to find a balance.
19:07 But yeah, I was a little bit surprised to see Mowbray leave in the fashion that he did,
19:14 to see Mick Beal as the man who's parachuted in.
19:17 I think even externally, to me, that never really felt like a great fit, to be completely
19:24 honest, and particularly after everything that had happened at Rangers and the size
19:28 of Sunderland Football Club.
19:29 And it was clear from the initial reaction that the fans weren't having him.
19:32 And as we've discussed in terms of Wagner, if that's kind of the mood and the feeling,
19:38 it's hard to know where you go from there.
19:39 So yeah, I've always, you know, I wouldn't say I've got a soft spot or anything like
19:45 that, but I've always enjoyed watching Sunderland and always enjoyed games against Sunderland
19:50 and going to the Stamia Light, even though it's quite a trek up the A1 and whatnot.
19:54 But yeah, and obviously Norwich and Sunderland have a pre-existing relationship going back
19:58 to the Cup final all those years ago, and the friendly cup that the two sides play for
20:03 every season.
20:04 So yeah, I'm surprised, I will say finally, I'm just surprised how much their season's
20:10 kind of told, not told off, because it's still very much in it and a win at Carrow Road would
20:15 kind of put them back in the debate.
20:17 But I expected them to be maybe where West Brom are at this moment in time, after I left
20:23 the Stamia Light that day.
20:24 And I don't know, you're in a better place than me.
20:26 But it feels externally like a lot of that is through their own making, why perhaps they
20:30 aren't there.
20:31 Yeah, it feels definitely like they've regressed from that game in October.
20:35 And thinking back to that game, I remember speaking to Dan Neal, the Sunderland midfielder,
20:38 after the game, or it was maybe a few weeks after, and he was saying how much it felt
20:42 like the side had progressed playing Norwich, because when they played Norwich at the Stadium
20:46 of Light the season before in their first game back, the first season back in the Championship,
20:50 he said that he found that really tough.
20:52 He really felt the level had gone up, stepping up to the Championship.
20:55 But then the way that they were able to get the better of Norwich at the Stadium of Light
20:59 kind of showed to him that Sunderland were going in the right direction and they'd progressed
21:03 a lot in 12 months' time.
21:05 Whereas now, it seems like Sunderland have gone backwards and Norwich have improved under
21:09 Wagner, as you say.
21:11 So it is kind of interesting to see how both sides have kind of gone since that game back
21:16 in October.
21:17 But we usually just finish Connor by just asking our guests for a quick score prediction.
21:20 How do you think the game is going to go between Sunderland and Norwich on Saturday?
21:24 Yeah, it's hard to bet against Norwich at the moment, particularly at Cow Road, which
21:28 has been, as outlined, a bit of a fortress for them, to be honest.
21:32 And I think it is the place where even the players look at as the place where they need
21:36 to take their points.
21:38 I think this is going to be really tight.
21:40 I could basically see 2-1 either way or a 1-1 draw.
21:45 Obviously, I'm representing Norwich, so I'm going to swing that way and go for a 2-1 Norwich
21:49 win.
21:50 But as I said, I think it will be a very, as last year was, to be fair, I think it will
21:53 be a very tight contest.
21:56 There are similarities with the game last year, because I think Sunderland were about
21:59 seven points off the playoffs, kind of around this stage of the season again.
22:02 They're now eight points off the playoffs and really need a win to kind of keep their
22:05 season alive.
22:07 And I think after that Norwich game, Sunderland maybe only lost one more game all season before
22:12 getting into the playoffs.
22:13 So it is a big game for them.
22:15 They do have a kind of these kind of big matches where they have to pull out a result against
22:19 the better teams.
22:20 They can do it.
22:21 They've shown that previously.
22:22 But I think perhaps with the form that Norwich are in, it could be a step too far.
22:26 So I'll go for a 2-1 Norwich win.
22:29 But I think Sunderland have shown under Mike Dodds, under their interim manager, he said
22:33 last week he's not afraid to make bold decisions to go and try and win the game.
22:37 And Sunderland really do have to try and win the game if they've got really try and get
22:42 their kind of playoff aspirations back on track.
22:44 But I think Norwich might be too strong for them.
22:46 But we'll see how it plays out on Saturday.
22:49 So Connor, thanks a lot for joining me on the latest episode of the Raw podcast.
22:54 And if you like what we do here at the Raw podcast, please consider subscribing on our
22:58 YouTube channel, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts and leave a review.
23:04 And for all the latest SAFC news, you can head over to the SAFC section of the Sunderland
23:09 Echo website.
23:10 We'll have all the build up ahead of Saturday's match at Carrow Road.
23:14 And we'll also have all live updates, analysis and more from the game on Saturday, Sunderland
23:20 take on Norwich.
23:21 So once again, thanks a lot for listening to the Raw podcast.
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