Joe Nicholson is joined by James Batchelor from The Watford Way to preview Sunderland’s Championship match against Watford at Vicarage Road.
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00:00 Hello and welcome to the RAW podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo. We're back
00:26 for another preview podcast ahead of Sunderland's Championship match against Watford at Vicarage
00:32 Road. My name is Joe Nicholson and I'm joined by James Batchelor from the Watford Way podcast.
00:39 James how's things? I'm all good thank you very much. Yeah looking forward to the game
00:43 at the weekend. Not long now until the end of the season hoping to end on a positive
00:48 note so yes I'm all good thank you. Yeah two games to go for both sides starting with that
00:55 game on Saturday at Vicarage Road and big news coming out of Watford yesterday. We're
00:59 recording this on Thursday that they've appointed Tom Cleverley as their permanent head coach
01:06 now he was appointed as interim head coach last month. So what did you make of that decision?
01:11 Was it a surprise for Cleverley to get the job full-time? What did you make of that?
01:16 I think it was a surprise to see the announcement come yesterday afternoon. I had a gut feeling
01:20 that we might hear from the club prior to the end of the season and of course this is
01:25 Watford's last home game before this season concludes. So I think it's actually good timing
01:29 from a PR perspective to announce Cleverley before the final home game so he gets a good
01:34 ovation from the crowd and hopefully some added motivation for the players as well because
01:39 now they know who the manager will be next season. Hopefully that will motivate them
01:44 for the final couple of games because both sides Sunderland and Watford you could argue
01:48 we're both on the beach now really. We're away from any fear of relegation. So yeah
01:54 I think from the Watford players perspective as well it adds some motivation and something
01:58 to play for in these final couple of games. But yeah a lot of Watford fans are delighted
02:03 with the news, me included. Tom Cleverley has played over half of his professional career
02:08 games at Watford as captain of the club during our promotion back to the Premier League back
02:12 in 2021 and is an all-round top professional. He's managed the under-18s at the start of
02:17 the season as well. He got the interim job after Valerian Ismail was sacked and as you
02:22 mentioned he's just been appointed as the full-time head coach. So my reaction is delighted
02:27 and yes lovely bloke as well which is always nice. So yeah really happy.
02:33 As you mentioned there just both sides on paper not really much to play for. There's
02:37 three points separating the two sides. Sunderland in 13th, Watford three points behind them
02:43 in 15th. So neither of them are going to go up, neither of them are going to go down.
02:47 So as you say there probably from a PR perspective a good chance to appoint Cleverley for their
02:52 final home game of the season. It sounds like from what you're saying there that he is a
02:56 popular appointment. Probably you could maybe see it as a bit of a risk. He's still only
03:00 34 and only retired didn't he last summer from actually being a player. But it seems
03:04 like he's held very highly at Watford. Sunderland's interim boss Mike Dodds today described him
03:09 as a legend which I thought was a strong word to use. But is that how highly he's regarded
03:14 at Watford?
03:15 I would say legend status is probably the correct word to use actually. He's not had
03:21 you know the most successful career at Watford in terms of going on to achieve great things.
03:24 But he was part of the squad that reached the FA Cup final against Manchester City back
03:29 in 2019. As I mentioned earlier he was also part of the 2021 promotion squad that happened
03:35 during that Covid lockdown season. And as I said he's an all-round top professional
03:39 as well. He knows the club. He's captain of the club. And a lot of the players you'll
03:43 see on Saturday afternoon he actually played with last season himself as well which I think
03:47 is an added bonus from that perspective as well. So yeah I would agree with that. I think
03:53 most Watford fans including myself yeah we would class Tom Cleverley as a Watford legend.
04:00 Well since he's taken charge as we said he was appointed interim head coach back in
04:04 March. He's overseen seven games. One win one defeat and five draws I think it is quite
04:09 a few nil nils in there. So what has he changed and how have Watford been playing under Cleverley?
04:17 So I think the main thing he's changed and the main thing you'll probably notice as a
04:21 reporter is the change of system. Under Valerian Ismail we played a 4-3-3 which is quite common.
04:27 You'll find most teams kind of play in that system now. But what Cleverley's done is he
04:31 obviously highlighted an issue with the Watford defence. He's seen that there's been an issue
04:36 with conceding goals and he's gone to a back five. So you now play three centre backs and
04:41 then two wing backs and then we play the three in midfield and the two up top. So yeah the
04:46 change of system will be more evident defensively. I think Watford have definitely looked more
04:50 solid under Tom Cleverley. We have conceded quite a few late goals unfortunately. Maybe
04:56 a few wins we should have had that haven't quite happened. But yeah that's the main thing
05:01 Tom Cleverley's changed. He's come in, changed the system to that five-a-little back. And
05:05 I think he's just instilled the basics really in football. Having a good work ethic, running
05:10 for each other, leadership on the pitch, being vocal. The basics really that most football
05:16 players should do on a football pitch. He's kind of instilled that into the Watford team.
05:20 I think that represents Cleverley as a player as well. I think when you talk about Tom Cleverley's
05:24 professional career you describe him perhaps as a workhorse in midfield. And that's certainly
05:30 what we've seen from the Watford team since he's taken over. So it's not the most prettiest
05:34 of football. Don't expect tiki-taka football from us. But yeah defensively I would say
05:38 we're looking a lot more solid which is definitely good to see.
05:44 As you mentioned he replaced Valerio Ismael in March. The last time Sunderland would have
05:48 seen Watford was back in October with Sunderland winning 2-0 at the Stadium of Light. I think
05:55 it was the day before the game actually that Watford released a statement and I think a
06:00 lot of people saw the statement and thought well he's been sacked. But he actually got
06:02 offered a contract extension before that game at the Stadium of Light. I remember after
06:08 the game at the Stadium of Light Ismael took a long time to come out for his post-match
06:12 press conference. He was clearly having a long discussion with the squad. So are you
06:16 able to describe how things kind of unravelled there from getting that new deal in October,
06:22 that game against Sunderland back in October and then him then leaving the club in I think
06:26 it was around March time, February time?
06:29 Yeah well the Sunderland game actually as you mentioned it was a 2-0 defeat for Watford.
06:33 And that actually kind of acted as the catalyst for actually going on quite a good run of
06:37 form up until Christmas after that game. Valerio Ismael came out and mentioned that the squad
06:42 had a frank discussion with each other in the dressing room. He mentioned he took a
06:45 while to come out to his post-match press conference. And that actually did act as a
06:49 catalyst for quite a decent run of form and Watford towards the Christmas period were
06:53 only three or four points away from them top six positions. Now I myself was getting quite
06:58 excited. But yeah it all kind of went a little bit wrong. You mentioned the contract extension
07:04 decision. Usually when you hear a statement from Watford on Sky Sports News for example
07:08 you expect it to be a managerial sack in. So when we did hear of his extension it was
07:13 certainly a surprise. I wouldn't say I agreed with the decision because when he came in
07:18 during the summer he actually agreed a two-year deal. So I was expecting maybe him to see
07:23 out that first year, reassess his situation in the summer and then offer him an extension.
07:29 But Watford clearly felt at the time they could work with Ismael. They clearly felt
07:32 there was a good working relationship there between Gino Pozzo, our owner, and Ismael.
07:38 And they clearly felt he warranted the extension. Now obviously in hindsight that was maybe
07:42 the wrong decision because they since sacked him in March. But yeah it did come as a surprise.
07:47 I know a few Watford fans weren't actually that happy. But the game did act as a catalyst
07:53 for a good run of form. And yeah just prior to Christmas, after the Sunderland game, Watford
07:57 were quite close to them player positions. So yeah there were positives to that. But
08:02 yeah as I said in hindsight it was sacked in March. So clearly was the wrong decision
08:08 for Watford to make.
08:11 Obviously now there's just two games to play this season and most championship clubs, Sunderland
08:15 included, will be expecting next season to have another push for at least a playoff place.
08:20 So I'm assuming under Cleverley the aims will be, and with the owners being pretty ruthless
08:25 as they are, will be to aim for the playoffs next season?
08:29 Yes, I would say so. I think for Watford fans we have kind of readjusted our expectations.
08:36 I think that we're all expecting Cleverley hopefully to be here for a more long-term
08:41 project looking two to three years in the future. So I think yes a playoff chase would
08:46 be really, really nice. And we did get close to that at times this season. But I think
08:51 under Tom Cleverley we're just looking for some stability and some good recruitment actually
08:55 in the summer. But yeah overall I think the biggest aim of all is to try and get into
09:01 the player positions for both Sunderland and Watford of course. But for me I'm just looking
09:05 for a solid season, a top 10 finish perhaps next year. And yeah just getting some good
09:10 characters around the squad and continuing to build on actually quite a good atmosphere
09:15 at the club at the moment since Cleverley's come in.
09:17 I was just wondering as well, and this may still sting you, but going back to last season
09:23 when the club appointed Rob Edwards and he was there for I think about 10 games. I remember
09:27 being at I think the Sunderland game was actually his last game before he got sacked. It was
09:30 a two-all draw at Vicarage Road the last time Sunderland were there. And then he was sacked
09:36 shortly after that and he's then gone on obviously to Luton and has got them promoted.
09:39 Oh don't remind me Joe.
09:41 I'm just wondering kind of what Watford fans, what are their view on that now after kind
09:48 of how that played out and where Watford have gone since then and where Rob Edwards is now
09:52 with Luton?
09:53 There's definitely some, I don't know quite what the right word is here, but I think under,
10:01 I think you could actually see some similarities between where we are now with Cleverley and
10:05 Rob Edwards. We brought Rob Edwards in from Forest Green Rovers, he had a great season
10:08 with them, took the step up to Watford. And what we had initially under Rob Edwards was
10:13 again quite a good atmosphere around the club. It was a young English manager, again quite
10:18 similar to Tom Cleverley. And we felt as fans we were moving in the right direction at that
10:24 time. Everyone it seemed was on the same page. And then as you say, I think it was six or
10:30 seven games even, he got sacked, moved to Watford's biggest rivals in Luton town, got
10:36 them promoted and got them in a fighting chance of staying in the Premier League this season.
10:41 So I think it's clear to everyone that a mistake was made there. There was a lot of fallout
10:48 from the decision to sack Rob Edwards. There was a lot of Geno out protests, a lot of protests
10:53 against the ownership, against Scott Duxbury, our CEO. So yeah, last season definitely was
10:59 one of the worst I've seen in terms of atmosphere around the club. And I think the club probably
11:04 will admit, not publicly, but I'm sure internally they will know they made a mistake by sacking
11:11 Rob Edwards. But I do hope now with Cleverley, again, a young English manager, we can get
11:17 back on that right track, with a really nice, positive, friendly atmosphere around the club.
11:22 And yeah, hopefully move right back in a good positive direction. But talking about Luton
11:28 briefly, I have to say fair play. Yes, I resent them as our fiercest rivals. But he's done
11:35 a cracking job there on a very limited budget actually as well. So yeah, for me, fair play
11:40 to Rob Edwards. Obviously, I don't wish him the best anymore. But yeah, he's certainly
11:45 done a very good job over in Luton.
11:49 Looking back to this weekend's game, you mentioned there about the atmosphere with Cleverley
11:54 and this weekend's game will be what was the last home game of the season. So what is the
11:58 atmosphere going to be like? Obviously, as we've said before, both sides don't have much
12:02 to play for. But what will the atmosphere be like at Vicarage Road on Saturday?
12:06 I'm expecting a really good atmosphere, actually. I don't know how many tickets we've sold,
12:10 but we've had pretty good attendances this season for where we are on the table. And
12:15 yeah, I'm expecting a really positive, hopefully uplifting atmosphere. Obviously, Tom Cleverley,
12:20 you mentioned earlier, just recently been announced as the full-time manager. So I'm
12:24 sure just prior to kickoff, he'll get a great announcement on the pitch by our stadium announcer.
12:30 And as I said, that should give the players something to play for. A lot of these players
12:33 who haven't formed maybe up to the standards they should have this season will be playing
12:38 for their Watford careers and their Watford future at the club. Tom Cleverley is now the
12:43 confirmed manager. They know who their manager will be next season. So I think out of the
12:48 two teams, I would say the Watford players certainly should have the edge in this game
12:53 in terms of motivation. So yeah, I'm hoping we'll go and get the win. Tom Cleverley is
12:58 yet to win at Vicarage Road in his tenure as interim head coach and full-time head coach,
13:03 of course. So he's eagerly awaiting that first home victory. So yeah, hopefully that will
13:08 come on Saturday afternoon.
13:10 Yeah, as you say, that should act as more of a motivator really then for Watford with
13:15 Cleverley, then knowing that Cleverley is going to be in charge next season. Looking
13:20 at the Watford squad this season compared to last season, I remember watching Watford
13:25 and they looked quite heavily reliant on Jal Pedro, who was obviously sold to Brighton
13:30 last summer. And it seems like they've still got a few players there that were there when
13:35 they were in the Premier League. But who are the main players that Sunderland will need
13:39 to watch out for on Saturday?
13:40 Yeah, there's a few. There's probably three I'll highlight here for you today. So you've
13:44 got Yassir Esprit, who's our young Colombian wonder kid. Six goals, six assists, I believe,
13:50 in the championship so far this season. And he's kind of taken on, you mentioned Jal Pedro,
13:54 he's taken on that role of being Watford's creative outlet. There's so many fantastic
14:00 passes he does. He's got that low centre of gravity he can turn away from his man as well.
14:05 So certainly from an attacking perspective, Yassir Esprit is our main threat to watch
14:10 out for. Defensively, Wesley Hught plays on the left side of them, three defenders.
14:16 He's a class player. Obviously, I'm sure you might know him from Southampton during his
14:19 time in the Premier League. Then he's come to Watford, kind of revitalised his career
14:23 back in England. And he's certainly been our more consistent player this season. And actually,
14:28 they've not announced it yet, but he probably will win Watford's player of the season this
14:32 year. So Wesley Hught from a defensive standpoint is one to look out for. And if he's fit and
14:36 available, Tom Dele Pesciuri in midfield. A bit of a box-to-box midfielder. Really,
14:42 really exciting prospect. He joined Watford a few years ago from Manchester City's academy.
14:47 Had some trouble with injuries. He was out for a few months of injury a couple of times
14:52 actually, so he's really struggled with that. But this has been really his breakout, big
14:56 breakout season at Watford. And he's been really a consistent first team player throughout
15:01 the entire of this season. His dribbling ability, his ball carrying ability going forward as
15:06 well is superb to watch. So those are the three key players I'd highlight. You've got
15:10 Yasser Esfahia, Tom Dele Pesciuri in midfield, and then Wesley Hught defensively is really
15:16 consistent. So yeah, those are the three players I'd highlight from a Watford perspective going
15:21 into this weekend.
15:22 Yeah, I was just reading before that Dele Pesciuri, he missed the whole game, didn't
15:27 he, with an injury last weekend. So yeah, we're not sure if he's going to be back or
15:32 not. I'm sure Cleverley will provide an update when he speaks to the media. But you were
15:37 saying earlier that Cleverley's kind of switched to this back five system. So how do you think
15:42 they will approach the game against Sunderland in terms of Watford are the home team, they'll
15:47 probably be expected to be maybe a bit more on the front foot. But as you said, he's tried
15:51 to tighten things up at the back by going to this back five. So how do you think he
15:55 will approach the game?
15:56 Yeah, it's an interesting one because actually during his time as under-18 head coach, he
16:01 played a completely different system. He played in that 4-3-3 system, I believe, during his
16:06 time as the under-18s coach. And as I said, he'd come in, you know, tried to solidify
16:10 this Watford team. And yeah, as I mentioned earlier, there's really nothing for either
16:15 team to play for. Watford desperately need that home win. We've not won at home in a
16:19 championship since I believe late November, which has been really hard for me to watch
16:24 as the season ticket holder going into the game. So I think from a Watford perspective,
16:28 potentially we may see a change of system going back to the back four, potentially.
16:34 You know, looking ahead longer terms next season, he might want to try a few different
16:38 systems out. We'll have to wait and see. But yeah, certainly, you know, he may look to
16:42 stick with the back five because that's what he's implemented since he's come in. But equally,
16:47 you know, wanting to get that home victory, he might look to go more attacking and go
16:50 for that 4-3-3 system, which is more familiar to what the players have been, you know, utilising
16:56 under Ismail this season.
16:58 And just finally, we usually just ask our guests to say, have you seen much of Sunderland
17:04 this season? Just to kind of get an outside perspective looking in, what have you made
17:09 of Sunderland's season? How do you think they will match up against Watford on Saturday?
17:14 Yes, Sunderland, I find to be quite an interesting team because obviously being a Watford fan,
17:18 I don't watch too many Sunderland games, but you certainly have a few players that I really
17:23 like. Dan Ballard at the back is a player who I really highly rate, actually. I play
17:28 football manager quite a lot and Dan Ballard is always a sign that I'll make my football
17:32 manager say. Callum Stiles as well is a player Watford are actually linked with for our left
17:38 back position in the summer transfer window initially. And obviously he's now with you
17:41 guys. So Callum Stiles is a player I really like. And then you've got JB Bellingham, Jack
17:46 Clarke. So I think for me, looking at Sunderland, initially it looked like you might be in that
17:50 flow of race and then you seem to have tailed off towards the end of the season for whatever
17:56 reason. You could maybe enlighten me a little bit more into that. But yeah, I think you
18:00 have the makings of a pretty good squad. They've got a few promising young players. Hopefully
18:04 you can keep hold of them in this summer transfer window. And yeah, Jack Clarke going forward
18:09 again, really talented player. JB Bellingham, of course, is a very high profile family member
18:14 playing over in Real Madrid. And yeah, as I mentioned, Dan Ballard at the back seems
18:18 really solid to me. So yeah, no complaints. I think Sunderland are a pretty good team
18:23 and I'm sure it will be a tough test for this weekend. I'm just baffled as to why your form
18:29 has dropped off really.
18:31 Well, I think a lot of Sunderland fans will know you can probably link it back to when
18:35 Tony Mowbray left the club. Not that it was all going swimmingly perfectly when Tony Mowbray
18:40 was in charge, but that decision to sack him in December and not really have a replacement
18:45 lined up was kind of where Sunderland's season started to derail from competing for those
18:51 playoff spots and then fading away quite bad in the second half of the season. And there's
18:56 probably some similarities you could draw between the two clubs in terms of they probably
18:59 had aspirations of being in the top six at the start of the season and they've both changed
19:04 their manager and it's just not quite worked out. And Sunderland, as you mentioned, have
19:08 a lot of young players. Certainly if you're playing football manager, as you have been,
19:12 that'd be a very good side to pick there because I'm sure the players will have a lot of potential
19:16 in there and that will be the hope in real life that those players can fulfil that potential
19:20 and in a year's time, two years' time, they could be a really strong championship team
19:25 or even going into next season if they can keep hold of those. So that is certainly the
19:29 aim at Sunderland and we'll see if they can pull that off next season.
19:34 But James, just before you go, we usually ask our guests just to have a quick score
19:40 prediction. How do you think the game is going to go on Saturday at Vicarage Road?
19:44 Well, I do apologise to all the Sunderland viewers listening, but I do have to back Tom
19:50 Cleverley and Watford. So I'm going to go with a 2-0 Watford victory, the first home
19:56 win under Tom Cleverley at Vicarage Road. And I'm going to go with Yassir Spreer to
20:00 get both goals at Vicarage Road this weekend. So yeah, 2-0 win to the Golden Boys for me.
20:07 Once again, I do apologise.
20:08 No, no, I completely understand you going for a Watford win. It's interesting from
20:13 a Sunderland point of view because their better results recently have actually been away from
20:17 home. So they were beaten 1-0 by Millwall at home last weekend and haven't won at home
20:22 for six games now, I think it is. But away from home, their last away game, they won
20:27 1-0 at West Brom, although they weren't playing great before a red card just before half-time
20:32 for West Brom, which turned the game. Before that, they got a goalless draw away at Leeds.
20:36 So two good away performances against good sides. So Sunderland have been better on the
20:40 road in recent weeks, which makes me think at the minute they've been better up setting
20:46 up with wing-backs as well, like Watford have been doing. Setting up with the back five
20:51 and kind of soaking up more pressure away from home and then hitting teams on the break.
20:54 That suited them a little bit more compared to when they've been at home and the pressure's
20:59 been on them to break a team down, as was the case against Millwall last weekend. And
21:03 then they were hit on the break. So I think playing away could suit Sunderland. But as
21:08 you mentioned before, maybe Watford's players have a little bit more motivation at this
21:12 stage of the season with Cleverley being appointed. It's their last home game. So I'm going to
21:16 go for a 1-1 draw for the game on Saturday between Sunderland and Watford.
21:22 But James, thanks a lot for joining me on the latest episode of the Raw podcast. Sunderland's
21:27 interim boss Mike Dodds spoke to the media earlier on Thursday. So you can head over
21:32 to the SAC section of the Sunderland Echo website to find his thoughts and more build-up
21:38 ahead of Saturday's match. So once again, thanks a lot for listening to the Raw podcast.
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