Are Cavaliers Biggest Threat to the Celtics in the Playoffs? | Garden Report
Bobby Manning welcomes Justin Rowan from the Chase Down Podcast to the Garden Report to recap the Celtics' 22-point fourth quarter collapse in Cleveland that ended Boston's 11 game win streak on Tuesday.
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This episode of the Garden Report is brought to you by:
Get in on the excitement with PrizePicks, America’s No. 1 Fantasy Sports App, where you can turn your hoops knowledge into serious cash. Download the app today and use code CLNS for a first deposit match up to $100! Pick more. Pick less. It’s that Easy!
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Football season may be over, but the action on the floor is heating up. Whether it’s Tournament Season or the fight for playoff homecourt, there’s no shortage of high stakes basketball moments this time of year. Quick withdrawals, easy gameplay and an enormous selection of players and stat types are what make PrizePicks the #1 daily fantasy sports app!
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Transcript
00:00 Hey, Bobby Manning here. Welcome to a Wednesday edition of the Garden Report here with Justin
00:09 Rowan after another fun Celtics-Cavs matchup. And I know you're going to love it, Justin.
00:19 I know you probably loved it last night. But we spoke early yesterday afternoon and you
00:25 weren't feeling great about their chances going into this one. So pleasant surprise
00:29 for you. An unpleasant surprise for Celtics fans who watched this game into the early
00:34 portion of the fourth quarter thinking it was going to be another step in this parade
00:38 of blowouts. And that's what it was with about nine minutes to go here, a 20-point game.
00:45 You saw a combination of an out-of-this-world offensive explosion by the Cavs and really
00:53 this offensive blow by Boston that you hadn't seen all year. I mean, I pulled up the fourth
00:58 quarter shot chart once the game was done. It was shocking to see they didn't make a
01:02 single jump shot in the fourth quarter of the Celtics. Other than just that little flip
01:07 shot by Portizingas. I think it was over Nyanga, which was a tough shot in and of itself. So
01:13 this is a wacky one. I think a lot of people are looking at it, at least from a Boston
01:18 standpoint, saying a little bit of an aberration. You know how this one ended here. Not really
01:24 a panic button kind of lush yet, especially after 11 straight wins. But it wasn't pretty.
01:30 And the Cavs needed this, as you just said to me off the air. So they can have it, I
01:36 guess for now. But it does raise, if you're the Celtics here and in this matchup, as I'm
01:41 sure we'll get into, concerns about some past issues with the team that I think are still
01:49 holding a lot of Celtics observers back from picking what obviously looks like the best
01:53 team in the NBA from being that slam dunk favorite is champion this year. So where do
01:59 you start with this one? It was it was a weird one. I'm going to start by making fun of you
02:03 guys. I'm going to make fun of you guys a little bit and not for the reason you think
02:07 anyone that's overreacting to this game, I think is insane. Anyone that is being like,
02:13 oh, you know, like the crunch time kind of stuff. Honestly, it makes me feel a little
02:16 bit better because that kind of stuff comes up for the Cavs fairly frequently. And when
02:21 you see it happen to a team that's as good as the Boston Celtics, like it's just kind
02:25 of a reminder that, oh, you know, it's not just always picking on the low markets. It
02:29 happens to everybody. The Cavs probably won that game because of the injuries that they
02:35 had. Realistically, I don't think Boston came out with as much focus as they normally would,
02:40 especially for a national TV game coming off a big win. No Donovan Mitchell. You know,
02:45 Evan Mobley gets hurt in the third. They go up by 22. You're feeling comfortable and you
02:50 take your foot off the gas. That's the way what a what a Cavaliers injury on a dunk.
02:57 You know what? And I can't. It's just been that way this year. I can't even like, you
03:02 know, someone commented, like, how how can that happen on an open dunk? I can't really
03:07 talk because I tore my Achilles. I was just going to say, I'm all the Cavs injuries. I
03:12 see a crutch behind you. Yeah, I'm currently battling through a torn Achilles right now.
03:17 So my basketball career is behind me. But yeah, like, honestly, like this kind of stuff
03:22 happens like it's funny because I feel like the Cavs were coming off a loss where this
03:28 exact same thing occurred, where, you know, they're fired up.
03:31 They're going to play the Knicks, even though the Knicks are shorthanded. Jalen Brunson
03:34 gets hurt on the first shot of the game and then the place just goes flat. Like the team
03:39 loses all energy. They get out to a halftime lead, but they think, okay, like we've kind
03:44 of got this one in the bag and they talked about it after the game. It was a parallel
03:48 to what happened with Boston. And you listen to the interviews with the Celtics players
03:52 after the game. They understand that this was them beating themselves more than the
03:56 Cavs credit to Cleveland for, you know, competing, not quitting, taking advantage of the opportunity.
04:02 But the door was open by the Celtics. And I don't think that this is something you can
04:06 take like a macro takeaway from because you're not going to be playing in these type of situations
04:11 when you get to the postseason. So I think anyone that's kind of overreacting to this,
04:17 all due respect, but you're being dorks about it. This Boston Celtics team is the best team
04:21 in the NDA. And frankly, the expectation should be that this team is going to be hosting the
04:27 Larry O'Brien trophy come June.
04:29 Yeah. And you look at the matchups in the East, they're starting to dwindle in terms
04:34 of the stuff that scares you here. And I've said for a while that I do think the Celtics
04:37 are going to win the East. But, you know, I've long had an interest in the Cavs as a
04:45 fellow contender here. And, you know, it didn't start great this year. Injury is part of that,
04:49 as you mentioned. But they explode in the twenty twenty four here, emerges that real
04:54 two seed contender alongside Milwaukee. And they competed well in those December games
05:01 at the garden there. It was still a period where the Celtics just had that late separation
05:06 in them in those games and looked a level above them. But in this game, I think you
05:12 saw it go back to some of those matchups we saw early last year and again, completely
05:16 different team, even in this one. Porzingis made a big difference in the touches. He did
05:21 get down the stretch to pass the holiday back door. The finish I mentioned, the little hook
05:26 shot that was their only like shot beyond the rim that they made in that fourth quarter
05:31 and then the transition and one which easily could have won the game. So that's still a
05:36 real difference here. But man, you look at like the last couple of possessions, especially
05:42 the way the Cavaliers are into the bodies, the way they're navigating the screens out
05:46 there. I love the way JB used the Angels kind of roving around the rim away from Cornette
05:52 early in the fourth. I thought that was a big reason the game changed early in that
05:56 period. The Celtics just couldn't get to the rim there with too many guys clogging it up.
06:01 So they're a real deal defense and you know, they had a bad matchup in the playoffs last
06:07 year against the next bunch of stuff went wrong there. But if they can find a way into
06:11 a series and some close games with the Celtics, that's the tough part, right? Because the
06:16 Celtics are just kind of running away from everybody in a lot of these games. If you
06:19 can get it down to that crunch time, as you mentioned, I was one of the people who looked
06:24 at the crunch time stats, you know, 18 and nine ton of wins this year, huge net rating
06:29 and said, all right, they figured it out. But credit to Chris Forsberg over at NBC who
06:34 took a deeper dive at it and found four and six in the last minute of one point games,
06:39 two and five in the last 10 seconds of one point games, which is tied for 24th. And this
06:45 being the latest loss there, Tatum's one of six in those situations. And it feels like
06:51 he just kind of automatically gets the ball each time in those scenarios. So I'm weighing
06:55 in this one. I'm not panicking about the collapse. It was obviously an aberration when Dean Wade
06:59 starts raining down from three, but that crunch time finish in the last minute or two, that
07:04 wasn't pretty for the offense and the Cavaliers really made them stagnant.
07:08 Yeah. And, and there's some parallels there. Like I think one of the hurdles that the Cavs
07:12 need to overcome and you know, you see it in some games, but you don't see it in all
07:16 them is when it gets to crunch time, making sure you're still moving the offense, that
07:21 guys are going off ball, that even if like the end result is going to be kind of a one
07:26 on one possession, you want to coming off an action where guys, you know, attacking
07:30 a destabilized defense and, and making them work. I, I understand the tendency for teams
07:36 to go a little more isolation heavy in the clutch because there's less likelihood of
07:41 a turnover that goes for, you know, two points the other way and the whole variety of factors.
07:46 But that's always one of the toughest things when you're talking about you know, a team
07:51 like the Celtics who was young and has continued to kind of have a lot of that internal growth
07:55 along with the very shrewd moves they've made from team building standpoint. And then the
07:59 Cavs who are trying to go on that same path is, you know, you're always going to fall
08:04 on some of those old habits when it's high pressure moments and when it's in the clutch
08:10 and you just hope that, you know, over a larger sample that those instances become less and
08:15 less frequent. And, um, you know, I'm ultimately not really worried about it, but with Boston,
08:21 but yeah, I feel like, you know, I feel like the Cavs could at least be competitive in
08:25 a series and not get outclassed like they did against the next.
08:28 To me, that's the biggest goal is winning a round of the playoffs and then showing you
08:33 belong against these top teams. Cause if that's the case and you lose, let's say six competitive
08:39 games and you, you, you steal a couple and you, but you feel good like you're there.
08:45 You can say, okay, well, you know, Evan Mobley is still 22 years old. There is 23, a coral
08:50 23. We have a first round pick. We have our mid-level exception. We have avenues to get
08:54 better. Jared Allen's 25. Like we, we can take these minor steps towards becoming a
09:02 contender through our internal growth and some of the flexibility that we have.
09:05 If you get completely outclassed, that's when those existential questions come in about,
09:10 oh, does the two big lineup work? Does the two guard lineup work like all that kind of
09:14 stuff, right? Like that, that to me, and honestly, it's my biggest fear right now is that, you
09:20 know, with Mitchell and Mobley missing some serious time here is that they're just not
09:24 going to get a chance to be healthy at any point of the season and develop that kind
09:29 of second nature chemistry that you need to execute at that high level when you get to
09:34 the playoffs.
09:35 Yeah. And that was the most shocking thing about this one is, you know, once Mobley goes
09:40 down and you think you're going to have that chance to separate late and maintain that
09:44 lead. And like you said earlier, that's probably the biggest reason they slipped up a bit there.
09:49 Yeah. Joe being Joe, you know, it didn't call in timeouts.
09:52 Seriously, like the Cavs have done the same thing.
09:54 Didn't get the starters back in.
09:55 Cavs have done the same thing. Like you look at their record, they're 15 and 18 against
09:59 teams above 500. But if you look at like cleaning the glass against top 10 teams in net rating,
10:05 they're actually fifth. Then you go or I think they're actually fourth after last night.
10:10 But then you go to the middle 10, they go down to ninth. You go to the bottom 10. It's
10:14 13. They played down to their competition. And that 15 and 18 record is skewed by four
10:20 losses against the Knicks without the Knicks to against Philly without him. Beat. They
10:25 beat Philly with them. Beat without Donovan Mitchell in Philadelphia earlier the year.
10:29 But then they drop two against the shorthanded team and then they lose to Miami without Bam
10:34 and Tyler Hero. You win those four games and you take care of business and don't come out
10:38 flat in those games. All of a sudden, you know, you have a 19 and 14 record against
10:44 winning teams and you look a whole lot better. Right. So that's one of those things where
10:48 when the Cavs are at their best, they win because of how hard they play in the way they
10:53 execute. Like you talk about what they're able to do defensively. They don't have elite
10:57 defensive personnel at every single position, but Garland competes hard on the defensive
11:02 end. Mitchell has committed to that end. Max Spruce has taken strides forward. And then
11:06 you have, you know, guys like Dean Wade, who's a stout defender that contributes. George
11:11 Nyang plays good positional defense. Harris Levert is committed to that end. Mobley and
11:15 Allen, Isaac O'Connor, obviously those are kind of your, your best defenders, but it's
11:19 everyone else that commits and does their part when they're not playing hard and they
11:25 think, oh, we're just going to out talent teams.
11:27 They don't have the talent to get away with that in today's NBA. So I think that's just
11:32 kind of one of those learning curve things that I'm interested to keep an eye on. But
11:36 you know, when you're shorthanded, you don't get lulled into that sense of security. Like
11:41 we're just going out talent team. So I think that along with an easy schedule, help the
11:45 Cavs survive the Mobley and Mitchell injury. We'll see if they're Mobley and Garland injury,
11:51 I should say, but we'll see if, you know, they're able to play hard and kind of stay
11:56 afloat in, in the stretch without two of their core four again.
11:59 Yeah. And at least projecting out to play off basketball, this had that kind of feel
12:04 to it. They allowed some real physicality late. Like I keep mentioning that poor Zingas
12:09 play in the end. They're just incredibly physical on that play, able to bother poor Zingas and
12:14 he still somehow threw it up over his head and then somehow I love the mix of defensive
12:18 looks. They threw a Boston there. You know, you had Allen switching out sometimes staying
12:22 with Tatum on that little post leaner. I thought that was a good start for them down the stretch.
12:27 They just piled them up, you know, whether it was, you know, having that five man kind
12:31 of show up on the screen and, you know, not really let poor Zingas get into the post a
12:36 lot of times like white, he threw like up a little like lefty layup hook that missed
12:41 and you know, he got slowed down on that drive just cause the guy around the screen kind
12:45 of came up and showed a little bit in that spot, showed some doubles, the last possession
12:49 on Tatum, really good stuff, especially when he has Garland lined up like that. And, you
12:55 know, it was a controversial finish. The last two minute report did just come out about
13:00 an hour ago and they confirmed the challenge, the successful challenge there that said no
13:06 foul on Garland on that spot. And, you know, jump ball, correct call in that spot as well
13:13 as the time expiring on the 0.7 off the tip off there. So there was no time to call a
13:19 time out. So everything correct down the stretch there, except for the Tatum goaltending call
13:23 was like two minutes left on Garland's missed free throw. So the only thing that went against
13:28 or the only thing that went wrong from that last two minutes there was against the Cavs,
13:34 you know, went against the Cavs. So yeah, nothing really there to complain about from
13:39 an officiating standpoint. I know some people were mad that the poor Zingas put back, wasn't
13:44 allowed to follow through there, but there wasn't going to be enough time.
13:47 Yeah. And teams back of the room, right. The, yeah, the, the, the clock, you know, expired
13:53 it's stopped before he left his hands and you know, you stop playing after the whistle
13:57 goes right when you get the whistle and Garland goes, everyone turns it and you look at what
14:01 happens. Right. So I totally get that. I will say one thing I've really enjoyed it and I've
14:09 noticed it, you know, consistently since the all-star break is officials are allowing people
14:14 to be more physical defensively. I think you're almost seeing like a ramp up the playoff style
14:18 basketball and, and scoring has been down across the league. I was a little bit of a
14:24 follow to that all-star conversation, just the way the offense was running wild.
14:29 And here's the thing. That is all I want to see. I want defenders to be entitled to their
14:34 space to be allowed to be a little more physical, like a FIBA style. That's all that's needed.
14:39 Like I've seen people say, get rid of the corner three, raise the rim, like all these
14:42 like wacky gimmick type crap. I don't want that. Like, I don't want to change the, how
14:51 basketball looks to try to artificially bring down scoring. Like the offensive players are
14:56 so talented. The teams are so talented across the league. You're not going to be able to
15:00 completely nerf scoring to like where it was in the early two thousands when they first,
15:05 you know, got rid of illegal defense.
15:07 But if you allow defenders to be entitled to your space and you're not, you know, gifting
15:12 these talented offensive players, extra possessions at the free throw line and, you know, really
15:17 giving them the freedom of movement, just let guys earn it. That's all I want to see.
15:22 That's all anybody wants to see. I love how playoff basketball is officiated. Just do
15:26 that for the regular season. Like, I think it's so straightforward.
15:31 I think so as well. And it has gotten out of control this year to some degree. And I'm
15:37 going to be interested to see how that plays out, especially, you know, there are some
15:39 big games coming up for the Celtics here against some stout defenses. You know, Denver switched
15:45 well against them last time they played them. That's a big one coming up on Thursday. Phoenix,
15:48 not a great defense, but they do have some frontline size. Yeah. So I'm a little interested
15:55 in that one. Yeah. And there's not much that the Celtics have to prove down the stretch
15:59 of the season. Like they're going to be the one seed. They're going to be the favorite
16:04 in the East. And they're probably the odds on favorite to win the championship here.
16:11 But I just don't have that pause, Justin, and it's hard to escape it with games like
16:14 this. Like you go into Sunday's game, 11 straight win over the Warriors who were relatively
16:20 healthy, like no Wiggins and all that. And you just blow them off the floor and with
16:27 no Porzingis look like an unstoppable force. And at that point, you're just sitting there.
16:32 If you're someone who's tried to be a little bit of a skeptic like me and are just like,
16:36 you know, what can you even nitpick at this point? And this game showed some of those
16:40 things like the offensive walls. You know, they can get into those. They can get stagnant
16:45 in those situations. The crunch time's a little bit better this year, but it's still a little
16:49 bit of an issue here. And you know what I thought showed in this game to a little bit,
16:54 just a tiny issue. But again, you're just searching for little things here that might
16:57 prevent them from winning a championship when they switch like they did late.
17:02 They get a little susceptible to the offensive reboundings and that put back by Wade there
17:07 was a big play down the stretch with Porzingis playing up. So again, those are just small
17:11 things, but I'm looking for something because I as great as they've been this year, I know
17:17 you're probably going to laugh at some of the things you've watched in Cleveland and
17:20 you know what normal teams have to deal with. I have a little bit of pause picking them
17:25 to win it all. And maybe some of it's just what we saw last year. Maybe some of it's
17:28 just what we've seen across multiple seasons now with this team, despite how good they've
17:33 looked in the regular season.
17:34 I'm going to call you a coward. I'm just holding up Howard right here. I'm going to call you
17:39 a coward right here in front of your viewers. No, Boston is that damn good. Like, you know,
17:44 I've got, I should be believing you should be believing. And I've done that emotionally
17:48 to where, you know, I set expectations a little bit lower, like, you know, and, and that way
17:53 your favorite team has a chance to exceed them and you're not going to be let down.
17:57 Like, you know, different people experience fandom in different ways. No, this Celtics
18:02 team is that damn good. It's the best starting five in the NBA. Like you can pick nets, but
18:07 the reality is since the 2017 Warriors, there are no perfect basketball teams. There are
18:13 no teams where it's like, okay, there isn't an obvious flaw. They're going to go out and
18:16 win like so often winning and losing. Like people will talk about it. Like it's something
18:22 genetic. Like, do you have the clutch gene? Do you have the winning gene? Blah, blah,
18:26 blah. No, really when it comes to today's NBA, where there's so much parody, there's
18:30 so, so many talented teams, it's going to come down to execution. Obviously, you know,
18:35 there's a luck component when it comes to shooting variants and whatnot, but Boston
18:39 absolutely has enough to win. And beyond that, I think they should be the title favorite.
18:44 Like I think when you look at the state of the Eastern conference where everyone but
18:49 them is banged up and probably isn't going to be, you know, at full stride heading into
18:55 the playoffs, even if they do get healthy, that's going to make things easier. They're
18:59 still going to have to go out and earn it. But like that starting five is so damn good.
19:04 I think, you know, Derek White and drew holiday that that tandem is terrific. They gave Darius
19:11 Garland hell as kind of the lone ball handler a lot of the time. And, you know, even just
19:15 the rim protection, like the Cavs, one of the things that's impressed me for the Cavs,
19:19 and this definitely wasn't the case last year is like, they've managed to stay with Boston
19:24 from a three point shooting standpoint and actually outshoot them in a couple of these
19:27 matchups. That was never even a possibility last year from three. And it just goes to
19:32 show you, you know, the change in personnel and whatnot. But Boston's rim protection was
19:36 outstanding. Like there was that stretch where Luke Cornett just ruined everybody's lives.
19:40 Frankly, that was that was the worst Evan Mobley game of the season by a very, very,
19:46 very wide margin of found ways to make him look bad. Yeah, he just he really struggled.
19:52 I think he was pressing in that one. We've seen it in some of these matchups where, you
19:56 know, he's trying to do a little bit too much like an isolation and stuff like that. And,
20:00 you know, also working his way back and trying to find that rhythm. But that was easily the
20:06 worst game that he has played all season. But I think the rim protection is outstanding.
20:10 And you have depth with rim protection to write, like, even though I think Cornett going
20:14 in drop hurt them a little later in the games, his ability to really take away the ramp for
20:20 Zingas, Horford, all these guys that are able to do that, it really kind of forces teams
20:26 to beat you from the outside.
20:27 And that was never an option for the Cavs in the past. They did a good job of it last
20:31 night. But again, like, I think if you if that was a playoff like atmosphere where Boston's
20:37 locked in, we're not having these conversations. We're not picking these myths. It comes down
20:41 to execution. And as long as the Boston's executing at a high level and, you know, they
20:46 don't get bad luck with injuries or like some outlandish shooting variants, I think they're
20:51 going to win a championship.
20:56 I'll be there soon. I'll meet you there soon. I got to see a little bit more down the stretch.
21:00 I'm just going to keep bugging you. I'm just going to keep bugging you until then.
21:05 And again, I hate to hold out, but like you said, I think you described it perfectly there.
21:09 You set the expectations a little lower, not just because you don't want to be disappointed,
21:13 but because with this team, we've seen them look really, really good in other seasons.
21:20 And something just happens in the playoffs. And I don't think it'll happen in the East
21:23 this time. I don't think the Cavs can beat them over seven. I just don't think they have
21:27 the offensive personnel top to bottom to kind of stand with them in some of those track
21:31 meets the heat this year. I know they've had their number, but the Celtics have just demolished.
21:38 I just don't think they're as good of a team this year. Like I know they're doing the same
21:42 zombie heat routine. And I understand the trauma of what happened in the finals against
21:46 the Warriors. And yeah, there were some injuries. You know, Tatum wasn't fully healthy there.
21:52 But I think that this is a better Celtics team. I'm not going to forgive you guys to
21:56 losing the Warriors because, you know, prior to that occurring, I would always be able
22:00 to lean back on. Well, yeah, Steph won that one finals with everybody hurt. And then the
22:05 other two were KD. You gave them that validating one. And I will never forgive you guys for
22:10 that. But I think you can move past that trauma. This is a better team. This is a more experienced
22:15 team. It's a different team, too. This is a team that's gone through that Tatum and
22:19 Brown have gone through that. And that's one of the most important things. Like, I think
22:23 it's one of the flaws of how the media talks about basketball in general is we all it's
22:30 a common knowledge that when a young team goes into the playoffs, they're going to embarrass
22:34 themselves at some point.
22:36 Experience is going to matter. It doesn't matter what the regular season numbers were.
22:39 I was saying that routinely last year that the Cavs, even though they had the net rating
22:45 and all the advanced stats of a contender, that they were going to embarrass themselves
22:49 at some point in the playoffs. I just thought it was going to happen later than it did.
22:53 But that's a thing young teams go through. I think OKC is going to go through it, too.
22:58 But all of those failings, all those shortcomings are things that you can draw upon. Like, that's
23:04 that's the documentary stuff. When you you know, you watch something like the Dynasty
23:08 and you see how you know, or the last dance where you fail, you fail, you fail.
23:13 But you learn from all of those experiences. You make the necessary roster adjustments.
23:17 I think Boston's a team that has the experience. I think they have the top in talent. I think
23:21 they've made the right roster moves to get them there. I don't think you have to be concerned
23:26 about that same stuff. It's really just going to be come down to are we playing Boston Celtics
23:30 basketball? Yeah, and they've been able to do that on this recent stretch. I was very
23:35 impressed. I mean, they're relentless attack and mismatches. If you have anybody on the
23:39 court who can be exposed, they're going to expose them.
23:43 And then on the other end, they're going to brutally ignore guys who can't make you pay
23:47 in ways that completely swallow up the stars. And I know the Warriors want to make all those
23:53 excuses after Sunday, but they had Curry wrapped up. They had Chris Paul wrapped up in ways
23:59 that I hadn't seen this season from them. I mean, four points from Curry, two points
24:03 from Paul. They weren't able to do anything out there. And a lot of it was because you
24:06 had the, you know, Kenyon is and Moody's and other guys out there who just really can make
24:11 them pay. Yeah. And Cavaliers did a better job of making them pay with those guys. Wade
24:17 was great making shots away from that pressure. Garland navigated both ends really well. Allen
24:24 survived some of the switches and, you know, they just showed that they can hang. And I
24:28 think, you know, we'll talk about their playoff chances a little bit later in the show, but
24:31 I think it's a good, you know, statement by them there that they can, you know, match
24:37 up at least in this game. And they got overwhelmed a little bit at times during the middle portions
24:41 of this game, but when it mattered down the stretch and in those December games, I thought
24:46 they could hang around and that's all you can really ask against this level of talent
24:51 when it's fully healthy, when the scene is fully healthy, when they have everybody out
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26:11 out right now. Been enjoying trying them out so far. And as we continue here, the microscope,
26:18 as you talked about Justin there, it's been placed on Tatum fairly. And I think he's come
26:25 through in a lot of ways this year. I think he does deserve some level of consideration
26:31 and MVP. I don't think he'll win it. Jokic just has that staggering of a hold over it.
26:37 And maybe that changes over the last month and change here. But right now I don't think
26:42 it's much of a race. Shea, I think you have to give some deference just given what he's
26:46 working with around him. That young, young team that was not in the playoffs a year ago
26:50 is now the two seed that's tough to argue against. But I think anyone else, you can
26:55 make the argument from Tatum standpoint with statistics and with what I do think is a pretty
27:01 strong argument that he's the best player on the best team by miles above anybody else.
27:06 And if that lead builds down the stretch of the season, great. So the second and third
27:11 place, like I think that's great. You know, you don't really get remembered from that,
27:15 but it is something of a statement and accomplishment, especially in this loaded race with a guy
27:19 like Jokic doing the stuff he's doing at the top. I think that's what you settle on. I
27:25 don't think there's a real path to him winning it with the style he's playing. And people
27:30 have made a big deal about that. Maybe he's getting penalized for the stats and the sacrifices
27:33 and all the rest. But I don't think even if he tried, he could do what Jokic is doing.
27:38 So it is what it is there. What have you made of his season and his performance on the stretch
27:43 of this game? Yeah, I completely agree with you. I think he deserves to be in the MVP
27:48 race, you know, and that comes with responsibilities, right? Like you're going to be under the microscope.
27:53 You're going to get scrutiny when you come up short in games like this. You know, again,
27:59 it goes back to what I said earlier about I felt like there was just a little bit too
28:03 much stagnation from Boston in their late game execution. You know, I think you want
28:08 to even if it's just like a Tatum in white two man action or something along those lines,
28:15 like just something to get him going where it's not as much of an isolation possession
28:19 or if it is an ISO possession that, you know, you're at least attacking and destabilize
28:23 defense first. But yeah, he deserves to be in the MVP consideration. I'm a big believer
28:29 that team success should be a factor in this kind of thing. Like I disagreed with Scotty
28:34 Barnes making the all-star team on a bad team where, you know, you look at the on off splits
28:40 and despite how bad they are, they're better with him on the bench. Like that was frustrating
28:44 to me. I thought someone like Jared Allen deserved it more, especially when you're talking
28:48 about such a and an NBA that's so loaded with talent.
28:53 Guys are going to be putting up numbers on every single team because someone's got to
28:56 do it and you should reward the guys that are, you know, doing that with talent around
29:01 them. And I think for Boston to add as much talent as they did and, you know, Tatum's
29:06 numbers have taken a small hit, but I think he's playing better basketball. Like I don't
29:11 think it should just be about the box score at the end of the day, right? Like being able
29:15 to maintain similar numbers with more talent around you. I think that's actually an improvement
29:21 in a way. Like one of the examples of that would be like last year with the calves, right?
29:26 Like the fact that Darius Garland scoring remained identical, even though you're adding
29:30 Donovan Mitchell to the equation, like that's something that I consider to be growth, even
29:35 though statistically it's not growth, right? Like so I think Tatum definitely falls into
29:40 that category and you know, it's, it's tough. I would give it to him over Shea. Like, yeah,
29:47 I know. Okay. C has taken a big leap this season, but a big part of why they're taking
29:53 a leap from lower depths is because they've artificially kept themselves at that, right?
29:59 Like Chet missed last year. They, anytime Shea is banged up, you're arresting him to
30:04 get higher lotto position and all that kind of stuff. You know, Williams missed some time
30:08 and whatnot, right? Like they've done a lot of things to deflate their numbers in the
30:13 past and now, okay, now we, we got a healthy roster. We've got more, you could see Tatum
30:18 being runner up.
30:21 I might, you might hate me for this, but I, well, honestly I can see him being runner
30:26 up because Giannis might miss some time with the Achilles here, but you'd go over, I guess
30:31 with the finish here, but man, they've been bad. That's see, that's, that's my big thing.
30:36 Like I think Boston should be rewarded because they're the better team, but Giannis is also
30:41 arguably having the best season of his career. So that's a really, that's one of those tough
30:45 things to balance of how much do you put on him? How much do you put on, you know team
30:51 success? Like, yeah, like I, frankly, like it's just not a subject that I've given a
30:57 ton of time to think about. So these are half baked takes here because, you know, I think
31:01 Donna Mitchell should be in the conversation for MVP, but I'm not sitting here like doing
31:05 a league podcast where I'm really like diving into this sort of thing. So I definitely think,
31:11 you know, Tatum should get that kind of credit. And the most important thing, like, you know,
31:16 I've talked about this before when people get obsessed with rankings and things like
31:21 that and who's top 10 and who's not, the most important thing is how you're, are you good
31:29 enough to be the best player at your position in a playoff series? Or are you able to be
31:33 the best player in a playoff series period? Right? Like Kyrie as an example, no one would
31:39 ever put him above Steph Curry, but he was able to go out there and outplay Steph in
31:43 multiple final series, right? Like the best player isn't always going to have the best
31:47 series, but if you can at least hold your own at a given position against another star,
31:52 that's the important thing. Like that's the model for the Cavs. Like they're probably
31:56 like, you know, Darius isn't going to be the best point guard in every single series, but
32:00 I think he, you know, if he gets back into his rhythm and he reaches his potential, he's
32:05 that type of guy that can outplay a guard in another series. Donovan's that kind of
32:09 guy, Mobley, Allen, all those guys can play like that at that level. So when you have
32:14 someone like Jason Tatum, that's another echelon where I think he can just flat out be the
32:19 best player in a series. He can take over a series, but it's just going to be about
32:22 whether or not he does it.
32:24 Yeah. And I mentioned earlier one to six late on those like final 10 second shots this year.
32:31 The numbers overall, the last handful of years here though, and I remember seeing something
32:36 like this semi recently, like within the last three years, if you stack it up against the
32:41 other stars, it actually is solid to like above average what he's doing in those spots.
32:49 And he gets a ton of opportunities. He's shooting more of those shots than anybody else, which
32:53 I guess speaks back to the predictability of them late in games, as you mentioned. But
32:59 I'm going to try to toss these up here. And we're using a new platform here. So we'll
33:03 see how this goes.
33:04 This is from the most part as you throw that up, like a lot of the clutch stats, it's all
33:09 such a small sample that I don't really know what you can do with it. Like, I remember
33:13 I think it was back in like 2009 or 2010, maybe even 2011, where Tom Havistrow had a
33:19 stat where it was like, Kobe's had more air balls on last second shots than made shots.
33:24 Like, you know, you just remember the makes and whatnot.
33:27 And I think people forget the degree of difficulty in these spots to getting a shot off the defense
33:34 being set so often, you know, doubles coming in these spots to get you off the ball. So
33:41 it's a high degree of difficulty. So what's actually a good percentage in these spots?
33:45 I think you have to recalibrate a little bit. And when you start to look at some of these
33:49 numbers here, you realize why, like these are some big time clutch players like Luca,
33:55 you think of him being one of the better guys in that spot. And he is at 21%. LeBron, like
34:01 a staggeringly bad number there. And this is over the last five seasons with these guys
34:07 apparently here. So since 2019, 2020, Tatum's 10 of 36. That's the most makes in the league
34:13 in those situations with five seconds left in the fourth or overtime to tie or take the
34:17 lead. And one of the better percentages at 28%. You know, Jimmy's 20% here. Booker's
34:25 21%. Trey actually has a pretty solid number here as well as Murray, Shea really good,
34:31 but you know, nearly 20 fewer attempts in Tatum. Curry solid, but again, 20 fewer attempts.
34:38 So it's all in the 20s and 30s here. So Tatum's really not different than any of these guys,
34:45 except for the fact that he is routinely getting these shots. So maybe you get away from him
34:51 a little bit in that spots. But when you have the production like that, you get why Joe's
34:55 just kind of toss him the ball in that spot to try and get something off. Yeah, yeah,
35:00 I get that. It's the possession last night was bad, though. I mean, he was like digging
35:05 into two guys, took 19 dribbles and then just tossed up a fadeaway over two guys that really
35:10 had no chance. That's the thing, right? Like how possessions get classified, like what
35:16 gets called an ISO, what gets called all this different stuff like it really even within
35:21 that it varies so much. And like, I think that's one of those spots where you have to
35:25 go to the eye test. And I have no problem with Tatum getting that shot. It's just about,
35:30 you know, making things a little bit easier for him and not going pure hero ball because
35:35 I definitely felt like things were very, because it's a difference in what they do all game
35:40 to that point to go up by 20 compared to what they're doing down the stretch there. And
35:45 that's, I think, frustrated fans for years with this team. And even, you know, apologies
35:50 for always doing this, but I always lean on on my experience as a fan. But like the Cavs,
35:57 when they won the championship, they did a fair amount of isolation. But a lot of the
36:01 time, you know, it was a two man action. Kyrie and LeBron screening like Kyrie would screen
36:06 for LeBron because they knew that the switch was coming. So, you know, you're either getting
36:10 Kyrie on a small forward. He could blow by or LeBron switched onto staff or whatever
36:15 the case may be like, just simple little things like that, that it's not a big complicated
36:20 action when everybody's tired and you're not going to run it like that.
36:24 I think that's another factor when you get to these late game possessions is guys are
36:27 so gas that if you're running a set, but it's at 80% speed, a lot of the times the defense
36:35 can stick with that and blow it up. But I still think you can kind of run those little
36:39 actions to just create an advantage, something that's not too complicated, that's not going
36:44 to generate a turnover, but is at least going to make things easier. I think that's that's
36:49 the sweet spot. And again, I've I've watched maybe, you know, 10, 15 Celtics games and
36:54 they've looked awesome in the majority of them. So I don't have like macro concerns
36:59 here. But, you know, that's just one of those things that you can kind of learn from this
37:03 experience.
37:04 Well, let's go to one example we're familiar with from what was this last year? November
37:11 2022, early last season. I think down to late in the game, they put Tatum in the backcourt,
37:19 the inbound at the smart did like Tatum running downhill handoff play. And he blew by everybody
37:25 for a big dunk on Allen that, you know, some people thought should have been in one there
37:29 on that play. And then it went to overtime and Celtics lost that game. But a really good
37:33 play in that spot to get him an easier look at the basket rather than just a fadeaway
37:37 jump shot over, you know, someone in his face.
37:40 Similar play to beat Philly last year, really the same exact play where they handed it off
37:44 to smart for a three that beat Philadelphia on the road in that game last year. So I think
37:49 that's what people are looking for a little bit, a little more variety from their late
37:53 game sets, a little more speed, certainly. And I put that on Tatum rather than Joe in
37:57 that spot. I know Joe tried to call time out with four seconds last night, but I don't
38:02 know what that would have done. They did that against Denver in the first game. I don't
38:05 know if he caught that one and it just ended up being like a Tatum desperation heave anyway
38:09 from the midrange in that game. So they just got to speed it up. They just got to run the
38:15 offense in a manner more like how they do for the rest of the game, because this offense
38:19 is great. They have a lot of options. They can go to Porzingis Brown in this spots to
38:24 a 12 according to the numbers I pulled up to. So you can try to go to him as well. But
38:30 if it's the same thing, you're probably going to get the same result in those spots. So
38:34 yeah, we'll wrap this up with some calves talk as they head to the playoffs here. You
38:40 talk injuries. It's been tough for them to get these guys together for a lot of this
38:45 year. But those the results here, the depth that they've added, Shrewston play this game
38:50 as well. I've really liked his fit with this team this year. He had that heave the other
38:55 night against Dallas that you know when that when that came. I like this team. I did last
39:01 year. I was shocked they lost round one and again bad matchup. Really good team Brunson
39:06 all the rest. I'm believing again here. I think was from what I've seen from their ability
39:12 to win games with guys down that Garland Mobley stretch was so impressive. Allen's playing
39:18 at another level this year and now you know Mitchell hopefully gets healthy for this stretch
39:23 run and is kind of the guy leading the charge here down the stretch of the season. More
39:27 wing depth, more wing interchangeability at that spot depending on what you need. So I
39:35 at least have the moving on beyond round one this year depending on the matchup here. Can
39:41 you dream of an East finals run against a team like the Celtics here? I mean, that should
39:46 be the goal. Like to me again, my biggest concern right now is they're just not going
39:51 to get healthy in time. They're not going to get to a rhythm and we're going to go into
39:54 a playoff or come out of a playoff series where you know, we just don't have good data.
40:00 And I think that's really, you know, frustrating from a team building standpoint when you got
40:04 some tough questions. I think at this point, I have no real concerns about Don Mitchell.
40:11 Like I think he's going to be coming back. I feel like there's going to be an extension
40:15 and you know, if you reevaluate in two years you do but you look at like the moves that
40:19 the Knicks did to get rid of every young ass that they have Miami moved one of their only
40:24 two first round picks. Like I don't think those teams are making those kind of moves
40:27 if they feel like Donovan Mitchell is going to be available on the trade market because
40:31 they took themselves out of the running. Right. But I do feel better about their ability in
40:38 the playoffs. Like they're a deep team, right? Like even having someone like Sam Merrill
40:41 coming in off the bench that can light it up like that's tremendously helpful. And last
40:47 year, you know, I'm not going to sit here and you know, complain that you know, the
40:51 casual fan isn't aware of like every little nuance that's going on with a team like the
40:55 Cavs that largely flies under the radar. But you go into a playoff series where Dean Wade's
41:01 recovering from a torn shoulder and can't lift his right arm above his shoulder without
41:05 an extreme amount of pain. He's not helpful. You see what a healthy Dean Wade does to the
41:09 team right when he's out there. Isaac Okoro missed a month straight prior to the playoffs
41:15 and was questionable for game one playing through a lot of pain with a knee injury and
41:19 then, you know, gets re injured in game one again. So you had a top heavy team that had
41:25 just made a consolidation trade and two of your best guys coming in off the bench, Dean
41:29 Wade and Isaac Okoro were non-factors. Then you have, you know, Jetty Osmond, who's the
41:33 defensive liability. You have Danny Green with a torn leg, right? Like it's just such
41:39 a different team when you have Max Drew, George Niang, Sam Merrill, Isaac Okoro, who's made
41:44 a leap.
41:45 Don't forget Lamar Stevens. Yeah. Yeah. Not not not the greatest options. Let's just stick
41:52 here. So I feel a lot better about their ability in the playoffs as long as they are healthy.
41:58 And also like it's going to depend on matchups. Like there's a lot of weird things happening
42:03 here. Like if Joellen beat is back and you're playing Philly first round right now, be Cleve
42:07 in Miami, which would be a slugfest. Yeah. Like right now, I think Cleveland fully healthy.
42:16 I think Cleveland, New York and Milwaukee are in the same tier. And I you know, your
42:22 order will be based on how much you value experience or the best player in the series
42:26 or what happened in last year's playoffs. Right. But like I think any of those teams
42:30 can easily advance to the Eastern Conference finals or I can see the path to it. So it'll
42:36 be interesting to see if they can get healthy in time. It'll be interesting to see how they
42:39 navigate these injuries, how long Donovan Mitchell misses. They have a very, very, very
42:44 tough schedule to close out the year. So that's one of those things that gives me trepidation.
42:50 They got, you know, 13 games in a row over the span of a month here where they're not
42:54 going to be playing the same city twice. They have a lot of travel. That's not good for
42:58 a team that's dealing with injuries and is trying to feel better physically. So getting
43:03 a win like they did against Boston, I think is incredibly important. You need to bank
43:07 those wins. And you know, if they can go just above 500 here, the rest of the way you're
43:14 looking at 52, 53 win season, I think given the number of injuries they've had, that that
43:21 goes to show that this is a well-built team that, you know, is heading in the right direction.
43:26 Yeah. And there's a big converse, big picture conversation we can have another day. But
43:32 I do generally believe in that if you're going to be a higher seed here, you're probably
43:37 going to have a better chance of moving on. And they put themselves in that position with
43:40 what they've done to this roster this year. So enormous amount of credit there. They are
43:45 in that weird spot, as you mentioned, of potentially drawing New York again, Miami, tricky, Philly,
43:52 depending on who they have challenging, even the Pacers, if they are that seven seed, look
43:58 a little more dangerous than they appear on paper, the record there. So there's some teams
44:03 from like four to eight there that could be a challenge round one. And that's why I like
44:08 where the Celtics have put themselves, because I really think it's going to be like a Chicago,
44:12 Atlanta, maybe even Brooklyn style, like first round sweep that they put themselves in position
44:18 to pull off here. And if you remember last year, they were the two. I know they avoided
44:23 Miami, which really could have been a disaster, but they still ended up in like this six game
44:26 slog against Atlanta round one. So that's another difference over last year that I think
44:31 they have going for themselves right now. And they are going to potentially play a finals
44:35 preview on Thursday, late night edition of the Garner report coming your way. I think
44:40 it's a 10 o'clock tip off between those two. So we'll be live after midnight, certainly
44:45 here on the East Coast. So check us out then I'm back on the show tomorrow night. So I
44:51 will be there alongside some others from the cast. I'm not sure exactly who, but we will
44:56 see you then. And one more shout out quick to our sponsor prize picks, check them out
45:01 and get a hundred percent matching bonus on your deposit up to a hundred dollars. Just
45:05 pick a couple of guys, great experience doing that. Any stat category, a great daily fantasy
45:11 experience over there. So go check them out at prize picks. He is Justin Rowan, always
45:17 a good friend of the garden report. Check him is chased down podcast out and I hope
45:24 you feel better soon, man. That is an ugly injury. It's a, yeah, it is definitely been
45:30 a bit of a journey. I had a positive checkup on Monday. How long has it been? It's three
45:36 weeks, three, three weeks since I tore my Achilles. As I said, it was on a hook shot.
45:40 It was my first time playing like, or pick up basketball since the pandemic. And like
45:44 I had stretched, I had done yoga and everything and it just exploded on me on my first shot
45:48 of the run. I'm miserable, miserable, but I actually learned through this experience.
45:53 I, when I was down on the ground, I said, I was like, God, I got to go under the knife
45:57 again. This sucks. I learned that there's a non-surgical route and that's the route
46:02 that I went. The doctor says, Hey, your, your Achilles has attached itself back to the heel
46:07 and I'm on the right path here. So I avoided surgery even though it was a complete rupture.
46:14 So that that's a lot of fun. I'm, I'm, I'm starting to gain mobility and that's great
46:18 to see.
46:19 Well, that's good news. And I guess this is the last cab Celtics of the year, right? So
46:23 nothing till the playoffs. We'll keep tabs on them. Of course, check out his coverage
46:28 over there at the chase down and at Twitter at calves on it. And maybe this'll be the first
46:34 year since 18 with Celtics calves. I want to say, yeah, it's been a little while here
46:41 and it'd be a good one again, I think between these.
46:43 Hopefully it would go as long as, as that one did.
46:47 That one's still a sore spot for me. If you want to talk about sore spots.
46:50 Oh, I believe that. I definitely believe that you want to talk about serious. You guys shouldn't
46:54 have lost that near the top of the list.
46:58 Speaking of that, I interviewed Kyrie for the first time last week. Pretty good experience.
47:05 He seems to be in a good place.
47:07 I'm happy to hear that. I'm always rooting for former calves no matter how weird things
47:12 get.
47:13 Yeah. And I think for the first time ever since it happened, I saw the slightest bit
47:18 of all right, we're over it from Celtics fans too, especially when they saw his comments
47:23 after that game. So maybe some healing going on there as well to connect us again there,
47:29 but he's just then check out chase down, check us out tomorrow night and I will see you then.
47:35 Thank you, everybody.
47:37 Thank you.