After a heated quarter-finals weekend, Martyn, Lewis and Ben discuss the up's and down's, and what will come next.
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00:00 (upbeat music)
00:02 - Hello and welcome to National World Fitba Talk,
00:09 your NAN's favorite football podcast again.
00:12 It's a show where we break down the latest news and results
00:15 from the Scottish Premiership and around the SPFL.
00:18 I'm your host Martin Simpson,
00:19 joined once again by Ben Banks and Lewis Anderson.
00:22 This week, we're going to be discussing
00:24 the Scottish Cup quarterfinals
00:26 and look ahead to the semifinal draw.
00:28 So guys, it's a pretty exciting semifinal draw all told.
00:31 We've got four of the biggest clubs in Scotland,
00:35 the top three in the Premiership plus struggling Aberdeen,
00:39 probably a good place to start actually.
00:41 Ben, Aberdeen maybe upset in the odds a little bit,
00:45 beating Kilbarnock, well, not upset in the odds
00:47 because the bookmakers actually made Aberdeen favorites
00:51 for that game, surprisingly,
00:52 and I suppose they were vindicated in the end.
00:56 - It's a tumultuous time, Neil,
00:58 Warnock leaves straight after the game.
01:00 They've got Celtic coming up now in the semifinals.
01:04 Just for those who don't know,
01:07 Aberdeen haven't beat Celtic at Hampden since I think 1992.
01:12 It's about eight or nine of the last meetings
01:15 between the two at Hampden have all gone Celtic's way.
01:18 But I suppose the interesting thing is we don't know
01:20 what Aberdeen are going to look like by then
01:22 because presumably they're going to have a new manager
01:24 in charge and they're going to have had a few games
01:27 under that manager.
01:28 So just, it's all a bit up in the air at Pataudry, isn't it?
01:33 - Neil Warnock pulling his best,
01:36 my work here is done.
01:37 What do you mean your work here is done?
01:39 You didn't do anything, it's done at the end of that game.
01:42 I think the fact he's leaving at the end of that
01:45 just sums his full tenure up of 32 days or 31 days.
01:50 It looks like it's maybe going okay.
01:52 They've got the rest of the game midweek against Dundee.
01:54 They win in the cup, they maybe get a positive result there
01:57 and then all of a sudden you're thinking, right,
01:59 top six is probably gone,
02:00 but they've got the cup game to look forward to
02:02 and they're picking up a wee bit of form
02:03 heading into their national break.
02:05 And now all year, nobody's spoken about the fact
02:07 it was probably the best Aberdeen performance
02:10 of the year so far.
02:11 Thought they were really impressive.
02:13 Nobody's talking about that.
02:15 It's all about the uncertainty.
02:17 It's everything's a disaster.
02:19 And the squad are again going to be working
02:21 with a new coach.
02:22 And I know Peter Leven's already taken one game
02:24 against Celtic, but he's going to be in for two games
02:28 against Dundee and Mullow.
02:29 You'll potentially have a new guy.
02:30 Will you have a new guy?
02:31 By the time they come back from the international break.
02:35 And I think you could understand an Aberdeen fan
02:38 if they said they didn't really have much confidence
02:40 in the current football monitoring board
02:43 to get the next one right.
02:46 Can I know obviously they got through in the cup
02:48 and that's great, but ultimately
02:50 because of Neil Warwick's decision,
02:51 that's not the talking point now around Aberdeen.
02:53 The cup semi-final is very much a distant talking point
02:56 for them.
02:57 It's very much about who comes next
02:59 and who can actually see if they can steady this ship,
03:02 which just seems to be going in all sorts
03:04 of different directions.
03:05 - Yeah.
03:08 As for Celtic, Lewis, it's not exactly going well
03:13 at Parkhead either to be fair,
03:15 but they will go into that semi-final heavy favourites,
03:19 even though they kind of rode their luck
03:22 a wee bit against Livingston at times.
03:24 - Yeah, again, Martin, it's been the case now
03:28 for numerous weeks, isn't it?
03:29 Very unconvincing once again,
03:31 obviously two goals in the final five minutes or so
03:35 to kill the game.
03:36 As you said, given a real freight against Livingston.
03:40 It'll be frustrating from Brendan Rodgers' point of view.
03:46 They're taking a long time to overcome teams
03:50 that realistically on paper, Livingston at home,
03:54 you'd look at that and think that it was gonna be
03:56 a walk in the park for them,
03:58 but it just shows you where Celtic are at at the moment.
04:00 Obviously the loss of Lille-Abada last week in particular,
04:05 whether or not that's maybe had a slight effect
04:08 on the kind of morale of the squad
04:11 going into the game or whatever.
04:13 Again, yeah, certainly unconvincing at times.
04:16 As you say, they'll still go into the semi-final
04:20 as huge favourites to get past Aberdeen,
04:24 but a dramatic improvement required.
04:28 At the moment in time, it's kind of difficult to see
04:31 Celtic convincingly sweeping aside any team
04:36 on current form.
04:37 So I think, as I said, they'll go into the game
04:39 as favourites, but there's huge areas
04:44 that they need to improve in.
04:46 - The thing I find interesting is that in many ways
04:50 that semi-final is perhaps just as important to Hearts
04:55 as their own semi-final in the sense that
04:59 what has been a very good season for Hearts
05:02 where they've basically wrapped up third place
05:05 and now they're in the Scottish Cup semi-finals,
05:10 probably Rangers again, we'll get onto them,
05:14 they'll be heavy favourites for that,
05:15 well, favourites at least for that match.
05:18 But all Hearts hard work this season
05:23 would effectively be undone if Aberdeen
05:26 somehow actually won the Scottish Cup.
05:28 And it feels like there might be a little bit of a worry
05:33 at Tyne Castle, I think Hearts probably would have preferred
05:36 Aberdeen in the semi, obviously they would have preferred
05:38 Aberdeen in the semis from the point of view that
05:41 not just the way Aberdeen are performing at the moment,
05:44 but you always want to avoid Celtic and Rangers
05:47 in the semis when you're a fan of these clubs,
05:49 you want to avoid them for as long as possible
05:51 in the tournament.
05:52 But it would have been good if they could have had Aberdeen,
05:55 they could have had their fate in their own hands
05:58 because if Aberdeen win the Scottish Cup,
06:02 Hearts don't have that automatic European football place
06:06 that they would get for finishing third
06:08 if Celtic or Rangers or indeed themselves win the Cup.
06:11 - Do you think there is an element of concern
06:15 at Tyne Castle around that, Ben?
06:17 - I don't think so, if I'm going to be completely honest,
06:21 'cause I think in a way they still do have their fate
06:22 in their own hands.
06:23 I know they weren't obviously happy with the way
06:26 that the two games at Ibrox have panned out,
06:28 they lost the two late goals in one of them
06:31 and they got beat pretty heavily
06:33 in the 5-0 game that was most recent,
06:36 but the way Hearts are playing now,
06:39 Hearts have got that thing that other clubs
06:41 outside the old firm don't have,
06:43 and it's that consistency of even if they're not
06:46 particularly playing well, they're still greening out results
06:48 and a lot of that is down to Lauren Shankland,
06:51 even in the game against Morton,
06:52 he plays a big role in the goal that Ken Fargass scores
06:55 and things like that,
06:56 so it helps having that type of figure up front,
06:59 but generally, I'm with Spoken about it before,
07:01 but just generally, there's nobody in the Hearts team
07:03 that jumps out at you as like, wow, he's brilliant,
07:06 but like Frankie Kent, Kammy Devlin,
07:08 these type of guys who are just quite solid,
07:11 keep them ticking along and they'll fancy their chances
07:13 against Rangers, obviously there's less pressure
07:16 probably on them than say Aberdeen to beat Celtic,
07:19 just because maybe the narrative around Celtic
07:21 then is this crumbling empire type thing
07:24 and there's a chance for Aberdeen,
07:26 whereas Rangers are viewed as this sort of,
07:29 almost like, I don't know, do I say all conquering force
07:31 when they've not really achieved anything
07:33 in terms of the league yet,
07:34 but certainly the momentum is with them,
07:36 but if Hearts managed to beat Rangers,
07:39 they've already beaten Celtic twice, hoping away,
07:42 you would definitely fancy them over Aberdeen,
07:44 so as much as the Rangers one is a challenge,
07:48 if they did manage to get past that,
07:50 you would seriously fancy them, I think,
07:52 to go all the way in this competition.
07:54 - Yeah, at the moment in time,
07:56 we don't know how the games are gonna line up
08:01 in terms of what's gonna be played on the Saturday,
08:05 what's gonna be played on the Sunday,
08:06 what time kickoffs are gonna be.
08:08 Obviously, I think, I would assume Aberdeen Celtic
08:13 will probably be the Saturday game,
08:15 maybe early afternoon and we'll see Hearts Rangers
08:19 later on the Sunday, could go the other way, of course,
08:23 but I think it would take a lot of the pressure off Hearts
08:27 if the Celtic-Aberdeen game goes first
08:30 and it goes the way most will sort of expect it to
08:33 with Celtic beating Aberdeen,
08:35 'cause I know you've said you don't think
08:37 they're thinking about it, but they have to be,
08:40 because that would be, what is it,
08:42 a guaranteed three and a half, four million pound
08:44 of income next season would just vanish
08:47 if Aberdeen win the Scottish Cup for Hearts,
08:52 well, Hearts would still have the opportunity to get that,
08:54 but we've seen before when Scottish teams
08:57 that don't have the best records
08:59 in these European playoff qualifiers,
09:01 especially if they come up against a top level side,
09:04 which they could, they could come up against a team
09:06 from the English Premier League.
09:08 But on Rangers, Lewis,
09:12 it's probably the most straightforward
09:16 kind of path at the moment.
09:17 Rangers, I mean, you would assume would be favourites
09:20 for the tournament based off of just how
09:24 the quarterfinals went, even though it wasn't necessarily
09:29 that straightforward for Rangers?
09:31 - Yeah, no, I think that's fair.
09:35 It was a bit of a grind.
09:36 Hibs didn't, of course, help themselves
09:40 by having two players sent off during the match.
09:45 It was a pretty frantic game, wasn't it?
09:48 From the clips I saw.
09:52 Yeah, I think Rangers will go in, as you say,
09:54 as favourites to win the competition.
09:55 I think a lot will also depend on how they navigate
09:59 the European campaign as well.
10:02 I know they've still got this second leg
10:04 to play against Benfica.
10:06 Again, a lot, a lot, we know Rangers' record
10:10 when it comes to injuries as well,
10:11 whether or not, you know, a couple of key players
10:14 here and there, if they're out,
10:16 it kind of leaves Rangers certainly stretched
10:19 in certain areas.
10:20 So that would be a slight cause for concern
10:21 as to how Clement will continue to kind of manage
10:25 the squad going forward.
10:26 We know he's obviously been heavily rotating
10:29 that team over the last couple of weeks
10:31 and to good effect.
10:32 Some fans have kind of questioned why would you
10:35 make so many changes when certain players
10:37 have been playing so well?
10:38 But, you know, I think with the kind of players
10:41 he's got at his disposal at this moment in time,
10:43 I think, you know, he's still putting his own stamp
10:45 on things and, you know, we will see more changes
10:48 over the summer, but I think he's doing a terrific job
10:51 with what he's got at this moment in time.
10:53 And as I said, if they steer clear of injuries,
10:56 I think there'll be strong, strong favorites
10:59 to go and win the trophy this year.
11:01 - Rangers obviously out of all the quarterfinals
11:06 with respect to the other teams,
11:07 and that Rangers of the teams that have gone through
11:09 clearly had the most difficult tie
11:10 having to go to Easter Road.
11:12 And they overcame it, you know, not certainly not with ease,
11:16 but with professionalism, I think.
11:18 And I would certainly make them favorites
11:23 for the tournament now, just based off of the way,
11:28 the way Celtic are sort of teetering at the moment on,
11:33 it feels like they're just maybe one or two kind of thing,
11:38 like things going against them away
11:40 from maybe a total collapse.
11:43 We're gonna take a short break now,
11:45 but we'll be right back after the break
11:46 to discuss more of the Scottish Cup semifinals.
11:49 Welcome back.
12:08 So, Hearts guys requested a 50/50 ticket split
12:13 for the semifinal Rangers.
12:15 Aberdeen have followed suit doing that.
12:18 This is a debate that just won't go away
12:22 as much as it feels like Celtic and Rangers
12:26 want it to go away.
12:27 The SFA presumably want it to go away as well.
12:30 They just want things their own way,
12:31 but it feels like the clubs like Aberdeen, Hearts,
12:36 also Hems, maybe even some of the other clubs,
12:39 they're not gonna let this go away.
12:40 I'm really interested to get your guys' opinion on it.
12:44 Starting with yourself, Lewis,
12:47 what do you think is the right way
12:49 to approach ticket allocations?
12:51 'Cause let's make no mistake,
12:53 Aberdeen aren't gonna take 24,000 fans to Hamden
12:58 for the semifinal.
12:59 There's no evidence to suggest
13:02 that that's suddenly going to happen,
13:04 but do you think there should still,
13:06 that the ticket allocation should start,
13:09 at the very least, should start on a 50/50 split,
13:12 and then the kind of shift towards giving more
13:16 to Celtic or Rangers should only happen
13:19 once it does become apparent that the smaller club,
13:22 for lack of a better term,
13:24 aren't going to sell out their allocation?
13:26 - Well, that is the kind of the big issue here,
13:30 because obviously we're dealing with two clubs,
13:33 Aberdeen and Hearts, who outside of the old firm
13:35 have two of the biggest fan bases in Scotland.
13:39 That's clear as day, we all know that.
13:41 So I can totally understand that Aberdeen
13:46 want that 50/50 split.
13:49 I think for me, when it comes to big games,
13:53 Aberdeen fans notoriously turn up in their numbers.
13:56 We know that.
13:57 Now, whether or not they'd sell out 24,000, as you said,
14:00 inside a 50,000-seater stadium,
14:04 given the way that they're currently playing,
14:07 I wouldn't be so sure.
14:09 However, I do believe that when it comes to games
14:13 of this magnitude, same with Hearts,
14:17 when it comes to Rangers,
14:18 I genuinely think that the 50/50 split
14:21 is the right way to go.
14:23 I think, obviously, a lot is made about fans
14:27 being the 12th man.
14:28 And for example, a few years ago,
14:30 we had Inverness reaching the final of a competition.
14:35 They were never gonna take anywhere near
14:38 over 10,000, 15,000.
14:41 It's not a great spectacle, is it,
14:45 when you've got a half-empty stadium
14:47 for a showcase final.
14:50 As I said, I think we're dealing with
14:54 four of the biggest teams in Scotland.
14:56 I think, for me, the 50/50 split is the right way to go
15:01 for these two games.
15:02 I think it'll make for a better atmosphere.
15:05 And I think, I do understand when it comes
15:08 to Celtic and Rangers, they do have the biggest support
15:11 in the league.
15:13 And when they are playing against, as you said,
15:16 so-called lesser teams at the national stadium,
15:20 then I do understand the point of view.
15:22 But I think in this case, I think 50/50
15:25 is the right way to go for these two matches in particular.
15:28 - Even if you want to take it on a case-by-case basis,
15:32 I think that the Hearts/Rangers should be a 50/50 split,
15:36 and it should only be one if it becomes apparent
15:39 that Hearts aren't gonna sell 24, 25,000 tickets
15:43 for that game.
15:44 Then we can start looking at shifting more
15:45 to the Rangers support.
15:46 Aberdeen is slightly different.
15:48 Aberdeen have been to enough semifinals
15:50 over the past decade that I think we know
15:53 there aren't gonna be 24,000 Aberdeen fans there.
15:55 We're gonna see something in the region of somewhere
15:59 between 12 and 18,000 more likely.
16:02 But I still don't think that anyone for a game
16:06 that is meant to be neutral, not the tournament organizers
16:09 and certainly not the other clubs, should be dictating
16:12 that Aberdeen don't at least get the chance
16:15 to sell those 50% of the tickets from the off.
16:18 Where do you stand on it then?
16:20 - No, I sort of agree.
16:23 Sorry, I sort of agree with that.
16:24 I think they should be given at least from the outset,
16:27 50/50, I do agree that Hearts/Rangers is probably,
16:31 it's probably the bigger talking point in this
16:33 because I think Hearts, I think with the kickoff time
16:35 as well, I mean, the way these kickoff times
16:37 have usually landed, it has been Aberdeen
16:39 who have pulled the short straw of having
16:42 the early kickoff.
16:43 I know in the Viaplay Cup semifinal when they played Hibs,
16:48 they had the later kickoff, but it's different
16:50 kettle of fish tickets for that game
16:52 aren't as gonna be as in demand in terms of fan bases
16:55 and things like that as when you put one of the old
16:58 firm in the mix.
16:59 So I do think that game's a bit different,
17:01 especially if you do end up being even maybe even say
17:04 a one o'clock kickoff on a Saturday,
17:06 that's gonna reduce the Aberdeen support.
17:09 And I think it'll probably impact as well with games
17:11 on the BBC if that, 'cause then the BBC,
17:14 I think in the case BBC will get one
17:17 and the Viaplay will get two of them,
17:18 but one of the games will be exclusive.
17:20 So if the Viaplay exclusive game is in Aberdeen,
17:25 so then that'll probably impact on the ticket
17:28 and situation as well.
17:30 So I think it's more for Hearts versus Rangers.
17:32 I think Hearts are showing with their season ticket sales,
17:36 most games at Tyne Castle never sold out on a Saturday
17:39 for regular run of the mill games against
17:41 our provincial clubs.
17:43 I think the fact that they'll likely have a more favorable
17:46 kickoff team and they're also in better form as well.
17:51 There's probably more excitement about Hearts,
17:54 potentially this is our year and things like that,
17:56 even that factor coming in,
17:57 whereas Aberdeen sort of maybe are already sort of thinking,
18:01 maybe negatively thinking glass half full,
18:02 we're here to make up the numbers types
18:04 and certainly the weakest team out of the four.
18:06 And so, yeah, I think it should be 50/50 in general
18:10 just to start with.
18:11 And then once it becomes apparent, Aberdeen or Hearts,
18:15 if it does get to that, that they can't sell
18:17 that allocation, then you start maybe trawling back
18:20 a thousand if they then can't sell whatever's left of that
18:23 and all the thousands, so on and so forth.
18:26 - Yeah, I actually take a more hard line approach on it,
18:30 just with my personal view.
18:32 I think it should be a 50/50 ticket split end of,
18:35 and if one team doesn't sell out their 50% of the tickets,
18:39 well, tough luck.
18:41 It's a neutral venue and you don't get to have
18:44 more fans there just because you're a bigger club.
18:46 That's my opinion on it.
18:48 I know that will be hugely unpopular and not practical
18:52 and just leaving money sitting on the table.
18:55 But at the end of the day, I think it comes down more
18:57 to sporting integrity than anything.
18:59 And listen, there's been plenty of examples in the past
19:04 that haven't involved just Celtic Rangers.
19:07 I think if you look back to Aberdeen's last cup triumph,
19:09 which came in 2014 and it was at Parkhead
19:12 because Hamden was being redeveloped at the time,
19:16 and they were playing Inverness and Aberdeen took,
19:20 I can't remember the exact number,
19:22 but it was substantial of nearly 30,000, if not more.
19:27 And Inverness took, I think, less than 10,000.
19:31 But it's different because Celtic Park
19:35 is a bigger venue than Hamden and Aberdeen still,
19:39 like would they have gotten more than 50% of the tickets
19:43 had they actually somehow had the numbers
19:46 to fill out more than half of Parkhead?
19:49 I don't know, probably, but I still don't think that's right.
19:54 I don't think it's right when it happens
19:56 for Celtic Rangers either.
19:58 It's a neutral venue and that means more than just
20:03 this isn't the home stadium of either of these clubs.
20:06 It means that this game needs to be played with neutrality
20:11 at the heart of how you approach things like ticket sales.
20:16 Otherwise, what happens if Celtic Rangers
20:22 are playing a team from League Two or League One?
20:25 What happens if East Fife go on a incredible run
20:30 to the cup final next year and take,
20:33 what are we saying, the population of Methil?
20:36 I mean, what are they gonna take, like 2,000 supporters say?
20:40 Should we just then go, well, let's give Celtic
20:43 and/or Rangers, what, 30,000, 40,000 tickets
20:48 because they will sell them?
20:49 Is that right?
20:51 'Cause that just effectively makes it a home game.
20:54 And like you say, yes, you can say, well,
20:57 Aberdeen and Hearts and Hibs, they're big clubs
21:00 and they should be able to sell it.
21:01 And if their fans don't want to go, yeah, okay.
21:05 I can see that argument too.
21:07 We're not talking about a lower league club
21:10 from a small town that only has a small population.
21:15 We're talking about clubs that view themselves
21:18 as either the third biggest team in the country
21:20 or in the conversation for the third biggest team
21:24 in the country.
21:25 So you would think you should be able to sell out
21:29 half the national stadium for a cup semifinal
21:31 and certainly for a cup final.
21:34 And if you can't, well, that's your own supporters
21:37 letting you down.
21:38 But as Ben mentioned, to a lesser extent,
21:42 Hearts and Hibs coming, I think at the end of the day,
21:45 just it isn't right to give one club more of an allocation
21:50 than another just because they have a bigger fan base.
21:55 But again, I know that's a hard line approach
21:58 and it won't be popular and there won't be a lot of people
22:01 who agree with it, that the softer approach, as we've said,
22:03 is give teams 50/50, then once it becomes obvious
22:08 that they're not gonna sell their 50,
22:10 then we start moving towards 55/45, 60/40,
22:15 maybe even 65/35.
22:18 And there are other things as well.
22:20 Like you say, well, what about like just the optics
22:22 of this game that's gonna be broadcast all over the world
22:26 and someone tunes into what's supposed to be
22:28 a showpiece match and sees empty seats
22:31 at the National Stadium?
22:32 I'd imagine that would be something that probably
22:35 the people in charge of delegating these tickets,
22:39 that that is an argument they would have.
22:40 But to be honest with you, I would argue,
22:43 how much better does it actually look
22:45 when you put Sky Sports on and you tune into Livingston
22:49 against Rangers and you have to double check,
22:51 sorry, that this is a home match for Livingston
22:54 because all you can see is a sea of blue
22:57 or a sea of green and white filling out three quarters
23:00 of the Tony Macaroni Arena.
23:01 Does that look better for our game?
23:05 I think it just highlights our reliance
23:08 on the two biggest clubs to sell these tickets.
23:11 But this isn't a debate that's going anywhere
23:14 anytime soon and we don't actually.
23:16 - I just wanna know, Martin, what you really feel about it.
23:19 (Martin laughing)
23:21 - Sorry, how long did I go on for there?
23:23 But this isn't a debate that's going anywhere
23:26 anytime soon and we don't actually.
23:29 You know, we don't have all day on this show
23:31 to talk about it, but I'm sure when we get back
23:34 to the semi-finals in a few weeks time,
23:36 that this debate could potentially rear its head.
23:40 But that is all we've got time for.
23:42 Thanks very much for joining me this week, guys.
23:44 We'll be back next week for another episode of Football Talk.
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