Fitbaw Talk: What should Steve Clarke have done instead?
Martyn, Lewis and Barry have returned from a short spell in Germany to run through how Scotland should 've tackled the Euros.
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00:00Hello and welcome to National World Fitbit Talk, your nan's favourite football podcast
00:11Ken. We're back for a new season and we're starting off with this special episode discussing
00:16Steve Clarke's future as Scotland manager after what can only be described as a disappointing
00:21Euro 2024 campaign. I'm your host Martin Simpson, joined by my colleagues Barry Anderson
00:26and Lewis Anderson and we're going to get straight into it. Just simply before we go
00:32into detail, maybe give the working behind our thinking, just want to ask you both quickly
00:38your initial thoughts. Is Steve Clarke still the right man to take Scotland forward? Lewis?
00:44It's a difficult one Martin. For me I think personally it's time for change. I think Clarke's
00:55done a tremendous job with the national team. He's taken us on leaps and bounds from where
00:59we were over the last four or five years, getting us to two major tournaments. However,
01:06I was really disappointed over the course of the three games during the group stage
01:12campaign with some of his tactics. I thought it was a really negative approach and I didn't
01:19feel like he utilised the squad as well as he maybe should have at certain times. I know
01:26he was heavily criticised for a lot of the substitutions he made relatively late in both
01:32the Switzerland and Hungary games. I just kind of feel like we're maybe at the end of
01:40the road with Clarke now. I know he's still got the contract in place until after the
01:46World Cup 2026. Let's be frank about this, the Scottish FA won't remove him from his
01:54position. It'll be down to him whether or not he feels he can continue to get the best
01:59out of this squad going forward over the next campaign or so.
02:04Barry?
02:05For myself I would make a change at the moment. I just think it's the right time. I can see
02:12both sides of this from a fan's perspective. As Lewis touched on, the disappointment over
02:16in Germany in all three games, but certainly that final game against Hungary when you know
02:21you're having to win the game. The team is really sitting deep, sitting in, almost playing
02:27on the counter-attack. We make a change up front but we take one striker off and put
02:31one on instead of going two up top and trying to go for it, 15 minutes to go. That was really
02:36hard to take in the manner of the exit. I felt that again for this kind of second tournament
02:41in a row, Scotland haven't quite done themselves justice. I think it's important to mention
02:47that Steve Clarke's been a terrific Scotland manager, qualified for two successive tournaments,
02:52so that's up there with your Andy Roxburghs, Craig Browns, Jock Steens, all that sort of
02:56thing in terms of his qualification record. But at both tournaments we haven't justified
03:03ourselves, we haven't really laid a glove on very many teams. If you look at Euro 2020,
03:09lost the first game, drew the second, lost the third. Same this time, lost the first game,
03:13drew the second, lost the third. So we've kind of gone out with a whimper and I just feel that
03:18I would like something a little bit fresher and a wee bit more adventurous in terms of the Scotland
03:22side. The other side of the coin is the SFA, again Lewis has touched on this, the SFA will
03:27look at it and say well we waited years, 20 odd years to find a manager who could get Scotland
03:32to major tournaments. We've now got one, why do we want to get rid of them? If you're measuring
03:37Scotland's success as qualification for major tournaments then we are successful but I personally
03:44think that we could do a little bit more. I'm not expecting Scotland to be going and reaching finals
03:47or lifting trophies but I think we could do a little bit more than we have done in the last
03:51two tournaments in terms of trying to get out of the group. Personally I would look at bringing
03:57someone else in. I don't see it happening, I'll be brutally honest but that's just my own opinion.
04:02I mean we've spoken about managers a lot on this show in the past and I've always stood by the
04:08kind of principle that who better is out there is never a good argument but in this instance we've
04:14got a manager in Davey Moyes who is currently out of work, who is one of the greatest managers in
04:23the history of the Premier League. You look at the success he's had, he's did so well for so long
04:30and he's won a European trophy with West Ham. It didn't work out particularly well at Manchester
04:35United but then who has it worked out well for at Manchester United since Fergie left?
04:42Do you think that pressure factors in? I mean people have said would Davey Moyes want the job
04:48Lewis but I'm fairly certain, unless I'm misremembering this, he has been quite open in
04:53the past, throughout the years he said at some point he would like to manage the Scotland men's
04:58national team and I don't know, I'm wondering maybe just that sort of looming spectre, for lack
05:06of a better term, if you're Steve Clarke knowing that there's someone who potentially could take
05:11this team to the next level, just they are unavailable. I mean what do you think? I'm
05:18sort of wondering is it possible, we've got the Nations League fixtures coming up before World
05:24Cup qualifying, I think Steve Clarke's probably at least earned the chance to kind of right what he
05:32got wrong at the Euros in those matches maybe? Yeah I think that's a good point, as you said
05:40the Nations League games were playing Portugal, Croatia and Poland, you know three top nations,
05:47perhaps Croatia team on the slide, Poland's results have certainly been pretty mixed over
05:53the last couple of years, so you'd be hopeful going into that with this group of players that
05:58we have, that with potentially a new manager in place that we can kind of really
06:07kick on again. I think Davy Moyes would be a really good candidate, he has spoken openly as
06:14he's mentioned about wanting the job before, I think he's kind of mentioned how he still wants
06:18to be involved in club management for a while longer, but you know now might be as good a
06:25time as ever for him, he's been inheriting a really good group of players who I think have been
06:31held back a wee bit by Clarke, we know in particular he's got his favourites, I think
06:37Davy Moyes was speaking on the BBC the other week there about Scotland's need to try and
06:45address the issues with the number of youth players we've got coming through the 21 set-up,
06:51in particular something that we've struggled to do for quite a number of years now,
06:57you know not producing the players that we need to be, and I feel like Davy Moyes would be the
07:02kind of like-minded, forward-thinking type of coach that could really take this team on
07:10going forward, you know some of his football, I know he was heavily criticised by some section
07:17of the West Ham fans for the style of football that he kind of implemented down there,
07:23but you know it was effective as you said, he took us West Ham probably as far as a club like that
07:29are realistically going to go and win a major European title, so no I think it would be a
07:36very good appointment, Davy Moyes, and as you said there's not many other candidates
07:42that really jump out to you at this stage. Yeah I think after Davy Moyes you're looking
07:48down the list, probably the only other name I've really seen mentioned is Derek McInnes,
07:54and I just kind of look at that and I think that's quite possibly the least ambitious appointment
08:00the SFA could make if they were to, I think getting rid of Steve Clark would,
08:07there's not 100% of the fan base would be on board with that, but I think if you got rid of him
08:12just to take in Derek McInnes, that to me I think just completely, the section of the
08:20quite large vocal section of the Scotland fan base that do want to see change now,
08:25they want it because they expect a more ambitious appointment like Davy Moyes rather than just
08:31going and getting the Kilmarnock boss again because he's had what can only be, with respect
08:38to Derek McInnes and everything he's achieved in the SPFL, what could only be described as
08:42relative success I would say with Kilmarnock, he hasn't won a trophy, he's got them out of
08:50the championship and into the top six, that's an achievement, I'm not trying to undermine it,
08:54but it's not the levels I'm looking at when I'm thinking of the national team manager,
08:59but Barry, Lewis touched on Davy Moyes' tactics at West Ham and how some of the West Ham fans
09:07kind of turned on him for that and it's understandable because West Ham have some
09:12fantastic attacking players, I got the chance to see them, to go to London Stadium and watch
09:18Liverpool, West Ham, a 2-2 draw, Mohamed Kudus for example was a player I was hugely impressed
09:24with, Scotland of course don't have free-flowing world-class attacking midfielders, what we do have
09:32are players that lend themselves well, as Steve Clarke has proved, to a more defensive system,
09:39so I wonder if it makes sense to kind of, in many ways Moyes might be the perfect appointment because
09:46he can come in and play the style of system that's going to suit our players well.
09:53Yeah, in some ways I think so Martin, he would certainly be quite similar to Steve Clarke in
10:00terms of his kind of pragmatic approach to things and as you say that has relative success for
10:07Scotland in terms of qualifying for tournaments, so would he be an option, I'm not personally
10:12convinced that he wants to take the job right at this minute, I still think he's looking for
10:15another club job and then the Scotland job might be something that he looks at as a kind of swan
10:20song for his career in three, four, five years time maybe and one thing that I think the Scotland job
10:25needs is a coach who can get the best out of players, whether they be good players or average
10:32players, so you'd be looking at somebody off the top of my head, somebody that I think is good at
10:39that particular style of management is Stephen Robinson at St Mirren, I'm not suggesting the
10:45St Mirren manager should be the Scotland manager right away, I mean you could make the best argument
10:50in the world for that Barry and you would still have people up in arms of Stephen Robinson,
10:54but your argument's still sound. Yeah, I just think he's somebody, you look at what he's done
11:01with St Mirren, what he did in Motherwell before that, he obviously, he rings every last drop out
11:06of every player and he's very good at that, one thing I've watched closely over the years, he does
11:10get a lot out of sometimes very average footballers with no disrespect, so that would work well in a
11:18Scottish context for the national team, but again you'd be looking at it and saying well surely you
11:22want somebody who's coming from a bigger club to take the national job, I think the Scotland job
11:26has now kind of been pigeonholed into, as I say, almost not a retirement job, but you know something
11:33that you do when you're closer to retirement, I think someday Stephen Robinson's age, another one
11:37that could spring to mind, Alec Neil for example, I don't think any of them would be wanting the
11:41Scotland jobs now, I think they'd be focused on club business and then if they're going to take
11:45an international job it may come later in their careers. We're just going to take a short break
11:50now but we'll be right back.
12:04Welcome back, so just for anyone that's been living under a rock during the Euros and maybe
12:09doesn't quite understand just why so much of the Tartan army is starting to turn on Stevie Clark,
12:17given how popular he has been in recent years, we just we need to talk about just how
12:23wrong he got his tactics pretty much potentially in all three games, obviously we got the draw with
12:31Switzerland and as we sit here the Swiss have just knocked the tournament holders Italy out,
12:38albeit one of the dreadful performance from the Italians, but the Switzerland played what was
12:43in front of them and played well, so it was no mean feat getting a point against them, but
12:49we all had a little bit of optimism that we're good enough to cause an upset and if we'd have
12:56lost that game two or even three nil, I think no one really would have came away from it that
13:02disappointed, but to lose that game in the manner they did, knowing that it was the opening match
13:08of the tournament, it was the opening game of the tournament, it was the opening game of the
13:13to lose that game in the manner they did, knowing that it was the opening match of the tournament
13:19and you effectively had nothing to lose and I'm not saying Scotland should have gone out and just
13:25been all out attack from the off because obviously Germany would have picked them off, but the eyes
13:31of the world are on us and we just brought nothing to the table as far as I was concerned, what did
13:36you think? It was hugely disappointing when the team sheet came out, I remember looking at it and
13:43thinking to myself, I thought it was almost nailed on apart from Billy Gilmore who I would have had,
13:51I think he's the future of the national team, I think he's one of the first names on the team
13:56sheet going forward for me because he proved in the two games against Switzerland and Hungary
14:02that he used his class on the ball, a really calm head and we were completely overrun in the
14:08midfield which is obviously supposed to be our strongest area isn't it, the national team
14:14were packed full of quality in there supposedly, but it was hugely disappointing
14:19and from an early doors, the writing was on the wall after 25-30 minutes and you think to
14:27yourself, well if you were Steve Clarke you'd be looking at it and saying right well maybe at half
14:33time and I know there was some fans even calling for change after half an hour or so in that game,
14:39but you're thinking at least make a couple of changes at half time because with Ryan Porteous
14:45getting himself sent off, we were firmly backs against the wall, it was a case of damage limitation
14:52and they just completely overrun us in the end, it was hugely disappointing
14:58opening the Euros, you're looking to obviously try and create a positive
15:04early impression, we knew Germany were going to be up for the game, I know their record
15:10in opening major tournaments in the past hasn't been great, but we just didn't lay a glove
15:18on them at all and yeah I mean it was the same with Clarke in all three games, I'm sure we'll
15:24go on to touch on it, but he didn't utilise the bench anywhere near as well as he should have.
15:31Barry, not so much we really need to go into on the Switzerland game, but I think the Hungary
15:37game is the one that we really need to dissect because to me there is no way to make the tactical
15:44approach to that game make sense, what do you think? Yeah I think it's spot on, I understand
15:52why he would start slightly cautiously in that game, okay it's the game that Scotland need to
15:57win, but you don't want to go gung-ho, hell for leather from the first minute and you end up losing
16:01a goal and then you're chasing the game, so I don't have too much issue with that. As the game
16:06went on and you've got a situation where in the second half, firstly in the first half Scotland
16:13were simply not really laying a glove on the Hungarians and it was a, the Hungarians had
16:19underperformed themselves up until that point and were staring at an exit, so you should have had
16:24them on the back foot and been a bit more adventurous even within your five-man defence and
16:30four-man midfield. The second half comes and we're really not pushing the boat out at all,
16:36it's nil-nil, we need a goal to go through, we're going out on two points so it draws no good to us,
16:41likewise Hungary. And the thing for me, as I said it touched on earlier, when you're making a sub
16:47and you've taken Shea Adams off and you've brought Lorne Shankland on, when you're, you know, 15
16:53minutes to go you're needing to go for it and we're still reluctant to put two forwards on the
16:57park, I just didn't get that at all at that stage, for me that's the time when you stick Shankland on
17:02with Adams or you stick Shankland and Conway on, Tommy Conway, and you try and freshen it up,
17:09add some legs in, get in behind them, whatever, you know, there's just a few different options,
17:12I'm quite happy, I'm sure Steve Clarke can pick them himself, but having that sort of insistence
17:19on still being defensive and trying to hold things out and camped in our own half and just not having
17:24enough wherewithal in the final third, that was really disappointing and then when the goal went
17:29in it's just, it's a kick in the guts beat, it's a kick in the guts that you saw coming. I walked
17:34out of the stadium that night in Stuttgart at one point, on one hand I was shell-shocked,
17:38but on the other hand I was like, we all saw this coming, a lot of Scotland fans were saying the
17:42same thing, it was predictable, so yeah, I just didn't quite get the reluctance to throw another
17:51forward on and actually go and attack and try and seize the initiative in the game and get
17:54ourselves ahead and then defend a lead if you want to. Yeah, see, I'm with you in that I didn't mind
18:01starting the game in our usual sort of tactical formation and cautiousness and I would have liked
18:09to have seen Shanklin start but I didn't mind Adam starting and the way we kind of approached
18:13the first half was, it's like okay, control possession, press high, you know, try and crowd
18:21around their defenders and then, but it was the sort of, just the complete unwillingness to sort
18:29of take any risk whatsoever, even the littlest one, even just a ball over the top or just,
18:36you know, going while the play's moving instead of just sending it back to Angus Gunn again and
18:42trying to get back in your shape and build the play and you're thinking, but right, okay, no,
18:47I would have taken, I was happy with 0-0 at half-time even though we hadn't troubled them
18:52because I'm thinking now we can sort of just press the issue a bit more and then we don't
18:58and then in Steve Clark's mind, again, make it make sense, we go from 0 to instead of just being
19:07like, right, let's swap Adams for Shanklin or let's swap Gilmore for Christie, it just felt
19:14like the game went from nothing to all-out attack, it went from park the bus to all-out attack without
19:22sort of gradually building towards, okay, we need a goal, let's up the pressure, we kind of
19:28started playing as if it was the 85th minute and it was 0-0 at around about the hour mark
19:33rather than just kind of building and being gradually more positive as the need for a goal
19:38grew and that was the thing I didn't, I really didn't understand. And yeah, 17 efforts on goal
19:48across the three games. Yeah, it's not good enough. I think it was just that pathetic.
19:53It is, it's utterly pathetic Lewis, you're right. And then Steve Clark comes out and he has a go at
19:58the referee and he starts talking about nationalities and all this sort of rubbish and
20:04I think it's that moment where we've kind of liked Steve Clark's kind of, his close nature,
20:13the fact he doesn't give anything away, he's quite stoic and we've kind of grown to like that
20:20and then after the match you get this and when he finally starts showing a bit of emotion,
20:25it's clearly just directed at the wrong person and instead of taking any kind of account for
20:32clearly what was his tactical blunder throughout the entire tournament,
20:36he goes after the officials. It's not a good look, is it?
20:40No, it's not, it's not. And I think as well, it was just so disappointing, as you said.
20:49I mean, there's such a sense of deflation on the back of it, the opportunity to go there,
20:55create history, how easy are they making it nowadays? You can qualify from finishing third
21:01in your group. It was there for us, it was all there for us against a Hungarian team who
21:07really flattered to deceive, you know, they were bigging up the Hungarians before the tournament
21:12has been one of the best groups they've had since the Pushkash area. We made a big hullabaloo
21:17in the build-up to the tournament about the difficulty of naming a 26-man squad.
21:22Clark could have gone with 18 players and be happy enough with that. I was hugely disappointed
21:28that we didn't see certain players introduced at certain times in each game. Tommy Conway,
21:36for example. It would have been nice to have had one eye on the future. You might not play these
21:42guys, you know, even if you'd included guys like Lennon Miller in the squad, they might not have
21:48played much football, if at all. But in terms of experience for them going forward,
21:53you've got guys like Ryan Jack. Was Ryan Jack getting out of this? Absolutely nothing.
21:59Hasn't kicked a ball for Rangers all season. So disappointed that there weren't a sprinkling of
22:05youngsters involved in and around the squad as well, because I think we need to be obviously
22:11looking towards the future now. Just as a quick final point, Barry,
22:18I don't get the feeling, based on what I've heard Steve Clark say since we've been knocked out of
22:23the tournament, that he's suddenly going to listen to what the supporters are saying,
22:27like what Lewis has just said. Our next game is Poland at Hampden in the Nations League.
22:33If he goes out with the same basic 23-26 man group of players that you would expect that
22:41would be the first players that come to your mind, goes out, sets up like he did against Hungary,
22:46and we lose to Poland, I get the feeling that Hampden are going to let him know about that
22:52at full time. What do you think? Yeah, I think so. I think it's a really precarious situation
22:57because we are in this Group A of the Nations League and the opponents are strong and Scotland
23:02aren't at their best right now. I think probably under Steve Clark they peaked at 20-23 and now
23:07we've come off that quite a bit. So yeah, I think that this could be really difficult,
23:11these games home and away against top nations in Group A of the Nations League. So yeah,
23:18I can see that scenario unfolding where it's uninspiring and it's camped in and it's just
23:24simply not offensive enough for the Tartan Army's liking and that would certainly increase the heat.
23:30So I think there's a really interesting few months here for Scotland ahead.
23:35Well, that's all we've got time for. We'll be back next week to discuss
23:39just a quick look at the transfer window so far and a preview of the Scottish League Cup.
23:43But this week, thank you Barry, thank you Lewis. I hope you enjoyed the show.