• 8 months ago
Yourcinemafilms.com | Creative director, writer, all-round creative Akwasi Poku (The Therapist, Black Ops, Black Mirror, The Kitchen) shares his experience of 'not really being in the industry' and how to leverage your career further when you land an agent!

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00:00 (upbeat music)
00:01 Now everyone's making it in film and TV,
00:03 but we don't really know how.
00:06 Here, we uncover the truth.
00:08 Welcome to the Your Cinema Podcast.
00:10 (upbeat music)
00:12 Welcome to the Your Cinema Podcast today.
00:15 It's the place where we explore the truth
00:18 about the industry, film, TV, and theater,
00:22 and we hear it directly from those
00:24 who are smashing it in their fields as well.
00:27 Today, we've got someone who in my mind
00:31 and in my eyes is definitely a pioneer and a big talent.
00:36 He's worked on "Black Mirror," "Black Ops," "The Kitchen,"
00:42 as well as his own groundbreaking shorts,
00:44 "Lock Off" and "The Therapist."
00:47 And to be fair, I've only scratched the surface
00:50 because he's done loads of projects and campaigns
00:55 with organizations like Nike and FIFA.
00:58 So yeah.
00:59 And what's funny about all of those credits
01:04 and the projects that he's done
01:07 is really he is only getting started,
01:10 and it's amazing to have him here today.
01:13 So I welcome Akwesipoku.
01:16 What's going on, bro?
01:17 - I'm all good, I'm all good.
01:18 How are you doing, Pierre?
01:19 - I'm very good, man.
01:21 It's a pleasure, pleasure, pleasure to have you.
01:25 Yeah, I saw "The Therapist" and the next day or two,
01:28 I was like, "Yo, what are you guys doing is amazing."
01:33 Like, I think habitually I tend to group you
01:38 and Abdu together, but definitely amazing creatives
01:42 like respectively as well.
01:44 So yeah, it's amazing to have you.
01:47 I'm gonna start and go straight in, right?
01:50 Because you've done,
01:53 it feels like you've done so much, right?
01:55 Especially when you look at the level of work
01:58 that you've done and put out.
02:02 I wanna know, when did you first start
02:06 even wanting to get into film and TV?
02:08 - Oh, wow, okay.
02:09 So I think for myself, if I think when was that moment,
02:14 I'd probably have to go back to being a kid.
02:18 And I remember probably the main thing
02:22 that sticks in my mind or the first thing that comes to mind
02:24 is the old school Nike adverts.
02:26 So we're talking like 1995, 1996.
02:30 I remember there was the advert of Edgar Davids
02:33 and when he's running through and then his locks,
02:37 basically they kind of go around
02:39 and then it triggers the laser.
02:41 And I remember seeing that and being like,
02:43 "Wow, how?"
02:46 And that for me was probably one of the most,
02:50 I think, potent images if I think about
02:53 seeing something that was cool, it was sick,
02:55 it was all these footballers.
02:58 And I think, yeah, and it had a profound moment
03:03 in my life with regards to that's really cool.
03:06 And then I think the next probably moment
03:08 was when I was about,
03:09 I think I would have been 12 or 13.
03:12 And I think it was "Spider-Man."
03:14 I don't know if it was the first one or the second one,
03:15 I remember going to Odie and Surrey Keys,
03:19 my brother and his girlfriend,
03:20 they took me to go and watch "Spider-Man."
03:22 And I remember just like, again, being in the cinema
03:25 and seeing this world.
03:27 And when you're younger,
03:29 well, I don't know, I still probably have it now,
03:30 but that moment after you leave,
03:33 you watch a massive film,
03:35 you feel like the person, you've got the powers almost.
03:38 - Yeah.
03:39 - I remember feeling like "Spider-Man,"
03:42 like Peter Parker, like, "Oh, this is crazy."
03:46 And it's a bit crazy 'cause my first job
03:47 was actually in a cinema.
03:49 So I used to work at like,
03:51 viewing the O2, mad funny, funniest job.
03:55 'Cause it's like, you think it was like sick,
03:58 but you're just like, sweeping up popcorn
03:59 and then like in college,
04:01 trying not to get seen by people.
04:03 (both laughing)
04:04 But again, I remember going in and being like 16, 17
04:08 and going into one of the screens.
04:11 And I remember like, yeah, going in
04:14 and really like, I think it was a Bollywood film.
04:18 I remember going in and being like,
04:20 "Right, I have no idea about this world."
04:23 But like, they've managed to kind of like,
04:25 have this audience.
04:26 And I remember looking and seeing the sound
04:29 and the camera and then, you know, when you're younger
04:32 and you haven't really had the chance
04:33 to really think about like, how you get into that.
04:37 But I remember being like, "Oh, like, do I get a camera?
04:40 "Do I like, do I do this sound?"
04:45 I just didn't know what it was,
04:46 but I just knew I loved the world
04:47 and the feeling I got from being in that space.
04:50 And then I think like,
04:51 the thing that probably cemented it for me,
04:54 I mean, there's been loads of things
04:55 'cause my career has been a bit interesting
04:57 where there was a moment
04:59 where I really wanted to be a director.
05:01 And then I kind of like, was a part of this competition
05:04 and I didn't win it when I was like 21, I think I was.
05:08 And I don't know, I think at the time,
05:10 this was being what, 20, what year we in now?
05:14 2011, that would have been, 2011, 2012.
05:17 So it's 21, 22.
05:19 And I remember being a part of this competition
05:20 and yeah, man, like I didn't,
05:23 like I think everyone was like, "Oh, you're gonna win.
05:25 "You're gonna get this.
05:26 "Oh, you're gonna."
05:26 And I think that kind of like, you know,
05:29 it's that kind of thing as a footballer, you know?
05:30 Like, you know, sometimes people can,
05:33 they celebrate before they've actually got the trophy.
05:35 And I think I did that.
05:36 And then I remember getting the call from the mentor
05:40 that was running it all, Neil Bedford,
05:42 amazing photographer.
05:44 And he's like, "Quest man, I don't know how to put this."
05:47 (laughs)
05:48 And it was kind of like, you know,
05:50 that it was that first time when we all taken Ls,
05:53 but it was a first big L that I took.
05:57 And like, now looking back here, it wasn't that big,
06:00 but it felt like, it literally, I was like,
06:02 "I'm never picking up a camera again.
06:04 "I'm not directing, F the industry."
06:06 (laughs)
06:07 Yeah, which is all crazy.
06:09 And like, I look back at it now and I was like,
06:11 "Rah, I think, yeah, it literally stopped me
06:15 "picking up a camera for a few years."
06:16 And then I think I focused on,
06:18 I think at the time I was just like,
06:21 "Okay, what can I focus on?
06:22 "How can I, you know, do something that's still creative,
06:25 "still be in the industry and also learn?"
06:27 Because I realized that I did have inadequacies.
06:29 So I ended up falling into the world of advertising
06:34 and, you know, great industry, learned a lot.
06:37 But I think it has its pros and its cons.
06:43 But then there was always this thing of like,
06:46 directing, like, you know,
06:47 like the angel with the devil on your shoulder?
06:49 (laughs)
06:50 It's both of them.
06:51 (laughs)
06:52 Like, directing, directing in my ear.
06:53 So yeah, I think they were both,
06:55 they were both, they were all speaking.
06:56 And eventually myself and Abs,
06:59 we were doing a lot of side projects.
07:02 And bit by bit, like,
07:04 we just started putting stuff out into the world.
07:06 And I think, yeah,
07:08 I've definitely skipped about like 15 years.
07:10 (laughs)
07:11 Yeah, we ended up where we needed to end it up, so.
07:13 - Yeah.
07:14 No, I love that.
07:15 Thank you for the summary, man.
07:17 And it makes sense that you also have a background
07:20 in advertising.
07:22 Not that it's even like necessary or anything like that,
07:25 but just for the understanding that you guys have.
07:31 Like, when I look at the way you guys release projects,
07:36 I'm like, oh, get it.
07:40 These guys, get it.
07:42 - Yeah.
07:42 - 'Cause they're not just,
07:44 it's not just like,
07:47 like you just, yeah, you just understand it.
07:50 Like you are, you understand that there's a process.
07:53 The film is part of the process kind of thing.
07:56 - Yeah, yeah.
07:57 Everything's baked in.
07:58 - Yeah, I love that.
08:00 And I learn from it, like when you guys do stuff,
08:03 like I really do, it's really inspiring, man.
08:05 - Yeah.
08:06 - So with that, right,
08:09 what would you say,
08:11 and this can be after, this might be before or whichever,
08:14 but what would you say was like your first serious project?
08:18 - Ooh, my first serious project.
08:23 I had to think about this.
08:25 So is that in filmmaking or just creative in general?
08:29 - I would say filmmaking, yeah.
08:30 - Okay, filmmaking.
08:31 I'd say my, actually, yeah, my first serious project,
08:36 it was a joint project, which me and Abdu did.
08:38 It was for a band called The Code
08:39 that we worked with a lot.
08:42 They kind of trusted us and entrusted us
08:45 with their kind of vision
08:46 from a creative director perspective.
08:48 When we were, we always, I'd always say this thing.
08:52 I was like, you don't become a creative director,
08:55 you already are a creative director.
08:57 It's just the world needs to kind of like
08:59 recognize what you've done.
09:01 And I think that like,
09:02 so we always just had this mentality of like,
09:04 we already are directors as well.
09:05 Like we should say,
09:06 you know, maybe we haven't necessarily put the work out,
09:08 but when we see our work and our ideas,
09:09 that's how we think.
09:11 So we basically, The Code, like we,
09:13 they're that amazing band from just outside of London
09:17 and their music is sick.
09:19 So we reached out to them
09:21 and we kind of started looking at like their brand
09:24 and we started thinking about, okay, how do we,
09:25 how, if we, this was a campaign, how would we brand them?
09:28 So we looked at their logo,
09:30 we looked at the aesthetic
09:31 of how they were putting stuff out
09:32 and we kind of just presented them a few extra ideas
09:36 and the guys, they just loved it.
09:38 So we had this idea where
09:41 their album was called One Eleven.
09:46 And what we went to do was basically
09:48 create like the album artwork,
09:51 but then also it was like, okay,
09:52 well, if you're creating artwork and the album,
09:54 you have to advertise it.
09:56 So we were like, okay, like let's shoot an advert.
09:58 So then I had this idea, which was like,
10:00 oh, I'm sure we could do something on that motion control.
10:03 - What is motion control?
10:06 - Motion control is that when you basically,
10:08 you get a camera and it sits on like a dolly.
10:13 I might be saying this wrong, my knowledge.
10:16 It sits on a dolly, a tracking dolly,
10:20 and then basically you can program it.
10:22 So the thing can do moves nonstop.
10:25 And as it does those moves,
10:28 you can basically either change the speed of the camera
10:31 or you can go in slow motion
10:34 or you can basically repeat a move.
10:36 So when you bring all those images together,
10:39 you can have multiple people within one space
10:41 or you can move it in certain ways and repeat the move.
10:43 So it just allows you to really like take an image
10:47 and create something that like,
10:49 you could have three versions of me sitting here basically
10:52 in plain people's terms.
10:56 So I get really technical sometimes, so apologies.
10:57 - It's cool, it's cool, I love it.
11:00 - I can get really technical.
11:01 Yeah, so we had decided, so this was what, 2015?
11:05 And like January, 2015, and then like me and Abz
11:08 were trying to get to the idea and I'm like,
11:11 what if we like, what if we did something with motion
11:14 and what if we like showed different versions
11:16 of like someone experiencing this thing in a room?
11:21 And initially we were like, is that gonna work?
11:24 Not too sure, we're like deliberating
11:25 and then like Abz has gone like, no bro,
11:28 I think the idea, I think it could work.
11:31 So like, I think at the time, like we do a lot together,
11:35 but we also do a lot separately.
11:36 So Abz kind of really looked at like the visual aesthetic
11:39 of the world and the things we could put in.
11:42 And then I kind of was more on the technical side of like,
11:44 okay, how do we go from like this space
11:49 and then how do we go right into the artwork?
11:51 And then, so what we've done is like,
11:54 like literally, I look back now and I don't know how we,
11:56 like, you know, when you look back, you're like,
11:58 what were we on?
11:58 Like, we were just on, I think we're very competitive,
12:03 but also we're like, I think like we are, we like to,
12:08 there's this thing we have to deliver.
12:09 Once you've got an idea, like there's no other choice,
12:11 like you have to like really deliver on the vision.
12:15 So we like started like reaching out to people
12:19 and like there was a, again, you can get like the big,
12:22 big motion control guys.
12:24 This is again, we're talking almost like almost 10
12:26 or nine years ago, this would have been crazy.
12:28 So there wasn't many people out there and you know,
12:31 motion control is expensive.
12:32 So we reached out to a few people and they were just like,
12:36 I don't know if that's gonna work.
12:38 And then we found this one guy who was based out of like
12:43 Redding, I believe his name was Mark.
12:46 I hope his name was Mark.
12:47 And like, literally like, he just had like this really like
12:52 simple website, but it just said like motion control.
12:56 So he got on the phone, was like, yo, we got this thing.
12:58 You've got like 24 P, like this is what we're trying to do.
13:02 And he literally was like, listen,
13:04 I really like what you guys have created here.
13:05 And I love the way that you speak about like,
13:08 you know, creative, so let's make it happen.
13:10 And like, he literally like, we went to,
13:13 it was like, I think it was like in Redding somewhere
13:15 and this farm and like, he's like come down to the office
13:19 and like, it was mad.
13:21 Like he had all of these like robotic,
13:23 like motion control, like rigs that he'd created.
13:28 Then he's telling us about his story
13:30 about how he created the first like rig in the UK
13:32 and he was on Top Gear and like, it was sick.
13:35 So we got that and then like, yeah, we just,
13:38 it was like, I would never do,
13:40 actually I would do something like this again,
13:41 but I would never do it like the way we did it.
13:43 'Cause when we said go to shoot in, we had 15 days
13:49 and in between those 15 days, we were like,
13:53 like in terms of when we went to pre-production,
13:55 we were in between Paris and LA.
13:57 And I think sometimes you just gotta like,
14:01 have a bit of delusion and you know, make stuff happen.
14:04 And like, we somehow managed to have like,
14:06 I think we had like 25 models.
14:09 We had like, we got the location,
14:10 we had in our initial deck,
14:13 we got an amazing like friend who stepped in as a DOP.
14:17 We shot on Ares and Cook lenses, which yeah,
14:21 we put it all together and we literally like,
14:23 the budget we had, it was non-existent basically.
14:27 So I think that was our first big project.
14:31 And like, it's funny because like,
14:33 what we realized we did back then was,
14:36 we'd done all the right things.
14:38 Like we had an amazing set, we had dope lighting,
14:41 we had a sick location, we had dope cast, dope track,
14:44 we had VFX, we got our friends in from uni to like,
14:48 you know, to like, to capture the space.
14:51 So when it came to putting the VFX into the scene,
14:54 we could do it.
14:55 We had like the camera moving in reverse,
14:58 even though it was going forward.
14:59 So we're doing all this stuff.
15:01 But then what we were doing it for was,
15:02 we were trying to do like,
15:04 more adverts in advertising as creatives.
15:08 So when we showed it to our creative directors,
15:09 they kind of were like, "Oh, that's nice, anyway."
15:13 And then like, so for us, we were like, "Rah!"
15:15 And then also I think like,
15:18 it did what it needed to do from a numbers perspective,
15:22 but then it was like,
15:23 I don't think people understood what we were doing.
15:25 I don't think even we understood
15:26 what we were doing at the time or what we did.
15:28 So for a bit of time, we didn't really see it as like,
15:32 we didn't know if we really achieved the success
15:34 of what we were expecting.
15:36 I think our expectations and reality were very different.
15:40 And like, it kind of like, again,
15:42 kind of stopped directing for a little bit longer.
15:45 And then like, I think Abs in like,
15:48 I think it would have been 2020 after we'd released,
15:51 or we were like, Abs had released his short film
15:54 and I was in production on mine and Abdi was like,
15:56 "Bro, like, you know that project,
15:58 "we've done all the right things,
15:59 "but we were trying to like,
16:01 "show it to people that didn't really understand
16:03 "what we were trying to do.
16:04 "So it's like, we did the right things,
16:06 "but for the wrong reasons."
16:07 And it was just like, to try and get a promotion at work.
16:11 Whereas what we had created was technically like,
16:13 our first production as a, like,
16:17 we're more, what we see ourselves as more than,
16:20 more than just a production company,
16:21 but what we had done in terms of pulling people together
16:24 and making stuff happen and, you know, paying,
16:27 make sure everyone was paid and making sure that like,
16:29 we was on time, we were doing that.
16:31 And like, we were like, we were kids.
16:33 So I think that like, that was like the first big one.
16:37 And it kind of, looking back,
16:40 it gave us the confidence to know that we could do it.
16:43 So yeah, to answer your question
16:45 in a very long winded way, I hope.
16:47 It answers it, so yeah.
16:50 - Wow, that's amazing.
16:52 So you guys have done this like, amazing project, right?
16:56 Keeping the standards like, amazingly high.
16:59 - Yeah.
17:00 - And then you've like, not abandoned,
17:04 but put down those aspirations, let's say, for a few years.
17:08 - Yeah.
17:09 - How do we, when do you get to TV?
17:14 - So, wow, okay.
17:16 So I think for me, like, my world into the world of like,
17:20 film and TV has been, yeah, it's been a journey.
17:24 To put it, to put it like, to put it lightly.
17:28 'Cause I feel like, even though I've got like,
17:30 certain credits, I still don't feel like
17:32 I'm actually in yet.
17:33 I feel like I've still got time to get to where I want to be,
17:37 if that makes sense.
17:38 - Yeah.
17:40 - But I think for me, obviously, after doing,
17:42 I done "Lock Off", which was, you know,
17:45 like my first short film.
17:47 - Yeah.
17:48 - That kind of started coming to life around like,
17:50 2018, 2019, started kind of putting pen to paper.
17:54 And at the time we were working with a really dope director
17:57 called William McGregor.
17:59 And he was a director that was kind of in between
18:03 both advertising and also narrative.
18:07 - Okay.
18:08 - So he's done some like, huge shows,
18:09 like "His Dark Materials".
18:11 He's also done "Lockwood & Co".
18:14 What was really interesting about Will was like,
18:16 when we worked him on a project for "Harry Potter",
18:18 which was amazing.
18:19 And I think us just seeing him was like,
18:22 and seeing how he was able to kind of take the idea
18:25 we came up with and bring it to life was amazing.
18:28 And then our creative director,
18:29 like we had two amazing creative directors
18:32 that are at this agency we was working at,
18:34 which is Wyden & Kennedy.
18:35 So we had Scott and Sophie.
18:38 Sophie's an amazing writer and Scott is an amazing,
18:42 they're both creative directors,
18:44 but also Scott also directs as well.
18:47 So he was kind of like us,
18:49 but like a lot further in his career.
18:51 Like, literally, like now he's like, you know,
18:55 chief creative officer, he's gone clear,
18:56 but he still directs.
18:57 So for us, it kind of like,
18:59 there was all these influences where everyone was like,
19:01 oh, like they were encouraging,
19:04 like for a change we were being encouraged
19:06 to really like dive deeper into our side projects.
19:09 So with "Lockoff", I basically kick-started
19:14 and raised like 14K in like 20 days,
19:18 which was amazing.
19:19 So that was sick.
19:21 And then like Radical Media jumped in,
19:23 they put a bit of money into the film as well.
19:25 And then, yeah, it went into production
19:27 and it was, I think for me,
19:29 I feel like I learned a lot with that film.
19:33 In terms of my ambition of what I wanted it to be
19:36 and where we got to, for a very long time,
19:38 I wasn't really happy with where we got to
19:40 because I felt like,
19:42 I had this conversation yesterday
19:45 where I felt like my vision was,
19:48 I wanted it to feel like "Deadpool", like a Marvel film.
19:50 I wanted it to have that aesthetic.
19:52 And like, I felt like personally, we didn't achieve that.
19:56 Others disagree, but like, I think what it did do
19:59 is it taught me what it does take to get to that level.
20:02 And that's the thing as a director,
20:05 you've got to like, you do things in stages
20:08 and sometimes you might not,
20:12 like I think probably what I had to learn,
20:13 and it took me a long time to unsee certain things.
20:15 I was looking at it from a POV of what I wanted it to become,
20:18 but what it was was something that was completely different,
20:20 which was amazing in its own right.
20:24 The back of that, it got some cool festival selections.
20:26 It went to like, the Pan-African Film Festival.
20:29 - Like, no, huge film, like huge selections.
20:32 - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:34 I was happy with the selections.
20:36 Got into "Asthetica" and then BBC Comedy,
20:39 they had a comedy festival
20:41 and it got selected there, which was amazing.
20:46 And that kind of like,
20:48 John, who's like the commissioner of BBC Comedy,
20:50 like, he literally pulled me
20:51 and put me in front of Charlie Brookhaw in that.
20:54 We had like the sickest conversation.
20:56 And I think for me, kind of like,
20:58 what it made me realize was that like,
21:00 if I had not taken that chance on myself with "Lock Off,"
21:05 I would never have been in that room and met Charlie.
21:08 And like, Charlie's just like one of the most like coolest,
21:11 like he's so cool.
21:12 Like, you know, when he meets me,
21:13 like, "Rah, you're mad cool, man."
21:15 And like, what were we even talking?
21:17 I think it was like a two hour conversation,
21:19 just about everything.
21:20 Like, not really about,
21:22 it was more about life.
21:24 And like, I think,
21:25 and what I didn't realize was,
21:27 I didn't realize how much of a "Black Mirror" fan I was
21:29 until I was like, "Oh yeah,
21:31 when you did this and that and that."
21:33 And it was just like, I was like, "Rah, I'm really a fan."
21:35 (laughing)
21:36 So yeah, and then like,
21:38 and then that was sick,
21:40 like to really like have a chance to like meet him.
21:44 And then at the same time,
21:46 I just happened to be working on "The Kitchen."
21:48 Like, so I was doing like second unit stuff
21:51 on Kibwe and Daniel's film, which is amazing.
21:55 - Okay, all right, sorry, sorry, all right.
21:58 - Yeah, so I might've jumped a bit too forward.
22:00 - That is so right, that's so right.
22:03 - Yeah, yeah. - So, right.
22:05 You've gone from "Lock Off."
22:07 - Yeah.
22:08 - And the,
22:13 we'll get to "Black Mirror."
22:14 - Yeah.
22:15 - But you were on "The Kitchen."
22:17 So I guess, because "The Kitchen" is like,
22:22 it's a Netflix project, isn't it?
22:24 - Yeah.
22:25 - So it's a very serious commission.
22:28 - Yeah.
22:29 - To, I might be wrong,
22:32 but it makes sense for you to have probably had an agent
22:37 to even be able to get some sort of looking
22:41 to be considered for a role on that project.
22:46 Were you, like, how did you get that role to be for you?
22:51 - Okay, so it's actually funny, 'cause like,
22:53 so how "The Kitchen" actually came to me
22:58 was through Matthew and Kareem.
23:01 So Matthew that runs Bounce Cinema and Kareem.
23:04 So Kareem Adesina, who's obviously like,
23:07 I hope I said your name right, bro.
23:09 (laughing)
23:10 Who's one of the waviest producers out there.
23:13 Young man with a wide set of shoulders on him.
23:16 So basically in "The Kitchen," initially,
23:19 they had an idea to basically have these adverts
23:22 that were set in the future, right?
23:25 So they really wanted someone who's a director,
23:28 who works in advertising, who, you know,
23:30 like wanted to kind of get a feature,
23:32 want to work on a feature film.
23:34 So I think Kareem reached out to Matthew.
23:37 Matthew was in like, bro, we've got this opportunity.
23:41 Like, do you want me to put your name forward?
23:45 I was like, yo, like 100%, like definitely,
23:47 let's make it happen.
23:49 So for me and Abs, like what we always try to do
23:52 is we always try to be very prepared
23:53 when we go into any of these sorts of situations.
23:56 So what I did was like, I just basically got the scripts
24:01 and I created a treat, like a director's treatment
24:04 on my vision for how I would shoot my scenes
24:06 within "The Kitchen."
24:07 And I kind of like, you know, I just was like, well,
24:11 it's like, I looked at the writers and the director
24:13 and I was like, well, they just look like me.
24:15 So why not?
24:17 I was like, I'm gonna make this world
24:19 exactly in line of how I would see it.
24:20 So I created this vision for these adverts
24:25 that basically dependent on who sees them,
24:28 the advert would change.
24:29 So basically I had this idea that,
24:31 so in the way where these scenes were supposed to be,
24:35 was that you would see like an advert
24:39 and let's say like someone that was white would see it,
24:41 they would see a generic kind of advert.
24:43 And then if a black person went up,
24:45 so let's say for example, you see sushi
24:49 and that sushi would evolve to have jollof sushi.
24:52 And like immediately, I remember like presenting this
24:54 and pitching this to the guys
24:55 and everyone just started laughing.
24:57 And Kibs was like, like literally I think,
25:00 for Kibwe I think like to, again,
25:02 Kibwe is someone who like when I,
25:05 it's just mad to even have the chance to work with him
25:07 because I remember when I was in uni
25:10 and seeing his first short "Robots in Brixton"
25:13 and being like, whoa, like how, again, like how,
25:18 like what crazy.
25:19 So then to be able to kind of like show someone like that,
25:23 your vision for me was just crazy.
25:25 And then again, with like Daniel Kaluuya,
25:29 really good friend for a very long time,
25:32 my friend, one of my really, really closest friends
25:34 was in the skins with him.
25:36 So to kind of see Daniel's progression
25:39 and to see him in this position was just nuts.
25:41 So see I pitched to the guys, again, it was very fast,
25:46 things move very fast.
25:47 Then me and Kibs linked up and I think for Kibwe,
25:50 what he was saying was that initially with these spots,
25:51 he was like, they didn't really,
25:54 my vision was probably a little bit too in the,
25:57 in the kind of like the funny comedy space.
26:00 And he went into being more serious.
26:04 In the end COVID got the better of those scenes,
26:07 unfortunately.
26:08 So when it came to shooting
26:09 and we were only able to shoot parts of them.
26:12 And I remember seeing a cut where I saw a part,
26:14 so I was like, ah, and then I saw the film
26:16 and unfortunately he didn't make it in,
26:17 but still a sick lesson.
26:19 But the main thing that was amazing
26:20 was to be given access to sit like side by side
26:24 with like Daniel and Kibwe and just to sit there and learn.
26:28 And so 2022 for me was a year of just like
26:32 strictly like just shadowing
26:34 and just like understanding what it takes
26:37 to take something from a page to them being shot.
26:41 And I had an opportunity to shadow on a lot.
26:43 And you know, when you do shadow,
26:44 you do get opportunities to like, you know,
26:46 sometimes you get a chance to run the second unit
26:48 or you might have to step in for the director.
26:50 And it was amazing that I think for me,
26:54 like, cause then it meant that I got like, you know,
26:57 a couple of really, really big credits.
27:00 - Yep.
27:01 - Which then led to obviously me and Charlie.
27:04 And then off the back of that,
27:06 I then one of the commissioners at BBC comedy got in touch
27:09 and was like, hey, like we're about to shoot this,
27:11 this, this action comedy police show.
27:15 I was like, oh, really?
27:16 I was like, it sounds familiar.
27:20 And then it was like,
27:22 and it was sick.
27:25 It was like black ops.
27:26 So I got sent the scripts and like,
27:28 for me when you're shadowing,
27:30 like some, like you can kind of feel like you're,
27:33 and when you're doing second unit,
27:35 cause it's not your vision, it's someone else's vision.
27:38 Like you have to like get up to speed quite quickly,
27:41 but then you can kind of,
27:42 it's like kind of like running on a treadmill
27:43 that's already going.
27:45 So, so I got, I got brought in on black ops,
27:49 met Ben Greger, Bemi Sola and also,
27:53 and Hamid and also AK as well.
27:56 Like the team, like everyone was just like,
27:59 it was crazy.
28:00 It was literally again, it moved so fast.
28:01 It was like, I think Thursday they contacted me,
28:03 Monday I'm on set.
28:04 I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
28:07 It was that fast.
28:08 It was that fast.
28:09 And then I changed agents at the same time.
28:13 So, so basically I wasn't like when,
28:14 when the kitchen came to me, I was unrept.
28:17 Yes, it was, it was through demand them.
28:19 Like it was like, I think we're in positions now
28:21 where like a lot of opportunities are just coming
28:24 just through like, you know, the people we know.
28:26 And I started working with an agent
28:28 and then, and then I switched over to ITG.
28:31 I think like, it just made sense.
28:33 - Independent.
28:35 - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
28:36 It made a lot of sense.
28:37 - Yes.
28:38 - I got some, got some, got some very,
28:40 very wise words from Daniel Kaluuya.
28:43 And I think that like, I think it was,
28:45 it was off of the back of the Charlie chat
28:47 and then I remember Daniel coming over to me,
28:48 like, yo bro, like check this email.
28:50 And I was like, looking at me,
28:51 he was like, not that stuff, not that stuff.
28:54 And then like, there was a little, little endings
28:56 that PS I've just met a questly, really cool guy.
28:59 And I think Daniel just said some stuff to me.
29:01 And I think it just made me, it made, it made,
29:03 it made sense to kind of like switch over to independent.
29:06 And yeah, man, I've got an agent that I think
29:08 really understands me and understands where I want to go.
29:11 And yeah, like, I'm just trying to like,
29:14 now marry up that vision with, you know,
29:16 the right kinds of projects and the right kind of work.
29:19 So yeah, I don't know if I've answered that question.
29:21 I hope I did.
29:22 (laughing)
29:23 - Yeah, no, you definitely did.
29:24 You definitely did, man.
29:26 You know, like, 'cause so many people on a similar journey
29:31 or who may want to be where you are
29:36 in like three to five years, right?
29:38 - Yeah.
29:39 - Like people have this desire to be repped,
29:43 which makes sense, right?
29:45 It helps you get bigger work.
29:46 But what actually happens when you get an agent?
29:51 - I think like, it's an interesting question.
29:55 I want to answer this question again in a few years.
29:57 (laughing)
29:58 'Cause I feel like if you've got a sick agent
30:02 will get you in the room.
30:04 But I think sometimes as directors or actors or talent,
30:09 sometimes you think your agent's gonna do all the work
30:12 for you and that's not the case.
30:13 You still have to put in the work.
30:15 So one thing I noticed with my agent is that like,
30:18 now if I want to get in the room with someone,
30:21 it can happen, but the work's got to be there as well.
30:25 So it's kind of like, it's a bit of a,
30:30 like I heard this analogy that like,
30:32 you have to make their job easier.
30:34 Like you don't want, like some people think that like,
30:36 okay, I've got an agent now, right?
30:37 Hands up, I want to do X, Y, Z.
30:40 And for some people it does happen.
30:41 But when I look at my peers,
30:43 the people that have elevated, it's like,
30:46 they've done work, the agents done work,
30:48 but it's like, they're basically,
30:49 they're both elevating together.
30:51 And then that's where you see like,
30:53 that they get into mad rooms
30:54 and they get crazy opportunities.
30:56 So for me, what I've learned is that like,
30:58 what my agent's been able to do is that like,
31:00 before I wouldn't get a response to certain emails.
31:03 Like I would, you just get air.
31:05 It is what it is, it's what happens.
31:06 Now it's like, if we send something, we get a response.
31:10 And it's like, that for me was something
31:12 which was like crazy.
31:13 So for me, what I've been working hard on
31:15 is now getting that work to the level
31:17 so that when that email is sent,
31:20 the work is there to back it up.
31:23 And then a meeting or more comes off of it.
31:26 And I think now with The Therapist,
31:28 I've started to see that
31:28 because I think with Lock Off,
31:29 it was like, I felt like I had,
31:32 I think I didn't really know what I wanted
31:33 off the back end of Lock Off.
31:36 'Cause I didn't really wanna turn it into,
31:39 at the time, into anything.
31:40 It was more about me just trying something.
31:43 And, you know, trying to find my creative voice
31:46 as a director, as a narrative director.
31:48 Whereas at The Therapist,
31:51 there's a lot of intention that's been baked
31:55 into how I brought,
31:55 or how I'm bringing this project to life.
31:57 So yeah, and the meetings are happening
32:00 and we're getting into the right room.
32:02 So now my aim is like, how do we now take this
32:04 and turn this into something bigger,
32:07 turn this into a world where, you know,
32:08 we start to see more of those stories
32:10 about ourself within the UK.
32:13 - Wow.
32:15 So it sounds like, I guess, advice for people is,
32:20 in this day and age, what is really helpful?
32:22 Obviously there's many routes for many people,
32:24 but what's really helpful is making good work
32:29 can help you get repped,
32:33 but can help you in so many,
32:35 it sounds like that is a key source of-
32:38 - Yeah.
32:39 Without the work, like you won't,
32:41 you're not gonna,
32:43 you're basically, everything's in your mind.
32:46 So you've got to get things out of your mind
32:48 and into the world.
32:50 And it's like, some people,
32:52 they manage to get opportunities
32:55 without getting their work out of their mind.
32:56 That's just because of how their life's set up.
32:58 And it's like, that's because of how they've been able
33:01 to set up their stuff.
33:02 But for a lot of us, we don't have that ability
33:05 to, you know, project in that way.
33:07 So, you know, you've got to get,
33:09 you've got to be able to show someone a piece of work.
33:11 So when it came to like,
33:14 and that's what I learned with "Lock Off"
33:15 is like, if I didn't,
33:17 if I didn't like, you know, find the people that work,
33:19 if that project didn't come out,
33:21 then when I got put in front of Charlie,
33:23 and it was actually his producer,
33:25 and it was, this was so nuts.
33:26 It was his producer that done the episode of,
33:29 which features like the robot dog.
33:31 It's the black and white episode of "Black Mirror."
33:33 And like, she was just like, "Oh my God."
33:36 Like, "How much did you spend on it?"
33:39 Like, asking me all these questions on like,
33:40 on the production of the film.
33:42 And then I was like, "Oh, like,
33:45 what is it like that you've done?"
33:46 And she was like, "Oh, like,
33:47 I did like the robot dog episode of 'Black Mirror.'"
33:49 I looked at her and I was like,
33:50 "There's no way, like, she's getting gassed over like,
33:53 'Lock Off,' like, what?"
33:54 Like, I was like, "Have you seen it?"
33:56 Like, that episode is nuts with this dog running around,
33:59 and there's like barely any dialogue.
34:01 And I was like, and I think that was probably
34:02 one of the first moments where I was like,
34:03 "Okay, maybe I'm doing something right."
34:05 But if I didn't have this,
34:08 if I didn't put on the hat to, you know,
34:10 to, you know, like, create this project,
34:13 then she wouldn't have spoken about it in a way.
34:16 And then like, Charlie, you know,
34:17 may not have understood like, where I was at.
34:20 - Yeah.
34:21 - My mind as a, as not just a director,
34:24 but also like putting on that, you know,
34:26 the executive producer hat,
34:27 or like the creator hat, or the writer hat.
34:29 And I think, yeah, it's definitely opened up like,
34:33 some amazing, some amazing doors,
34:34 but you've got to have that work.
34:35 You've got to have the work.
34:36 'Cause once you've got the work,
34:38 you don't really need to talk as much.
34:39 You can just let the work do the talking.
34:41 So yeah.
34:43 - I love that.
34:44 That's amazing.
34:45 That's amazing.
34:46 Now, you know what?
34:47 Like in your journey, there's been like loads of like,
34:52 big wins, good wins,
34:54 things that are like really encouraging,
34:56 meeting great people, you know,
34:58 creating good work as well.
35:00 - Yeah.
35:01 - What have been some of the difficulties that you've had?
35:06 Especially being so passionate as well.
35:08 - Yeah, yeah.
35:09 Biggest number one difficulty, I was like,
35:11 I was like, I don't want to be negative in this call.
35:14 But I think for me,
35:15 the number one difficulty has been funding, funny enough.
35:18 So like, I've never like had backing from like,
35:22 any of the major funders on any of my projects.
35:24 So the therapist is pretty much like, you know,
35:28 99% self-funded.
35:31 Lock off, obviously, Kickstarter, Radical,
35:35 and then the rest of that was like self-funded.
35:38 So like, for me, what I found really difficult is like,
35:41 you've got, we've all got ideas for days, right?
35:43 And like what I found, which I've,
35:45 and I don't know, it's been a bit surprising when like,
35:48 I've got so many ideas that I put forward,
35:51 and for whatever reason,
35:53 they just don't seem to get,
35:54 or they haven't at the time,
35:56 being, you know, picked up or supported by like,
36:00 like by the industry.
36:01 So for me, like, it's luckily like, you know,
36:06 there was a time, 'cause I've left advertising now,
36:08 I'm no longer creative in that world,
36:09 like still do consultancy and all that sort of stuff.
36:12 But you know, like for me,
36:14 like to be able to bring these productions to life,
36:18 especially the therapist, it was mad.
36:21 Sometimes I think me and Abs, we talk about,
36:23 and we're like, "Rah, like, how did it even,
36:26 you know, you're like, how'd you do it?"
36:27 And I'm like, "Bro, I don't know,
36:29 just figuring stuff out."
36:31 And yeah, and it's like,
36:33 I think one thing that I try not to do
36:36 is to focus too much on the rest of the industry.
36:40 'Cause you know, it's very easy to kind of look
36:42 and be like, "Oh, like that person's got this,
36:44 and this person's got that."
36:45 And then you see the logos and it's like,
36:48 rah, it can be a bit like, "Rah, what am I doing wrong?"
36:51 But then I think on the other side,
36:52 what it has allowed me to do is like,
36:54 I think focus on creating a world
36:57 that I really wanna create.
36:59 And in terms of like having that network of people
37:02 to kind of bounce ideas with,
37:04 I feel I've got like a solid network of creatives
37:07 that I trust their opinion on.
37:08 - Yeah.
37:09 - 'Cause that's the thing,
37:10 that's the thing that I feel like I've lacked
37:12 is like understanding and knowing
37:15 who are those people at those places.
37:18 'Cause there's a lot of like,
37:19 there's so much like,
37:21 I don't know the right word for it,
37:24 but it feels like there is like mystery
37:28 behind who these guys are that are funding stuff
37:31 and like, and then how to get funding
37:33 from like your Film Fours, your BBCs, your BFIs.
37:36 Like there's so much mystery around it.
37:39 And it's like, you can just get caught up
37:41 in all of these things to a point of where you end up
37:44 feeling like you're losing time.
37:45 So for example, the therapist,
37:48 I applied for BFI, didn't get it.
37:50 So I kind of sat there and I'd like,
37:52 it sat on my hard drive for a few years.
37:55 And then I went to go to a theater show
37:56 and I saw how simple it was.
37:58 And then off of the back of that, I was like,
38:00 okay, how nimble can we be with this?
38:04 And to a point where we can still kind of
38:06 like bring it to life.
38:07 And we just, yeah, man, made it happen.
38:10 People came through and it's like, it was a madness.
38:13 And like, but yeah, it came to life,
38:16 but man, I do sit there and I'm like,
38:18 if I had back in, I wonder where it would have been.
38:22 And it's like, and I look at some of the
38:26 really difficult times that like there were dark days,
38:29 really difficult, dark days on the therapist.
38:32 - Really?
38:32 - And I was like, what's it say?
38:34 - Really?
38:35 - Yeah, like really, really difficult days.
38:37 We're talking like, where you got to
38:41 trying to think of like stuff I can talk about,
38:43 like just in terms of like getting people
38:46 to help bring it to life.
38:49 And like, 'cause for me, like there's one thing
38:52 that I always say, like I don't ever,
38:53 I don't think there's such thing as like bad ideas.
38:55 I just think there's just bad execution.
38:57 And it's like, basically like,
38:59 so where we always try to execute on that level,
39:02 like you know, as a director,
39:05 you know when something's not hitting your level
39:06 'cause you feel it in the energy
39:08 and you also feel it in the energy of everyone
39:10 that's watching the projects.
39:11 So you've got to kind of like do all these incremental things
39:15 to kind of raise it.
39:15 So whether that's, you know, like getting in the right,
39:19 like partners to help you push it forward
39:22 or the different departments, whether that's, you know,
39:24 like that could be like your VFX, it could be your branding,
39:29 it could be your grade, it could be your sound,
39:31 it could be everything,
39:32 everything and everything has an impact.
39:34 - Yeah.
39:35 - So like, for me, I remember looking at this and thinking,
39:36 well, I spent so much on this and like,
39:39 but also I've, people have spent,
39:42 and which is the most expensive thing,
39:44 a lot of people put their time to this for free
39:46 and we weren't at the level where we need to be.
39:48 So then I had to make some like tough decisions of like,
39:51 you know, going at things again.
39:53 And that was hard.
39:54 And I just would always sit there and look and be like,
39:57 if, and it's like, it was a great lesson to learn
40:00 to know how to navigate those things.
40:02 Sometimes with budget, sometimes without,
40:04 but man, if I had like at the time,
40:08 like that level of budget,
40:10 then it would have meant that I could have worked
40:11 so that people would want to work with,
40:12 that I trust from the outset.
40:14 So I wouldn't have had to have dealt
40:15 with a lot of those things, but I'll take the lessons.
40:18 I just think for me, it's now about like,
40:20 now we know what we've built with this world.
40:23 So now it's about like hitting that level of excellence
40:25 and doing that across the board in all the departments.
40:29 So that's kind of like the next stage I'm going to be like,
40:32 walking into going into the next year.
40:34 - I love that, man.
40:37 I love that.
40:38 It's, yeah, 'cause it feels like,
40:43 or it seems like you're at that,
40:46 I don't want to say cusp,
40:48 but you're in a really exciting space.
40:52 - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
40:53 - Where it's like,
40:57 you're regarded by the right people now.
41:00 And you've got a decent setup
41:03 and the right agent to get into the white rooms.
41:06 You've put in your groundwork,
41:07 you've got skin in the game
41:08 with like Lockoff and the therapist.
41:11 And like, now it's like, okay, cool.
41:13 So the next three to five years sound like
41:16 they're going to be really, really exciting.
41:20 What would you say is next?
41:22 - Cool.
41:23 I think like,
41:24 I think there's,
41:25 it's that kind of classic thing,
41:27 but like every director,
41:29 like I'm going to say the same stuff.
41:31 So I think like, for me, there's a few things.
41:34 I think like the first thing is like,
41:38 I think looking at everything
41:39 in terms of creative practice.
41:41 So I think I was working in advertising for a long time.
41:45 And finally, and I think in advertising,
41:47 it's like, you've always got one foot in, one foot out.
41:49 So I think that was the first thing,
41:50 which was like to now actually, you know,
41:53 put myself first.
41:55 So, like started a new year,
41:59 like full time into the world of being a fun employed,
42:04 hashtag like freelance.
42:07 Allow myself to be able to take more
42:09 directs and opportunities.
42:12 So I would love to develop the therapist
42:14 into a bigger series.
42:18 I think it has a leg to be a series.
42:21 And you know, there might be a feature idea
42:23 in there as well.
42:24 But I think like a series,
42:25 I think in the next few years,
42:27 we're going to see a series of the therapist
42:28 that's speaking to existence.
42:30 And I think like, also then from a feature perspective,
42:34 I think I've been saying this to a lot of people
42:38 that are quite close to me,
42:39 which is like a lot of the work that I used to like,
42:42 that I loved growing up was very dark.
42:45 We're talking things like, you know,
42:47 City of God, Lehane, American History X.
42:50 Those are like, that was what I grew up on.
42:53 I love that stuff.
42:54 So I think for me, from a feature perspective,
42:59 I feel like in the UK, we don't have that feature.
43:02 We've had it, but we haven't had it for a very long time.
43:05 That feature film that represents London
43:08 in the same way City of God represents Brazil,
43:11 Paris represents South Korea.
43:14 And I want to create that film that like,
43:16 that people in the world, when they think about the city,
43:18 they think about this feature.
43:22 So there's a few ideas I'm trying to do there
43:24 that I really want to help bring to life.
43:26 So I can see that happening.
43:29 I think American History X, that film, first scene alone,
43:32 like that's me, man.
43:34 So I feel like it's funny,
43:35 'cause I've done action comedy,
43:37 I've done like drama comedy,
43:39 and now it's going to be like, okay, we're going dark.
43:41 We're going to be doing more of a thriller,
43:42 but then it's also because I feel like as a creative,
43:46 I feel like first before anything, I've got ideas
43:48 and I just want to be able to like,
43:50 - Yeah. - make some different mediums.
43:51 'Cause sometimes, it can just be like,
43:54 oh, I've got to say I want to do this, this.
43:55 And then the other thing I want to do for myself
43:58 is basically really like tap into like the art world as well,
44:03 which is something that like,
44:06 when I think about where I've been lucky
44:08 to work in different industries with different peoples
44:11 and all of those skills and those skill sets,
44:14 they don't disappear.
44:15 They're all still there.
44:16 And with The Therapist,
44:18 we obviously done for the release of the project,
44:21 I shot all these amazing like holographic portraits.
44:24 - Yes, yep, yep. - And obviously like,
44:26 yeah, and they come to life as you walk past them.
44:28 'Cause again, everything I do is within motion.
44:30 And what I want to do is like,
44:32 start to bring my skills into the art space.
44:36 The art space is something that I've always kind of like,
44:38 you know, always loved,
44:41 but didn't really know much about it or how to get in.
44:46 So, and I think it's just another avenue
44:48 of how to put projects out into the world.
44:51 So for myself with The Therapist,
44:53 the idea was that like,
44:54 we've got this amazing short film,
44:56 but when it comes to like, you know, our haircuts,
44:59 like I see that our barbers, it's like,
45:01 oh, they're literally like,
45:03 they're crafting the way we look.
45:05 So I was like, oh,
45:06 like what if we shot all these amazing portraits?
45:08 Those portraits could go into barber shops,
45:11 but what if they were so sick,
45:12 they could end up in galleries?
45:13 And like, that was the whole thing of like,
45:15 changing like, when we done our premier,
45:17 changing that Curzon cinema into a gallery for a night.
45:21 And yeah, man, I think that like,
45:22 that opens up a whole different world.
45:24 And I think like, something that I've always been,
45:26 I've been saying a lot to myself
45:27 is that the world is a lot bigger than I realise.
45:30 So what I'm trying to do is like,
45:32 put these things out into the world to see what comes back.
45:35 And yeah, I'm also like,
45:37 really excited to see what things can come back as well.
45:40 Like, I really want to know, like,
45:42 there's probably stuff where people might look at
45:44 some of my work and they might want to approach me
45:46 for projects that they're working on.
45:48 And I think I'm really open to the idea of that as well.
45:51 And you know, there's, we've all got our expectation,
45:53 but I think we have to leave a bit of room for like,
45:55 the world to kind of like,
45:56 and the universe to surprise us as well.
45:58 So yeah, I'm really excited to see kind of like,
46:03 like what stuff is out.
46:05 I think I was just watching Mr. and Mrs. Smith.
46:08 And like, I was like, rah, this is like,
46:11 so one of the shows that I love,
46:12 like one of my favorite shows is Gangs of London.
46:15 I love, I love that, man.
46:17 I just love the way that like, it's based on,
46:19 it's like when you, 'cause I read a lot,
46:21 I read a lot of stuff.
46:22 I mean, like, always like,
46:24 if I was a quiz player, I'd win everything.
46:26 Like, what I love about Gangs of London is how like,
46:29 they take things that actually happened within London
46:32 and then they bring that into their series.
46:35 So it's like, it's loose.
46:36 It's not based on, it's loosely based on a reality.
46:39 - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
46:40 - But you know that reality, like,
46:41 if you've read that sort of thing.
46:42 So I remember there was this guy,
46:44 I think he was, he's like an accountant
46:46 and he was found dead on like these railings.
46:48 And it's on like, it was all over like the Guardian
46:51 and like, you know, the sun and the mirror.
46:53 So then when I saw that in Gangs of London,
46:55 I was like, oh, damn, they referenced.
46:56 And I've gone back and I was like, ah.
46:58 And it's like, again, just bringing that kind of crazy,
47:01 crazy world into London, amazing.
47:03 So like, I was watching Mr. and Mrs. Smith recently.
47:06 And I saw that and it was like,
47:08 it kind of gave me vibes of like an Americanized version
47:11 with a bit of comedy of Gangs of London.
47:13 And like, even the way it starts up,
47:14 it starts up so crazy.
47:16 And I was like, man, like,
47:17 I would love to direct something like that.
47:19 So like, again, in the next three to five years,
47:21 I hope that like, you know, my name can be considered
47:24 and I can, you know, get on the team sheet as we call it.
47:28 One of those sorts of projects as well.
47:30 So yeah, you know, there's a lot of ideas.
47:32 There's not a lot of time.
47:33 So do stuff in stages.
47:35 So bit by bit, hopefully we can achieve some of those goals.
47:40 - I love, yeah, man.
47:41 I love that.
47:42 And yeah, we're really excited about, you know,
47:46 where you end up.
47:47 So looking forward to seeing more work, man.
47:51 - Likewise, likewise.
47:52 (laughs)
47:53 - Amazing.
47:54 Thank you now, bro.
47:55 It's been amazing chatting to you.
47:57 Looking forward to seeing more.
47:59 - Yeah, definitely.
47:59 Thank you for having me.
48:00 And yeah, I can't wait to see
48:02 how your platform grows as well.
48:03 (upbeat music)
48:06 (upbeat music)

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