Climate Change || Acharya Prashant, in conversation (2022)

Acharya Prashant

Video Information: 11.02.2022, Interview Session, Goa  Context: ~ What is Climate Change? ~ How to stop climate change? ~ What is the solution to global warming? ~ How can we control the increasing population? ~How can spirituality solve the problem of global warming? ~What is the most effective way of dealing with climate change? ~ How can population control help in dealing with climate change? ~What is the solution to climate change? ~How spirituality can stop climate change? ~Climate change has no scientific solution  Music Credits: Milind Date ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Transcript

00:00 Does the person you are with encourage you to read?

00:05 You have to ask, what does he bring for me?

00:09 Roses or books?

00:12 If someone has a stake in making you better, that person will push you towards books.

00:17 Books are what we all need.

00:22 Acharya Prashant, it is a true honor to be here with you today,

00:26 talking about climate change and global warming

00:31 as probably the biggest fundamental challenge facing humanity

00:36 and the other creatures of the planet.

00:39 And I think that's what we need to do.

00:42 And I think that's what we need to do.

00:45 Probably the biggest fundamental challenge facing humanity and the other creatures of the earth at this moment in time.

00:53 I am the director of the graduate programs in sustainability at Bard College in New York.

01:00 I'm an economist.

01:02 And along with my colleagues,

01:05 we are heading up an effort to create a worldwide teach-in on climate injustice scheduled for March 30th, 2022,

01:16 and then carrying on into 2023 and 2024.

01:19 We're seeking to really tap into the deep concern that so many educators, teachers, students,

01:27 staff members at high schools, at colleges, at universities around the world have about climate change.

01:34 And our belief is that most students now understand, you know,

01:40 basically that the fundamental science of climate change,

01:43 they get that we're putting pollution in the atmosphere that's trapping heat, that's causing the planet to warm up.

01:50 But by and large, they're just in despair about this.

01:54 And as a consequence, are ignoring it because there's nothing they feel like they can do.

01:59 And so they just live their lives, you know, kind of pretending that it's not happening.

02:04 And the idea of the teach-in is that with these thousands, tens of thousands,

02:10 millions of educators around the world who care about climate change are concerned about it,

02:15 that we can help move these students from a sense of despair to a real sense of a possibility and agency.

02:21 Because the fact is, this is an incredibly exciting and decisive moment to be a human on this planet,

02:29 because more than any other generation before ours and before young people's generation,

02:36 they have the ability to profoundly change the future.

02:39 The work that they can do in the next year, five years, 10 years, 15 years,

02:44 will have an impact not only on their own lives and the lives of their children,

02:49 but in fact for every human being who's going to walk the face of the planet from now until the end of time,

02:55 and for millions of species. So that's our mission.

03:01 And we're eager again to get thousands, tens of thousands of schools around the world globally involved.

03:11 We have translated our website into Hindi and have got resources to support teachers.

03:18 But the basic idea is a bottom-up conversation, tapping into existing concerns,

03:23 existing knowledge, and helping communities move towards solutions.

03:27 So I'm very eager to get your take on how this might work and kind of what the basic issues are

03:34 and what the basic obstacles are.

03:36 I'm very glad to be speaking to you, Dr. Iban.

03:41 And I'm really happy that someone like you, who has put in so much of interest and effort

03:50 in this most important area facing all of us, the entire humankind,

03:56 and obviously the young population, is here to talk to.

04:02 And yes, as you said, it's a very critical juncture for this generation and rather for the history of mankind in general.

04:20 We might use this crisis to bring about a rather fundamental shift in our consciousness,

04:32 in the way we live, we approach life, we approach each other, we approach natural resources.

04:38 Or we could just squander this opportunity and the worst-case scenario is we might just move towards

04:49 our own obliteration. But yes, as you put so much emphasis on hope,

04:55 obviously we have to understand that our basic nature, our fundamental nature is of wisdom and understanding.

05:04 And that's what we must stand by. And that's where we stand.

05:13 You see, I'll straightaway introduce you to my position on this.

05:25 See, it's a man-made thing, right? When we talk of climate change,

05:33 the word anthropogenic is the most important. It's a basic thing, but I'm reiterating

05:42 because that's the thing we give the least attention to.

05:47 We are treating climate change as if it is something outside of us.

05:52 As if some asteroid from outer space came over and delivered all the gases

06:02 and trapped all the heat in our atmosphere.

06:05 I want all of us to pay attention to the fact that we have done it.

06:14 It is our action and every action is representative of the state of the actor.

06:21 We are in a particular state internally and therefore we are doing what we are doing externally.

06:28 Now, our internal state has brought about this external action, this external state.

06:36 And we are not addressing the root cause, we are not addressing the way we are

06:42 and the way we have been probably all throughout our history.

06:46 We do not want to address that because probably that's too painful and that would cause too tectonic shift

06:54 in our entire life system. So we want to treat it as one of the problems that face us.

07:02 That's a very fragmented approach.

07:05 Hence the solutions that we are thinking of are also pretty external in nature.

07:13 So we want to move to greener technologies, we want to have carbon sequestering mechanisms,

07:22 we want countries to pledge for reforestation,

07:27 we want auto manufacturers to come up with newer technologies and such things.

07:34 And countries quabble with each other, who should be at the brunt

07:40 and then issues of climate justice and such things crop up.

07:43 The thing is, I want us to inquire into it.

07:49 Are we even understanding where the whole thing is coming from, really?

07:54 And if we do not understand that, is it not a fundamental conclusion

08:01 that we will never be able to solve this problem and all the actions that we are trying to have

08:08 as remedial actions would just be consolations.

08:13 We would be entertaining ourselves and we would be rather gratifying ourselves

08:21 that we are doing something meaningful and fruitful and nothing would come out of it.

08:27 And I am not just hypothesizing in a vacuum.

08:31 You see, we started taking this thing a bit seriously in 1990, right?

08:37 That's the watershed year. And we are more than three decades from there now.

08:43 And not only have we failed to reduce or neutralize carbon,

08:51 the fact is today we are releasing 20 to 40 percent more carbon than we used to do three decades back.

09:00 And that's with all our climate action.

09:03 And there is really no hope that we are going to achieve carbon neutrality any soon.

09:11 My country India, for example, even as a matter of pledge has quoted 2070.

09:19 Now that to me is just too far off.

09:25 And this kind of action is just too insufficient.

09:29 So, we are doing it. We are doing it.

09:36 And there are two things about us that are causing it.

09:39 They are so fundamental that we don't even talk about them.

09:42 Those two things are the numbers that we are and the numbers that are represented by our per capita consumption.

09:54 And even these two are fundamentally one.

09:59 The inbuilt human tendency to take consumption as an indicator of the fulfillment or success of one's life.

10:13 That's the reason we multiply. And that's the reason we want to consume more and more.

10:20 And climate change is hardly anything but a function of our numbers on this planet, our population,

10:28 and the per capita consumption by each person of our species.

10:34 Unfortunately, irrespective of the variations in culture, thought, religion, ethnicity, all that we have across the world,

10:45 about one thing we all are fully in agreement.

10:52 And that is that we all need to have a good time by consuming more and more.

10:59 Be it the Indian, the Chinese, the American, the African, anybody.

11:03 We all want to have a happy life and about a happy life the thing is consumption.

11:09 Consume more and let there be more people who can consume more.

11:14 So the slogan really is more to consume more.

11:19 And nobody seems to want to address that because that is just too explosive an issue probably,

11:24 especially in a democratic setup.

11:27 The fundamental thing is we are just too many.

11:30 And if we remain as many as we are, then I don't want to sound nihilist or something,

11:38 but I don't really see hope unless we address that one thing.

11:42 Equally, if we can address that one thing, especially to youngsters,

11:46 then obviously there is a lot of hope and a great possibility

11:50 and that possibility will then not relate only to climate change, but to everything that we do.

11:55 As human beings we will be able to lead richer, deeper, more meaningful lives,

11:59 more loving lives, lives of compassion, lives of less strife,

12:05 and lives that have a certain fulfillment.

12:08 So that's my simple position in a nutshell.

12:12 Obviously, we'll be going into the nuances of everything,

12:18 but I thought it would be better to just put everything on the table right away.

12:24 That's such a clear statement of the challenge that we're in.

12:29 Fundamentally, there's eight and a half billion of us, soon to be nine, soon to be ten.

12:34 Half the folks on the planet are barely getting by and living on a few dollars a day,

12:40 and everybody is aspiring to more.

12:43 This has led us to already be fighting over water and topsoil and fish and forests and biodiversity.

12:51 It's the fundamental reason the planet is heating up.

12:55 I would maybe differ with you a bit because I think that,

12:59 while I think that in the long run humans need to figure out how to come into

13:06 the right relationship with themselves and with the planet in terms of this quest for more,

13:15 I think that with the climate issue in particular, there is a window in which technology can buy us time.

13:23 I believe there is good news on the endless numbers of people on the planet.

13:34 Population growth rates are slowing down finally.

13:38 China, I believe, this year for the first time has tipped into a negative growth for population.

13:48 I'm hopeful that humanity can see our way through and we can stop at 10 billion

13:56 and then slowly have the population decline, create more space for people, create more space for creatures.

14:03 But I feel like we're at this moment, this critical juncture where we have to get this right.

14:08 Technology can buy us time, but I agree fundamentally it's how do humans heal themselves

14:15 and really develop a healthy relationship with each other and with the planet.

14:20 Dr. Iban, I too want to be an optimist on that count.

14:26 In fact, because I want us to be there in the medium run at least,

14:32 and I want us to not only exist, but exist in a healthy way, in a fulfilling way.

14:41 Therefore, I want to be realistic about the threats that face us.

14:48 Yes, that's very true that as economies prosper, then birth rates go down

14:56 and at some point we achieve population stability.

15:02 But then again, I want us to inquire into what makes people in a developed place have fewer kids.

15:12 Is it because they become full of empathy and concern?

15:18 Is that what is happening in, let's say, Japan or Germany?

15:21 And what causes people in a place like, let's say, Bangladesh or parts of India, still in the north,

15:33 to have relatively very high fertility rates?

15:38 Is it because they are intrinsically violent people compared to the Japanese or the Germans?

15:44 No, that's not the thing.

15:46 Even when the fertility rates are going down,

15:51 they are going down because of the desire to consume life even more deeply.

15:59 I do not want to spend time on the kid because I want to rather spend time vacationing and touring the globe.

16:06 Now my question is, having a child has a great carbon footprint.

16:13 And if I do not have a child because I want to consume all kinds of material prosperity

16:20 and I want to be a globe trotter, I want to be flying, let's say, 30 to 40 days per year,

16:27 is that going to reduce the carbon footprint compared to the decision of having a child

16:32 or is it going to be just equal to that?

16:35 So, mere reduction of population in itself will not be sufficient

16:41 because the reduction in population itself will be a by-product of prosperity

16:46 and prosperity itself has a carbon footprint.

16:49 So, please tell me how is just prosperity going to help when prosperity itself means carbon?

16:54 Prosperity means carbon, our emotions mean carbon, everything that we do simply means carbon

17:00 because at the center of our existence is a lot of carbon.

17:05 It is, indeed.

17:07 No, and I agree with you. I mean, it is essentially the reason that people are having fewer children.

17:15 And not only in the wealthiest countries, but as I said, also in China now,

17:21 is fundamentally they feel like they can't afford them

17:25 because of the expectations that life is about consumption

17:32 and is about having that car and that apartment and all of those things.

17:38 And so, yeah, I'd love to hear how do we then, from your perspective,

17:44 make that transition to a better and more healthy relationship with each other and with the planet

17:52 and de-emphasize the need to have a closet full of clothes that you never wear

17:59 or, you know, three cars and, you know, how do we move in that direction?

18:05 First of all, I want to give due credit and acknowledgement to technology.

18:11 I'm just not decrying the role of technology.

18:15 We need better technologies today.

18:18 But I see their role more as that of analgesics.

18:24 There is a lot of pain, there is a lot of current immediate pain.

18:29 And therefore, we need better technologies to manage that pain.

18:33 Technology cannot really cure this situation, but can give us a temporary relief.

18:41 Also, it can give us a longer rope with which to maneuver our way towards a solution.

18:51 So, the window that we have, I suppose that's what you said, the window that we have is broadened by technology.

18:59 So, first of all, yes, due credit technology.

19:02 Now, I want to put forward the reservations that I have with respect to technology.

19:08 Technology shows us a false dawn.

19:12 So, if I, for example, get an air conditioner, in India, we have these star ratings on ACs.

19:20 And if you have a higher star rating, it means that the power consumption is relatively lower.

19:26 And India is a relatively warm place.

19:31 And as people get prosperous, one of the first things that they want in their homes is more air conditioners.

19:37 Initially, people start with having air conditioner in one of the rooms.

19:40 And then they want air conditioners in all two rooms, three rooms, and if they have, five rooms.

19:45 So, let's say we have a young one in the family who has been sensitized in the school or in the college about the enormity of this problem of climate.

19:58 So, he raises his hands up and he says, "No, nothing doing, we cannot have so many ACs and it's not good for the climate."

20:05 The elder sister comes in and says, "Look, technology has brought in this new AC with a five star rating and it consumes far lesser power."

20:19 Now, that brings in a false sense of complacency.

20:25 We used to have these very antiquated cars that we kind of inherited from the British, ambassador cars.

20:36 And they used to be really great instruments of pollution of all kinds, including noise pollution.

20:46 So, they were phased away.

20:48 Now, you would hardly see any of them on Indian roads.

20:51 Now, we have really sleek modern cars. In fact, we share a lot of them with the Americans, with the Europeans.

20:57 And we have the same models running here.

20:59 But what has happened?

21:00 What has happened is that the numbers have increased so very exponentially that the total emission count is nowhere close to what we used to have in the 70s or 80s.

21:14 So, in spite of better and greener and more efficient technologies on the net, we stand very poorly compared to where we did even four decades back.

21:26 So, from a macro perspective, is betterment in technology really helping?

21:32 Or is it enabling the consumer of the technology to consume more and more with impunity and with the false assurance that you see I now have a moral license as well.

21:47 I am not a climate offender anymore because the technology that I am consuming is so very green.

21:53 No, I have a Tesla now rather than a Suzuki or a Hyundai.

21:58 The thing is, is a Tesla really carbon neutral?

22:02 Well, you know, I agree with you and I think we're getting back to that fundamental question of kind of too many people consuming too many things.

22:11 But I would say that there is a shift, right?

22:15 That I mean, it's not just green technology, it's low carbon technology.

22:20 And again, how do we buy, how do we extend the window?

22:23 How do we buy time?

22:24 We have to move to a 100% renewable energy economy globally, right?

22:33 And stop burning fossil fuels, that's one thing we have to do.

22:36 And the other thing we have to do is figure out how to develop regenerative agriculture techniques that trap carbon in the soil.

22:43 And that also raise the income and livelihoods of farmers, small farmers in particular.

22:49 So those two technology changes, a shift to 100% renewable energy, and that means battery powered everything,

22:58 and regenerative agriculture that pulls carbon out of the atmosphere and increases the well-being of farmers.

23:05 Those are the two things that buy us the time.

23:09 Now, it is true that there's so much greenwashing though.

23:14 And what we have to keep our eye on is, okay, I have all these new technologies, but is my carbon footprint going up or down?

23:20 That's, you know, as an individual, as a nation, as a company, that's the measure.

23:26 And we can't be distracted by these shiny new toys that claim to be green or whatever,

23:32 when they really are just enabling more consumption, more pollution.

23:38 So I think we can make progress there.

23:43 But then again, I agree with you that ultimately the problem lies in us understanding our relationship with each other and with the earth.

23:56 And how do we get there? Because that is the hard...

24:00 How do we get eight or nine billion people to have that kind of a consciousness shift?

24:06 And I think the opportunity, as you say, is now, I mean, because we are in crisis with the earth.

24:13 Yes, yes, yes. I mean, I think we have to begin with our schools.

24:17 There has to be a basic self-inquiry process with the kids.

24:26 I don't know whether it sounds outlandish, as I say it. Even if it does, let's think about it.

24:33 Why not ask the kids, why are we born? Why do we exist at all?

24:38 And we don't want to come from a religion or a scripture or a particular ideology.

24:43 Let's have a freewheeling discussion on this thing. Why do we exist at all? What's the purpose?

24:49 The thing is, once we are sensitized to this question and it becomes something important in the mind,

24:58 then the purpose of life is no more mere consumption.

25:04 And when you do not have a great purpose, a lively and a lovable purpose to live by,

25:13 then the only thing one lives for is just consumption.

25:17 And unfortunately, it seems that a huge majority of the people across the world are living

25:27 very purposelessly and hence they live just to consume.

25:31 And that's the reason why we measure the progresses of countries through their GDPs.

25:39 That's why everything that we want to talk of has to be talked in numbers,

25:44 and particularly numbers denoting money. I'm again not a money hater or something.

25:54 I'm rather pro-life and pro-purpose.

25:58 How will you stop a person from just trying out the next thing in the market if he has nothing else in his life?

26:08 And how will you stop a company, let's say a consumer goods company,

26:14 from producing the next attractive and alluring thing

26:21 if the owners and the stakeholders in that company want nothing but money

26:27 because that's all that they have in their life?

26:30 You see, we talked of reaching carbon neutral stage.

26:36 Let's have great technologies, but I just want to open the question.

26:42 Aren't we trusting ourselves just too much?

26:46 And if we look at the track record of our species, do we really deserve to be trusted so much?

26:53 I mean, right now, one particular element, carbon, is the problem.

26:57 How do you know and how are you so sure that in the process of dealing with carbon,

27:03 we will not make nitrogen the next big problem?

27:06 It already is coming up, right? Nitrogen is an issue.

27:09 Just that this issue will probably become large enough and frightening enough three decades later.

27:15 Sulphur is an issue and all kinds of heavy metals are an issue.

27:20 But we are not talking of heavy metals so much today.

27:24 We are not talking of sulphur so much today.

27:26 We are not talking of lead and arsenic so much today.

27:28 We are not talking of radioactive stuff so much today.

27:31 In mitigating carbon, I am afraid we are going to prop up some other problem

27:38 because we as a species, I am saying with all humility, are not wise enough.

27:46 Do we think we are just too smart?

27:48 So we try this, we try that and then we, you know,

27:54 that's a representative of the oldest civilization speaking to the newest one.

28:02 Well, please help us, help me understand how we become wiser because I mean, I do agree with you.

28:07 I think the idea of purpose is interesting.

28:10 I run an MBA program in sustainability so it's a business program.

28:15 But the vision of the business program is how do you build a business that's actually in business

28:22 to solve critical social and environmental problems like climate change.

28:27 How do you do that, right?

28:29 And of course it has to be financially successful.

28:31 It's a business. It has to make enough money to cover its costs.

28:35 But how do you put purpose first and then have financial success and profitability follow?

28:42 What's interesting is that this idea of purpose-driven business has become very popular

28:47 in Europe and the United States at least as kind of the way to, the better way to make money, right?

28:55 Because if you can, people want purpose in life and if a company can provide its employees

29:00 and its consumers with a sense of purpose, then it will be more successful.

29:08 And then of course you get into this question of is it greenwashing, you know,

29:12 and is it just a smoke screen or is the company really dedicated to purpose?

29:17 And one of my professors, Hunter Lovins, likes to say that hypocrisy is the first step towards real change.

29:24 So that if you at least get people committed to purpose, then you can hold them accountable

29:28 and begin to move them along those dimensions.

29:32 But, you know, human life has evolved under capitalism, right, to elevate consumption as the road to status.

29:43 Right? And status is what we're hard, in my opinion, is what we are hardwired for by evolution, right?

29:50 Because, you know, we all seek status in our communities and the way we get it is through consumption.

29:56 How can we build societies in which people gain self-worth and status without that?

30:01 I mean, we can look to indigenous communities, for example, in the United States,

30:06 there's a potlatch culture in the northwestern US where people actually gain status by giving things away.

30:12 The more you gave away, the higher the status that you achieved in your community.

30:17 Can we make that shift?

30:19 No, the thing is, why do we need status at all? When we said that we need to initiate this discussion among young kids,

30:30 why don't we ask them this question? Why do you need to draw your self-worth or self-esteem from somebody else?

30:38 Because as long as we need those things from others, we will need a lot of goods from the world.

30:45 You see, these two things are so very interlinked, no? I want my self-worth to come from the world.

30:52 And I want objects that supply me happiness to come from the world.

30:58 Must I be so dependent on the world? It is not a condition of great helplessness.

31:04 The world can withdraw its sanction anytime. The world can withdraw the status it gave to me anytime.

31:10 Universities, when they offer degrees, they attach a rider.

31:16 Even the degrees can be risk-indebted. My degrees are not with me forever.

31:23 So if I attach my identity to my educational qualifications, I am running a risk and I will be afraid.

31:29 Should I really live like this? Must I really live like this?

31:33 You talked of sustainable businesses in the MBA program you referred to.

31:38 And when it comes to MBA programs, I have been through a pretty prestigious MBA program.

31:44 So what really is the definition of success? When do I call myself successful?

31:50 And if I do not have a rigorous definition of success, then no amount of money will suffice.

31:58 When do I say I am really successful? A related question is, and you would find it interesting, doctor.

32:06 Why do businesses fail? I have mentored a few businesses and in my limited experience,

32:15 I have seen businesses fail because they fail really to live up to the expectations of their founders.

32:24 Businesses don't fail. They just prove too inadequate compared to the ambition of those who launched them.

32:35 So do I really require to be a superstar to have a successful business? No.

32:41 I just need to have modest ambitions and my business will be successful.

32:46 Unless the idea is really rotten. I cannot sell coombs to what I will be two decades later to a person like me.

32:58 So unless we have that kind of mindless idea, businesses are not really going to fail

33:07 and achieving profitability or sustainability in business is not going to be such a Herculean task.

33:14 But because we want just too much from life, hence businesses fail.

33:20 I want to spend this much, I want to have at least this thick a bottom line and that's not what I am getting.

33:28 So I would rather shut shop. This kind of a thing happens.

33:32 I had thought I would come up with an IPO in the fourth year, break-even in eight months and that's not materializing.

33:41 And why am I not having that break-even thing in eight months flat?

33:45 So if I love really what I do, will I ever let it fail? That's my question.

33:51 So let me get back to your idea of engaging young people with the idea of purpose

33:56 and helping them understand that purpose is not about dying with the most toys as we like to say.

34:02 That should not be your purpose in life. And I think that young people are open to that.

34:10 There's something about young people that they are searching for that.

34:15 And perhaps that should be the goal of the teaching, right?

34:18 Is to help young people question this sort of commitment to endless consumption.

34:28 How do you, if you, and I see many young people in the United States who are choosing veganism for climate reasons,

34:38 living plastic-free lives, trying to explore what it really means to be in a right relationship with themselves and the earth.

34:49 So how do we, but it's a small group, right? It's 1%.

34:57 How do we expand that appeal of that kind of questioning of life to more young people?

35:04 Teach-ins, just as you are approaching them, we'll have to teach.

35:12 And I suppose any good business today to survive has to first of all generate awareness.

35:22 Therefore, it has to be in the business of teaching, right?

35:26 Because the right product today would need an aware buyer.

35:36 You just cannot sell the right thing to the wrong person.

35:40 If I am someone conditioned by generations of consumptions of advertising and misplaced cultural values,

35:50 and somebody comes up with a great product or great service, I am not going to buy that.

35:57 So if I come up with something that really is good from an internal perspective, from an ecological perspective,

36:07 then I will have to first of all generate awareness.

36:10 And I will have to be prepared to go that extra mile and put in that much of extra effort.

36:17 So the business of teaching is what this world needs today.

36:22 I am not saying one has to be in that sense just a teacher, but you will have to be a teacher as well.

36:29 You want to come up for example with a great vegan cafe or a great vegan recipe or a packaged vegan product

36:39 in a place let's say like North India where there is not much sensitivity or awareness regarding veganism

36:49 and where dairy production and consumption is a cultural value.

36:54 First of all you will have to educate the population.

36:58 And you will have to educate the population to a point where they are prepared to accept the product

37:04 even if it turns out a little expensive, though typically it won't be extra expensive,

37:10 but even if it is, education will make it acceptable and affordable to people.

37:16 Same thing when it comes to clothes, when it comes to automobiles, when it comes to even tourism destinations,

37:26 or when it comes to means of gratification.

37:32 That's what we need today.

37:35 You please tell me, otherwise I am curious to know how can I have a great business in a market that does not value that business.

37:46 How will I get my employees, how will I get my vendors, how will I get my customers?

37:53 Even the government is not going to support me.

37:56 Rather I would find that the government is subsidizing my competitor

38:00 and that competitor is feasting on all kinds of rotten and polluting technologies.

38:05 But because that competitor has a market around him and in a democracy,

38:10 it's the numbers that matter so the government seems to be more aligned with him.

38:14 How will I survive in the market?

38:16 So I have to be an educator.

38:18 I know that's going to be tough.

38:20 But then as a young person, when we are talking of that segment, as a young person,

38:25 I ought to have the stamina for troubles.

38:30 Why not?

38:31 That's what would probably make life worth living.

38:34 Yes.

38:36 Well, I think we are in agreement that fundamentally education is the key

38:42 and that we need people with a different vision of how humans should be living on the planet

38:51 to become educators.

38:53 And I'll just say that the vision of our teach-in really is just to recognize that many, many, many teachers,

39:03 many, many students, many, many staff members at universities and high schools and secondary schools,

39:09 they understand the depth of the climate crisis.

39:12 They know that this is existential.

39:14 They know that if we do not change course, that we are going to be experiencing a world where in many parts of the world,

39:24 it will simply be too hot to live, where sea levels will rise, where crops will fail.

39:30 And they're frightened of that.

39:34 And it is a moment to really rethink what are we doing on this planet, if this is the direction that we're headed.

39:43 And so the purpose of the teach-in is to just bring all of those people together and have this conversation.

39:51 Yes, we can buy time with technology.

39:54 Yes, we can do that.

39:55 But at the end of the day, what is this telling us about humans and the way we're living on the planet?

40:02 So that is the purpose of the teach-in.

40:05 It's really creating a community, a global community of educators and giving them the chance to interact with each other.

40:12 We do it on Zoom calls, but also to bring together people in their community with a similar concern to start to have these conversations.

40:21 And when we're talking of consumption, doctor, the very basic kind of consumption, food,

40:33 just as we don't want to talk of our numbers on the planet, because that becomes an emotive issue in a democratic setup,

40:42 we also do not want to talk of our food choices.

40:45 But the fact is, and the numbers are out in the open, that food is probably the largest,

40:52 or if not the largest, the second largest contributor to greenhouse gases emission.

40:57 And we don't want to talk of that.

40:59 And the thing is, carbon emitting food choices are also mostly food choices that involve cruelty towards animals,

41:13 that involve a distorted relationship between our species and the other species.

41:18 The thing is, when we say that we must take care of ourselves, that we must care for our future,

41:24 how will we bring in that kind of self-love?

41:27 I invite us to think about it.

41:29 How will we have that kind of self-love if we do not have love for the other species that inhibited this planet?

41:36 I mean, the very thing on my plate is coming as a result of slaughter.

41:44 Why then will I not be disinterested in stopping the slaughter of the biggest carbon sinks on the planet, the forests?

41:54 For the sake of my food, we are killing not just directly, and even as we have spoken over the last 30 minutes or so,

42:05 millions of animals have been slaughtered in these 30 minutes just for our appetite.

42:11 And not only are these animals being slaughtered, forests are being cleared just so that we can have farms to raise these animals.

42:22 Now when we are clearing those forests, we are erasing the biggest carbon sinks that we can have.

42:31 Also, we are robbing the species of their habitat.

42:37 And in doing all that, how are we displaying any kind of self-love?

42:46 So self-love, when it comes to talking of our own interests as species, self-love has to be inseparable from love towards the wider ecosystem.

42:57 Unfortunately, that's not what our education is teaching young people.

43:02 Otherwise, it's very very easy to take care of this problem.

43:06 All the deadlines that we are setting for ourselves, be it 2030 or 50 or 70, we can overachieve even before those deadlines.

43:19 Because it's we who are doing it, that's the challenge and that's the opportunity.

43:24 It's not being sent down by the gods.

43:28 It's not being conspired by the aliens.

43:32 We are doing it and if we are doing it, we may as well stop it right now.

43:37 But to stop it, we require the kind of consciousness that acknowledges itself as the culprit.

43:44 That acknowledges that it has been living in ignorance and it has been living in ignorance all throughout these centuries.

43:51 Just that the ignorance was not displaying its devastating consequences because our numbers were not so large.

43:58 And because the industrial revolution had yet not happened, therefore we did not have this much power to destruct in our hands.

44:05 Now, we have numbers and we have the industry and we have the technology and the know-how, the knowledge and we have great power.

44:13 And all this is a very very explosive combination.

44:17 So, that's where we are and it's a very slippery slope, very slippery slope.

44:26 I'm fighting it in my little way on a daily basis and I see the challenges.

44:35 And the challenge that I'm seeing, Professor, is really not technological.

44:41 Jealousy, you cannot treat through technology.

44:44 Ignorance, you cannot treat through technology.

44:47 Lovelessness, you cannot treat through technology.

44:49 All the human darkness within, you cannot deal through technology.

44:56 And when I talk of veganism or when I talk of plastic or when I talk of population, when I talk of climate,

45:03 the obstacle that I face, I repeat, is not technological.

45:07 It's not that people are not aware of better technologies.

45:11 It's not that people are not aware of the numbers.

45:14 It's just that people have not been sensitized enough.

45:18 People are not loving enough.

45:20 The norms that we have, the norms post the enlightenment period in Europe,

45:26 the religious values that we have, the distorted religious values, that is, not the really spiritual values,

45:33 they are not at all conducive towards a solution of this problem.

45:41 Education, I think, unfortunately, fortunately, is the only thing that can save us.

45:47 We require huge armies of dedicated educators.

45:53 We require tremendous propaganda.

45:56 We require publicity in all ways, in all forms.

46:00 We require people to go knocking each home and get the doors open and barge in and have tutorials.

46:10 And if that can happen, then probably we can have governments to tax the right things,

46:15 to subsidize the right things, and only then we can have public policy in the right direction.

46:22 Well, you know, I certainly, as an educator myself and someone who is organizing a worldwide teach-in on climate injustice,

46:30 that is a very well-spoken position.

46:34 And I agree with you that there are so many solutions that are within our grasp,

46:45 and diet is obviously a huge piece of that.

46:50 And engaging people in that conversation is part of what we want to do for the teach-in.

46:57 And I think food is a wonderful avenue towards engaging people into their sense of relationship with the planet,

47:06 because you don't have to go very far from what's on your plate to understand how you're impacting the world.

47:13 For me, I wrote a book about 15 years ago called Fighting for Love in the Century of Extinction,

47:19 and in some ways it kind of goes the other way, which is,

47:23 what is it that motivates us to even care about the species of the world?

47:32 Why is that the right thing to do?

47:35 Fundamentally, it's because if you step out into the world and you just look at the sky

47:41 and you touch a handful of earth or you smell the smell coming from the bushes,

47:53 that's something we don't want to lose.

47:55 It's what we are losing, right?

47:57 It's that connection to that world outside.

48:00 And that's a big part of human purpose, I think, is protecting that world

48:07 so that it will be there for our children and all the audience to come.

48:12 The thing there is to go out and be there with the natural aromas

48:18 and just watch an animal or if it is safe enough, just touch a small animal

48:25 or lie under the starry sky and be able to pause and meditate.

48:32 You first of all need values that tell you that you do not need to be chasing success all the time.

48:38 You know, think of an undergrad student.

48:41 Why will he spend his nights watching the starry sky

48:47 if he could rather slog for grades and ensure a better job offer?

48:52 I am not saying one should not study and not secure better grades.

48:56 But the thing is, do we have a culture, do we have the kind of education

49:02 that incentivizes reflectiveness, meditativeness, basic spiritual values like self-inquiry

49:12 or as teachers we are all the time motivating our students and rather pressurizing them

49:21 to do this, to be better, to achieve more, to have higher grades and CGPA

49:28 and a better job offer and internship there and a job there and all those things.

49:32 You know, if the student's success is measured by all these things,

49:37 please tell me why will he just spend time sitting by the sea and doing nothing?

49:42 Don't get me wrong, I am not advising that one should just sit by the sea and do nothing.

49:49 But one should, one should actually.

49:52 A large part of a day, one should do that every month.

49:57 You know, that is a beautiful way to spend your life.

50:00 We will do well together, doctor.

50:02 Yes, we will. And you know, we are coming to the end of our hour

50:06 and I am just so grateful to you for the work you are doing

50:09 and for the perspective that you are sharing.

50:12 It is not one we hear often because we are all so caught up,

50:21 caught up in this race that we need to step off.

50:26 So thank you very, very much for the opportunity to talk with you today.

50:30 It was a wonderful hour, a wonderful hour and I am sure we will have more such conversations in the future.

50:35 Okay, good to speak with you.

50:38 Great, thank you. Thank you so much.

50:40 Thank you.

50:43 No part of this recording may be reproduced

50:45 without Mooji Media Ltd.'s express consent.

50:51 No part of this recording may be reproduced

50:53 without Mooji Media Ltd.'s express consent.

50:55 [Music]

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