Off The Record | Kashif Abbasi | ARY News | 1st April 2024

  • 5 months ago
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(Current Affairs)

Host:
- Kashif Abbasi

Guests:
- Shahbaz Khosa (Lawyer)
- Hasan Raza Pasha (Lawyer)
- Raja Mohsin Ijaz (SC Reporter ARY News)
- Imran Waseem (SC Reporter)

Former CJP excuses himself from heading Judges' Letter Inquiry Commission | Kashif Abbasi's analysis

Hukumati commission banne ke Supreme Court ko suo moto kyu lena para? | Legal Analysis

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Transcript
00:00 Assalamu alaikum, you are watching the program with me, Kashif Abbasi.
00:15 Today, another big development, the Supreme Court has formed a seven-member bench, which
00:19 six judges of the Istanbul High Court, who had written a letter, had put allegations,
00:24 the most serious allegations, the judges and their families are being held hostage.
00:28 There were also allegations that cameras were installed in the living rooms and bedrooms
00:33 of the judges' houses.
00:35 There were also allegations that the judges' families were kidnapped, video statements
00:41 were recorded from them.
00:43 It was also said that the families of the judges were approached and this pressure was
00:48 put on them to meet the operatives of the intelligence agencies.
00:52 So, it was a long story that was brought on paper by six judges and this letter was written
00:59 to the Honourable Chief Justice of Pakistan and the Supreme Judicial Council and asked
01:03 for guidance that the Supreme Judicial Council's code, according to them, is silent about
01:10 how to react if the judge is harassed or approached or coerced by the judge or by the intelligence
01:19 agencies.
01:23 to meet the judges.
01:24 There were also allegations that the Supreme Court of Pakistan had held two full court
01:28 meetings in which it was decided that the Prime Minister of Pakistan, Shabaz Sharif
01:32 Sahib, should be met and that the law minister and Attorney General of Pakistan were present
01:36 with him.
01:37 When the law minister came out, he gave a press conference.
01:39 He said that the Supreme Court of Pakistan has decided that the Supreme Court of Pakistan
01:44 should be met and that the law minister and Attorney General of Pakistan should be present
01:51 with him.
01:52 When the law minister came out, he gave a press conference.
01:55 And he indirectly accused the judges of judicial misconduct.
01:58 He was asked a question that is this judicial misconduct?
02:01 He gave such an answer that he is sitting in an official capacity, he cannot say, but
02:06 this decision should also be made by this commission.
02:09 He said that what is the timing in which he said this?
02:14 Why didn't he say it earlier?
02:16 Although his political community has a history that everything comes to the fore after many
02:21 years.
02:22 Whether it is to take the names of the judges and the mention of the criminals with them,
02:26 then after a long time this comes to us that the big crime had happened.
02:30 So he also accused the timing and said that the timing was not right.
02:34 Anyway, after this meeting, the Supreme Court of Pakistan announces that the decision of
02:39 an inquiry commission was made and an agreement was made between the government and the Supreme
02:44 Court.
02:45 Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
02:47 If this decision had been made, then why was this Suo Moto notice taken today?
02:51 Because this is the government and they had decided.
02:54 During this time, Justice Tasadduk Jalani wrote a letter and apologized for heading this
03:00 commission.
03:01 One man inquiry commission.
03:04 He raised two points.
03:06 The biggest one, which is also very serious, that this letter, because it has been written
03:13 to the Supreme Judicial Council and its Chairman, Chief Justice of Pakistan, it will be a violation
03:20 of judicial propriety for me to inquire into a matter.
03:23 That is, it will be against judicial principles.
03:26 That is, it will be against the jurisdiction of the constitutional body, which is the Supreme
03:31 Judicial Council or the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
03:34 That is, only the Supreme Court of Pakistan or the Supreme Judicial Council can see these
03:38 allegations.
03:39 So, the basis on which this inquiry commission was made, the same basis was rejected by
03:45 Mr. Tasadduk Hussain Jalani, the former Chief Justice of Pakistan.
03:49 He also wrote that the TORs that have been made by the government are not the same as
03:56 the allegations written in the letter.
03:58 They do not conform or according to the, they do not keep in accordance with the letter
04:03 written by the respected judges.
04:05 So, today a new development has taken place and a seven-member bench has been formed.
04:11 Now what will happen?
04:13 How will the investigations of these allegations be carried out?
04:16 Will it be proved that the allegations made by the judges are correct?
04:20 Will the judge himself be present in this matter?
04:23 Will there be an inquiry commission?
04:25 Will there be a JIT?
04:27 Also, will the ISI or the operatives of the intelligence agencies be called?
04:31 Because some names or names have not been given, the designations have been given, the names
04:35 have also been given.
04:36 Those who are accused, will they also be called?
04:39 Why a seven-member bench?
04:40 Why not a full court?
04:41 This debate has been going on for a long time in Pakistan.
04:44 Will this whole investigation be live?
04:49 This is also a very interesting element of all this.
04:52 And are the allegations of Justice Shaukat Siddiqui also very important?
04:57 In this letter, the respected judges have also demanded that the investigations of the
05:02 allegations made by Justice Shaukat Siddiqui also be carried out.
05:05 Their allegations were also serious.
05:07 They had also taken the name.
05:09 They had also told the incidents that when, when, what happened.
05:12 That they should also be included in this.
05:14 They should also be called.
05:15 An audit of the past 8-9 years should be done.
05:17 How are judges approached?
05:20 Let's talk about this.
05:22 Let's also see a little bit that it was in the Supreme Court.
05:25 And what does our Mukhla say about this?
05:27 Mr. Shabaz Kosa, Additional Secretary Supreme Court Bar, Mr. Hassan Raza Pashal, former
05:31 Chairman of the Pakistan Bar Council, thank you very much.
05:33 We will take a little legal view from here.
05:35 And our reporter Mohsin Ijaz is also a Supreme Court reporter.
05:37 Thank you.
05:38 And Imran Basim is also a Supreme Court reporter.
05:39 Thank you.
05:40 We will take a legal view from here.
05:42 But first of all, Mr. Pashal, as far as I have seen, if a commission is formed, before that,
05:49 their opinion is taken.
05:52 Sir, do you have any objection that we have started making you the head of the commission
05:56 or started putting you in that commission?
05:58 I am sure that Mr. Jalani must have been asked first that sir, we have started you.
06:03 And after that, he must have notified.
06:06 Why did Mr. Jalani suddenly realize that he should not do this?
06:10 Was there a lot of pressure?
06:12 Your opinion?
06:13 Brother, there is no other opinion in this that surely Mr. Jalani must have been asked
06:20 by the government that we want to make you the head of the commission.
06:26 And he has given willingness.
06:28 And this is what he did when he was named, that he gave the consent.
06:33 And later, one day when he remained the chairman, then during that time also, the government officials
06:39 kept saying that they have taken their consent, after that they have made him.
06:43 He also thanked the Chief Justice of Pakistan and Justice Manmohan Raj Shah.
06:48 You may remember that.
06:49 That he showed confidence in me.
06:51 This means that he must have spoken to him about this.
06:53 No, see, you see all the events together.
06:58 The first day, the Chief Justice called these judges to his house in the evening, the judges
07:03 of Islamabad High Court.
07:05 Then the next day, the full court meeting.
07:07 And there was no announcement of a full court meeting.
07:10 Immediately after that, the Prime Minister was informed through Attorney General.
07:14 And then the next day, the Prime Minister came.
07:18 And then, immediately after the meeting, the full court.
07:22 It means that the Supreme Court, whether it was a majority opinion or consensus.
07:27 Consensus was developed amongst the majority of the members of the court.
07:31 Majority.
07:32 It means that it was a majority opinion.
07:34 The Chief Justice must have spoken about it with the mandate.
07:37 So, these things, surely, the names must have been discussed.
07:41 And consensus must have been developed on this name, because of which, when the Law Minister
07:47 later, after the meeting, the press conference held, he said that some integrity and good
07:53 fame holder, the Chief Justice.
07:55 This must have happened at that time.
07:57 Why did the Supreme Court come forward?
07:59 Why did the full court meet?
08:01 Why did the 7 member bench be formed?
08:03 I will tell you.
08:04 Maybe, the pressure was not tolerated.
08:07 This is also present in its place.
08:09 And the second thing is that you see, when this letter came to us or to the public,
08:15 before that, the bench was formed and the 7 member bench was formed.
08:22 After that, after a quarter of an hour, Mr. Jalani, now I do not know how he got on the way.
08:29 I spoke to a very important government official, he said that Mr. Jalani had come first.
08:33 He had to say this.
08:35 First he has accused and then the Supreme Court should go.
08:40 I am talking about my knowledge that what came on the screen first and what came later.
08:44 Maybe he informed first, the Supreme Court came and then the Supreme Court took that motion.
08:48 Maybe this happened.
08:49 7 member bench or full court, is there a debate on this too?
08:55 It is going on, sir.
08:57 Actually, the practice and procedure act is in force.
09:02 But if you look at it, then in 184.3, again I say this again and again,
09:07 if someone has the most powers in Pakistan, then he is with the Chief Justice of Pakistan in 184.3.
09:14 And because this is such a case, in one letter, 7 judges have endorsed all these incidents.
09:23 And these are serving judges.
09:25 Not 7, but 6.
09:27 You can say 6, but one letter is written in 7.
09:29 7 means there are no signatures.
09:31 They were not in the country at that time, so they did not have signatures.
09:34 Anyway, even if 6 do it, even if one does it, then this is a judge's...
09:39 One judge had done it, he was thrown out.
09:42 But the judge's decision is a decision, and people's rights are accrued on it.
09:48 So should there be a full court?
09:50 So when a judge's decision goes to two judges in the Supreme Court,
09:53 and the decision of two judges is appealed to three judges,
09:56 then here there is a complaint of six judges, for this a full court was made.
10:00 At least nine judges were made, but it is being given.
10:04 This is also a concept that if you make 8 or 9, then where will the appeal go?
10:08 There is a legal hurdle in this.
10:12 Before this, if this had happened before the Practice and Procedure Act, then it would have been a big deal.
10:18 Now there is a bench for appeal.
10:19 Now for the appeal, you need a bench, whoever is the agreed party.
10:23 We do not go to the merit of the mistake.
10:25 We take its technicalities that if this bench makes a decision, and whoever is the agreed party,
10:31 then under the Practice and Procedure Act, he should get the right to appeal.
10:36 So these judges cannot sit in that, the remaining judges will be the bench members.
10:41 So technically, I think this is the reason.
10:43 But this allegation was also made a lot.
10:45 You will remember Justice Ayesha repeatedly raised this question, if I am not mistaken,
10:50 when this was discussed in the Practice and Procedure Bill, that you have made a full court redundant.
10:54 A full court cannot be made.
10:56 But at that time, I think, on one hand, our Supreme Court was going.
11:00 So there is that grey area, sir, but nonetheless we must celebrate.
11:04 We must celebrate.
11:06 I think if we agree on this, it is better.
11:09 It should not be made controversial.
11:11 It is better than anything.
11:13 We must celebrate, sir, that the judiciary has kept this matter to itself.
11:17 Now we pray for this and at the same time we express our unity with the judiciary,
11:26 that we are standing with them for their independence and freedom.
11:29 And we will protect this hearing.
11:32 It will not happen that in this hearing, someone will hit a stick and go from here to there.
11:37 We want this thread to be there.
11:39 This goes to the fundamental roots of the justice system of Pakistan.
11:44 Here, from the court of the Supreme Court to the Supreme Court, this issue arises again and again.
11:49 Sometimes Mr. Mian says, why did you bring me out?
11:52 Sometimes a 50-year-old judgment comes.
11:54 Sometimes we see Munir's case and sometimes we see...
11:58 They have also concluded Mr. Butto's case.
12:00 Yes, absolutely.
12:01 And we have just seen Mr. Shaukat Siddiqui's case.
12:03 Now look at the Tosha Khana case.
12:05 I myself have been presented there.
12:07 The judge fell ill six times, but there was so much pressure on him...
12:09 But being ill...
12:10 There was so much pressure that he was sentenced to 14 years, which was suspended today.
12:14 So these things...
12:15 But who does not know about this pressure?
12:17 Exactly.
12:18 These are old pressures that have been put in place.
12:19 But the thread bearer should come forward.
12:21 I will come to the reporter's side.
12:23 Mr. Pasha, what will be the method now?
12:25 The first thing the judges accused was that the forum should be correct and there should be an investigation.
12:30 The forum was correct, the investigation will now take place.
12:33 How will it happen?
12:34 Sir, you have asked a very important question.
12:36 Look, if the Supreme Court takes a cognizance in 184(3), then the point in issue is that...
12:47 Can the Supreme Court investigate?
12:50 My view is that the Supreme Court or any high court cannot investigate.
12:56 Even the courts have been discouraged that you cannot interfere in the investigation process.
13:03 Because the investigator will be prejudiced.
13:06 Now the point is very important.
13:08 Even in the Panama case, you remember, the case was sent to the NAB court.
13:12 No, no, no.
13:13 And even after doing the work there...
13:14 No, no, JIT.
13:15 Sir, JIT...
13:16 Even after that, sir, even after that, it was sent to the Panama court.
13:20 Okay, second thing.
13:21 Take the case of Harshad Sharif.
13:23 JIT was also made in that.
13:25 You took the cognizance of 184(3), right?
13:27 Even now, I am struck by one thing here.
13:31 That how will the Supreme Court of Pakistan's seven-member bank collect evidence?
13:39 The inquiry is necessary because it cannot be one-sided.
13:43 Judiciary and execution cannot be one.
13:46 It is against the principle.
13:47 So for this, we will have to go to the commission.
13:50 And I am forcing this question.
13:53 When this bench will sit and all the lawyers, the big lawyers will come,
13:57 then the judge will definitely ask this question, how to start with?
14:01 The answer should come here.
14:03 And the answer is...
14:04 Is there an answer to this?
14:05 Sir, look, these are respected judges.
14:08 There is no kind of allegation on them.
14:10 I will not believe their words.
14:13 I will accept their words.
14:15 I just want to see what were those actions,
14:18 were they individual actions, was it something else, what was the background?
14:22 If it was not, I will not say that judges are lying or there is any doubt in their words.
14:26 The rest is the work of the courts.
14:28 For my understanding, there are six judges.
14:32 Among them, the majority has put the allegation that we have been approached.
14:36 The court will be put, the court will be put.
14:40 What will the court say? You said it, we agreed.
14:42 Is that how they will proceed?
14:44 No, no, that is not how it will be.
14:46 Look, the allegations that the judges have put,
14:49 they will be put in front of the judges as a charge sheet.
14:51 And on the basis of this, the proceedings will go ahead.
14:53 How?
14:54 I am asking the way, not my own way.
14:56 Will you summon those people, those agencies or those people whose names are in the middle?
15:01 What if they refuse?
15:02 No, they will do it.
15:03 The Supreme Court can get help from the army.
15:07 The Supreme Court can take help from any institution under 184/3.
15:11 The Supreme Court can summon any record of any type of investigation.
15:15 The Supreme Court is all powerful in this matter.
15:18 Sir, this is a common civil court, where the evidence leads.
15:22 A witness comes, he says that this happened,
15:24 a question is asked on that, and this happened.
15:26 The truth of the truth and the lie comes out.
15:29 These things, sir, the Supreme Court can do.
15:32 The Supreme Court can do the world's matters.
15:34 My reservation is in place in terms of investigation.
15:37 You will not be able to do this.
15:39 You will have to go to the commission or have to adopt some other method.
15:43 Otherwise, look, the Supreme Court,
15:45 I have given you two examples, the one from the Panama Leaks case and the one from the Arshad Sharif case.
15:50 You see that they went to the JIT,
15:52 and we would never want a JIT to be formed in this regard,
15:55 that our respected judges are presented in front of an IG, inspector or DIG.
16:00 Then you will not have any other support other than the judicial personalities.
16:05 Still, you will not be able to form a commission.
16:07 Sir, it will be formed on the judicial side, if you form one.
16:10 That is the commission of the federal government.
16:12 Then the judge will appoint one of his own 15 members.
16:15 No, sir, no. You will appoint a judge, whoever you want.
16:18 Judges will appoint, the federal government will not.
16:20 Okay, okay. Now the TOR will decide judicially.
16:22 The judge will decide judicially.
16:23 Oversight judicially.
16:24 The federal government will not.
16:25 You see, there is a lot of difference between the two.
16:27 And this will be in their control, instead of being in someone else's control.
16:31 You see in Arshad Sharif, what progress has been made.
16:33 Where is the progress? It is a national level case. What has happened?
16:37 Nothing has happened.
16:38 I just keep saying this again and again, and that is why, listen to me,
16:41 I will ask the boys, I will come back to you, I don't have any other question.
16:45 No problem.
16:46 The biggest beneficiary of all these pressures,
16:50 is the sitting government.
16:53 All these pressures will be put on Imran Khan's case.
16:57 And if decisions are made against him, then who is his beneficiary?
17:00 Or in someone's favor.
17:02 Now in someone's favor, but his beneficiary is Shabaz Sharif's government.
17:06 One thing, I will say, there has been no such case in the court,
17:11 in which it has been said that this case has been decided due to pressure.
17:16 There is no such thing.
17:17 At least, these 6 months,
17:19 Sir, Arshad Malik's video repeatedly points towards the Noon League.
17:24 If I ask you today, whether the video is correct or not, you will say that there was pressure.
17:28 Which one?
17:29 Arshad Malik, the deceased.
17:30 Yes, yes.
17:31 That video is not relevant today.
17:34 That is relevant.
17:36 Let me ask from inside, what has happened?
17:39 Kashif bhai, you see, first a full court hearing took place,
17:43 after that, a commission was made on Justice Tasduk Jalani.
17:48 I would like to say that when a commission was made on him,
17:52 initially he was told that a full court hearing has been made on your name,
17:57 and therefore, we have decided,
17:59 I mean, this decision has been made,
18:00 the government has also agreed that you will do this.
18:02 They also agreed.
18:04 After that, when news started coming that some judges have objected,
18:10 they asked for minutes of a full court meeting.
18:13 They did not get minutes of a full court meeting.
18:15 When they did not get minutes of a meeting and news started coming in a different way,
18:19 after that they recused.
18:22 But the reasons they have told,
18:24 See, they have told the reasons also,
18:25 it is a very serious allegation itself.
18:26 They have said that the Chief Justice should himself look into this matter at the level of the institution.
18:31 Either Supreme Judicial Council or Supreme Court.
18:32 They have also written that Supreme Judicial Council has already done it.
18:34 No, no sir.
18:35 They have said,
18:36 it would be violative of judicial propriety for me to inquire into a matter
18:40 which may fall within the jurisdiction of a constitutional body
18:43 which is the Supreme Judicial Council or the Supreme Court of Pakistan itself.
18:48 They have said that either one of them can do this,
18:50 I cannot do this, my propriety does not allow this.
18:53 Then because of this, they have recused.
18:55 See, they have recused and after that,
18:57 the sequence of news is exactly like this.
18:59 First, the news came that Askud was noticed and after that the news came that the letter of the judge was sent.
19:04 The pressure, the outside pressure of the Bar Council,
19:06 otherwise, does it have any role?
19:07 Definitely, it has a role.
19:09 See, the pressures were of that kind also.
19:10 You know, a letter had come from his house also,
19:13 from his son's side.
19:15 He had rejected the commission.
19:18 Justice Tassadook Jalani's son had sent him a letter.
19:22 Jalani's reputation, he was a judge with a good reputation
19:27 and he thought it appropriate that I should not be in any dispute.
19:31 He separated himself from this.
19:32 It is possible that after that, he may have contacted someone else also.
19:35 But this matter is such that everyone…
19:37 Okay, it is possible that he contacted someone else but no one agreed.
19:40 Imran, the announcement of the Supreme Court
19:44 said that in the full court meeting,
19:46 this decision was made, a consensus was developed amongst the majority.
19:50 A consensus was made in the majority that
19:52 the Prime Minister has to meet Pakistan.
19:54 The situation is very serious.
19:56 And after the meeting, the Prime Minister went.
19:59 Then what happened?
20:00 Were not all the judges on board for that meeting?
20:03 How many were not on board?
20:04 Then what happened?
20:05 Was there any tension in this matter?
20:08 Look, Mr. Kashif, what you have said,
20:13 all the judges were on board.
20:16 But the question is, how many judges were there
20:20 who were in favour of the Government Commission?
20:23 How many judges were there who wanted
20:25 to take notice of this on the judicial side?
20:28 So, the press list that was issued by the Supreme Court
20:32 clearly states that the majority of the judges
20:36 were in favour of the Government Judicial Commission
20:40 investigating this matter.
20:42 But Mr. Kashif, the developments that are taking place today,
20:47 it seems that the work that was to be done later,
20:51 will be done now.
20:53 If this Judicial Commission remained intact,
20:55 and the Judge Jilani would have investigated this matter,
20:58 called the relevant people,
21:01 their activities would have been recorded,
21:03 the allegations would have been called,
21:05 and a hearing would have been held on them,
21:07 then a report would have come,
21:08 a report would have been compiled.
21:10 Then that report would have come before the Supreme Court,
21:13 and after coming to the Supreme Court,
21:15 my guess is that the matter would have to be discussed
21:17 on the judicial side.
21:19 There would have to be a hearing on the judicial side.
21:21 But now, because there is a lot of pressure
21:24 from social media and national media,
21:26 a letter was written from 300-400 journalists,
21:29 and then this case was submitted.
21:31 But this can happen now, right, Imran?
21:33 The problem is that what you are saying,
21:35 it can happen now.
21:37 The seven-member bench should form an inquiry commission,
21:41 its report should be submitted to the Supreme Court,
21:43 and the Supreme Court should proceed on it.
21:45 My first question is about the report
21:47 on the Hamoodur Rehman Commission.
21:49 Mr. Kashif, my opinion is that
21:51 what Mr. Jilani has denied today,
21:53 the people who are celebrating this,
21:57 I think, will ultimately be losers.
22:00 An excellent person, who was given a commission,
22:03 who had received support from the Supreme Court judges,
22:06 had to deny it only because of the pressure from social media.
22:09 The letter that is being written,
22:11 that this matter can be discussed in the Supreme Court,
22:14 or it can be discussed in the Supreme Judicial Council,
22:17 that letter of six judges,
22:19 it is going on the national media,
22:21 it went on social media, it went viral,
22:24 before giving that letter of consent,
22:26 the judge Jilani must have not read it,
22:28 this cannot happen.
22:30 And then in this letter, Mr. Jilani has also written that,
22:33 he is writing that the destination of this letter,
22:36 which has been sent to the Supreme Judicial Council,
22:38 this destination is not correct.
22:40 But he says that I think that the Chief Justice of Pakistan,
22:43 he is the head of the institution,
22:45 he should solve this issue at the institutional level.
22:49 Now the thing is that the case is taken,
22:51 the Sath Rukni bench has also been formed,
22:53 but what will be the future course of action,
22:55 on which the case is being discussed.
22:57 As Mr. Hassan Raza Pasha has also said,
22:59 if the Government Commission does not accept,
23:01 then how will the Supreme Court investigate this matter?
23:03 From whom will it be investigated?
23:05 Will it be investigated by the executive?
23:07 Let's talk about this,
23:09 I will take a break.
23:11 How will this investigation be done?
23:13 If either of you want to give an answer,
23:15 I had also heard,
23:17 that the judges of the High Court,
23:19 were not satisfied with the one-man commission,
23:21 which was made.
23:23 Let's take a break.
23:25 We will be back after the break.
23:27 Welcome back viewers.
23:35 We are talking about the Sath Rukni,
23:37 Sath Member Bench,
23:39 which has been formed,
23:41 to investigate the allegations of the six judges of the High Court.
23:43 Imran, you had spoken with Mr. Jalani,
23:45 Sado Khusain Jalani.
23:47 What were you saying,
23:49 after the formation of the commission?
23:51 He had agreed to this commission.
23:53 Kashif Fasih,
23:57 I had spoken twice,
23:59 on Saturday,
24:01 when the news of the formation of the commission was coming out.
24:03 In fact, the decision had been made to form a commission.
24:05 The meeting of the trustee committee was going on,
24:07 through a video link.
24:09 So I called,
24:11 I got a hint from somewhere,
24:13 that there would be the head of the commission.
24:15 I called him,
24:17 he attended the call,
24:19 and told me that he was sitting somewhere,
24:21 because I had introduced him to him,
24:23 he knew me,
24:25 he said that he was sitting somewhere,
24:27 and he could not talk.
24:29 So when the commission was announced,
24:31 Prime Minister Shahbashib announced,
24:33 the government said that Mr. Jalani has agreed.
24:35 So I spoke to him,
24:37 and I told him that
24:39 I had called you in this regard,
24:41 and told you that you are becoming the head of the commission,
24:43 or not.
24:45 So Mr. Jalani's response was that,
24:47 I had not given consent till then.
24:49 Then I asked him,
24:51 how will you do this work?
24:53 Then he said that it would be very challenging for me,
24:55 and then my question was,
24:57 from when will you start?
24:59 He said that the TORs are today,
25:01 I have not seen them yet,
25:03 after reading them,
25:05 I will decide,
25:07 from when and how I will start the investigation,
25:09 Interesting.
25:11 We saw the TORs,
25:13 and then he raised questions on TORs in his letter.
25:15 Were some judges taking petitions?
25:17 There was news in the market that 6 judges of the High Court,
25:19 are not satisfied with the commission,
25:21 and they want the Supreme Court to hear this case.
25:23 I have a question for both of you.
25:25 Yes, Kachhbari,
25:27 they were definitely taking it,
25:29 and not only that,
25:31 but different bar associations and other petitioners,
25:33 were also approaching the Supreme Court.
25:35 Now the case of SoMoto,
25:37 which was fixed for Wednesday,
25:39 will be heard in the Supreme Court,
25:41 and will be connected to this case.
25:43 This SoMoto,
25:45 was a reason for Jalani's recusal,
25:47 and the other reason was,
25:49 the content of the petition,
25:51 which was being brought,
25:53 and that was the reason,
25:55 for the SoMoto.
25:57 The government was very surprised,
25:59 when I spoke to someone,
26:01 they were very surprised,
26:03 they said that everything was fixed,
26:05 in a mutual meeting,
26:07 and that was the reason,
26:09 for the recusal.
26:11 Kachhbari, the real thing is,
26:13 when they came to know,
26:15 that Jalani was not even mentioned in the Supreme Court,
26:17 they thought it was appropriate.
26:19 The pressure was such,
26:21 that many people,
26:23 even their children,
26:25 and many other people,
26:27 and different bar associations,
26:29 raised questions on this,
26:31 and it was also said,
26:33 that if there are 6 judges of the High Court,
26:35 and not 6 judges,
26:37 and if we leave one,
26:39 all the judges are on one side,
26:41 and if the High Court,
26:43 is pressuring us,
26:45 then how could a retired judge,
26:47 see this,
26:49 and make TORs,
26:51 and the expectations were,
26:53 that SoMoto should be taken,
26:55 and the case should be seen,
26:57 on the judicial side.
26:59 SoMoto was done,
27:01 and the letter was sent,
27:03 and the petition was also sent.
27:05 Yes, Imran.
27:07 Kashif sir,
27:09 as far as,
27:11 SoMoto is concerned,
27:13 they have done the recusal,
27:15 and the recusal,
27:17 the petition that was circulated on social media,
27:19 and the different people,
27:21 wrote their names,
27:23 and owned it,
27:25 and due to the pressure,
27:27 they did it,
27:29 and there is no other reason.
27:31 The petition could have been settled down,
27:33 it was not a big issue,
27:35 and you can challenge TORs,
27:37 on a court forum,
27:39 or in the High Court,
27:41 and TORs did not have an issue,
27:43 the issue was that,
27:45 due to the pressure,
27:47 Jalani sir has refused.
27:49 Now, the Supreme Court,
27:51 has taken the notice,
27:53 and after taking the notice,
27:55 how will the investigation be done,
27:57 is the important question,
27:59 that is the issue.
28:01 Did you hear about the petition,
28:03 that was circulated on social media,
28:05 Imran, you cover the Supreme Court,
28:07 and you say that,
28:09 the issue was there,
28:11 and it was being discussed,
28:13 did you hear about it?
28:15 Kashif,
28:17 such things keep happening,
28:19 but until a petition is filed,
28:21 in the Supreme Court,
28:23 there is an example,
28:25 that some references,
28:27 were filed against some judges,
28:29 but later it was found,
28:31 that the references,
28:33 were not valid,
28:35 so until,
28:37 something lands in the Supreme Court,
28:39 you cannot say anything,
28:41 yes, we can say,
28:43 that the issues are fine,
28:45 as far as the rumors are concerned,
28:47 but we have not seen,
28:49 any such issue in the Supreme Court,
28:51 that a petition has been filed,
28:53 so far as the rumors are concerned,
28:55 the judges have written in this letter,
28:57 that the allegations of Shaukat Siddiqui,
28:59 should be investigated,
29:01 why not,
29:03 if you have taken this vote,
29:05 then why the current time,
29:07 why not the previous time,
29:09 see, in this time span,
29:11 the first drop of rain,
29:13 was from Shaukat Siddiqui,
29:15 and he,
29:17 Mr. Abbas,
29:19 the time,
29:21 when in the association meeting,
29:23 he gave a speech,
29:25 coincidentally,
29:27 I was there,
29:29 and I was the second last,
29:31 I was the witness,
29:33 he said,
29:35 that he has evidence,
29:37 and he is ready to give it,
29:39 very next day,
29:41 he wrote a letter to the Chief Justice,
29:43 and said that I have said this,
29:45 I have proof,
29:47 I am ready to give it,
29:49 it so happened,
29:51 that the Supreme Judicial Council,
29:53 was already having a reference against him,
29:55 he made a new foundation,
29:57 without giving him,
29:59 the opportunity of defence,
30:01 he removed him,
30:03 and he was sitting there,
30:05 that he came within minutes,
30:07 he signed it,
30:09 then when the petition was filed,
30:11 in the Supreme Court of Pakistan,
30:13 then you know,
30:15 we were waiting for the superannuation,
30:17 and when it was released,
30:19 because it is a settled principle,
30:21 that no one should be,
30:23 unheard condemned,
30:25 Sir, that is done,
30:27 now you include that too,
30:29 Sir, that should be done,
30:31 that what happened at that time,
30:33 they went home,
30:35 they were coerced,
30:37 they were harassed,
30:39 and the bench fixing,
30:41 when we will go to the hearing,
30:43 we will not only look at one side of the judges,
30:45 we will look at the old judges too,
30:47 and we will point out to the jurists,
30:49 that they should also look at it,
30:51 it will be easier for the Supreme Court,
30:53 that there is a precedent,
30:55 as a Bar Council,
30:57 would you go to the court and say,
30:59 Sir, this is also a case,
31:01 absolutely, the Supreme Court,
31:03 has taken the court's suomoto,
31:05 the Supreme Court itself needs,
31:07 that in this letter,
31:09 the investigation of Shaukat Siddiqui,
31:11 should be done,
31:13 I will add,
31:15 that the judge Bashir,
31:17 but if he is also called,
31:19 because I have been present in the cases of Dardari,
31:21 how Dardari's cases were bulldozed,
31:23 that too,
31:25 Judge Bashir,
31:27 he has also said,
31:29 that he should be given,
31:31 Fatiha Islamabad,
31:33 I was also present in the cases of Imran Khan,
31:35 the way,
31:37 Sultan Salauddin was also there,
31:39 Sultan Salauddin,
31:41 Bashir was also there,
31:43 I will go one step ahead,
31:45 this is not just interference in judicial matters,
31:47 it is also in your matters,
31:49 there are journalists,
31:51 journalists are also present,
31:53 see, we have all the institutions of Pakistan,
31:55 you,
31:57 journalists are all Pakistani,
31:59 we have Pakistan in our hearts,
32:01 we are sitting here for Pakistan,
32:03 we all want,
32:05 every institution,
32:07 is very dear to us,
32:09 should work in their own areas,
32:11 and let them work there,
32:13 and let them work for Pakistan,
32:15 we all should work together,
32:17 but we should work in our own areas,
32:19 this is our first and foremost wish.
32:21 This is the real role.
32:23 Justice Jalani has also mentioned
32:25 about institutional consultation,
32:27 I just want to know,
32:29 should there be such a consultation,
32:31 are there pressures on other judges,
32:33 can this MeToo movement start with judges,
32:35 Imran, starting with you,
32:37 do you think,
32:39 that if there are grievances,
32:41 then you should come and tell,
32:43 instead of saying you are late.
32:45 See, there is a forum of this,
32:49 of National Judicial Policy Committee,
32:51 there are chief judges,
32:53 there are chief judges of High Court,
32:55 they can sit and make a policy,
32:57 that what can be your code of conduct,
32:59 or if there is pressure on judges,
33:01 how can they react to it,
33:03 but here,
33:05 as Shabaz Bhai has said,
33:07 we should call Judge Mohammad Bashir,
33:09 so when we have reiterated the allegations
33:11 of Shaukat Aziz Sreeki,
33:13 that there should be an investigation,
33:15 then if we have to call judges,
33:17 then we have to call
33:19 former Chief Justice Saqib Nisar,
33:21 and also former Chief Justice Umar Ta Bandyal,
33:23 and also Judge Javed Zia-ul-Hasan.
33:25 Today, the letter that Judge Sahiban has written,
33:27 before writing this letter,
33:29 he had gone to former Chief Justice
33:31 for a meeting,
33:33 he should also be asked,
33:35 that in that meeting,
33:37 what was the assurance
33:39 that former Chief Justice Umar Ta Bandyal
33:41 had given him,
33:43 that today, the allegations that
33:45 Supreme Judicial Council is being sent
33:47 in the form of a letter,
33:49 Sir, the same allegations
33:51 that were sent by the Supreme Judicial Council,
33:53 that too, it was written in the letter,
33:55 that they had talked to someone
33:57 and assured us.
33:59 No, if so,
34:01 my opinion is that
34:03 they should convert this letter
34:05 into a reference against the High Court,
34:07 and then the judges who have put allegations,
34:09 should ask for evidence from them,
34:11 that you have put allegations on your Chief Justice,
34:13 he did nothing,
34:15 then they should prove their allegations.
34:17 By the way, they said that
34:19 they should also be questioned
34:21 on the Chief Justice of Islamabad High Court,
34:23 why didn't they do anything?
34:25 One thing is that,
34:27 whether you call a judge or not,
34:29 but the two judges who have recently
34:31 been in the High Court,
34:33 they have been questioned,
34:35 and then the proceedings of Muzahid Naqvi,
34:37 they should be questioned,
34:39 that why did you get separated from those proceedings,
34:41 and all the X-Party proceedings were done against you.
34:43 See, what you are saying,
34:45 that the government did this,
34:47 and he did that,
34:49 look, the Bar Council, Supreme Court,
34:51 and the government,
34:53 this is on the same page,
34:55 in the past,
34:57 definitely, you can't see,
34:59 that the government has done this,
35:01 and this is on the same page,
35:03 this has never been seen in the past.
35:05 Secondly, you can see the past 6 months,
35:07 in 6 months, you can see,
35:09 that this government,
35:11 this government somehow,
35:13 if a decision has been made against this government,
35:15 you can tell,
35:17 so many concerns, people,
35:19 I am a critic of the government,
35:21 I am a very big critic,
35:23 now many things are happening legally,
35:25 how long has it been?
35:27 If something goes wrong,
35:29 I will also say, this should have been done,
35:31 this decision should have been made,
35:33 do you remember any such case,
35:35 which was filed,
35:37 in the Supreme Court,
35:39 the one on the level playing field,
35:41 the one on the level playing field,
35:43 the request regarding Dhanli,
35:45 the setup of the case,
35:47 and now see,
35:49 the same lawyer,
35:51 I am sorry,
35:53 the election, and the political party,
35:55 the Supreme Court has taken a very good silence,
35:57 which should not have happened,
35:59 when you save democracy,
36:01 you have to save its foundation,
36:03 and elections are the foundation of that,
36:05 but they let it happen,
36:07 I think they said, see no evil, hear no evil,
36:09 the matter is, if this matter is open,
36:11 then the media will get the narrative,
36:13 and so on,
36:15 it is not about a party's narrative,
36:17 it is about what is right and what is wrong,
36:19 what is right is right, what is wrong is wrong,
36:21 Islamabad High Court Chief Justice,
36:23 respond to the judges' complaints,
36:25 I think we are going ahead of the bus,
36:27 I think we are going ahead of the bus,
36:29 the letter written by the Chief Justice of Islamabad High Court,
36:31 the letter written by the Chief Justice of Islamabad High Court,
36:33 the letter written in these letters,
36:35 that he said that he has spoken somewhere,
36:37 because this was not present in the Code of Conduct,
36:39 maybe he was also clueless as to where to go with this,
36:41 maybe he was also clueless as to where to go with this,
36:43 but I am sure under his,
36:45 he will answer this himself,
36:47 that what he did about this,
36:49 but I am sure he must have done something,
36:51 I think we should give him a chance,
36:53 we should see these proceedings,
36:55 what will happen,
36:57 we want to see that in this kind of judicial matters,
36:59 there should not be any interference of the executive,
37:01 our judges should not be made
37:03 like this,
37:05 according to the law and according to the merit,
37:07 according to the law and according to the merit,
37:09 not according to the wishes,
37:11 Sir,
37:13 Islamabad High Court should also add to this,
37:15 I request,
37:17 there are two names of personalities,
37:19 three,
37:21 one is Chief Justice of Islamabad High Court,
37:23 second is Chief Justice of Pakistan,
37:25 along with Justice Ajaz-ul-Ahsan,
37:27 and then Senior Punit Judge of Supreme Court,
37:29 who is the Chief Justice today,
37:31 now let us see one by one,
37:33 number one,
37:35 in this letter he said that he has spoken,
37:37 I am sure,
37:39 I am sure,
37:41 Mr. Abbas, he will be asked,
37:43 what did you do, where did you go,
37:45 who did you speak to, did he agree or not,
37:47 see, he is agreeing that he has said this,
37:49 then he said to Chief Justice,
37:51 now he must have also spoken somewhere,
37:53 this will be available in Supreme Court
37:55 through minutes meeting or official correspondence,
37:57 if not available,
37:59 then whoever will be the commission,
38:01 he can do this query from them,
38:03 and number three,
38:05 as far as the current Chief Justice is concerned,
38:07 at that time,
38:09 a judgment came,
38:11 that some judge,
38:13 he is not a judge,
38:15 he is not a judge,
38:17 he cannot take a sue moto,
38:19 later that has been undue,
38:21 but,
38:23 a five members bench judgment came,
38:25 that except Ma, no judge can take a sue moto,
38:27 and at the time of which he was telling,
38:29 that judgment was existing,
38:31 so maybe that is why he did not do anything,
38:33 but all of them will be called and asked,
38:35 I am pretty sure,
38:37 what happened,
38:39 at different times,
38:41 what happened,
38:43 If someone talks to you, and someone talks to you, and someone doesn't talk to you, I'm sure you'll be fine.

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