Tibetan protestors have gathered in Sichuan, China, to request that officials halt the construction of a hydropower dam. Locals claim the project threatens cultural sites that hold historic significance to Tibetan communities.
On this episode of "Zoom In Zoom Out," TaiwanPlus reporter Sally Jensen speaks to Lobsang Yangtso, an environmental researcher for the International Tibet Network. We first zoomed in on the February protests in Dege County, then zoomed out to discuss greater environmental issues faced by the Tibetan plateau.
On this episode of "Zoom In Zoom Out," TaiwanPlus reporter Sally Jensen speaks to Lobsang Yangtso, an environmental researcher for the International Tibet Network. We first zoomed in on the February protests in Dege County, then zoomed out to discuss greater environmental issues faced by the Tibetan plateau.
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00:00 (upbeat music)
00:02 - Welcome to Zoom In, Zoom Out,
00:15 your global look at news from Taiwan.
00:18 I'm Sally Jensen.
00:19 A water crisis, a hydropower dam,
00:23 and an authoritarian government.
00:26 The Tibetan Plateau and the communities that live there
00:29 face a multitude of threats to their existence.
00:33 To talk to us about the intersection between climate change
00:36 and human rights issues facing Tibetans,
00:39 we're joined today by Dr. Lobsang Yangtso.
00:42 Lobsang is an environmental researcher
00:45 at the International Tibet Network.
00:48 Lobsang, welcome to the show.
00:51 - Hi.
00:52 - So there were recent protests in Deghe,
00:55 in Sichuan province against a hydropower dam.
00:59 Can you tell us more about the project and its aims?
01:04 - The Kamtok Dam is supposed to be built
01:07 as a huge reservoir of plus 13 more dams,
01:12 and which can be later used to divert
01:16 the whole Yangtze River to Yellow River.
01:20 And so basically this project is the part
01:24 of China's larger project where they have
01:27 a South-North water diversion project.
01:29 And at the same time, you know,
01:31 the project that we see on Tibet is also a part
01:35 of China's larger goal of creating renewable energy
01:40 or the carbon neutral policies that China has.
01:45 And so thus, even though we see lots of protests
01:48 at the region, but there is a fear among local people
01:53 that China will, you know, continue building these dams
01:57 and then forcefully relocate the Tibetans living
02:00 in that area.
02:01 - So you talk about a fear among the local communities there.
02:06 What kind of, what other impacts would the dam have
02:10 on Tibetans living in this area?
02:12 - It will have, I think, three major impact
02:17 on the local community.
02:19 One, in terms of environment impact,
02:22 and then secondly, on the livelihood impact,
02:25 and thirdly, on the cultural heritage impact.
02:29 So in terms of environment impact,
02:31 big hydropower is not solution for the clean
02:35 or green environment policies.
02:38 And if China continues to build these dams,
02:42 then it will have a negative impact,
02:44 not only on the Tibet, but also on the neighboring places.
02:48 And then it will have a negative impact on ecosystem,
02:52 the fisheries, and the farmers as well.
02:55 And in terms of a livelihood impact,
02:58 because of this dam, the Chinese government,
03:01 they have a policy to forcefully relocate
03:04 the local community from that area.
03:08 And then it's their ancestral land,
03:11 which they have been living on the,
03:14 they gave for thousands of years.
03:16 And so with this dam, it will have a huge, huge impact
03:20 on the livelihood of people.
03:22 And finally, in terms of cultural,
03:24 Deghe is a very, I think, important place in Tibet,
03:29 and it has a historical stories,
03:34 historical narratives attached with that.
03:37 And then the Pongte Monastery has, you know,
03:41 thousands of years of cultural stories,
03:44 and then 13th century murals are found in these areas.
03:49 And then once the dam is built,
03:54 so these six monasteries and two villages
03:57 will submerge under the water,
03:59 and then, you know, it will get destroyed completely,
04:02 which is a huge loss in terms of cultural
04:05 and historical aspect of the place.
04:09 - So it seems the project would have not just tangible,
04:13 but also non-tangible effects on the communities.
04:17 And there were peaceful protests staged
04:20 by these communities to be affected,
04:22 but they were put down by the Chinese government.
04:25 Can you tell us more about what happened?
04:27 - So the first news came on February 14th,
04:32 when a large number of Tibetans are seen
04:36 at the local government office,
04:38 calling the officials to hold the hydroelectric power dam.
04:43 And so we have seen videos of local Tibetans at the office
04:47 and then carrying the Chinese national flag,
04:51 which also indicates that they are not against
04:53 the government or they are not against the CCP.
04:57 But how the officials respond was something
05:01 that we have seen not only in Degye,
05:03 but also in many parts of Tibet's place,
05:07 where they have arrested hundreds of people,
05:10 and then they were treated very badly
05:13 in this detention center,
05:15 and Tibetans were asked to bring their own food
05:18 and food as well.
05:20 So then, after a few days, some of them were released,
05:25 but right now, two of the Tibetan people,
05:28 Sangbo and Tenzin, who are the official leader
05:32 in Pondom Monastery and also local village leader,
05:36 they are still arrested by the Chinese government
05:40 and people are not unsure where they are.
05:44 Their way about is still unknown.
05:47 And on top of that, they have completely shut down
05:52 the whole place.
05:53 Internet is shut down, roads are blocked.
05:56 There are numerous checkpoints, security forces are there.
06:01 And so it's like a huge, the curfew is imposed.
06:05 And so, and from, I think, end of February,
06:10 from February 28, there is no further news
06:15 of what's happening at the village.
06:18 It's a clear example of how colonial power functions
06:22 on the region.
06:24 And so this also raises lots of concern
06:28 from the human rights aspect as well,
06:30 how these officials dealt with the local community.
06:37 - So we've just zoomed in on these recent protests.
06:40 Now I want to zoom out to this wider theme
06:43 of human rights and climate change.
06:47 Even though the project isn't in Tibet, but in Sichuan,
06:51 this area is historically and culturally Tibetan.
06:55 And can you tell us a little bit more
06:57 about the environmental and climate issues
07:01 that the region faces?
07:03 - Sally, before that, I mean, this area
07:06 is very much a part of Tibet.
07:09 Even in 1965, when the Chinese,
07:12 they built the Tibet Autonomous Region,
07:14 and then they divided the whole region
07:18 into Tibet Autonomous Region,
07:19 and then parts of the Tibetan areas are consolidated
07:23 under other Chinese provinces like Qinghai, Sichuan,
07:26 Yunnan, and Anshu province.
07:28 So Jomda is right now under the so-called
07:32 Tibet Autonomous Region,
07:33 and then Dege comes under the Sichuan or the Gansai,
07:38 which is also a Tibetan area.
07:41 So that's also how the Chinese colonial powers function,
07:46 where they renamed and then divide the places.
07:50 And then second, when you're saying that human rights
07:54 or environment expert of the area,
07:58 the whole Tibetan plateau faces lots
08:01 of environment challenges.
08:03 The first one is in terms of the climate change
08:08 and rising temperature.
08:09 It leads to a melting of glaciers really fastly,
08:13 and then grasslands are degrading.
08:15 And because of that, permafrost are melting as well.
08:19 And then on top of that,
08:21 then we have the massive colonial infrastructure development
08:25 such as the damming and mining,
08:27 and then the road constructions, railways,
08:30 which also further deteriorate the whole environment
08:35 or ecosystem of the Tibetan plateau.
08:37 - And this specific environmental problem
08:41 is mostly a global problem caused by burning of fossil fuels
08:46 over consumption and industry.
08:48 But in terms of governance,
08:50 what makes the problem uniquely severe in Tibetan areas?
08:55 - Yes, definitely.
08:58 The climate change is a global problem
09:00 that we see everywhere.
09:02 But how this is unique in Tibet is that in other areas,
09:07 at least to some parts of the world,
09:10 people have a right to participate
09:14 in the whole climate discussion
09:16 or whole climate policymaking.
09:18 Whereas in Tibet, the recent Degas protests
09:22 is a clear example how local Tibetans
09:25 are not part of the whole climate policymaking.
09:29 And on top of that, it's the Beijing government
09:32 who decides what's good for the area
09:35 and what's not good for the area.
09:38 That's one.
09:39 And the second why this is unique is that
09:42 Tibet is also called the water tower of Asia
09:45 where almost 1.3 Asian populations are dependent
09:50 on the water that flows from Tibet.
09:52 The whole Tibetan temperature rise
09:54 is almost like two to three times faster
09:57 than the rest of the world.
09:59 So which means that it will have a water crisis
10:02 and which will not only impact the Tibetan area,
10:05 but also the downstream nations
10:08 and South and South East Asian countries as well.
10:12 And then finally, I would like to say that
10:14 why it's unique is that right now,
10:17 we are under colonial occupation.
10:19 And on top of that, there is no human rights protections.
10:23 People inside Tibet are arrested
10:26 just for raising their concern
10:28 in terms of environment protection
10:30 or the environment issues.
10:32 And so there are, you know,
10:35 hundreds of Tibetans are still in jail
10:37 because they have raised their concern
10:40 or they have worked for the protection
10:42 of the whole Tibetan plateau.
10:44 So these are the major issues that we see
10:47 and which is very much concerning,
10:50 not only for the Tibetans,
10:51 but I feel that it should be concerning
10:53 for the downstream nations as well.
10:56 - And what do you think of the way
10:58 that international media,
11:00 international actors view the situation?
11:03 I mean, there has been concern about Tibet in the past,
11:06 but mostly for other reasons.
11:09 What would you say is the situation now internationally?
11:14 - Right now, because of the whole international geopolitics,
11:18 Tibet has not gained much attention.
11:22 So there are various countries who raise their concern
11:26 in terms of climate change
11:28 or forced relocation of Tibetan nomads
11:31 or the human rights situation at the global level.
11:34 But I also want to say that there are many countries
11:37 who would prefer to remain silent
11:40 instead of raising concerns over there.
11:43 So I would like to say to the international media
11:47 or international communities that first,
11:50 I think they should be urgently seek information
11:55 what is actually happening in Deghe.
11:57 And you have your own offices or embassies in Beijing.
12:02 So you should do your field visit and see by yourself.
12:07 And then at the same time, after doing that,
12:10 you should urgently issue public statements
12:13 concerning these areas and also the real situation
12:17 in Deghe as well.
12:20 - We're seeing a global movement of climate activists
12:25 who are pushing their governments to do more.
12:28 And obviously this is not really possible in China
12:32 as it is right now.
12:33 Is there anything that the global climate movement
12:36 can do more to support Tibetans?
12:39 - So first I would like to say in terms of environment
12:42 is that recognize the ecological significance
12:46 of the whole Tibetan plateau.
12:48 And then also address the colonial behavior of China
12:53 in Tibet as well.
12:55 Tibet is not a part of the UN Climate Change Conference
12:59 because there is no special seat for colonized people.
13:03 I think the global climate movement,
13:06 one thing that they really should do
13:08 is include local Tibetans
13:10 in the whole global climate discussion.
13:12 That's what I feel is really, really necessary.
13:17 And then talk about Tibet
13:19 and there are Tibetan communities all over the world.
13:23 And whenever there is some discussion,
13:26 some protests happening,
13:27 include those Tibetans who are based in your area
13:32 and make them part and make them feel
13:34 that they are part of the whole global climate movement
13:38 is really, really important right now.
13:41 - Lobzang, thank you so much for sharing your insights
13:44 with us on the program today.
13:46 - Thank you.
13:47 Thank you Sally for having me.
13:49 - This has been Zoom In Zoom Out.
13:52 You can find more stories from Taiwan Plus News
13:54 by following our social media.
13:57 Thanks for watching.
13:57 We'll see you next time.
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