Otegha Uwagba on how Instagram fuels self-doubt more than a catwalk
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00:00 (upbeat music)
00:02 - Hello and welcome to Love Lives,
00:07 a podcast from The Independent
00:08 where I, Olivia Petter, chat to different guests
00:11 about the different loves of their lives.
00:13 Today I am delighted to be joined by journalist,
00:17 broadcaster, and best-selling author, Otago Wagba.
00:20 - Thank you for having me.
00:20 (laughing)
00:21 Welcome to you.
00:22 - Thank you for welcoming me.
00:23 - Yes, to your own podcast.
00:24 (laughing)
00:25 - No one's ever welcomed me to my own podcast before.
00:27 It's very nice.
00:28 - You've had such an incredibly impressive
00:30 career trajectory and you started at a really young age.
00:34 I want to ask you a bit about writing specifically
00:38 and what drew you to it
00:38 because I know that you worked in advertising
00:40 for a bit initially.
00:41 So did you always want to be a writer
00:43 and what was it that drew you to advertising
00:46 kind of temporarily in between?
00:48 - I've always enjoyed, you know, writing
00:51 and, or certainly more so than a lot of other people.
00:55 I know, and I don't think I really realized it was unusual
00:57 until I remember once, like a couple of years back
01:00 when a friend had to write something up for work
01:01 and she was like, "Oh my God, I hate writing."
01:03 And I was like, "Oh, okay."
01:05 I just assumed that everyone felt like that.
01:08 So as a kid and like a teenager, I would do sort of,
01:12 I mean, I wrote like some terribly cringey poems
01:15 but I also would write like short stories
01:17 and did a lot of like student journalism,
01:19 like uni and stuff.
01:20 But I don't think it occurred to me really.
01:25 I thought I'd like one day like to write a novel
01:27 but it didn't occur to me
01:28 that like I could have a career as a writer.
01:31 And so when I graduated in 2011, so into a recession,
01:36 I was about, I mean, all I know is recessions
01:40 but you know, that was 2011, quite a bad one.
01:43 I was like, okay, well I need to get a proper solid job,
01:48 something quite corporate.
01:49 That was kind of what everyone around me seemed to be doing.
01:52 I kind of almost discovered that advertising jobs exist
01:56 and then I made it my mission to get an ad agency job.
02:00 - And you had quite an interesting experience
02:01 in the ad agency world.
02:03 - That's a very tactful way of saying I hated it.
02:06 So yeah, I worked in advertising for about five years,
02:09 always agency side.
02:11 I worked at some pretty major ad agencies
02:14 and I just never really found my stride.
02:19 Like I didn't really understand like the culture
02:21 of ad agencies and what I did understand of it,
02:24 I didn't like it.
02:25 It was also, I mean, this is pre-Me Too,
02:27 pre-Black Lives Matter, so we're talking 2012 kind of onwards
02:31 and so they were just very toxic, you know,
02:34 misogynistic, gendered, racist environments
02:37 which I don't know how different it is now.
02:39 I'm sure they've improved and I've heard they've improved.
02:41 I think there are still some dynamics in that industry
02:43 that, you know, kind of remain the same.
02:45 - And was that experience part of what led you
02:47 to writing the first book, "Little Black Book"
02:49 which you self-published?
02:51 - So I, so my last job was sort of the worst one.
02:56 I worked at a media company that I think is now bankrupt.
03:00 And yeah, as so many are.
03:03 And I sort of started trying to kind of find my way
03:07 into journalism, like, you know, begging for meetings
03:10 with editors and trying to pitch stuff.
03:13 So I decided to like write this, I guess, handbook
03:18 full of queer advice, which is a fairly precocious thing
03:20 to do at the age of 25.
03:22 But I think it was very much geared towards people
03:26 at my level and below and based on, a lot of it
03:29 is based on mistakes I'd made.
03:30 It wasn't like, oh, this is how I did it.
03:32 It was like, this is what I did wrong.
03:34 And now you can learn from that mistake.
03:36 But also for the fact that I think I had gone quite far
03:39 for my age within advertising anyway, and I'd learned a lot.
03:44 And so I put just like all the stuff that I knew
03:48 into that book and, you know, self-funded the print run
03:52 of like 200 copies.
03:54 Like I was like running back and forth on my lunch break
03:56 from this freelance job to like the printers,
03:59 'cause it was all in Shoreditch.
04:00 And then sort of miraculously, I do think,
04:05 when I launched it, this book sold out in like two days,
04:10 like 200 copies in two days.
04:12 - So you've been in the industry for a while.
04:13 Since then, you've done a few more books.
04:16 You've done a few more bits of writing and journalism.
04:19 How has your view of writing as a career
04:22 and all that encompasses changed
04:25 since you first entered this kind of sector?
04:28 - I think when I entered it, I was very much thinking,
04:33 I'm gonna do journalism forever.
04:35 And I mean, to be honest,
04:37 I didn't think I was gonna write a second
04:40 or even a third book.
04:42 I was like, oh, I'm lucky to have gotten this one book deal
04:44 and that's just a cool thing.
04:45 I'm gonna use it to kind of leverage other opportunities.
04:49 It was quite a surprise to me that I had an idea
04:50 for another book and another book.
04:52 And it was probably only kind of midway
04:54 through writing the second one,
04:56 which actually came out third,
04:59 but it was midway through that.
04:59 And I was like, okay, maybe I will be doing books
05:02 as a thing in the future, like sort of on an ongoing basis.
05:06 But I think more recently,
05:11 I mean, I've been thinking about it
05:12 for the past few years,
05:13 but I've only really started making
05:15 sort of more concerted efforts to transition into it,
05:18 like TV writing and fiction writing.
05:22 I realized a couple of years ago,
05:24 I'm somebody that gets bored quite easily.
05:26 And I feel increasingly like I've kind of squeezed out
05:33 as much as I want personally
05:35 from kind of more nonfiction writing
05:37 and nonfiction books and journalism.
05:40 And so I'm sort of transitioning.
05:43 It's not that I'm not gonna do it at all.
05:45 In fact, actually, I have just filed
05:48 like a couple of pieces all this month,
05:50 which is more than I've written in years, actually.
05:54 So when I find a topic really interesting,
05:55 I also wanna write about it.
05:56 And I feel fortunate that I kind of have
05:58 good relationships with editors
05:59 and I can just kind of pitch stuff.
06:01 But I think you just need to kind of keep evolving
06:04 and changing, keep challenging yourself.
06:05 And I'm working on a novel at the moment
06:08 and it started out as a nonfiction idea years ago,
06:10 like literally five years ago.
06:12 And I think when it came to me actually having space
06:15 and time to explore it, I was like,
06:17 I don't wanna just do the same process
06:18 as what I've just done,
06:19 which was researching a topic,
06:21 writing all my opinions on it,
06:22 which I was like, I wanna try a different way
06:26 of saying what I wanna say.
06:27 And that's how it became a novel.
06:29 - It's really fun, isn't it?
06:30 I mean, like I'm doing the same,
06:32 like trying to transition from kind of nonfiction
06:34 into the fictional space.
06:36 And it's such a different way of thinking
06:39 and conveying your thoughts and conveying your opinions.
06:43 And I feel like, I don't know if you feel this way,
06:46 but to me, it feels like some of the things
06:49 that I have wanted to express in nonfiction,
06:52 I actually think can only really be expressed
06:54 in a fictional space because of the nuance required
06:57 to convey the complexity of what it is I'm trying to say.
06:59 - I feel like it just gives me a bit more freedom.
07:03 'Cause sometimes I have theories,
07:05 but I don't necessarily have data to back them up.
07:08 And I think I'm somebody who, in my nonfiction,
07:12 I am like very rigorous about having things
07:15 kind of backed up and substantiated.
07:17 And there's some topics and themes where I'm like,
07:20 I'm just going with vibes, you know?
07:22 So that is, yeah, I mean, it's a steep learning curve.
07:27 I think I'm very confident in my abilities
07:29 as a writer nonfiction wise.
07:31 And this is something that I need to like master
07:36 in terms of the fiction space, I need to get better at.
07:39 Or that's how I feel about it, certainly.
07:41 But that's kind of why I'm pursuing it.
07:44 - Yeah.
07:44 - It's very much with a view to wanting to challenge myself
07:48 and wanting to kind of flex different muscles
07:51 and kind of build out my remit,
07:55 seems like an overly formal word,
07:57 but like portfolio as a writer
07:59 and be able to do lots of different types of writing
08:01 that fundamentally is just the same thing,
08:03 which is writing and communicating to people.
08:06 - What's your relationship like with social media now?
08:08 So you've got a pretty significant following
08:10 on Twitter/X, I can't bear to call it X,
08:12 Twitter/X and Instagram.
08:15 - When I'm on it, I've been,
08:16 I mean, I deactivated my Twitter account
08:19 at the end of last year.
08:20 - Did you?
08:20 - I then reactivated it
08:21 'cause I think I needed someone to contact details
08:23 and haven't gotten around to it.
08:25 But I am very much transitioning off Twitter
08:28 because pretty much, I mean, are you still on it?
08:31 Like, I feel like everyone's left.
08:33 Yeah, everyone's left.
08:34 Like lots of people who I used to enjoy
08:37 kind of seeing their opinions
08:38 or communicating with on there have like fully left.
08:42 So it's not as fun anymore.
08:43 And I think this kind of happened kind of 2021 onwards
08:48 when it just got so febrile after or during the pandemic.
08:51 And I like a real Twitter addict,
08:54 both in terms of tweeting and in terms of being on it.
08:58 And I think it was a mixture of like,
08:59 this isn't fun anymore.
09:00 And also this is real time stuff
09:01 and I get absolutely nothing out of it
09:04 beyond just those hours of my life
09:06 I'm never gonna get back.
09:07 So I think it's a shame that it has become what it has.
09:12 I mean, yeah, the reason I'm kind of easing off it
09:15 is just because the experience of being on there
09:17 isn't the same.
09:18 If everybody was still on it
09:19 and if Elon Musk hadn't bought it and ruined it,
09:21 I'd still be, I'd probably be on Twitter right now.
09:24 You know?
09:24 So I think for me, my relationship with social media
09:29 is just that it's a big time suck.
09:32 And for instance, when I'm like really seriously on deadlines
09:35 like for books and stuff,
09:37 I've been known to give my password to friends,
09:39 to lock me out.
09:41 - Yeah, for Instagram?
09:43 - For Twitter.
09:44 I'm not that addicted to Instagram.
09:46 - Really? - Yeah.
09:47 It was Twitter.
09:48 - How are you not that addicted to Instagram?
09:50 I would love to, 'cause I am pretty addicted to Instagram.
09:53 How do you manage that?
09:54 - I just don't find it as interesting as Twitter
09:56 'cause I'm not finding it as much new information.
09:59 Obviously, I think now people are moving on to Instagram
10:03 to kind of communicate the same things
10:04 they would have on Twitter.
10:06 But I think for the longest time,
10:09 and maybe it's down to who and what I follow,
10:12 but it's much more about visual inspiration there,
10:16 which is nice, but can, you know,
10:19 I'm not in the mood for that all the time.
10:21 - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
10:22 - So yeah, I just don't find it as like sticky,
10:24 as like addictive as Twitter,
10:25 which really kind of activates my lizard brain
10:27 and I wanna be on it all the time.
10:29 - Oh God, I'm so jealous.
10:30 I feel like Instagram activates my lizard brain
10:32 and I can't, I have to delete it from my phone
10:35 so that I don't look at it
10:36 when I'm trying to like write or something.
10:38 And then I end up going back to my computer
10:40 'cause I'm so addicted.
10:41 And I'm like, what are you doing?
10:42 You're spending all this time looking at inane stuff
10:44 from people that you don't even really care about.
10:46 It's just, and then I think the most wild thing to me
10:49 is checking who's seen your stories.
10:51 - Yeah.
10:52 - Who gives a shit?
10:53 - Or watching your own stories back.
10:55 - Oh yeah. - The rarity is that.
10:55 - You sometimes see people doing that on the tube
10:57 and you're like, oh, you know. - I really?
10:59 - Yeah, I've seen people like looking
11:00 at their own profiles before.
11:01 - Well, people have probably seen me doing that.
11:03 - Yeah, they've probably seen me do it too.
11:04 - The profile I look at the most on Instagram
11:07 is probably my own.
11:08 - But then like, why do we do that?
11:10 What are we looking for?
11:11 - I think when I do that
11:13 and I think probably when most people do that,
11:15 you are taking a moment to kind of evaluate
11:18 how you appear to the outside world.
11:20 So you're like, oh, when somebody lands on my page,
11:22 how do I come across? - What do they see?
11:23 - What do they see?
11:24 What do they think of me?
11:25 And I think we're constantly checking in with that
11:27 or at least that's I think how I feel when I'm doing it.
11:31 But it's, I mean, it panders to our absolute worst impulses,
11:35 all of social media.
11:37 And I long for the day where I fully divest
11:41 from it altogether.
11:42 I think that for me is the ultimate goal,
11:43 but I'm still a way away from doing that.
11:45 - Same.
11:46 You went to Oxford.
11:48 I have to ask you about salt burn
11:50 'cause I've seen you posting. - Do you, let's do it.
11:52 - 'Cause I just love the way you think
11:54 and I love your brain
11:55 so I'm just fascinated to know what you think of the film.
11:58 'Cause I know you didn't like it.
12:00 - I thought it was the worst movie I've ever seen.
12:02 And that sounds like hyperbole,
12:05 but I can't think of another movie I've seen
12:09 that's worse than salt burn.
12:10 - Okay, what riles you up about it?
12:12 What did you not like about it?
12:14 - It was confusing.
12:15 It made no sense whatsoever to the point where,
12:18 I mean, I did, I went to watch it in the cinema
12:20 and I did sort of doze off for large,
12:25 not large chunks, but I was kind of in and out
12:27 for a lot of the first two thirds, I would say.
12:31 Well, I just wasn't gripped by it.
12:32 I was very sleepy,
12:33 which I don't think is a good sign for a movie.
12:36 But I do think I was following along
12:39 and there were just significant plot holes.
12:42 The characterization makes no sense.
12:44 The motivation makes no sense.
12:46 You know, a friend and I were talking about it
12:49 and described it as it's as though,
12:52 you know, the producers of that movie
12:53 or the makers of that movie kind of envisioned this scene
12:57 that is Barry Keoghan dancing around
13:00 to murder on dance floor in a castle.
13:02 And I thought, that's gonna be so cool.
13:05 Let's reverse engineer an entire movie
13:09 to allow that scene to happen.
13:10 But then it doesn't, it's so tonally at odds.
13:13 Like I quite enjoyed that scene, you know,
13:16 as I think a lot of women did.
13:19 But it's not just because,
13:21 but also it's tonally at odds with the rest of the movie.
13:25 So I'm like, the movie hadn't earned that payoff.
13:28 It just was confusing.
13:31 The responses to everything that happened in the movie
13:34 from the characters made no sense to me.
13:36 I mean, I think I can talk about it openly
13:38 'cause it's been out for a while now.
13:40 But for instance, when Jacob Lordi's character, Felix,
13:43 drives Oliver Quick, the so-called scholarship boy,
13:48 to six hours wherever to his parents' home,
13:52 and it turns out that he has been lying
13:54 about his background.
13:55 That for me is friendship done.
13:56 That's friendship over.
13:57 That person is not coming back into my car,
13:59 into my life, into my house.
14:00 I'm not throwing a party for them.
14:01 I'm like, you're a freak.
14:03 You've been lying.
14:04 - And he lied about his, like such big lies.
14:06 - Such big lies.
14:08 - His mother died?
14:09 What's that?
14:10 - Fucking weird lies.
14:11 Can I swear on this podcast?
14:12 Yeah, weird fucking lies.
14:14 That's not somebody that I'd be friends with.
14:15 - Sociopathic lies.
14:16 - Sociopathic lies, right?
14:18 And also the character of Oliver
14:21 wasn't in any way charming or compelling enough
14:23 for me to believe that all of these people
14:25 are falling under his spell,
14:27 like from Felix to like the mother.
14:29 I thought Rosamund Pike played that character quite well.
14:34 I really liked what we saw of Carrie Mulligan,
14:35 but then she dies off screen.
14:37 So that was a great little cameo.
14:40 I was like, it's just not plausible.
14:42 But funnily enough, I think it was well acted.
14:45 I thought all the actors in it were really great.
14:47 They did well with material they were given,
14:49 but it just made no sense.
14:52 And then the kind of twist revealed
14:55 towards the end of the movie that it's like,
14:57 he planned it all along.
14:58 He's a crazy.
14:59 And I was like, well, yeah,
15:00 that's kind of what I've assumed.
15:01 - Yeah, from the beginning.
15:02 - The setup right from the start, from the opening scene,
15:05 you're like, this guy has a secret
15:07 and is a bit of a weirdo.
15:08 - Oh yeah, if you've seen "Talented Mr. Ripley"
15:09 or read the book, you kind of know where it's going.
15:11 - So I was like, this isn't a twist that he like,
15:14 you know, engineered all these deaths and whatever.
15:16 I'm like, well, that's what,
15:18 I was like, oh, were we not supposed to think
15:20 that he had killed Felix?
15:22 Because that's exactly what I thought happened
15:25 as soon as I figured out that Felix was dead.
15:27 Because even that was confusing.
15:28 I had to lean over to my friend and say, is he dead?
15:31 - Before we move on to talk about "The Loves of Your Life",
15:33 can you share with us what you are working on
15:35 at the moment, writing-wise?
15:36 - So at the moment, I've written a couple of features,
15:39 which are gonna be dropping, I think, in the next,
15:40 certainly by the time this is aired.
15:44 I interviewed Issa Rae for a cover,
15:47 which is again, coming out very soon.
15:49 Again, she's somebody that I'm just obsessed with.
15:51 I love her work.
15:52 And I just think she's so smart, so funny,
15:56 and just everything she's written.
15:58 So I was really excited about that.
16:00 And I interviewed Fran Lebowitz about fashion.
16:04 - Awesome.
16:05 - Which was a really, really fun conversation.
16:07 So I called her up, you know,
16:10 down that crackly old line in New York.
16:12 And then, yeah, we had a good old chat about fashion.
16:15 And then just lots of other stuff as well,
16:17 about politics and the election.
16:18 And yeah, she's great fun to chat to.
16:21 (upbeat music)
16:23 - Well, that leads us in perfectly
16:31 to the first "Love of Your Life", which you have chosen,
16:33 which is fashion and clothes.
16:35 As I mentioned in the intro,
16:36 you are one of my favorite dressers
16:39 that I follow on Instagram, @cffashionweek.
16:42 So have you always loved fashion?
16:43 Have you always loved clothes?
16:44 How would you describe your style and your relationship?
16:48 - Yeah, I've always loved clothes.
16:49 I've always loved clothes.
16:50 It's always been really important to me what I'm wearing.
16:53 I remember, I can literally remember,
16:57 I think I must've been about seven years old
16:59 and it was own clothes day at school.
17:02 And I found that out, I don't know,
17:05 I found it out like maybe the night before
17:07 or the afternoon before.
17:09 And I told my mom and I have no idea.
17:10 And I was like, I don't have anything to wear,
17:13 which is an absurd thing for seven year olds.
17:15 I don't know how she found the time
17:18 because I literally can't remember us,
17:20 like, you know, it's like she picked me up from school
17:22 and then, but somehow she magicked up
17:24 this like 101 Dalmatians matching top and leg.
17:28 And it's just like, it was the coolest.
17:30 You know, I felt the way I walked into school the next day,
17:33 like I have got it.
17:35 But you know, so she has always,
17:38 so her father was a tailor.
17:42 And so he used to make like clothes
17:44 and like custom clothes for like lots of people.
17:47 This is in Cameroon.
17:48 And so she grew up, she knows how to sew really well.
17:50 She grew up making a lot of her own clothes,
17:52 which to be fair is also just what generally happened
17:55 back in like the seventies.
17:56 Like you have like a pattern
17:57 and then you take it to a tailor and that sort of thing.
18:00 So she's really, really into style and fashion.
18:02 I think I've definitely inherited that love from her
18:05 and also that belief that what you wear communicates
18:09 something about you to the outside world
18:11 and that it's a really useful and powerful tool
18:14 and often like a shorthand,
18:16 but also it's just something to be enjoyed
18:18 and to have fun with.
18:19 And so, yeah, I've always loved fashion.
18:22 It's like my biggest expenditure probably.
18:26 - Yeah, I mean, mine too.
18:28 I'm interested then, was there never a part of you
18:30 as a kid that wanted to work in fashion
18:33 or be a fashion writer specifically and just do that?
18:36 - No, that's so interesting.
18:39 No, do you know what?
18:40 When I was younger, I remember I used to have,
18:43 I used to sketch, I have this like silhouette
18:46 of like a women's figure
18:47 and I used to sketch different clothes.
18:48 I wish I'd kept them, not because I think they're any good,
18:50 but just because I'd love to see what they look like now.
18:53 And I would trace it out and sketch
18:55 and me and my sister used to do that.
18:56 So I think at that age, but this is like 10
18:58 or like single digits thinking,
19:00 oh my God, I'm gonna be a fashion designer when I grow up.
19:03 But I think by the time I kind of hit my teenage years
19:06 and onwards, I was like, I'm probably gonna do something
19:11 more, I guess, conventional or more serious or,
19:15 and also it's just, yeah, a career in fashion.
19:18 And then also I think by the time I graduated,
19:21 when I graduated, the fashion industry was kind of
19:26 at its worst in terms of this just unpaid internships
19:28 and people being treated like shit.
19:30 So it didn't really appeal to me like working in it.
19:33 - Yeah.
19:34 - So I've always kind of been,
19:36 I think I do more fashion work now,
19:39 almost just kind of through some of my journalism
19:41 and I kind of end up falling in with, I guess,
19:43 fashion brands.
19:45 So I kind of can explore, I always refer to myself
19:47 as fashion industry adjacent or like I'm a fashion hobbyist.
19:51 So it's something that I kind of sometimes kind of,
19:54 you know, maneuver into my work,
19:57 but for the most part, it's just something
19:58 that I just enjoy and if certain opportunities
20:01 or invitations open to me, then I'm happy to take them up.
20:04 - And as someone who goes to the shows
20:05 and goes to fashion week, what do you make
20:08 of that kind of whole experience
20:10 in this kind of modern iteration now?
20:12 I mean, I'm asking you that because I'm someone
20:15 who has gone to the shows for years as well for work.
20:17 And I remember the first time I went to a fashion show,
20:22 I was so shocked by how thin the models were.
20:25 And I remember being so struck by that.
20:28 And thing that I think shocks me now more
20:30 is how desensitized I am to that.
20:32 - I think I'm pretty desensitized to it.
20:34 - And that's what kind of concerns me.
20:36 - I've only once, I'm trying to remember,
20:40 I think it was a couple of seasons ago
20:42 where I remember saying to an editor outside a show,
20:44 I was like, all the clothes I've seen this season
20:49 just seem to accentuate skinniness.
20:52 It was that kind of YTK trend.
20:55 And I was just like, it makes me feel uncomfortable.
20:58 It makes like, that I think was a couple of years ago now,
21:01 maybe sort of 18 months ago.
21:03 And that was a time where I felt like,
21:04 my God, they're really,
21:06 I'm sure the models have probably always been that skinny,
21:08 but it was like, wow, they're really showing it off
21:11 in terms of the designers and the clothes they're making.
21:14 And yeah, I mean, I think like anyone else,
21:16 I think without wanting to kind of criticize
21:18 an individual body type, I think it's just quite sad.
21:23 And I think the older I get and the funnier,
21:28 kind of less I care, how do I frame this?
21:31 'Cause I think I'm quite aware that I'm somebody who's,
21:33 I guess, because of the straight size, so I'm like slim,
21:36 but the less kind of stock I hold in being slim or skinny,
21:43 the more disturbed I am by the fashion industry's
21:48 relentless focus on that.
21:50 So I think probably when I was younger, in my teens and 20s,
21:54 it was more a point of pride to me
21:55 that my body is the size that it is.
21:57 And now, A, it's changing because that's what happens.
22:00 You get older, especially as a woman,
22:02 the hormones hit like turn 30 and it's like,
22:05 oh, my body is really changing.
22:07 I think essentially what I'm trying to say is that was
22:09 the past few years are the first time I've ever really
22:11 experienced any kind of major body insecurity
22:14 of my body changing.
22:16 And it's made me realize how toxic the messages
22:19 and narratives we get are as women.
22:22 - Yeah, I think that's what's interesting about it,
22:23 is that you go to the shows and it's impossible not to
22:28 project your own feelings about the way you look
22:31 in your body when you are constantly watching
22:34 these teeny tiny models.
22:36 - Or even just scrolling through Instagram.
22:37 I think I get it more.
22:39 I think because models on a catwalk to me are so far away
22:43 from anything that to me that resembles real life.
22:45 I don't actually, that isn't necessarily what makes me
22:49 question my own body.
22:50 It's more like what you see on Instagram
22:51 and it's like ordinary people.
22:54 I'm like, oh, well, you know, that's like,
22:57 look at her thighs, look at her abs, whatever.
22:59 Like I want that.
23:00 I'm like, what do I need to do to get that?
23:01 And fundamentally I've also realized
23:03 I just can't be bothered.
23:04 Like that is the answer.
23:06 But I think once I accepted that
23:07 and I was, I became more comfortable.
23:10 - I wanna ask you about your second love,
23:12 which is voice notes.
23:14 So tell me what it is you like about voice notes
23:16 and how long in your mind is the perfect voice note?
23:21 'Cause there's a lot of debate around how long.
23:22 - I'd say about 90 seconds.
23:24 - Really?
23:25 - Yeah.
23:26 And in that 90 seconds, it's you delivering
23:28 like a nice juicy bit of gossip, like a nice nugget.
23:32 Like whether receiving or sending.
23:33 I would say, because then 90 seconds
23:36 or just telling any kind of story,
23:38 that means you haven't given enough detail
23:40 that the recipient doesn't then have like sort of questions,
23:43 follow up questions.
23:44 So then it becomes like a nice kind of back and forth.
23:47 And I find that quite fun, but any shorter than that,
23:50 I think you don't really, as the listener,
23:52 you can't really get stuck in.
23:54 And longer than that, sometimes,
23:56 like, oh, I don't have time to listen to this now.
23:57 You've always got 90 seconds,
23:59 but you might not have 10 minutes, say.
24:01 And I have been known to leave 10.
24:02 I think the longest voice note I've received
24:04 is probably about 17 minutes.
24:05 - 17 minutes?
24:07 That's a podcast.
24:08 - Yeah, that's what we call them, like friends.
24:10 I mean, I think that was also during the pandemic as well.
24:12 - Yeah, okay, fine.
24:14 - But we'd be like, oh, podcast.
24:15 And I would literally like sit down,
24:17 like make a bit of, I'll save this for like half an hour
24:19 for when I make a cup of tea
24:20 and then just sit down and listen to it.
24:22 - How do you even respond to something like that though?
24:23 'Cause when I get friends that send me voice notes-
24:25 - Sometimes I make notes.
24:26 - Yeah, yeah, I make notes.
24:27 I have to make notes.
24:27 - Yeah, sometimes I make notes.
24:28 - So I know what to respond to.
24:30 - Yeah.
24:30 And I think the thing is that they allow you,
24:35 it's like, you don't necessarily both have to be free
24:37 for a phone call at the same time,
24:38 which I think is obviously increasingly harder to do
24:40 for various reasons.
24:43 And so I do like that aspect of flexibility
24:45 and it's like a whole conversation and story
24:46 can kind of go back and forth.
24:48 And they're just quite a funny,
24:50 but also I find them quite a nice way
24:52 of fostering kind of intimacy.
24:54 I think whether it was with friends or like romantically,
24:56 I think moving, to be honest,
24:58 I move things to voice note very quickly,
25:01 like even with people I don't know,
25:02 'cause also I find it quite efficient.
25:03 So I might be messaging somebody on Instagram
25:06 about something, maybe even just kind of quite worky.
25:10 And if it's someone that I kind of know
25:11 and I'm friendly with, I'm be like,
25:12 "Hey, I hope you don't mind a voice note,
25:13 but here are the answers."
25:15 That sort of thing, because it's just quicker.
25:17 So they are also efficient for me,
25:19 but yeah, I just have a good voice note.
25:21 - Yeah, and I know what you mean.
25:22 There is an intimacy about a voice note
25:24 that I think is sometimes even more intimate
25:26 than a phone call, because you have time to listen
25:29 to that person's voice alone
25:31 and really take in what they're saying
25:33 and think about how you're gonna respond
25:35 as opposed to kind of responding off the cuff on the phone.
25:37 And I think when you are sharing voice notes
25:39 with someone you've just started dating,
25:41 it can be quite an exciting way to get to know someone
25:43 and get to know the tenor of their voice
25:45 and how they think.
25:46 - Yeah, definitely.
25:47 Also, I feel like if somebody's voice isn't good,
25:50 I'm like, "Oh, I don't think this is gonna go anywhere."
25:53 - Yeah, I know.
25:55 I like that.
25:56 I mean, I don't like voice notes on Hinge
25:58 or on dating apps, 'cause I feel like
25:59 they're just generic voice notes.
26:00 They're not voice notes that are not sent to me.
26:03 - So I'm not on the app, so I didn't know you can--
26:05 - You can do that now.
26:06 - I sound like such an old fuddy-duddy.
26:09 So what people have--
26:10 People have voice messages on their profile,
26:13 but they're quite weird.
26:15 It will be someone describing their typical Sunday
26:17 or someone describing a joke.
26:19 And I don't know, there's something really generic
26:21 and kind of gross about that,
26:22 'cause it's just a rehashed thing
26:24 that loads of people are obviously listening to.
26:25 Whereas I think when you start talking to someone,
26:28 sending a voice note quite early on
26:30 can seem like quite a jarring thing.
26:31 - But I think it's also a good test for men.
26:35 It's like, "Well, how confident are you?"
26:37 Or, "How intimidated by this are you?"
26:40 And I think I have used that as a way of weeding out
26:42 where it's like, "Okay, can you just,
26:45 "I'll be like, 'Tell me a story.'
26:46 "Or, 'Tell me something interesting.'"
26:47 Like, whatever. - Yeah, I agree.
26:49 - And if somebody can kind of be like, "Yeah, hey."
26:52 It kind of makes me think,
26:53 "Okay, this is somebody who's kind of comfortable
26:55 "in themselves."
26:55 But if somebody's like, "I'm in an army."
26:56 And be like, "Oh my God, I don't know what to say."
26:58 I find that such a turn off.
26:59 I'm just like, "Think of something."
27:01 - Don't go on the apps, they're rubbish.
27:02 I hate that. (laughs)
27:04 Good decision.
27:05 Okay, third love is having written as opposed to writing.
27:09 Totally understand what you mean by that.
27:11 But to those of us who are not writers
27:13 and might be listening,
27:14 explain why it is that you prefer the act of having written
27:18 as opposed to actually writing.
27:19 - Yeah, so obviously, overall, I like writing
27:23 because I have made it my career
27:25 and worked very hard to do so.
27:28 It's not an easy career to make work.
27:30 So I do obviously love writing.
27:32 But I see whenever I'm working on anything,
27:34 whether it's short form, long form,
27:38 it's like a mountain and that uphill bit of it,
27:42 or let's say getting the first draft down
27:45 is like pushing a boulder uphill sometimes.
27:48 Not all the time, actually,
27:50 but sometimes it can really feel like that.
27:53 And it's when that first draft is there
27:57 and I'm going through editing, tweaking, changing things,
28:00 that's when it feels like I'm on a bicycle sailing downhill.
28:03 So I've just switched analogies there,
28:04 but we're gonna go with it. (laughs)
28:07 And that kind of feels fun and interesting.
28:09 And that's the bit I like.
28:10 But sometimes, I think basically
28:12 what I don't like is first drafts.
28:14 Those are just brutal.
28:17 But then every draft after that
28:18 is kind of fun and interesting.
28:20 And you have the framework of something to tweak.
28:24 But sometimes getting things down
28:27 from your head onto paper
28:28 feels like pulling nails.
28:34 So that's why I prefer having written.
28:37 And obviously the best bit is when you're just
28:39 moving a few full stops around
28:40 and it's just like, "Oh!"
28:41 And you're happy with what you've written
28:44 and it feels complete and that's such a satisfying feeling
28:46 because then it's just about,
28:47 okay, pushing this out in whatever form,
28:50 whether it was a book or an article,
28:51 and engaging with the responses to it.
28:54 And that is obviously if you feel satisfied
28:56 with what you've written.
28:58 So that, I think, is kind of the sweet spot.
29:01 But yeah, the first draft for me is always horrible.
29:06 - But I find it really reassuring
29:07 because so many writers I admire,
29:09 yourself included, feel that way.
29:11 So I was listening to Greta Gerwig talking about
29:13 when she first starts writing a script for something
29:15 and she's like, "You just hate it."
29:17 And you think, "Why am I doing this?
29:19 "You can't write.
29:20 "You're terrible.
29:21 "This is gonna be awful.
29:22 "They're gonna hate you.
29:23 "What are you doing?"
29:23 And it's like, I think it's because,
29:25 I don't know if you write this way,
29:26 but for me, it's like I work out what it is
29:28 I'm trying to say as I'm saying it.
29:29 So initially, for me, the first idea
29:32 that comes down on the page is probably quite basic
29:35 and probably quite simple.
29:36 - Oh, yes, so basic.
29:37 And I'm like, if somebody read,
29:39 like, you know, sometimes somebody,
29:41 like an editor or a producer,
29:43 they'll go, "Oh, just send me the trash draft."
29:44 I'm like, "I can't send you this
29:45 "because you will start to question
29:48 "the web of lies I've built my entire career on
29:52 "because the trash vomit draft is so bad."
29:56 And so, 'cause I think some people,
30:00 their kind of first pass is more polished,
30:03 but mine isn't.
30:04 It's like the sentence stops halfway there
30:06 and I use really basic words
30:08 and then I kind of go over it and go over it.
30:10 So that's another thing.
30:12 I don't share early drafts of my work with anyone
30:15 because I'm like, "This is just rubbish."
30:16 And I'd feel embarrassed to share this.
30:19 So yeah, that phase of writing is difficult.
30:22 - It's torture.
30:23 - You just have to push through and then it gets so good.
30:26 - Are there certain subjects that you prefer writing about
30:30 than others and certain subjects
30:31 that you hate writing about?
30:33 - Ooh, that's a good question.
30:35 I think I just don't wanna write about the same thing
30:39 forever and ever.
30:40 So I definitely sense that,
30:43 let's say my last couple of books have been about,
30:47 the first one was about careers,
30:48 second one was about race,
30:50 the third one was about money.
30:54 And I kind of hit a limit in terms of
30:57 finding it interesting to write about that.
30:59 So funnily enough, your book will come out
31:01 and then lots of editors, newspapers, magazines
31:04 will want you to write about that.
31:05 And still years on people will be like,
31:07 "Oh, could you write something for us about careers?"
31:08 And I'm like, "I'm done with that topic."
31:11 I've said everything I have to say about it
31:14 and I'm not somebody who just kind of repeats themselves
31:16 or rehashing it.
31:17 And I think that can be a very comfortable place to be,
31:19 but if I'm bored of it, I'm just like,
31:21 that's the worst to write something
31:23 that you now feel bored by, you've said that.
31:25 So I think things I hate writing about
31:28 are things that I've written about already a lot.
31:30 And then I'm like, "I can't do this anymore."
31:31 - Yeah, I know what you mean.
31:32 'Cause then I think you find yourself
31:33 just repeating the same ideas.
31:35 - Yeah, and I'm like,
31:35 "Well, I've already phrased it perfectly
31:37 the first time round.
31:38 So there's no point in me rehashing
31:40 of like the same words into a different format."
31:42 So I find that I tend to kind of hit a ceiling
31:47 for any specific topic.
31:49 And for instance, let's say with my money book,
31:50 for instance, it's a topic I'm thinking about for years.
31:53 And then, pitch the proposal, research it, write it.
32:00 And then it comes out, do press, do promo.
32:03 Let's say that process is about five years.
32:04 I'm like, "I'm done talking.
32:06 I've spent five years thinking
32:08 and talking about this subject."
32:10 It's not that I'm not still interested in it
32:12 in a more kind of passive way,
32:13 but I don't necessarily want that
32:14 to be what I'm working on day to day.
32:16 Like I want to move on to new things.
32:18 And I always find it fascinating
32:20 when I see other writers who like have lifelong careers
32:25 or certainly have written and focused on a certain topic
32:29 for much longer than five years,
32:30 because I'm like, "How do you not get bored?"
32:33 I find that really interesting.
32:35 But for me, that isn't the case.
32:37 - Yeah, no, me neither.
32:38 And I think it's also, it's just exciting
32:40 because then you're kind of constantly
32:42 challenging your brain and challenging yourself
32:44 to think about new subjects and enter into a new territory.
32:47 And like you've just done with your fashion newsletter
32:50 that I mentioned at the start, which is now every month.
32:53 - Yes, so it's a monthly newsletter called Add to Wishlist.
32:58 And it's basically sort of me kind of picking things
33:03 that I have bought, want to buy,
33:05 just like fashion picks essentially,
33:07 but also my thoughts on style and dressing
33:09 and fashion and shopping and my approach to it.
33:13 So it might be how I approach like bargain hunting.
33:16 So I'm like, I'm somebody who likes nice clothes.
33:19 I like designer clothes,
33:20 but it's like, I can't buy everything full price.
33:22 It's like, where am I looking to get a bargain?
33:24 Like, these are the websites you might have heard of.
33:26 Here are some deals I found for you.
33:27 Like, here are some strategies.
33:29 For instance, I don't shop during the sales
33:31 because I find that quite a stressful,
33:33 like high pressurized time to buy clothes.
33:36 And I find that in years gone by, I would just make mistakes.
33:39 So just different ways of thinking about like what you wear
33:45 and what it says about you and the importance of clothes.
33:47 So I'll usually kind of have like an introduction
33:49 of like a thousand words,
33:52 and then it gets into just like links of like,
33:53 and pictures of things I think are beautiful
33:56 and the odd bit of interior stuff.
33:58 But yeah, it's just, you know,
33:59 it's just, I wanted somewhere to talk about all that stuff
34:03 that wasn't Instagram,
34:04 because I think if you do that on Instagram,
34:06 sometimes it can feel,
34:08 there's just so much fashion content on Instagram,
34:11 I think already,
34:12 and it can feel a little bit like influencery.
34:14 I think because people are so used to seeing
34:16 brand recommendations in the context of them
34:20 kind of being a bit of a plug
34:22 or kind of like begging for a freebie kind of thing.
34:26 I was like, I wanna make it clear
34:27 that the stuff I'm recommending
34:28 is stuff that I genuinely like.
34:29 And I feel like for whatever reason,
34:31 people just don't trust that as much on Instagram.
34:34 Not that I have a problem with, you know,
34:37 that kind of format,
34:38 but I just felt like if I'm gonna be doing this constantly,
34:40 I don't want it to just be me like tagging
34:42 like a million brands,
34:43 and I'm like, I like this, I like this, I like this.
34:44 I think people interpret that in quite a negative way.
34:47 And so having a newsletter kind of
34:49 just makes it feel a bit more solid.
34:51 - That's it for today.
34:52 Thank you so much for listening.
34:55 And if you are a fan of Love Lives,
34:57 you can catch us on all major podcast platforms.
34:59 You can also watch us on Independent TV,
35:02 follow us on Instagram @lovelives,
35:05 and I will see you next time.
35:07 Thank you, bye.
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