Comedian Andrew Hunter Murray: ‘The political landscape is ripe for satire’
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00:00 (upbeat music)
00:02 - Hello and welcome to Love Lives,
00:07 a podcast from The Independent
00:09 where I, Olivia Petter, speak to different guests
00:12 about the loves of their lives.
00:13 Today, I am delighted to be joined by best-selling author,
00:17 QI writer, and co-host of the incredibly successful podcast,
00:22 No Such Thing as a Fish.
00:23 It's Andrew Hunter Murray.
00:25 - Hey!
00:26 - Andrew has written three brilliant novels,
00:29 including The Last Day, The Sanctuary,
00:32 and his latest, A Beginner's Guide to Breaking and Entering.
00:35 And yes, that is fiction.
00:37 On top of his books,
00:38 Andrew also writes jokes and journalism for Private Eye
00:41 and hosts The Eyes podcast, page 94.
00:44 I am so excited to talk to him today, so let's begin.
00:48 Welcome, Andrew.
00:49 - Thank you very much.
00:50 - Thank you so much for coming in.
00:51 Can you start us off by telling us about this novel
00:55 and, like I said, how it is not actually a guide
00:58 to breaking into someone's house like it might seem to be.
01:01 - It's a pretty good guide.
01:02 You know, there are practical tips.
01:04 I don't help at all with the lockpicking.
01:05 You're gonna have to do that yourself.
01:07 But everything else about blagging your way
01:09 into nice places you're not meant to be
01:10 is kind of in there.
01:11 - I mean, could you start us off by reading out
01:15 some of the rules that you've written in here?
01:16 Because I think that really captures the spirit of the book.
01:19 - I mean, rule nine, always have at least two backstories.
01:23 Rule six, prep your exits as soon as you're in.
01:25 Rule four, gloves.
01:26 Don't forget the gloves.
01:27 Rule two, never run.
01:28 And rule one, nobody ever, ever gets your real name.
01:31 It's about a guy called Al,
01:33 who lives in lovely, empty second homes
01:35 when the real owners are not there.
01:37 And he does it without their knowledge.
01:39 And he's very good at it.
01:40 He gets in, he doesn't damage anything,
01:42 doesn't smash anything,
01:43 just gets into these beautiful homes,
01:45 lives there, stays there, makes his way out.
01:47 If he's ever challenged,
01:48 he's always managed to bluff his way out of it.
01:51 And he has a great life up until about chapter three,
01:54 when things start going wrong.
01:56 And then from that point on, it's escalating trouble
01:58 for him and his friends.
01:59 - It is such a fun idea and concept for a novel.
02:02 And I just want to know everything
02:04 about how this idea came to you.
02:06 Because like I said, this is your third book now.
02:09 So how do you go about formulating an idea like this?
02:12 What comes first and how does it build?
02:15 - I think the sort of,
02:17 in every, because the books I've written
02:18 have been really different.
02:19 The first two are quite serious.
02:20 They're all thrillers, but the first two are quite serious.
02:21 They're quite futuristic.
02:22 They're a little bit sci-fi.
02:23 This one is set here and now.
02:25 It's a lot faster and funnier and a bit lighter.
02:29 And I think it's always the basic premise
02:31 of the world though, that appeals.
02:33 So I think this one came from,
02:35 I don't know if you remember the Christmas
02:36 that was canceled in 2020.
02:38 Yeah, a lot of us remember that.
02:39 It was bad.
02:40 Basically, my wife and I,
02:41 we would go walking around the local area
02:43 'cause we lived in Stockwell at the time,
02:45 next to Clapham, which has some beautiful houses.
02:47 And we would do long walks 'cause that was what was allowed.
02:51 And we saw these incredible houses all over,
02:54 all over Clapham, which they're like doll's houses.
02:57 And the lights are blazing away.
02:58 You can see these beautiful interiors and lives.
03:02 And it just, just really dream of living somewhere like that.
03:06 And I think that started me thinking
03:07 about how you get into places like this.
03:10 And there is a reason that people like other people's houses
03:14 is because it's other people's lives.
03:16 And we're all interested in other people's lives
03:18 'cause they might help us make sense of how we're living.
03:20 And we're worried we're not doing it right as well.
03:22 So I think that's where it came from in the first instance.
03:25 And then that blossomed,
03:26 the character of Al just arrived kind of fully formed.
03:29 And I just wanted to hang out with him.
03:30 - And how did you go about researching the novel?
03:32 Because presumably there was quite a lot of research
03:35 into how to actually break into someone's house
03:37 and how to do it without getting caught.
03:39 - I made up a lot of the rules.
03:41 They just sounded plausible to me.
03:43 - They do sound very plausible.
03:45 - Yeah, I think I would have a good chance of success
03:48 'cause it's all about, it's all confidence.
03:50 Al's whole thing is,
03:51 he's got some skills in terms of actually breaking in.
03:53 But the main thing is, he looks like he's meant to be there,
03:55 he acts like he's meant to be there.
03:57 And that is really, you know,
03:59 the way to get on in the world is,
04:03 we're all waiting for someone to say,
04:04 "Don't worry, I'm in charge, I know what's going on."
04:06 And Al basically can do that, you know?
04:08 So that's the entire trick.
04:10 - Yeah, it's the real kind of
04:11 fake it 'til you make it mentality.
04:13 And I suppose this is showing you
04:15 how far you can really take that.
04:17 I think what's really interesting about this book
04:19 is you're kind of examining this interesting time
04:21 in terms of where we are with the housing crisis.
04:23 So obviously now, you know, rents are sky high,
04:26 mortgages are unbearably expensive.
04:28 So it's an interesting time to write about housing,
04:31 particularly from this point of view.
04:33 Was that one of the things you wanted to explore
04:35 maybe more subconsciously through the plot?
04:38 - There is a bit of that in there.
04:39 I mean, the aim is always to entertain,
04:40 but there's just a little bit of, you know,
04:42 this is what it's actually like.
04:44 And part of the reason Al's a fun character
04:47 to spend time with, I hope,
04:48 is that it's kind of a fantasy of, you know,
04:51 he is moving around all the time,
04:52 but he's moving around between beautiful places
04:54 he doesn't pay any rent on.
04:56 And he is making use of, as you say,
04:58 this massive resource, these homes all over the place,
05:01 which are unoccupied, going wasted.
05:03 There are hundreds of thousands, millions of young people
05:06 who don't have somewhere decent, stable,
05:09 safe, comfortable to live.
05:11 And there are lots of houses that are empty
05:15 and are very nice.
05:15 I mean, it's just a marriage of the two, really.
05:18 And so Al is kind of, you know, it's a bit Robin Hood-y.
05:20 He's not doing it out of the kindness of his heart.
05:23 He's out for himself.
05:23 But there is a bit of that in it, too, definitely.
05:27 - And obviously there is a bit of political messaging there,
05:29 which is something that kind of comes through
05:31 in your other books, too.
05:32 What is it about the thriller genre
05:34 that you think lends itself
05:36 to those kind of political undertones in books?
05:39 Because I do think the two worlds collide quite neatly
05:41 in the fictional space.
05:43 - Yeah, I think so.
05:44 I mean, I like thrillers because they, you know,
05:47 a crime book, if I'm found dead in the kitchen one morning,
05:50 it's just really a matter of who did it
05:52 and we'll just work that out and what their motivation was.
05:55 And it's a very personal thing.
05:56 With a thriller, it's, I was killed,
05:58 but I'd recently taken a job at Omnicorp.
06:00 And then, and we follow what was going on at Omnicorp.
06:04 And there's a longer thread, if you like,
06:07 and there are bigger ramifications.
06:08 So I always like that kind of story,
06:10 which kind of fans out into something bigger or, you know,
06:14 and that's kind of why I'm drawn
06:15 to the thriller genre, I guess.
06:16 - Yeah, I know what you mean.
06:17 It's like a very dynamic lens
06:20 to kind of grip a reader through,
06:22 but then also make commentary
06:23 on wider issues you're interested in.
06:25 - And you've got one character,
06:27 or in this case, it's Alan and three of his friends.
06:29 It's a group of characters who are being pulled
06:31 into something that they don't understand at the start.
06:34 And they're trying to unravel the thing
06:35 from the middle of it
06:36 and trying to get themselves out of trouble
06:38 while getting themselves deeper into trouble.
06:39 So it's, you know, unexpected trouble is another,
06:44 probably that's the genre I really write in.
06:46 - Yeah, and I guess also a theme
06:47 that you cover in your work is wealth,
06:49 like extreme opulent wealth.
06:52 I mean, in "The Sanctuary," you write about Ben,
06:54 whose fiancee, Cara, has been living
06:56 on the remote island of Sanctuary Rock,
06:58 and it's the property of millionaire philanthropist,
07:00 Sir John Pemberley.
07:02 Cara decides to break off their engagement
07:04 and stay there for good,
07:05 which I think is such a fascinating commentary
07:07 in some of the billionaire CEOs that run our world.
07:10 I'm sure I don't need to name them,
07:12 but what is it that draws you
07:14 to writing about the uber wealthy?
07:16 - Um, they're kind of freed from responsibility
07:20 in a way that the rest of us are not.
07:22 And they're also, when you reach a certain level of wealth,
07:27 you are, to a certain extent,
07:30 invulnerable in normal society.
07:33 You have to do something really, really bad
07:35 as a billionaire to face consequences of your actions.
07:37 And it's an insane fact that billionaires exist.
07:42 I mean, it's a mad truth
07:44 that there are people who cannot really spend
07:47 all of their money, even if they tried to.
07:49 You know, it would be very hard
07:51 for a billionaire to spend all their money.
07:52 So you've got an unusual group of people
07:55 who, through circumstance,
07:57 whether it's they've made the money,
07:58 whether it's they've inherited it,
08:00 they have a different perspective on life.
08:02 And obviously, the overwhelming majority of us
08:06 are not only not billionaires, could never be billionaires.
08:09 So that is the dynamic.
08:11 But billionaires come into contact with people around them.
08:13 You can't only talk to the other 700 billionaires
08:15 on the planet, however many there are.
08:18 You talk to other people who don't have what you have,
08:20 and they will want something from you.
08:22 And that's the other interesting thing.
08:24 'Cause I've met a couple of people who've had,
08:26 I've never met a billionaire, I don't think,
08:27 but I've met people who've had lots of money,
08:29 and there is always a sense
08:32 in which everyone around you wants something.
08:34 And you're just trying to work out what it is they want,
08:36 and they're trying to conceal it, but also get it.
08:38 - Yeah, it's interesting.
08:39 It kind of reduces every human experience you have
08:43 to a transaction, I suppose, doesn't it?
08:45 - It would be very worrying.
08:46 I think it's almost impossible to stay sane as well
08:49 when you've got that much wealth
08:50 and you know that everyone around you doesn't.
08:52 That's why "Succession" is such a brilliant TV series,
08:54 is because it charts these people
08:56 who are all pretty messed up,
08:57 but are also incredibly powerful.
08:59 - Yeah, it's funny, because we look at billionaires
09:01 that we know, and they're all categorically
09:03 pretty fucking terrible.
09:05 Not even just terrible, but just slightly odd,
09:07 which I think also makes sense, because like you said,
09:10 they have such a unique experience of the world
09:13 and with other people.
09:14 So of course, they are going to be quite strange people.
09:17 - I think the key might be to develop a hobby
09:19 that you can't buy your way out of.
09:20 'Cause basically, a hobby where you can collect,
09:22 you can buy all the stamps in the world.
09:24 Fine, done, right?
09:25 Okay, done.
09:25 What am I gonna do with my afternoon?
09:27 So that's out.
09:29 So it's gotta be something else, you know?
09:31 - So what, like painting?
09:32 - Something like really, really, really hard Sudoku,
09:35 I think, where you can't actually do it yourself.
09:39 - Well, yeah, you have to work it out.
09:40 - Maybe that would solve all of our problems
09:42 if we just put all the terrible billionaires into one room
09:45 and give them a really challenging Sudoku to solve.
09:49 I feel like that could be quite a humbling experience
09:51 for them.
09:51 - Yeah, like when you go up to space for the first time
09:53 and you see Earth without its borders and boundaries,
09:55 you think, my God, we're all just humans, all of us.
09:58 Yeah, maybe, yeah.
10:00 - As I mentioned earlier, one of the places you write for
10:03 is Private Eye, as well as hosting its podcast,
10:05 which I can imagine must be a very fun job.
10:08 - Great fun.
10:09 - What place do you think a magazine like Private Eye
10:12 has now in our, I guess, let's just say,
10:14 capricious political landscape?
10:17 Why do you think satire is so vital during times like these?
10:21 - Oh, man, look around you, you know?
10:22 I mean, the really nice thing that Private Eye does,
10:25 it does have the jokes in the middle,
10:27 but it has this thick layer of investigative journalism
10:30 on the outside, and that's an amazing combination,
10:32 which took some years to develop into its current form.
10:37 But at the moment, Private Eye was on the story
10:40 of the post office, my colleague Richard Brooks,
10:43 who was on that really early,
10:45 or my colleague Heather Mills writing about Lockerbie
10:48 or the Tainted Blood scandal, all of these journalists
10:50 write really interesting stories,
10:52 and the stories are told when they can be
10:54 with a little bit of humor, and that's very,
10:57 that's a really encouraging way of getting the message
10:59 across to people, so I think that's why Private Eye
11:02 is such a valuable thing.
11:03 - I also think there is so much happening in the world
11:05 that's so ripe for satire, and it almost helps you
11:07 to understand it more.
11:08 I think the best journalists and the best columnists
11:11 offer news in a way that encourages you to understand it
11:14 by making fun of it.
11:15 - Yeah, completely, yeah, yeah, yeah,
11:17 and the story, the storyfying it, if you like,
11:19 and that's the entire art of journalism,
11:21 is to turn something into a story.
11:23 And that's why when the ITV drama of Mr. Bates came out,
11:26 that's what, that suddenly the story,
11:27 which had been kicking around since Computer Weekly
11:30 first published it in 2009, I think,
11:33 suddenly came to everyone's consciousness,
11:35 and you know, there are a few hundred people
11:37 who've been writing and thinking about it,
11:38 who are going, "Why this now?
11:40 "I mean, we know it's really bad."
11:41 So I think that's the way.
11:43 In fact, Richard can help me with a lot
11:45 of the consulting work on,
11:46 there's a strong money laundering thread
11:48 in Breaking and Entering, and he was very useful
11:50 advising how you get the money out of dodgy account
11:53 in Switzerland or wherever,
11:54 and into the London property market,
11:57 and then into your pocket.
11:59 - I wanna talk to you about Twitter X briefly,
12:01 because it used to be this real haven for writers,
12:04 and it used to be this place where a lot of journalists
12:06 kind of made their name and rose up through the ranks,
12:09 and I think since Elon Musk bought it,
12:11 a lot of writers have since left.
12:13 So tell me what you like about Twitter,
12:15 because you are still active on it.
12:18 - I mean, asking me what I like about it is tricky,
12:20 'cause it's like asking an addict
12:22 what they like about their drug of choice.
12:23 It's just, what do I like about opium?
12:27 I don't know, it's moorish.
12:28 Yeah, I'm sort of, I like it because
12:32 of exactly what you described.
12:34 It has been, and to an extent still is,
12:37 a place where you can gather
12:38 lots of the most interesting minds
12:40 on any subject you're interested in,
12:42 and they're there, and you can write to them,
12:43 and sometimes they'll write back,
12:45 and they'll, you know, so I'm really interested
12:46 in things like clean energy and sustainability.
12:49 All of these people, world-leading scientists and writers,
12:52 and data scientists, people like that, they're on there,
12:56 and they're putting out this really interesting information,
12:59 so I feel like you can still curate it
13:01 to be whatever you like, you know.
13:03 You just can't go below the comment line now,
13:06 which is a real shame, because you used to get a lot more,
13:09 I think, of the organic conversations developing.
13:11 - Have you ever been badly trolled?
13:13 - No, I never have.
13:14 I'm quite lucky in that respect.
13:15 I think because, A, I'm a man.
13:17 - I was about to say. - Yeah, yeah, don't worry.
13:18 No, no, no, that has helped.
13:20 - That's crazy, though.
13:21 Really, never?
13:22 - No, the only time I've ever got near it was when,
13:24 'cause I do this podcast, No Such Thing as a Fish.
13:26 We had a TV series briefly in 2016,
13:28 and we did a couple of series of it,
13:30 and there, whenever it went out,
13:32 you'd get people sending you,
13:34 but it wasn't bad abuse, but it was a bit of abuse,
13:36 and I think that's because you're just on someone's TV,
13:38 and they decide, "Oh, I'm just gonna,"
13:39 podcasts you have to opt into.
13:41 It's very, very rare to get trolled
13:43 for anything I've said over the last 10 years
13:45 on No Such Thing as a Fish,
13:46 because it's an audience who've chosen to be with you,
13:49 and to an extent, you are shaping your audience there
13:51 as well by the kind of show that you're making.
13:53 Our audience is very different to Joe Rogan's,
13:55 or it'll be different to yours, or whatever,
13:57 so yeah, that's helpful.
13:59 Yeah, I mean, Twitter can also be a very joyful place.
14:02 Your tweets are often the ones that go viral
14:03 and make me laugh a lot.
14:05 What have you been surprised about
14:07 that's gone viral or been really widely shared?
14:09 Oh, there was one,
14:11 it was some stupid joke about Donald Trump,
14:13 and it was just, I think, hundreds of thousands of people
14:17 liking or retweeting it.
14:18 I'm quite careful not to be intensely rude
14:21 about anyone on Twitter,
14:23 but I make up for that by being very rude
14:25 in my private life about all sorts of people.
14:27 I think that's a nice--
14:27 (laughing)
14:28 Yeah, but no, I give away almost nothing about myself,
14:32 and that's maybe a bit, I don't know,
14:34 it's a bit pathological, but I tend to,
14:37 I've been doing, like, fish, we've been doing for 10 years,
14:40 and if you listen to the whole back catalogue,
14:44 there are about four facts about me in there.
14:45 That's crazy, how do you manage to do that?
14:47 I mean, I remember when we met,
14:48 we talked about writing about our own lives,
14:50 and you said you never ever reveal anything
14:52 or give anything away, and I was like, how?
14:56 And again, I do think it's the man thing,
14:58 that you're able to get away with that.
15:00 - People are not as interested in,
15:02 (laughing)
15:04 I'm not saying that with any false self-deprecation
15:06 or anything, I think people want to know about women,
15:10 women of all ages, it's just, it's interesting to people.
15:14 And when you make something,
15:16 specifically when you make something as a woman,
15:18 there is a sense of, right, we're gonna kind of go through it
15:21 for your personal life, and we're gonna see
15:22 how this maps onto your personal life now,
15:23 and we'd like to know every little bit of information
15:25 about how the two dovetail.
15:26 Did you actually make any of this up?
15:28 Is it fiction, or have you just written out your life?
15:30 - Because you're not on Instagram, are you?
15:32 - No.
15:33 - Is that one of the reasons why you're not on there,
15:34 for privacy reasons?
15:36 - I just don't lead a very visually interesting life.
15:39 I'm sure you, in the average day,
15:40 see more interesting things than I do, right?
15:43 - Do you ever go on Instagram at all, in any capacity?
15:46 - No. - Really?
15:47 - No, I'm too busy reading about wind turbines on Twitter,
15:50 it's a full-time job.
15:51 (upbeat music)
15:55 (upbeat music)
15:57 - Okay, let's move on to the loves of your life.
16:01 Your first one is something we've never had
16:02 on this show before, and I had to read it several times,
16:05 because I did not know what it was.
16:08 Tell us about the Trek 7.1 bike.
16:12 - There we go, you nailed it.
16:13 It's a wonderful, it's a hybrid bike.
16:14 It's not one of the bikes with the tiny, thin wheels,
16:17 where you can only drive around selected bits of round,
16:19 drive, ride around selected bits of East London,
16:21 'cause the, and it's only got one gear,
16:22 so you can't go up hills all day, just, you know.
16:24 So those are your road bikes.
16:26 This is not gonna be a hubcap situation.
16:28 I'm gonna give you no technical,
16:29 I'm not gonna be saying, the new Shimano brakes,
16:33 I've managed to secure at some extent,
16:35 I'm not gonna do any of that.
16:36 I don't know how to fix a bike.
16:37 I'm very lucky I've never had a puncture,
16:39 and I'd be stuffed if I did.
16:40 I mean, that's, it's just good fortune.
16:41 And yet, I love cycling so much,
16:43 because it's just, it's another kind of freedom.
16:46 You're traveling at the speed,
16:48 which is fast enough to look around you
16:49 and see things rolling by,
16:51 and you're not going so fast
16:52 that you can't really engage with it,
16:52 and you're in the open air.
16:53 So I've been cycling since I was quite young.
16:56 I actually got kicked off my cycling proficiency course.
16:58 You see, I'm blabbing my secrets of my life.
17:01 This is the podcast environment, I get podcast mail.
17:03 I was a bit of a bad boy.
17:04 I turned up with a VMX, and they said,
17:06 "Sorry, eight-year-old Andy, no dice.
17:09 "We need gears so that you can safely complete the course."
17:12 Pretty brutal.
17:13 - And so, what is so good about this Trek 7.1?
17:16 - This is just, 'cause it's my bike,
17:17 and I've had it for 12 years,
17:19 and I've lost it, and I've had it stolen,
17:21 and I've got it back.
17:21 - Yes, you said before that you've had your bike stolen,
17:24 and you got it back.
17:25 How did that happen?
17:26 - Do you remember the riots in 2011?
17:27 I went along to one on my bike,
17:29 quite a new bike at the time,
17:31 and I was just rubbernecking.
17:32 I wasn't there for any trainers or anything,
17:33 but I just thought, "Oh, how interesting."
17:36 There's things you do in your 20s,
17:37 which you look back and you think,
17:38 "How stupid were you?
17:40 "You idiot."
17:41 I just went along, and someone punched me
17:42 and took the bike, and that was that.
17:43 - So you fell off the bike, and they took it.
17:45 And how on earth did you get it back?
17:47 - Well, I walked home,
17:48 and then I contacted the police,
17:51 'cause I'd written down,
17:52 and this is a tip for anyone who's got a bike,
17:55 write down that frame number.
17:56 The frame number is kind of indelible.
17:58 It's like etched onto the underside of the bike.
17:59 It's kind of like welded.
18:01 I don't know how they do it, but.
18:02 So it's very, very secure.
18:03 So if you have the frame number,
18:04 they can identify the bike.
18:05 And literally the day after the riots,
18:06 the local police had just gone around the usual suspects
18:08 and said, "That's a nice new bike you've got."
18:11 And then, yeah, by the time I phoned up to say,
18:13 "Oh, I've had my bike nicked,"
18:15 they'd already got it.
18:16 So it has a special place in my heart.
18:18 But generally it's just cycling,
18:21 the freedom it gives you.
18:22 Also, I cycle with a friend of mine.
18:25 It's really good to have conversations
18:27 when you're cycling,
18:28 because like actually sitting in a car,
18:31 anything where you're sitting next to someone
18:32 allows you to have a much better conversation, I think,
18:34 which is why this is nearly the perfect format.
18:36 If you and I were sitting facing outwards,
18:38 we would get very real very quickly.
18:40 - I know what you mean.
18:41 It's kind of like being in a confession booth.
18:43 - Maybe it's how to talk to men.
18:44 How to talk to repressed men is no eye contact.
18:48 It really helps, you know.
18:51 That's my indication.
18:52 Confession booth is another good one too, though.
18:54 - What's the longest distance you've cycled in London?
18:57 - I was about to cheat and say I cycled to Paris,
18:58 but that is not in London, so.
19:00 - You cycled to Paris?
19:01 - Takes a few days.
19:02 You stop off along the way,
19:04 some baguettes, some wine.
19:05 You end up literally at the Arc de Triomphe.
19:07 The last bit is horrible,
19:09 because, well, Paris used to be a lot more trafficky
19:12 than it is now.
19:13 They've kind of clamped down on it, but yeah.
19:14 The last miles of cycling before the Arc de Triomphe
19:17 are not dreamy.
19:19 You're not actually doing the Amelie style.
19:22 Good morning, butcher.
19:23 Good morning, baker.
19:24 You are just fighting small citrons.
19:26 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
19:28 - And your second love is one that's quite common
19:30 for writers, but yours is quite specific.
19:32 So again, like the bike,
19:34 tell us about this specific brand of notebook
19:36 that I am not even going to try and pronounce.
19:39 - Leuchtturm.
19:40 It's a German brand,
19:41 and my local bookshop had a stand of these things.
19:45 And I'm sure you know the experience as a writer.
19:48 You want to buy a fancy notebook
19:49 so you can prevaricate actually writing anything.
19:52 If we were really trying to write as fast as we could,
19:57 we'd write on anything.
19:57 We're on a kitchen paper, you know.
19:58 But you want to get it just right.
20:00 You have a nice little notebook.
20:01 I saw this stand.
20:02 It said Leuchtturm, and then it said,
20:04 Denken mit den Hand, thinking with the hand.
20:07 Wow.
20:08 I mean, I paid way too much money that the thing cost.
20:11 And it was, yeah, and I just, I don't know.
20:14 It's just always nice having a little notebook.
20:15 I feel like I'm not really fully equipped
20:17 if I don't have one.
20:18 - You said that you wrote your book in it.
20:19 - I handwrite all my night,
20:20 I do all my planning and scene planning,
20:23 and then eventually the laptop starts taking over.
20:26 And then everything I actually write out,
20:28 I write out on screen.
20:30 But when you're writing a character for the first time,
20:33 when you're writing where your character might go,
20:35 so useful to have.
20:36 I do think you're thinking with the hand.
20:38 - Yeah, so tell me more about the process
20:40 of how you plan writing,
20:41 'cause with my novel, I kind of was so haphazard about it.
20:44 You know, I had various notebooks.
20:46 I would then write chapter breakdowns
20:48 and kind of do like diagrams sometimes,
20:50 but there was no rhyme or reason
20:52 to anything that I was doing.
20:53 How was it for you?
20:54 Were you quite strategic in how you kind of went about it?
20:57 - Yeah, I think I have to be,
20:59 'cause I have tried the other method
21:01 of just starting and seeing where you get to.
21:03 And I wrote about a third of a book's worth
21:06 and then ran out of steam and stopped,
21:07 and then start that same book again.
21:09 So I've worked out through experience I can't do that.
21:12 - But I suppose with these kinds of books,
21:14 you kind of need to know where you're going
21:15 because of the elaborate plot.
21:16 - Exactly, you need a destination
21:19 and you need a pretty clear route.
21:21 But the thing is, as on the Trek 7.1,
21:25 it's all about what you see along the way.
21:26 So when you're doing the writing,
21:27 it doesn't feel like you're having to write out
21:30 or type out the exact thing that you've been planning
21:33 because you notice your character's in a coffee shop,
21:36 you notice something unusual about the barista
21:37 or about the style of the building
21:39 or whatever it is.
21:40 So that's how you have fun while you're writing it.
21:42 You're kind of constantly entertaining yourself.
21:44 And yeah, so it's a fun process at both sides.
21:48 - And what do you do when you get writer's block,
21:50 if you get writer's block?
21:51 - I do get writer's block all the time.
21:54 I just don't write for a bit.
21:56 And then I've never had a really bad case.
21:58 I've never had six months of,
21:59 but I think writers always procrastinate.
22:01 - What kind of things do you like to do
22:03 when you procrastinate?
22:04 Because you're not scrolling through Instagram
22:05 like most people.
22:07 - No, but I am finding out some really interesting
22:08 new heat pump studies that have been published on Twitter.
22:10 And that's...
22:11 (laughing)
22:12 - I actually don't even think you're joking.
22:14 I think you're being deadly serious.
22:15 - I'm being deadly serious.
22:17 You know, because I'm informing myself
22:18 and that's actually for the writer,
22:19 that's very important.
22:20 And you can come up with any way of justifying it.
22:22 But you know, I'm not,
22:24 you know, the Seinfeld method.
22:25 I mean, Jerry Seinfeld just goes in a room
22:27 with a pad of paper.
22:28 He's not allowed to come out for two hours.
22:30 He can, and he says, my options are,
22:31 I can write or I can do nothing.
22:33 I'm allowed to do either of those,
22:34 but I can't do any third thing.
22:35 And that's a very good, that is quite powerful actually.
22:37 I mean, just, we're not designed to be in a room
22:39 with a box that contains all the world's information
22:42 and entertainment.
22:43 - And how often can you write without distraction?
22:45 Like what's your kind of daily routine
22:48 if you're sitting down to work on your novel?
22:50 How do you structure your day?
22:51 - I do it all before my working day starts,
22:53 whether I'm at the podcast or at Private Eye.
22:55 So I just, the morning is where I have time
22:57 to have a clear mind and think and write.
23:00 So yeah, I have tried writing in the evenings,
23:02 but I'm too sort of...
23:03 - No, I can't write in the evenings either.
23:05 I always love the idea of being one of those
23:07 sexy late night novelists that sits there
23:09 with a glass of wine and a candle,
23:11 just like, "Oh, I'm just writing my novel now."
23:13 Like very Carrie Bradshaw.
23:15 But I can't do that.
23:16 I have to do it in the day and come like 6 p.m., 7 p.m.,
23:19 I just wanna eat and watch telly.
23:20 - Was Carrie Bradshaw, in the world of the show,
23:22 a good writer?
23:23 - That's a very debatable question.
23:25 I don't know.
23:26 I mean, it's not like the best prose ever,
23:28 but I feel bad insulting her because I do think
23:31 that that show is part of the reason why I do what I do.
23:35 - Well, there we go.
23:35 Okay.
23:36 Do you drink while you write?
23:37 - No, but that's 'cause I write in the morning, you know?
23:40 And I make a rule never to have a drink before 10,
23:42 so I can't do it.
23:43 - This is one last question
23:46 before we move on to your final love,
23:47 but when did you decide or realize
23:50 that you wanted to be a writer?
23:51 - Oh, really young.
23:52 Well, I knew I wanted to be a reader,
23:54 which I think is a slightly different thing.
23:56 As in, I was a very keen reader from a really young age.
23:59 And I sort of thought that I would get there somehow,
24:03 but I didn't put any work into it until my mid-20s.
24:05 I didn't actually do the work of actually writing
24:07 lots and lots of early attempts at stuff,
24:09 which is weird.
24:12 It's kind of like when you're young
24:14 and you're watching the Olympics,
24:15 and you sort of think, "I'll get there.
24:17 "By the time I'm 12,
24:18 "I'll probably be this good at gymnastics."
24:19 And you don't actually, and then we don't, so we're not.
24:22 And I had the same kind of thing.
24:24 I just, you know, I knew I wanted to be
24:26 in the world of books,
24:27 and I read everything I could get my hands on.
24:30 And then only when I was in my early 20s
24:32 did I start really writing in earnest.
24:34 And while there are some poems
24:36 that'll never see the light of day.
24:37 - Really? Why never?
24:38 - Never, ever. Never, ever.
24:41 You know that thing where people
24:42 read out their teenage diaries?
24:43 I've got, yeah, I would, for the same reason,
24:46 because I would die of embarrassment.
24:47 And that would crimp my career.
24:49 So I would actually, literally die.
24:52 - So were novels always the plan, like the kind of goal?
24:55 - Again, calling it plan or goal is a very kind way
24:58 of putting my, how I was thinking about it
25:02 or working about it.
25:03 But yeah, I've always preferred reading fiction
25:04 to anything else.
25:05 It's interesting because most fiction is both bought and read
25:08 and I think increasingly written by women.
25:09 So I find it very depressing how few men read fiction.
25:12 - I know, I've read a few articles about this.
25:14 And to the point where I have started asking
25:16 my male friends, you know, when I talk about books,
25:18 "Do you ever read fiction?"
25:20 And they almost always say no.
25:21 - Well, there are so many SAS memoirs to get through first.
25:25 But what if I need to kill someone with a biro
25:27 and I haven't read Ant Middleton's latest?
25:29 I'll feel like a fool.
25:30 But that's the nice thing about
25:31 a beginner's guide to breaking and entering,
25:32 is that I really think it's for everybody.
25:34 - And your third love is a box set,
25:37 which I have to say again, I have not seen.
25:39 But tell us all about why you've chosen "Frasier."
25:42 - Have you not seen "Frasier?"
25:43 - Never.
25:43 - You have, I'm so envious of you in this moment.
25:46 - Is it one of those that's just really like formative?
25:50 - I think if you ever take the plunge,
25:52 you won't regret it.
25:54 It's a show, it's about Frasier Crane,
25:55 who's a very fussy uptight shrink,
25:58 but he's a radio shrink, he's a celebrity shrink.
26:00 So he's slightly traded in his credibility
26:02 for fame and money.
26:04 His brother, Niles, also a fussy uptight shrink.
26:07 They weren't afraid to have two main characters
26:09 being exactly the same,
26:10 which I think is amazing and weird.
26:11 Their dad, who's a retired cop, who is very different,
26:14 and his physical therapist, he's played by Jane Leaves,
26:17 she's also brilliant, she's from Manchester, allegedly.
26:20 And it's about their life in Seattle.
26:22 I mean, none of this is really,
26:25 I loved this when I was quite young,
26:26 and I wasn't any of these things, you know.
26:30 And it's amazing how the show manages to make
26:33 the life of two people who are very outside
26:35 the ordinary run of things relatable and lovable.
26:38 And it's because they're very funny, they're very smart,
26:41 all of them, everyone is funny and bright and interesting,
26:46 but they're also flawed.
26:47 And you really see the flaws of Frasier
26:49 and everyone around him.
26:50 And it's not presented triumphantly.
26:53 You see his weaknesses, you see him being blinded
26:57 when he fancies someone,
26:58 and he makes a complete fool of himself,
27:00 or you see him being a complete uptight fusspot
27:02 and ruining his own day.
27:04 So it's about someone who doesn't know
27:05 how to get out of his own way.
27:06 And it's incredibly winning.
27:09 It's warm, but it's not cuddly.
27:11 There's always a bit of a spike in there.
27:15 - And when do you find yourself returning to watch it now?
27:18 - At any opportunity I can.
27:19 I really, I just, I love it.
27:21 I think I've watched, well, for a while,
27:24 I had seen seasons three to 11,
27:26 and I couldn't bear to watch seasons one and two,
27:28 because I would then have finished Frasier.
27:30 And there would be no new Frasier.
27:32 And it's that good.
27:33 And it's a farce as well.
27:34 A lot of the episodes are perfect, tightly written farces.
27:37 So if you're interested in writing.
27:39 - I was about to say, do you think part of it
27:41 is how you learned about writing and dialogue?
27:43 - Yeah, definitely.
27:44 Yeah.
27:44 See, it's a big, it feels weird,
27:46 'cause I've written three thriller novels,
27:48 you know, to say that Frasier is a big influence.
27:50 But seeing how people react to each other,
27:53 seeing how you can show enough character
27:54 without showing, without, what am I trying to say there?
27:59 Seeing how you can show someone's character
28:02 through their behavior, which is the key for so much,
28:06 particularly on screen, you know,
28:08 you don't have the luxury of an omniscient narrator.
28:10 You have to show the character through what people say.
28:13 - I'm always interested in hearing how writers,
28:15 particularly fiction writers,
28:16 like how few of them have done creative writing courses.
28:19 But I feel like there's always something
28:20 that you feel like that introduced me
28:22 to character development, structure,
28:24 writing comedy, creating drama.
28:26 I guess, do you just pick it up subconsciously?
28:28 - I think you do.
28:29 Almost everyone who's reading
28:30 is not thinking about these things,
28:32 but you are learning a lot about story.
28:33 And readers know when a story rings false,
28:37 when it doesn't quite work.
28:38 And I think when a book is successful,
28:41 it's because it's managed to do something.
28:43 And it might not be for everybody,
28:45 but it has connected with people
28:47 and it's found its audience.
28:48 So you are always kind of listening to the audience
28:51 in that sense and working out what you've done
28:53 that they've liked and what you've done
28:55 that they haven't liked is really important for an author,
28:58 'cause we're all wanting to tell stories
29:01 to as many people and to connect with an audience.
29:05 So yeah, every time you watch a story that works,
29:08 you know about it.
29:09 - Do you find you have to be quite careful
29:11 about what you're reading when you're writing?
29:12 Like if you read other books while you're writing?
29:14 'Cause I definitely do.
29:15 And I feel like it leads into my writing style.
29:18 - 'Cause I've written two.
29:19 I mean, this is such a curve ball from the previous two.
29:21 You know, the first two were not funny.
29:22 This is funny.
29:24 So I read pretty, I have a pretty Catholic taste.
29:27 I read kind of anything that comes across my desk, you know?
29:30 So I have never found myself aping anyone yet.
29:34 - That is all we've got time for.
29:35 Thank you so much, Andrew.
29:37 It's been such a pleasure to chat to you today.
29:39 That is it for today.
29:41 Thank you so much for listening.
29:42 If you have enjoyed this episode of Love Lives,
29:44 you can listen to all of our episodes
29:46 on all major podcast platforms.
29:48 You can also watch us on independent TV
29:50 and all social media platforms.
29:52 I will see you next time.
29:53 Bye.
29:54 (upbeat music)
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