Marco Schuler in conversation with Annette Vogel. Annette Vogel heads the Museum Penzberg-Sammlung Campendonk and is curator of the ADAC's (Munich) corporate collection.
She has accompanied Marco Schuler's work for 20 years. Marco Schuler. Artist Talk at Behncke Gallery Munich. Munich (Germany), May 4, 2024.
She has accompanied Marco Schuler's work for 20 years. Marco Schuler. Artist Talk at Behncke Gallery Munich. Munich (Germany), May 4, 2024.
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00:00 Welcome to you all here in the Behnke Gallery, in my gallery and also in the Ludwig Space.
00:06 These two formats are related because the gallery is of course the work with the artist and the Ludwig Space is my think tank.
00:18 I want to set up this gallery as a think tank for artistic positions of our time,
00:24 to set up the themes of our time and at the same time develop their own visual language,
00:30 which I also try to position and sell.
00:34 But at the same time I am also interested in the artist's ongoing statement on the themes of our time
00:40 and to be part of the discussion, in the discourse.
00:44 And that's why the dialogue is always very important to me and I'm very happy that you're all here today.
00:50 The dialogue today takes place between Marco Schuler, the artist of this individual exhibition,
00:56 whom I warmly welcome, and also Fruben about this great exhibition with over 47 works plus 7 films.
01:04 So this is the biggest exhibition I've had here in the gallery so far.
01:08 And Annette Vogel, she is the curator of the ADAC, the ADAC Company Collection,
01:13 and she also heads the Campendonk Museum in Penzberg
01:17 and has known Marco Schuler for over 20 years, accompanies his work.
01:21 And I am very happy that you both are starting an artist talk today.
01:27 And with that I hand over to both of you and also to the group.
01:33 Thank you.
01:36 Dear visitors, dear friends, dear art seekers in Munich,
01:44 I'm glad you came. I'm glad we can talk about your work here with Marco Schuler this afternoon.
01:52 And I'd like to go straight to Medias Res.
01:57 We're sitting here in the world of Marco Schuler, I would say.
02:01 We're diving into painting, into the world.
02:04 There are 47 pictures, as you said, so for a gallery, a very nice flood of pictures.
02:10 And that's exactly what you wanted.
02:12 I think you wanted even more, but I think the connection has become super good,
02:16 so that we can really see how some things are floating, how some things are pushing up,
02:21 how the movement here at home is, how this abundance excites us to think,
02:27 to think, to smile and to feel.
02:32 And now I'm going to start very classic.
02:35 So I'm an art historian and I'm always responsible for the chronology.
02:40 Marco Schuler was born in the 1970s, grew up in Freiburg
02:46 and studied philosophy there before he came to Munich
02:52 and studied sculpting in the class of Olaf Metzel.
02:57 And he says it's all a coincidence, a very conscious decision.
03:01 And we're already at peculiarities that make up his work.
03:05 This brilliant combination of conscious decision and coincidence,
03:10 that's what's actually in the heart of creativity, and that's what we're trying to find here.
03:15 And yes, it's a lightness, but of course there are also the heavy topics.
03:22 You see here, it's about war, it's about protection, it's about the mythology of the world,
03:27 about the history of creation.
03:29 We really have these topics that move people and encourage us to think,
03:36 which are always up-to-date, which are always up-to-date again and again,
03:40 and thus serve a universality that in this form almost...
03:47 You can equate it with mythology, you can equate it with imagery.
03:51 So there's a lot in there that we're going to try to decipher in the individual.
03:56 Artists are always a bit like that, when I ask, "How do you interpret yourself?"
04:01 Then you would first deny a little, like I tried to reach you again this morning,
04:07 to ask, "What are we doing this afternoon? What are we talking about?"
04:12 And then I noticed a certain resistance, "It's clear, ey, what we're talking about."
04:18 About painting, about imagery.
04:21 And it led to me just jokingly asking, "What should I wear?"
04:26 And then he countered in such a way that it was clear,
04:30 according to the motto, "Relax your neck," as if you were just coming from the beach.
04:34 It was a total instruction.
04:37 And so his pictures and videos are understandable.
04:40 It has a lot to do with instruction, it has a lot to do with space,
04:46 and the human being is always in the middle.
04:49 And now I'm going to give you the floor and ask you the same question.
04:54 But I still want to briefly tell you how we met in Freiburg.
04:59 I have two important works that I can remember.
05:02 One video was called "Schuler zieht sich an."
05:07 And there he was, to see how he dressed.
05:11 But there was a lot of headwind.
05:13 He was standing in this headwind machine, which you normally use to test cars.
05:18 110 kilometers per hour of wind came at him.
05:21 And getting dressed in the meantime is a real work.
05:27 And as an art historian, of course, I was also interested in the "Faltenwurf."
05:31 And it's about the mythology of the Nike by Sammo Traake.
05:35 So these things are in there.
05:37 And nowadays, after I now lead the ADAC company collection,
05:42 which has to do with mobility, I still think it's great.
05:46 The second video you showed me was...
05:50 What was the title of the second one? "Naked in Porsche."
05:55 No, no. It was called "Es fährt Porsche."
06:00 So it's not that flat, of course.
06:03 But the titles are always very universal.
06:09 And it's about this process, about undertaking this process
06:14 and perceiving the Porsche in a different way.
06:17 What kind of kick can a Porsche give you?
06:20 But now I'll hand it over to you.
06:22 And I'll say it again, that you, in the first place, understand yourself as a sculptor.
06:29 But then, at the same time, also as a painter.
06:33 And let's start with the sculpting, with the films
06:37 and with this kind of overall work of art that you create.
06:42 So let's start with something big.
06:45 If I were to ask you now, what is the most important thing for you
06:49 when you enter the art, into this world?
06:53 Basically, the most important thing is always the small steps.
07:00 No matter what journey you take.
07:03 And that was, as you just mentioned, the appeal for me
07:07 in this video with the wind channel.
07:10 I was always interested in how you can achieve as much change or design
07:16 with as few gestures as possible.
07:21 That was always attractive to me, because it is mostly the small gestures
07:25 that change the whole life, if you look at it from the long perspective.
07:32 So, in this respect, if you look on the Internet now,
07:36 there are of course heartbreaking videos.
07:40 I didn't care about this hazardous or self-portrayal,
07:46 but I always wanted to give myself completely into my work.
07:54 That's why I always limit myself there, also with the videos.
07:57 That's how I started.
07:59 By the way, I started with the videos a year before I was done here with the Academy.
08:03 I said, I'm not going to an atelier anymore from the Academy,
08:07 because I can't afford an atelier in Munich anyway.
08:10 I'm going to buy a video camera now and it has to be possible to work anywhere.
08:15 For me, the way I work is just intertwined with my life.
08:27 I always wanted it that way.
08:29 That's why it was about taking small steps and somehow
08:35 getting me into the astonishment.
08:39 That's always my approach.
08:42 In these videos that we see up here now, we also hear the knocking sound from time to time.
08:46 You can already tell that it's about accessing with force.
08:50 You use your human power to bring yourself into a sculptural context.
08:56 You climb along a tree, which you cross, so that you really get over it.
09:02 You climb through a large pipeline that runs along a river.
09:09 Or you wrap yourself in styrofoam as if you were a sculpture and smash it.
09:15 Or you roll into a carpet and roll through the room
09:19 and take this room as a rolling sculpture, so to speak.
09:23 You also see the boundaries.
09:27 Now, looking at this work, how do you expand the concept of art,
09:33 the classical concept of sculpture?
09:39 I think, as was shown in the Wind Canal video,
09:46 if you pull against the wind, you have to constantly
09:50 pull yourself into the present.
09:53 If you don't, you don't have time to distance yourself from yourself,
09:58 but you are absolutely busy with this task of pulling yourself into it.
10:03 That's what most people always say, you have to get into the presence.
10:08 Or rather, into the flow.
10:11 Of course, there is always an idea at the beginning,
10:15 but I then get very involved in it, even in painting.
10:18 I say, you have this canvas, you have these colors, you have this room.
10:22 I always want to do something.
10:28 Maybe that's what drives me.
10:33 I think it's the attitude, whether I'm doing a sculpture or a video,
10:38 or a picture, it's always similar.
10:42 I try to get into the subject as much as possible,
10:47 or to understand it as an opposite,
10:50 so that I stop, go beyond the idea,
10:54 dive in completely and ideally get into the flow,
10:58 and then get out of it somewhere I didn't think I would.
11:03 It's a principle that's clear to me.
11:10 If I knew what would come out of it from the start,
11:13 I wouldn't have to do it anymore.
11:15 Someone else could do it.
11:17 It's always about going on the journey yourself.
11:22 And this journey always has some surprises.
11:27 Ideally, I surprise myself.
11:31 It's actually the basic principle of creativity,
11:34 that you shoot beyond the goal you have,
11:39 to then come across coincidences that carry you even further.
11:43 Still, I see something else in your pictures,
11:46 a kind of mythology, of self-created mythology.
11:50 Then there are references where we say,
11:53 for example, up here, it has a comic-like language,
11:56 "Die and know," or here, "Peace and peace."
12:00 And at the same time you always play with the opposites,
12:04 with the things that are currently political
12:11 or currently socially acceptable,
12:15 and you transfer them into a visual language
12:19 from which you assume that your visitor can already read them.
12:23 Is that important to you, or is it also that you assume
12:29 and transfer it to the other person?
12:32 Well, first of all, I have to assume,
12:36 and in the moment I do that,
12:40 I try to push it so far that it gets a certain general approval.
12:46 And that can only be achieved
12:49 if I process my own thoughts, so to speak,
12:53 and work beyond that.
12:56 I'm not talking about advanced messages or anything like that.
13:01 With "Peace, peace," it's just like I said,
13:05 it's just simple things that cause a lot of change.
13:09 And they're just simple things,
13:12 a word that means something completely different in the context,
13:16 but it's pronounced the same,
13:18 and that of course leads to misunderstandings.
13:21 That's the negative aspect of the whole thing.
13:25 But basically, they're always simple gestures
13:28 that I believe can make you feel life in all its facets
13:38 or lead you directly to it, or in a filtered way.
13:42 Yes, and if we look at this sculpture, for example,
13:47 you chose a title for it.
13:51 What was the reason for that?
13:53 Or is it joy and horror at the same time?
13:56 I see joy and horror at the same time.
13:59 There's this polarity again between
14:02 "it can go well, it can go badly."
14:06 It's an energy story,
14:09 in a way, it's an energy-intensive affair,
14:14 and energy can always be used in this way and that way.
14:17 Yes.
14:19 This energy, where do you get it from?
14:24 From different aspects, or from different...
14:29 I'm out a lot, in nature.
14:32 I have a daughter, and then I was lucky
14:38 to have contact with her in the Catholic Church.
14:42 And of course, for the visual language,
14:45 it was the best school, for me, I'd say.
14:49 And of course, in art history,
14:52 I also had a long time in Latin,
14:55 and then I had all the classics.
14:58 I learned more about art history in school
15:01 than later at the Academy.
15:04 Yes, you had a good art teacher, I suppose.
15:08 A good Latin teacher.
15:10 Yes, a Latin teacher.
15:12 You had a sculpture on the Feldberg,
15:15 on the Bellchen, a large sculpture.
15:18 Can you tell us a little bit about that?
15:21 Because you have a lot to do with Catholicism,
15:24 and it's going in the direction
15:26 that you're drawing from nature, so to speak,
15:29 or that you're engaging in a dialogue with nature.
15:33 Well, with Catholicism, I just mentioned it
15:37 because you asked, and because it always comes up again.
15:41 And it's actually the case that I...
15:44 Because I'm with both...
15:46 My father is Protestant, and my mother is Catholic.
15:49 I got to know both.
15:51 And of course, I chose the Catholic one
15:54 because it's more exciting.
15:56 Because with the Gospels, it was like in school.
15:59 More pictorial.
16:01 And so to speak, the space that is given to the mystery,
16:05 the...
16:07 I always found that exciting.
16:09 So that's where you started to talk to sculptures,
16:13 or they talk to you.
16:15 This dialogue-like basis,
16:17 and the basis is always the opposite
16:20 that I prefer.
16:22 So I put objects in opposition to myself.
16:27 So, so to speak, the two ends of a pole that...
16:32 They're dialogues that I start with myself.
16:35 You would otherwise say monologues,
16:37 but a monologue would only be if I knew what would come out of it.
16:41 So if I already knew the result,
16:43 but I'm actually trying to do things...
16:45 I live in the countryside,
16:47 and I live a monastic life.
16:50 So I have to create the dialogue-partnerships myself.
16:55 I always found it very admirable
16:57 how you chose your studios.
17:00 And I think you were very influenced by that.
17:03 And you also received a major DAAD scholarship in 2002,
17:09 and you were in Los Angeles for a long time.
17:12 And I think that influenced your life,
17:15 just like I did,
17:17 when you moved to Mauchen,
17:20 which is the opposite of LA.
17:23 It's a small vineyard.
17:25 You had reasons for that, didn't you?
17:29 There were reasons for that.
17:32 On the one hand, there was...
17:35 I still had an assistant here at the Academy,
17:39 but that was over.
17:41 And I was always on the move,
17:43 I was in the French Switzerland,
17:45 for private reasons.
17:47 And then they said,
17:49 I always wanted to go to the Maghreb country.
17:52 And I realized that the Maghreb country,
17:55 if there was something like LA in Germany,
17:58 then it would be there.
18:00 Because topographically,
18:02 you have the plain,
18:04 you have the width of the plain.
18:07 And in Los Angeles,
18:09 or this width that you have in this city,
18:12 it's like a huge campsite.
18:14 And then this sea.
18:16 And that's exactly why sculpture and painting,
18:20 everything there,
18:22 no matter what you put in front of this horizon,
18:26 becomes plastic.
18:28 And this Maghreb country,
18:30 on the one hand, of course, the Bougais,
18:33 on the other hand, the Black Forest,
18:36 down to the Burgund.
18:38 This width,
18:40 I actually also have this Californian feeling
18:43 a little bit.
18:45 And you also drive an hour to Zurich
18:48 or half an hour to Basel.
18:50 And that's how long you drive in Los Angeles
18:52 to get to the next quarter.
18:54 So I said, if you're already going back to the province,
18:57 then right.
18:58 And that was a good decision.
19:00 But now it's there too,
19:02 the climate is changing.
19:05 Exactly.
19:06 Yes.
19:07 Then it's like this.
19:11 You've had a few exhibitions
19:15 and you've been to Los Angeles again and again.
19:19 You just got back from there.
19:22 And you will, as far as I can see,
19:24 at the end of the year, in the fall,
19:26 a big exhibition.
19:28 On October 18th.
19:30 Please tell us a little more about it.
19:33 How is it when you suddenly work in a completely different context?
19:38 Even if you say that Mauchen is the same as L.A.
19:41 But I guess.
19:43 No, it's not the same.
19:45 Of course it's not.
19:47 But of course there are correspondences,
19:49 and more than you think.
19:51 Because for me it was not an option
19:53 to go from Munich to Berlin.
19:55 I didn't really like Berlin.
20:00 I moved to Los Angeles.
20:03 And I found it there,
20:05 this openness,
20:07 I found it inspiring there.
20:09 It was a plastic decision,
20:11 also a sculptural decision,
20:13 if you will.
20:15 And with Los Angeles,
20:17 I didn't mention it before,
20:19 it's absolutely motivating
20:21 or an inspiration there.
20:23 I've been in contact with it for over 20 years,
20:26 also with one friend,
20:28 and he invited me a few times,
20:30 he said, "I should finally do something here."
20:33 And I said, "Yes, as soon as I have an atelier,
20:36 I would do something there or a gallery."
20:38 And he's not just a collector now,
20:40 but he also opens a gallery
20:42 and invited me twice
20:45 to work in a great atelier.
20:48 And now there's a big body of work
20:52 that's been created.
20:54 And they're being shown there now.
20:56 Yes, I mean,
20:58 you can see it in your paintings
21:00 when you come back from Los Angeles.
21:02 I think the color palette
21:04 is a little more
21:06 blue and yellow.
21:08 I see something like that,
21:10 do you see it yourself
21:12 or do you leave it to the art historians
21:14 to interpret it?
21:16 Do you think that from there
21:18 you often bring in
21:20 this humorous lightness
21:22 into the pictures?
21:24 What humorous lightness?
21:26 Yes, I think in some ways
21:28 "die and know"
21:30 to put it in such a form
21:32 that it fits into two speech bubbles,
21:34 that's already a lightness.
21:36 But to be honest,
21:38 it's already totally old.
21:40 I had already done it here at the Academy
21:42 as a sculpture once,
21:44 with such huge speech bubbles.
21:46 And somehow it came to me again
21:48 that I had only taken
21:50 such small woodpecker.
21:52 I've always enjoyed it,
21:54 also in the sculpting,
21:56 to have the view from above,
21:58 like a model.
22:00 As if you build a model landscape
22:02 and look at yourself from above.
22:04 Then life itself
22:06 becomes humorous,
22:08 no matter what situation you are in.
22:10 That was always
22:12 such a certain motivation.
22:14 So, this game with dimensions,
22:16 that's what I've always been interested in.
22:18 And the other game
22:20 that you are pushing very far
22:22 is that with the balance.
22:24 Balance always has something to do
22:26 with whether you stand or fall.
22:28 That's a classic topic,
22:30 Paul Klee or so,
22:32 or Max Beckmann,
22:34 who have always quoted it,
22:36 that a rope dancer has to balance it out.
22:38 Is that a general attitude
22:40 to life for you
22:42 or is it more like painting
22:44 that you see it in a compositional way?
22:46 I think it's a general attitude to life.
22:48 I mean, everyone is fine
22:50 with trying to find the right measure.
22:52 And of course,
22:54 when you go on a journey
22:56 and somehow put yourself
22:58 in the way of an object
23:00 or a pillar,
23:02 then of course you have to,
23:04 maybe it's that
23:06 I constantly have to
23:08 in these small formats
23:10 or on these small playing fields,
23:12 I also balance it out every time.
23:14 So I throw myself in there
23:16 and I think to myself,
23:18 you can't do that nowadays,
23:20 somehow to sit in front of such a canvas
23:22 and then a little color,
23:24 that's not possible.
23:26 And then I had to do it
23:28 so that I put all the effort
23:30 into it.
23:32 And it took a while
23:34 to allow certain things
23:36 or to carry them out
23:38 like that.
23:40 And of course it's always about
23:42 how the objects sit,
23:44 or how can I do that?
23:46 And although it's always
23:48 the same formats
23:50 and also in this case,
23:52 so now up there
23:54 and always the same process,
23:56 very different things come out.
23:58 And,
24:00 but I believe
24:02 that they are still
24:04 carried by a commonality.
24:06 So not only that I did them,
24:08 but that they
24:10 are always,
24:12 as they say, there is one truth,
24:14 but it has an infinite number of faces.
24:16 I think that's what it's all about.
24:18 Well, let's stay with the balance
24:20 because I notice
24:22 there is a common motif with you
24:24 and that is the helmet.
24:26 The helmet is at the same time,
24:28 of course it's a protection,
24:30 but it can also be interpreted differently.
24:32 You actually only wear it
24:34 when you really expect
24:36 a violent effect.
24:38 So it has both sides.
24:40 This need for protection,
24:42 what does it mean for you?
24:44 What does need for protection mean?
24:46 It's not the need for protection,
24:48 but it's actually more like
24:50 the willingness to take risks.
24:52 I would rather see that.
24:54 So it's actually more the break-up.
24:56 And where you put on helmets,
24:58 something happens.
25:00 I always found it fascinating
25:02 whether it's the fire brigade
25:04 or wherever,
25:06 when helmets are worn,
25:08 you know there is someone
25:10 who is on the way
25:12 where something could happen.
25:14 And that's exciting at first.
25:16 Yes.
25:18 And then there are often
25:20 the couple relationships with you.
25:22 I see these two right now.
25:24 How would you call them?
25:26 They don't see it right now.
25:28 Everything up there are two rockets.
25:30 You could also call them...
25:32 They also have something like fish,
25:34 but rather rockets.
25:36 They don't start, do they?
25:38 No, they don't start.
25:40 They are still talking.
25:42 So dialogue is something else
25:44 that I find often with you.
25:46 Yes.
25:48 What does dialogue mean to you?
25:50 Dialogue is, I think,
25:52 what everything happens to.
25:54 Yes.
25:56 Yes.
25:58 So you can't do it alone.
26:00 You always have to have someone
26:02 opposite to you.
26:04 And whether it's a canvas
26:06 or a piece of styrofoam,
26:08 the challenge is to deal
26:10 with it differently.
26:12 But it's about dialogue.
26:14 I think that's the most important thing.
26:16 It's the way you get to know the world.
26:18 And that takes you further, so to speak.
26:20 Yes.
26:22 We also had a lot of dialogues.
26:24 I have to say,
26:26 you have influenced me significantly
26:28 in perceiving art history.
26:30 I come from the classical modern.
26:32 I'm a classical art historian,
26:34 Verkirchner, Heckel,
26:36 Schiele, Klimt, and so on.
26:38 But you were an ideal
26:40 partner for this,
26:42 because you simply embodied
26:44 the other view.
26:46 Artists see it more from the inside.
26:48 They suddenly know what the artist
26:50 was thinking.
26:52 You could explain to me
26:54 how an artist sees space,
26:56 which Schiele, for example,
26:58 who paints more flat,
27:00 sees more flat.
27:02 The same was true of the colors
27:04 we discussed so much
27:06 in the classical modern,
27:08 especially with Kirchner.
27:10 A red comes forward,
27:12 a blue goes back.
27:14 Is that a crucial question for you
27:16 when you create?
27:18 Or is it so in flesh and blood
27:20 that you create intuitively?
27:22 How do you go about it?
27:24 Do you draw?
27:26 Do you have a sketch?
27:28 I make sure I let it run.
27:30 But of course,
27:32 when you let it run,
27:34 it's clear that you make mistakes
27:36 or that things go wrong
27:38 that I don't want to let stand.
27:40 And then it goes on.
27:42 But then I don't stop.
27:44 I think to myself,
27:46 "It's not sitting yet
27:48 or it's too flat."
27:50 Then the cutlery box
27:52 is unpacked
27:54 and the sculptural instrument
27:56 is taken out.
27:58 Then the scissors are taken out.
28:00 These works here
28:02 are also cut out.
28:04 This is canvas on canvas.
28:06 These were other pictures.
28:08 These were small pictures.
28:10 Also here,
28:12 the boxing girl.
28:14 That was a single picture
28:16 and the figure next to it
28:18 was also a single picture
28:20 in that format,
28:22 but that didn't fit.
28:24 So I took the scissors
28:26 and cut them out.
28:28 Then I just gave them space
28:30 and then it was clear
28:32 what they had to do with each other.
28:34 It actually goes on and on.
28:36 You can see it very well
28:38 in the videos above.
28:40 They are from different times.
28:42 I work my way through the materials.
28:44 There is a video called
28:46 "Walk the Line"
28:48 where I work like on bridge pillars.
28:50 The artistic work.
28:52 You look around
28:54 but only to take it
28:56 and put it in front of you.
28:58 Then you go one step further.
29:00 The bridge is not built,
29:02 but always the bridge pillars.
29:04 I go over it with the bridge pillars.
29:06 I had these blocks of styrofoam
29:08 in the studio.
29:10 Then I made this video
29:12 and then I made sculptures
29:14 from some styrofoam parts.
29:16 Or from these big blocks.
29:18 Then I just
29:20 dug through them.
29:22 Then I made this video
29:24 how I stand as a living pillar
29:26 that then bursts.
29:28 Then there was another video
29:30 how I then
29:32 cut these things up.
29:34 Like small stones.
29:36 There is also a rhythm.
29:38 Sometimes the things
29:40 are really worked through
29:42 until nothing more.
29:44 And of course there is always
29:46 something flying.
29:48 But I usually manage it.
29:50 One thing leads to the next.
29:52 Yes.
29:54 But you have to start.
29:56 And that's always with small steps.
29:58 I find it very exciting
30:00 that you start.
30:02 That you don't see this white canvas
30:04 as something
30:06 that has to be painted
30:08 all the time.
30:10 You take your cosmos
30:12 to keep on
30:14 re-discussing.
30:16 And the dialogue is
30:18 between your individual works
30:20 that can then merge into one.
30:22 Yes.
30:24 When I see this bearer of the world
30:26 here, then at the same time
30:28 he also has devil's horns.
30:30 That's the question.
30:32 Whether he carries the world
30:34 or whether he hangs on it.
30:36 You can also turn it around
30:38 and then there is the head.
30:40 In this respect, it is always both.
30:42 And the horns.
30:44 Yes, he also has horns.
30:46 But he also has that.
30:48 That's how humans are.
30:50 Excuse me?
30:52 That's how humans are.
30:54 I think
30:56 he's also called Puck.
30:58 And he also has something demonic.
31:00 And the horns.
31:02 I just
31:04 let it look a little more plastic.
31:06 I just cut off his fingers.
31:08 And then I thought to him,
31:10 I'm not going to throw them away now.
31:12 Then he gets horns.
31:14 Yes, now we have the reuse.
31:16 We wouldn't have come to that,
31:18 I think.
31:20 That's a secret you just revealed.
31:22 There are floating people
31:24 with you and there are those
31:26 who have ground adhesion.
31:28 Then I always see the fight.
31:30 So the boxing gloves are
31:32 next to the helmet, another motif
31:34 that always appears.
31:36 And what does that mean for you?
31:38 And I also see the hood
31:40 again and again in the film.
31:42 With this helmet,
31:44 with this archaic
31:46 hood, with which you
31:48 walk up against the house walls,
31:50 against the castle walls.
31:52 In which direction
31:54 can we think of that?
31:56 You can think in different directions.
31:58 It has to do with Fang, the hat.
32:00 It's a game character,
32:02 with the Kaspar figures.
32:04 And the fight
32:06 or the aggressive
32:08 is in its original
32:10 meaning.
32:12 I mean,
32:14 this wind channel video
32:16 that you quoted,
32:18 that's nothing more than a certain
32:20 aggression, an approach.
32:22 There is the aggression.
32:24 You always have this opposite.
32:26 In the actual sense, I mean the approach.
32:28 And it's not always clear
32:30 what comes out of it.
32:32 But when you approach,
32:34 it's a posture, so to speak.
32:36 It's like
32:38 you don't let the
32:40 thought or the fear
32:42 arise, but just go through it.
32:44 It's the attitude.
32:46 Yes, this fear-free.
32:48 How is it for an artist?
32:50 Is there sometimes the fear
32:52 of failure or the fear
32:54 of failure? I remember
32:56 when you were with us outside in the Pennsberg Museum,
32:58 there was the Giacometti exhibition,
33:00 where I learned a lot from you again.
33:02 Namely, to see this process again
33:04 and to see that Giacometti
33:06 was exposed to permanent failure
33:08 and that this
33:10 kept driving him.
33:12 How is it for you at work?
33:14 Is it something you
33:16 solve by saying,
33:18 "Well, then it stays there
33:20 and I'll use it at another time
33:22 again"? Or does a picture
33:24 have to be finished for you?
33:26 Well, let's put it this way.
33:28 I always have to
33:30 be up to something.
33:32 But
33:34 with failure,
33:36 it's usually
33:38 a wrong
33:40 way of thinking,
33:42 I would say.
33:44 It always goes on,
33:46 but you always get to this point
33:48 where you don't know
33:50 how to get to the next moment.
33:52 You know that from real life,
33:54 so to speak.
33:56 But it always goes on.
33:58 The interesting thing is
34:00 that it's just little gestures
34:02 that carry you on.
34:04 Just little gestures
34:06 that all of a sudden
34:08 steer you
34:10 in a completely different direction.
34:12 I think that's the exciting thing.
34:14 And I think that's
34:16 the potency of art,
34:18 that you can
34:20 achieve it
34:22 with the simplest means
34:24 that you can get
34:26 yourself back
34:28 from a certain distance
34:30 or that you can pull yourself
34:32 from a certain distance.
34:34 And maybe with a certain sense of humour.
34:36 You put everything
34:38 into it, but it comes out
34:40 in a different way.
34:42 And that has something liberating.
34:44 Ideally, you just get amazed
34:46 again. Because in the end,
34:48 you've already hit the bull's-eye.
34:50 You live, and that's it.
34:52 Yes.
34:54 You started
34:56 to enter the art
34:58 in the year 1000.
35:00 And the year 1000
35:02 actually means
35:04 increasing digitization.
35:06 And you never
35:08 neglected
35:10 that you included the digital image
35:12 in your pictures.
35:14 You stayed true
35:16 to yourself
35:18 as a sculptor and painter.
35:20 Was that a very conscious decision
35:22 or did you sometimes
35:24 play with the thought
35:26 to take something
35:28 from real life
35:30 in this flood of images?
35:32 Or was it always important to you
35:34 that you were the chooser?
35:36 Well,
35:38 I tried to
35:40 do that. In 2007,
35:42 I worked with a body scan
35:44 and I had a 3D model
35:46 of a sculpture milled out.
35:48 And of course,
35:50 I tried it out.
35:52 For me,
35:54 the result was good.
35:56 But I never...
35:58 If something is too perfect,
36:00 there are no more niches
36:02 to nest in. And then you can't
36:04 love it. I didn't like it.
36:06 It stays cold.
36:08 If the surface is too perfect,
36:10 I never cared.
36:12 I like it with some things.
36:14 With design,
36:16 but for art
36:18 or for that,
36:20 I need the possibility
36:22 to nest in.
36:24 Or to transfer it into a model.
36:26 And that's why
36:28 with digital,
36:30 I like to move around
36:32 and I find it difficult
36:34 to sit in front of the computer
36:36 for too long.
36:38 Yes.
36:40 I see in your paintings
36:42 a spatiality
36:44 that doesn't seem at first glance,
36:46 but is still produced.
36:48 We have the whole space.
36:50 But I also think
36:52 that here we have
36:54 the empty space where
36:56 the person becomes the falling one.
36:58 What view do you have
37:00 of space, of spatiality
37:02 and of the world?
37:04 I remember a word you said.
37:06 You were a service-refusal.
37:08 And basically,
37:10 you took care of many patients.
37:12 And whenever you entered
37:14 a new space,
37:16 the stage setting
37:18 or a whole structure,
37:20 a complex work,
37:22 that you look into,
37:24 because you are suddenly
37:26 confronted with the life
37:28 of someone.
37:30 What does space mean
37:32 and what does image mean for you?
37:34 I wasn't a service-refusal,
37:36 I was a civil servant.
37:38 Yes, sorry.
37:40 And in that case,
37:42 it was a very rich time
37:44 when I worked in the hospital.
37:46 And it was actually
37:48 that behind it,
37:50 I did my Abitur there
37:52 and a week and a half later
37:54 I started.
37:56 I didn't do a world tour
37:58 but the world tour took place
38:00 in the hospital,
38:02 because behind every door
38:04 was a completely different cosmos.
38:06 A cross-section through society,
38:08 through all age groups,
38:10 all social classes
38:12 were represented there.
38:14 And of course,
38:16 as a civil servant,
38:18 I got in touch
38:20 with them much faster,
38:22 because I didn't have
38:24 a very precise schedule
38:26 like the nurses and nurses,
38:28 but I was sometimes sent there
38:30 if you need a little more time
38:32 or something.
38:34 And that was a cosmos
38:36 that never really left me,
38:38 because behind every door
38:40 was a cosmos that told
38:42 about your whole life.
38:44 And you were also
38:46 confronted with death.
38:48 And I found that exciting.
38:50 So this corridor
38:52 with the same doors
38:54 and behind every door, completely.
38:56 Yes, because such memories
38:58 are also very striking.
39:00 That was very striking.
39:02 Because I think that sometimes
39:04 you also have this cosmos,
39:06 that you pick one thing out
39:08 and you have it as a representative
39:10 for a cosmos that you could
39:12 imagine behind it.
39:14 In this respect, there are also pictures
39:16 that almost remind you of a film still.
39:18 What does dream
39:20 and surrealism mean to you?
39:22 Is that something
39:24 stimulating or is it something
39:26 that automatically
39:28 comes into your language?
39:30 It's not often
39:32 that I can remember
39:34 the dreams, but
39:36 of course I find these dream pictures,
39:38 this possibility that everything is possible,
39:40 fascinating.
39:42 Yes, so the dream is
39:44 the expanded space.
39:46 Yes, so everything is possible.
39:48 And on pictures,
39:50 that's the beauty of pictures,
39:52 the imaginary,
39:54 that you can imagine everything
39:56 there, so to speak.
39:58 And even if it is always reduced,
40:00 it is actually very sculptural.
40:02 The figures are always in the foreground.
40:04 Exactly, so I am also
40:06 the sculptor.
40:08 I think
40:10 it shows itself.
40:12 If we look at this picture
40:14 that hangs above us
40:16 here,
40:18 can you describe to us
40:20 how it came about,
40:22 why the process
40:24 developed?
40:26 Because you see a chair
40:28 on the one hand, then four legs,
40:30 which may be part of the chair,
40:32 then this helmet in it,
40:34 the two eyes looking into the distance,
40:36 which also make contact a bit.
40:38 And yet there is such a loss
40:42 to feel there, but still
40:44 still an energy.
40:46 Yes, that's actually
40:50 how the other pictures also emerged.
40:52 So I've seen less of a chair
40:54 in there than more of a table
40:56 or a wing or something.
40:58 And that was a strange
41:00 picture. I liked it,
41:02 but somehow it was too strange for me.
41:04 And the picture
41:06 with this head was also somehow ...
41:08 I cut it apart too.
41:10 And then I glued
41:12 one picture on it completely.
41:14 So that's cast,
41:16 that's with acrylic.
41:18 So not only glued, but really cast.
41:20 And the head
41:22 came with it.
41:24 It is above the original picture.
41:26 And then suddenly the picture was in the picture
41:28 and what comes to you.
41:30 And that somehow opened up
41:32 a new space.
41:34 I see you work a lot
41:38 with collage. As an art historian,
41:40 I of course go the other way
41:42 and say, well, maybe we are
41:44 in such a post-Dada story.
41:46 I don't think you would
41:48 disagree with me now
41:50 that you combine such unusual things
41:52 without the same
41:54 sensuality, but
41:56 that rather the statement is
41:58 that the viewer is free
42:00 to feel something.
42:02 Do you want to steer the viewer a little
42:04 or do you want to give him
42:06 complete freedom?
42:08 Well, a sensuality.
42:10 It definitely has a sensuality
42:12 somehow, I think.
42:14 And then
42:16 whether it is collages now,
42:18 I don't know if that's the
42:20 fundamental principle or if it's much more
42:22 the sculptural principle of cutting.
42:24 I just cut out the shape
42:26 and then insert it again.
42:28 I think it comes more from the sculptural
42:30 that I have a shape
42:32 and then just give it
42:34 the corresponding space.
42:36 And this creates a certain lyric
42:38 because you combine different elements
42:40 that are known to us.
42:42 I couldn't have imagined that in the picture.
42:44 It was created in the doing.
42:46 And I think that's
42:48 an important aspect
42:50 of the whole.
42:52 Faith, love, hope
42:54 are the classic themes of painting.
42:56 Oh, yes?
42:58 Yes, I don't say it easily
43:00 with artists.
43:02 Art historians.
43:04 You are often questioned.
43:06 I think they are
43:08 already at home with you.
43:10 You also said earlier
43:12 what religion means,
43:14 that it is also an exciting factor
43:16 for art.
43:18 Depending, yes.
43:20 And the love of people
43:22 can also be felt here.
43:24 You see that they get along
43:26 or you also thematize
43:28 that they don't get along.
43:30 Is that a bit of a call
43:32 against aggression
43:34 or
43:36 caution with aggression?
43:38 No, I don't make such calls.
43:48 If you were to give me
43:50 as an art historian
43:52 something on the way,
43:54 what would you say to me?
43:56 As an art historian?
43:58 Assuming I were to write
44:00 an article about you,
44:02 what would you say to me?
44:04 About these things here?
44:06 Yes, about this hanging.
44:08 That might be interesting.
44:10 The hanging here is something special.
44:12 Because it was very important to Marco
44:14 that the flood of images
44:16 was drawn in here.
44:18 But there is a principle.
44:20 There is a ribbon down here
44:22 and a ribbon up here
44:24 that goes all the way over here.
44:26 And then there are pieces
44:28 that behave airy again.
44:30 You had a lot of thoughts about it.
44:32 Maybe you would like to add something?
44:34 Well, in the end...
44:36 Is it a film sequence?
44:42 A rhythmic sequence, definitely.
44:44 Of course, individual images
44:46 together
44:48 give a story.
44:50 In this case,
44:52 there is an impression
44:54 of a posture,
44:56 how I work.
44:58 It was important to me
45:00 that a certain power
45:02 comes over.
45:04 A certain density,
45:06 a certain output
45:08 that takes place.
45:10 And of course,
45:12 there are different aspects.
45:14 I also play with the room.
45:16 How do you get the room under control?
45:18 Up here,
45:20 there is the bridge.
45:22 It's like a ship.
45:24 Here we have an anchor.
45:26 Up there is the captain.
45:28 Inside the bridge,
45:30 you can see the videos.
45:32 They are like the dashboard
45:34 of my work.
45:36 That's how I work.
45:38 That's how I make the sculptures.
45:40 Of course, we also have
45:42 the different windows,
45:44 the different cabins
45:46 with the different lives
45:48 behind them.
45:50 That's how it is.
45:52 That's how a play is.
45:54 But in the end,
45:56 it's about the visual-historical play.
45:58 It's clear that the room
46:00 with its beauty
46:02 and its special features
46:04 has to be under control.
46:06 I see it that way.
46:08 I think it's a success.
46:10 Yes, it's a very good success.
46:12 I think we're
46:14 slowly coming to an end.
46:16 Yes.
46:18 But as I said,
46:20 you can give me something
46:22 if I write something about you.
46:24 Yes, but I can't say that
46:26 in public.
46:28 And then I would say
46:30 we open the conversation
46:32 to the outside world
46:34 so that you can
46:36 ask Marco Schuller questions.
46:38 And then I thank you
46:40 very much.
46:42 But I thank you anyway.
46:44 I really learned a lot from you.
46:46 Yes, I thank you
46:48 because you made the contact
46:50 with Linda Benke.
46:52 And that's why we're here.
46:54 Exactly.
46:56 Are there any questions?
46:58 Sorry.
47:00 No.
47:02 And first of all
47:04 I have a picture
47:06 at your home.
47:08 I saw it
47:10 earlier.
47:12 It's hanging on a special place,
47:14 not in the living room.
47:16 And I'll tell you
47:18 it's like this.
47:20 You're sitting in the bathroom
47:22 and the picture is hanging across.
47:24 It's about this big.
47:26 It doesn't contain any figures.
47:28 But on the picture
47:30 is written
47:32 a letter
47:34 which is like
47:36 a letter from an
47:38 October party.
47:40 It has a lamp
47:42 and it's flashing.
47:44 And on the picture
47:46 it's written
47:48 I apologize
47:50 for the form
47:52 but not for the content.
47:54 Three exclamation marks.
47:56 Four or five.
47:58 Six.
48:00 It's really loud.
48:02 And I like it
48:04 so much.
48:06 And I thought
48:08 that's Marko.
48:10 But tell me
48:12 if I'm right.
48:14 How do you see it?
48:16 You're talking
48:18 from a box.
48:20 And the picture
48:22 is hanging
48:24 where it's hanging
48:26 and not here.
48:28 And in this respect
48:30 What was your question?
48:34 I see something in it.
48:36 It's this energy.
48:38 Yes, I see something in it too.
48:40 But I'm not allowed to see it.
48:42 No, no.
48:44 I'd like to hear it again.
48:46 Because I think
48:48 you have the letter
48:50 in it again and again.
48:52 But this picture is only
48:54 made of letters.
48:56 Yes, it's painted.
48:58 It's a poster.
49:00 It's loud, just like
49:02 the motifs with the figures.
49:04 But
49:06 there's a crucial statement in it.
49:08 It's a philosophy,
49:10 as they say.
49:12 I apologize if something stupid happens.
49:14 I apologize for the form
49:16 but not for the content.
49:18 Yes.
49:20 What we see now.
49:22 It happens to me again and again
49:24 that you choose
49:26 the wrong forms
49:28 or the
49:30 inappropriate forms
49:32 or in the wrong
49:34 relationship.
49:36 But in the end
49:38 it's not like that.
49:40 It's a bit too much
49:42 but actually...
49:44 But how would you draw it on the picture?
49:46 It would be really bad.
49:48 Yes, why?
49:50 A very clear content
49:52 and a clear form.
49:54 I apologize for the form
49:56 but not for the content.
49:58 In this case
50:00 it was about
50:02 a personal matter
50:04 and that's why I hung it
50:06 on one of the most
50:08 intimate places.
50:10 So I would
50:12 now...
50:14 We have to talk about it privately.
50:16 I think it's
50:18 the right place for the E-Fest.
50:20 It's not a gallery
50:22 which is something completely different.
50:24 Yes.
50:26 The intimacy
50:28 is what's important.
50:30 It's something very personal.
50:32 Yes, and that's
50:34 the advantage of pictures
50:36 that you
50:38 on the one hand
50:40 clearly see what's going on
50:42 but
50:44 that you also
50:46 don't always
50:48 have the opportunity
50:50 to express it directly.
50:52 It's a manual.
50:56 You always talk about it.
50:58 Yes, but you have to say
51:00 that I give the manual
51:02 to myself.
51:04 As you said before
51:06 it's like I give it to someone else.
51:08 Well, it wasn't a manual
51:10 but a piece of advice
51:12 you asked me to give.
51:14 That's a difference
51:16 between a manual
51:18 and a piece of advice.
51:20 It's something
51:22 I give to myself
51:24 because
51:26 I have to
51:28 motivate myself
51:30 to do the next thing.
51:32 It's sometimes absurd.
51:34 When I'm having a dialogue
51:38 between you two
51:40 I notice that I have two artists
51:42 from Penzberg.
51:44 Their works are in Penzberg.
51:46 Yours is in the public space
51:48 and yours too.
51:50 Within 200 meters
51:52 there's my museum.
51:54 These are two very beautiful works
51:58 that can be seen out there.
52:00 "Dein Esel" and "Die verspiegelte Münze"
52:02 in front of the Spararkasse.
52:04 Wonderful.
52:06 I reflect myself in it every day
52:08 because you can't get around
52:10 when you pass by.
52:12 I just asked you about the joke
52:14 in your work.
52:16 There are many jokes
52:18 in your work.
52:20 For example, the idea of a cruise
52:22 that you showed me
52:24 with anchor and captain
52:26 and the gap where you look out.
52:28 That's a joke, of course.
52:30 You see a different kind of joke
52:32 in every picture.
52:34 It's macabre, sometimes
52:36 impenetrable, sometimes
52:38 very direct.
52:40 I think you do it with jokes.
52:42 Is that your subject?
52:44 No, not jokes.
52:48 If so, humor.
52:50 I would make a big difference
52:52 there.
52:54 Humor is the right ratio
52:56 of bodily fluids.
52:58 Humus.
53:00 We're back to the topic
53:02 of the right measure.
53:04 Humor is the right ratio
53:06 of bodily fluids.
53:08 Humor is the right ratio
53:10 and that it is shot
53:12 in different directions.
53:14 That's clear.
53:16 Because somewhere
53:18 you have to look
53:22 where you get a grip.
53:24 In the empty space
53:26 sometimes you have to
53:28 work out the grips.
53:30 They are not always clear.
53:32 Accordingly,
53:36 there are many things
53:38 that are reworked
53:40 and reworked again.
53:42 Or some are
53:44 sieved out.
53:46 I have two questions.
53:50 The video work
53:52 is relatively old.
53:54 Have you ever
53:56 recorded videos?
53:58 I would be interested
54:00 why.
54:02 Because you said
54:04 it was your art form.
54:06 I'm not trying it out.
54:08 I'm doing it as an art form
54:10 because I have it
54:12 on my legs.
54:14 The second thing
54:16 is that in the motifs
54:18 dream and humor have already sounded.
54:20 When I look at the pictures
54:22 in many cases it is a very childish
54:24 language.
54:26 In the sense that it speaks
54:28 very well to children.
54:30 For example, I could imagine
54:32 a children's book
54:34 or develop a picture
54:36 from a book.
54:38 With what is involved,
54:40 with the different figures
54:42 and the puzzling in it.
54:44 Is it a coincidence
54:46 and does it come into your work
54:48 with other topics?
54:50 Or does it have a certain background?
54:52 The first question
54:54 with the videos.
54:56 I still do.
54:58 But as I said,
55:00 it shows
55:02 how I find my occasions.
55:04 How I define the place.
55:06 I see this tree, for example.
55:08 That was always on the way
55:10 to my atelier.
55:12 I said, "Now you build up the camera
55:14 and climb over it."
55:16 I didn't even know if it would hold.
55:18 Or whether it would move
55:20 so beautifully into the picture
55:22 and out again.
55:24 I didn't know either.
55:26 These are always
55:28 as if you were playing a trick.
55:30 Or something you don't do.
55:32 I'm always alone.
55:34 I don't want anyone to watch me.
55:36 It's always a bit like
55:38 you're doing something illegal.
55:40 Before we talked about it,
55:42 we talked about Rebecca Horn
55:44 with Heinrich.
55:46 I had read an interview with her
55:48 and she had just spoken
55:50 about Jean Genet,
55:52 about a picture
55:54 that she had taken
55:56 and she had also spoken
55:58 about Jean Genet,
56:00 about the Diary of a Lover.
56:02 I was fascinated by it
56:04 because Jean Genet
56:06 had described an outbreak
56:08 that he had made.
56:10 He was a criminal
56:12 and he had written beautifully.
56:14 That always influenced me
56:16 because he said
56:18 that at that moment
56:20 he was absolutely present.
56:22 The light was off,
56:24 the noise was perceived.
56:26 I think it's called mindfulness today.
56:28 At that time you had to break in
56:30 and now everything is open.
56:32 That's what always interested me
56:34 in these videos,
56:36 actually also in the works
56:38 when I go to them.
56:40 I still make the videos,
56:42 but not anymore
56:44 in the density
56:46 as I had done it.
56:48 And the childish,
56:50 I think that was always
56:52 in my works.
56:54 Because an occasion for me
56:56 was always the game
56:58 with the scales.
57:00 So I always
57:02 understood art
57:04 or sculpture as a model.
57:06 You can show it
57:08 quite well at that moment.
57:10 If there is a form,
57:12 it may not be so interesting.
57:14 But at the moment
57:16 when you put a model figure next to it,
57:18 it suddenly becomes a huge building
57:20 or something very small.
57:22 This much bigger or much smaller
57:24 always interested me.
57:26 And in between the whole thing moves.
57:28 And the childish
57:30 has of course
57:32 the playful character
57:34 and that it partly also
57:36 takes on these forms.
57:38 That has a very clear occasion.
57:42 I actually started that
57:44 in the USA.
57:46 Because I
57:48 was in a crisis
57:50 and didn't know
57:52 what to do.
57:54 And I said to myself
57:56 "What would you never do here in Munich?"
57:58 And then I actually made drawings
58:00 of such small figures.
58:02 But I cut them out
58:04 and then I carved them.
58:06 I made a really heavy anchor
58:08 so that I don't run away again.
58:10 And so it is of course
58:12 always a game with yourself.
58:14 I think you have the feeling
58:16 that what is in you
58:18 has not changed since childhood.
58:20 Aspects came to it.
58:22 And then I have a big
58:24 my consultant
58:26 who is talking here somewhere.
58:28 She tells me very clearly
58:32 also with some things
58:34 "Dad, do it again in the big one."
58:36 Or does she do it like that?
58:38 I listen to her too.
58:40 It's clear.
58:42 Are there any more questions?
58:44 Then thank you
58:46 for your attention.
58:48 And thank you, dear Marco,
58:50 that I was allowed to ask you
58:52 so many questions.
58:54 And yes,
58:56 otherwise we wish you
58:58 a lot of fun with the pictures.
59:00 And stay a little longer.
59:02 Also watch the videos.
59:04 And you can buy them.
59:06 Exactly.
59:08 [Applause]
59:10 [Applause]
59:12 [APPLAUSE]
59:15 [APPLAUSE]