MotorTrend's Ed Loh & Jonny Lieberman chat with Hagerty CEO
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00:00:00Welcome to The Inevitable, a podcast by Motor Trend.
00:00:04Hi there, and welcome to another episode of The Inevitable.
00:00:19This is the podcast, the vodcast, where we talk about the future of the car,
00:00:23the future of transportation, the future of mobility, the future of insurance.
00:00:27And we'll get to that in a minute, but before then, Ed has a little message for you.
00:00:32The Inevitable Vodcast is brought to you by the all-electric Nissan Ariya,
00:00:36inspired by the future, designed for the now.
00:00:39And yes, I'm Ed Lowe, that's Johnny Lieberman, we're here as always,
00:00:44back from a little bit of a spring break with another episode, and it's a good one.
00:00:48We have our friend and our insurance agent, Mikiel Hagerty, which we'll introduce in just a moment.
00:00:56And we are going to get discounts because of this, right, Ed?
00:00:58Exactly.
00:00:59Right, right, right.
00:01:00But let's go to our question of the episode, which is kind of a follow-up to what we talked about on the last episode.
00:01:07It comes from a guy on Instagram whose name is Doug McIntosh, DoddMac,
00:01:12and he asked a very long compound question about the similarities between Volkswagen vehicle platforms,
00:01:19and he mentions three of them.
00:01:21MEB, Modular Electric Drive Matrix, PPE, Premium Platform Electric,
00:01:27which is the bigger version, more premium, bigger version of MEB,
00:01:31and then what is to be the next generation for Volkswagen vehicles, the Scalable Systems Platform, SSP.
00:01:39And his story is, his question is kind of interesting.
00:01:41Like, hey, as the differences become more and more superficial between these segments,
00:01:51will VW Group prevent me from putting a Taycan motor and battery into the new VW ID.7 via software code?
00:02:02Will they write code that will stop me from doing some sort of wild powertrain swap if I choose to buy this vehicle?
00:02:09And I answered it.
00:02:10I actually said, hey, why don't you just buy a Taycan, like a off-lease, you know, first-gen Taycan.
00:02:16They're at an amazing discount right now.
00:02:18They're still a fantastic drive.
00:02:20In fact, you could argue it's better to drive one now because there's more charging stations than there used to be,
00:02:26and that's the Achilles heel of a Taycan.
00:02:29It's only got, like, about 200 miles of range, because they're great to drive.
00:02:33Why bother?
00:02:34And if you drive them hard, they have about 70 miles of range.
00:02:36Right.
00:02:37Or I suggested to put in a Tesla powertrain if you're going to do anything,
00:02:40because that's the most sort of, that's kind of become like the LS swap.
00:02:44That's the Chevy small block of EVs.
00:02:46Of EV mods.
00:02:47But I also wanted to defer to Johnny here, because I said in the last episode that he's a bit of a VW platform nerd.
00:02:54He likes these modular platforms.
00:02:56Oh, all platforms, not just VW platforms.
00:02:58But, yeah, long story short is, absolutely, you will never be able to do that.
00:03:02They will prevent that.
00:03:03First of all, the Taycan motor won't even be compatible with the MEB.
00:03:09It's so different.
00:03:12Or SSP, I guess, is the new hotness.
00:03:14Yeah.
00:03:16But it's like, do you remember, Ed, years ago, a couple AMG motors showed up in the garage at work.
00:03:24One of them I had assembled.
00:03:26One of them they just mailed to us on accident.
00:03:28So for years, I had a twin turbo V8 AMG motor that I built laying around the shop.
00:03:36And I gave it to lots of people trying to get it to work.
00:03:39And it was like, boy, the engine controller was so complicated that you had to have the right gas cap.
00:03:48The gas cap completed some circuit that let the engine turn on.
00:03:52So, yeah, absolutely not.
00:03:54I mean, that's going to be, the hard part is going to be cracking the software code.
00:03:59And I think, I know with tuning Teslas, no one really is able to extract more power.
00:04:06All the Tesla tuners, and I know we know a bunch of them, they lower the car.
00:04:10They put it on better springs.
00:04:12They put it on better wheels and tires.
00:04:14They remove weight, but they can't touch the powertrain.
00:04:16It's just locked, locked, locked.
00:04:18And you've got to imagine it's going to be just as locked.
00:04:20Now, can somebody crack it?
00:04:22Maybe.
00:04:23Will it be worth it?
00:04:25I don't know.
00:04:26And the other thing is they'll probably just do an ID7R that, you know, is the Audi motor type thing.
00:04:33So, yeah, I just, maybe, you know, but the way it stands now, no, because of compatibility.
00:04:39And then once everything is on the same platform, probably also no, just because they don't, you know.
00:04:45The risk of like, you know, if you're starting to touch those wires that connect to those motors at 380 volts or whatever.
00:04:52Well, I'll do you one better too, which is, this is also kind of breaking news because it came out like two days ago.
00:04:57If you want to do something like reprogram or jump into the code on one of these future Volkswagens,
00:05:03you better learn Chinese because we just found out that they just announced that Xpeng, the Chinese EV manufacturer,
00:05:11was going to be the electrical engineering architecture for future Volkswagen product.
00:05:18Right.
00:05:19You've got to imagine they do that in English though.
00:05:21If you're going to have Germany and China, they're not going to.
00:05:23Well, code is code, right?
00:05:24Yeah, code is in English, yeah.
00:05:26So, you know.
00:05:28Now you were, oh, you made a mistake.
00:05:31You made the Geely comment, but.
00:05:33That's Volvo.
00:05:34Yeah, that's Volvo.
00:05:35Okay.
00:05:36Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:05:37So.
00:05:38That is big news that Volkswagen's partnering with essentially a Chinese startup.
00:05:40Yeah.
00:05:41That's a very successful Chinese startup.
00:05:42Yeah, one that's, I mean, they've been around for, yeah, about 10 years.
00:05:44Five, is it that?
00:05:45Okay.
00:05:46But.
00:05:47That's wild.
00:05:48Future, conversation for a future episode.
00:05:50Right now we want to thank Doug.
00:05:52Thank you, Doug McIntosh for your question.
00:05:55Swag is on the way.
00:05:57In fact, by the time you see this, hopefully you already have it.
00:05:59We got some great stuff coming your way.
00:06:01Hat, maybe some pens, maybe a book.
00:06:04So, if you have a question, please ask us.
00:06:07I've done some analysis.
00:06:09Most of the comments are coming through Instagram.
00:06:12You guys are DMing us or dropping in the comments.
00:06:14That's fine.
00:06:15You can also email us, motortrend at motortrend.com.
00:06:18You can shoot us personal notes.
00:06:20You can drop them in YouTube.
00:06:22I picked up a question from our YouTube comment section.
00:06:25Just send us a question.
00:06:26And I promise you, it will take a little bit of time, but we'll send you something for your efforts.
00:06:30Now, let's talk about our guest.
00:06:32So, hopefully you're paying attention to this space because you love cars.
00:06:38And if you do love cars and you've been following the Enthusiast Space, you will know the name Hagerty.
00:06:43So, Hagerty is an insurance company that has started to get into arguably every phase of automotive enthusiasm.
00:06:52I think what Ed's trying to say is the odds are very good that by the end of the episode,
00:06:55Mikhail Hagerty will buy him and I.
00:06:58Well, we might be worried for Mikhail by the end of this episode.
00:07:01No, Hagerty is the insurance company for the automotive enthusiasts.
00:07:06They have made a great business of insuring high-end, collectible cars, antique cars, high-performance vehicles.
00:07:15And my junky old 914.
00:07:17I have two cars. I mean, both my Land Cruiser and my 911 are insured by them.
00:07:21They do big events.
00:07:23They've been buying up a lot of the biggest and most historic Concours events, Amelia Island.
00:07:31Yeah, I mean, Radwood, which isn't big or historic, but very popular.
00:07:34They bought that.
00:07:35They got a new auction company, Broad Arrow, which is competing with the big boys in the auction space.
00:07:40Yes.
00:07:42And we have the CEO, Mikhail Hagerty.
00:07:45This is a family business.
00:07:47He is the son of the founders of this family business.
00:07:52He took over in 2000 as co-CEO and then was full-time CEO in 2012.
00:08:00Super interesting background.
00:08:02Car guy, boat guy, went to school here on the West Coast.
00:08:05Cyclist, priest. You'll find out a lot about Mikhail in this episode.
00:08:08We're going to talk to Mikhail about his company, about what Hagerty is doing,
00:08:13but also about how he sees the world, the future of automotive,
00:08:17from both the insurance angle and, I think, the enthusiast angle.
00:08:21Welcome, Mikhail.
00:08:22Mikhail Hagerty, thank you so much.
00:08:24What an honor to have you here.
00:08:27Mr. Hagerty.
00:08:28Mr. Hagerty.
00:08:29I am a Hagerty. I am Hagerty insured.
00:08:31I pay $300 a year for a car I've never driven.
00:08:36I'm honored.
00:08:37I'm honored to be here with two fine customers.
00:08:39Or you owe me $1,500.
00:08:41Drive carefully.
00:08:42Two ways to look at it.
00:08:43Drive carefully.
00:08:44Also, congratulations on Hagerty's 40th anniversary.
00:08:48Thank you. Big year.
00:08:50And Motor Trend's 75th.
00:08:52Thank you for supporting Motor Trend in our 75th year.
00:08:55So, lots of pats on the back all the way around.
00:08:59Happy birthdays.
00:09:00Thank you.
00:09:01We can just start there.
00:09:03How's it going?
00:09:04I was thinking, could we start, actually?
00:09:06Because it's kind of timely.
00:09:08The Aaron Water auction, Aaron Water show,
00:09:12because you started an auction company a couple years ago,
00:09:16which reminds me of the great Homer Simpson line
00:09:19when, you know, like all these jean manufacturers,
00:09:22you know, looked at Levi's and Jordache and said,
00:09:24me too.
00:09:25Yeah, me too. Let's get after this.
00:09:27So, Broad Arrow and our friends, you know,
00:09:30Zwart and Pat Long and all the people behind Lyft
00:09:32could get cool to have a new show, Aaron Water.
00:09:34And you guys are doing an auction of these insane Porsches.
00:09:37Yeah, 70 really good cars.
00:09:39Yeah, like just as a way to kind of draw people in.
00:09:42Initially, like, how'd that come about?
00:09:45That seems like a good collab.
00:09:46You know, the whole business was always about
00:09:50the idea of like protecting cars.
00:09:52You guys are insurance customers of ours.
00:09:54But, you know, after a lot of decades of doing this
00:09:57and a lot of years, you know,
00:09:58you really become part of the whole ecosystem of the car world.
00:10:02And, you know, there's automotive media
00:10:04and there are automotive events
00:10:05and there are all those things that you just naturally go to.
00:10:07You get to know everybody.
00:10:09And, you know, protection and insurance
00:10:12is kind of a lot about the value of cars.
00:10:15And so one of the first things we ever had to do
00:10:18as a business is get really good at understanding
00:10:20the value of cars that are kind of hard to value.
00:10:23There was a lot of subjectivity to it for a long time.
00:10:25A lot of opinion.
00:10:26You know, when I first got into this,
00:10:27it was everybody had an opinion about something it was worth.
00:10:30But, you know, the world is all about data now, right?
00:10:33And so one of the first things we did was,
00:10:35okay, let's get into the data side of valuations.
00:10:40Let's really track it.
00:10:41Let's be kind of a source for that.
00:10:43And it really started the breadcrumbs along the trail
00:10:46of getting into how can we help people buy and sell cars,
00:10:49but in a really trustworthy way
00:10:51because there are lots of great places, like you said.
00:10:53Like, don't be the other jean manufacturer
00:10:56that goes, you know, that, like, dies on that beach.
00:10:59Or there's always room at the top
00:11:01is the other way to look at it, right?
00:11:02Yeah, well, we just felt there needed to be a better way.
00:11:05And they're great companies.
00:11:06You know, we've been involved around, say,
00:11:08the auction world for a long time,
00:11:10and they're super exciting.
00:11:11You know, you go to them, you watch them on television.
00:11:13They're just a blast.
00:11:14It's just intoxicating.
00:11:16But for us, you know, we realized we were getting so large
00:11:19around the insurance and membership side of our world,
00:11:22but we had all this data on people buying and selling cars,
00:11:26you know, adding them to their insurance policies,
00:11:28selling them off, that kind of thing.
00:11:30And it's not a few hundred cars or a few thousand.
00:11:33It's, like, hundreds of thousands of cars,
00:11:35like, much larger than you'd see in everything else.
00:11:37And we thought, wow, we maybe could, like,
00:11:40serve that space a little differently.
00:11:42And so, but the challenge is a team.
00:11:44You got to have a good team to do that stuff.
00:11:45So there was this new auction company formed,
00:11:47but, like, it's whole industry veterans.
00:11:49And we were going to kind of partner with them for a while,
00:11:51and we ended up acquiring the business
00:11:53after we went public a couple years ago.
00:11:55Oh, I didn't realize it was an acquisition.
00:11:57Oh, okay.
00:11:58But we've added a lot to the team.
00:12:00What we've done is kind of clustered some of their auctions
00:12:03around our events that we now own and run.
00:12:06But this one is not.
00:12:08We've been longtime supporters of Luft
00:12:10and, you know, love Pat and Jeff and, like, just the team.
00:12:14I mean, it's such a cult super event.
00:12:16I'm a Porsche guy, like, to the bone.
00:12:18Yeah.
00:12:19And so this is super cool to do an all-Porsche sale.
00:12:22And we did an all-Porsche sale last year,
00:12:24kind of in their first year at Porsche Experience Center in Atlanta.
00:12:28And it's just, you know, probably the theme of Porsche
00:12:31will come up here a few times in our conversation,
00:12:33but it's just been such a hot brand.
00:12:35And for so long, it was really undervalued.
00:12:37And now, like, you know,
00:12:38they're really in the mainstream of the car world.
00:12:40So I can't wait to see what happens in Costa Mesa on the 27th.
00:12:44I mean, there's a roof I keep looking at.
00:12:48Yes.
00:12:49A lot's going to happen, apparently.
00:12:51But, yeah, no, I'm in a bunch of, like, I don't know how you put it,
00:12:55never-ending text threads with car nerds.
00:12:57And so, like, the...
00:12:58Bet you are.
00:12:59Yeah.
00:13:00But the Broad Arrow air and water cars,
00:13:03people are just salivating.
00:13:04It's something.
00:13:05It's really amazing.
00:13:06It's a nice group of cars.
00:13:07Yeah.
00:13:08And that was a good way to talk about, basically,
00:13:11all of the things that Hagerty, your company, is doing.
00:13:14We don't have enough time.
00:13:17I mean, at a high level, right?
00:13:19So, you know, the company was founded in 84.
00:13:23It's now known for insuring collectible vehicles,
00:13:26classic cars, antique cars, enthusiast vehicles.
00:13:30But, man, you've done so much more just in the last, I don't know,
00:13:335, 10 years.
00:13:34I'm sorry.
00:13:35I'm tripping out that 84 is 40 years ago.
00:13:37Yeah.
00:13:38Yeah.
00:13:39Me too.
00:13:40I had great hair.
00:13:41Sorry.
00:13:42I had great hair, by the way.
00:13:43Senior moment.
00:13:44Go ahead.
00:13:45Media side to all the events that you've really taken over
00:13:50and elevated, Amelia Island, now the Amelia, to …
00:13:57Well, Radwood we're super excited about this year.
00:13:59Yep.
00:14:00Radwood.
00:14:01That's, you know, again, really leaning into where's this going,
00:14:03not just where it's been.
00:14:04Right.
00:14:05We're really excited about Radwood.
00:14:06And I'm going to get the name wrong,
00:14:07but the party at the airport at Pebble.
00:14:10What's that?
00:14:11Motor Lux.
00:14:12Motor Lux.
00:14:13Motor Lux.
00:14:15Well, that was all just for me.
00:14:16We just wanted to make it a nice party for me.
00:14:18No, we had been going to that event for years,
00:14:20and it was fun and interesting.
00:14:22It was fun and interesting.
00:14:23But it needed to be, you know, like a proper big luxury party.
00:14:27We need more B-29s, though.
00:14:28Or B-17s.
00:14:29But just the attention to detail that these guys bring.
00:14:33I remember the first year, your wife, soon, you know,
00:14:37she goes, what did you think?
00:14:38And I go, I was dying of thirst.
00:14:39There was no water.
00:14:40And she's like, and next year there was so much water.
00:14:43Oh, yes.
00:14:44And the hamburger stand at the exit of the party was a genius moment.
00:14:48Exactly what you need.
00:14:49Again, it's all about me.
00:14:50Yes.
00:14:51What do you want?
00:14:52What's going to keep us from going to get a slothy burger right now?
00:14:55We're going to have them here.
00:14:56Right.
00:14:57Amazing.
00:14:58But, yeah, to me, because I've been going to that party also for years
00:15:01and years, I was like, wow, this is something actually worthwhile.
00:15:04And real, like, full credit to Soon on that one.
00:15:07Because she came.
00:15:08I met her in the automotive space,
00:15:10and she had agencies on the PR and marketing side.
00:15:13Lamborghini.
00:15:14That's when I met her.
00:15:16She ran the Lamborghini thing for 10, 12 years, something like that.
00:15:20But you get to see really good stuff around the world,
00:15:22and you think in different segments of luxury space and different things,
00:15:26how can we bring it to us in the car world and make it cool?
00:15:29So, yeah, Motorlux is really fun.
00:15:32It is, yeah.
00:15:33So amidst all that, including in the last couple years,
00:15:36you took Hagerty public via SPAC.
00:15:39I mean, what else are you doing?
00:15:42I mean, come on.
00:15:43I'm just kidding.
00:15:45How do you have the time to do all this stuff?
00:15:47And what else?
00:15:49What's cooking right now?
00:15:51Think of your experience at Motortrend.
00:15:55Think of working with great teams.
00:15:57The only way you get anything done is with great teams.
00:15:59And so I think a big part of our business from the beginning,
00:16:02it was a family company.
00:16:03It started 40 years ago in the basement of the house I grew up in.
00:16:07Wow.
00:16:08And that's really, I was viewed it in the early days.
00:16:10And it was insurance, but it was insurance in the early days just for wooden boats.
00:16:14And cars came a few years after that.
00:16:17But we always just wanted to build great teams of people
00:16:21that you kind of liked working with.
00:16:23And it's weird to think it's only 40 years ago or, my gosh, it's 40 years ago.
00:16:28But back then, insurance as a service wasn't that friendly.
00:16:33Like it was everybody had to have it.
00:16:35You had, you know, got to buy, got to pay for it.
00:16:37It wasn't like a service-friendly business.
00:16:39It was almost like a tax you had to pay to own a thing.
00:16:43And so we just decided, you know, we were Midwesterners, northern Michigan.
00:16:46We were going to kind of bring that kind of maybe Midwestern kindness to the process.
00:16:51And it just kind of went through everything.
00:16:53And so what that does, I think people feel it on the other side of a transaction
00:16:58or a service thing.
00:17:00And then you also attract that kind of people to your teams.
00:17:04We were talking earlier about the auction team that we were going to need
00:17:08if we wanted to get into a marketplace space is it's all about the team.
00:17:12And it's all about how you want to serve people.
00:17:14And for us, my mother, who just passed away pretty recently,
00:17:19if you asked her, okay, Mom, why did this business work from the beginning?
00:17:22Can you believe how big it is, Mom?
00:17:24First of all, she was 89.
00:17:27And she would say, look, people take good care of their toys.
00:17:30And cars are their toys.
00:17:31And when you work hard to buy something, it's your precious thing.
00:17:34Just think of the simplest thing that the audience of this podcast will do.
00:17:40Like if you have a cool car that you're really excited about,
00:17:42you're going to park it in a different place.
00:17:44You're going to take good care of it.
00:17:45You keep all the stuff you do because it's precious.
00:17:48And so that's like the underlying emotion behind everything we do.
00:17:53And so when we think about going into anything new, it's always, okay,
00:17:57can that mindset be effective there?
00:18:01Like you think of an auction.
00:18:03Okay, well, can we bring protection and trust and kindness
00:18:07and just doing things right?
00:18:09Will that help there or is it no?
00:18:10It's too gritty.
00:18:11It doesn't matter.
00:18:12It's just about buying and selling.
00:18:14And what we realize is, yeah, it does.
00:18:16People really care.
00:18:17So that's kind of been the model.
00:18:19But not everything has worked.
00:18:20Like we've tried stuff where we think, oh, we'd be really good there
00:18:23or we have some capability or we could get into it easily.
00:18:25But it's like our DNA didn't apply in that space as well.
00:18:30So you just don't keep doing it.
00:18:32I think you're fundamentally talking about the fact that, Haggerty,
00:18:35you are servicing typically a client at the top end of the market.
00:18:41Right?
00:18:42When you talk about things being maybe a little gritty,
00:18:45I mean wooden boats, the start of this business,
00:18:48this is not a commodity.
00:18:51Right?
00:18:52This is not something.
00:18:53They're really rare.
00:18:54But did your parents have an insurance background?
00:18:59Did they start insurance coming out of thin air?
00:19:01Yeah, my dad, I'm fresh out of college.
00:19:03My parents met at Michigan State.
00:19:06My dad, he was kind of a son of Detroit.
00:19:10His father was from Detroit.
00:19:11His grandfather worked for Ford in Detroit.
00:19:13And you live in Michigan, especially during any of those decades,
00:19:17long before I was there,
00:19:18everybody had something to do with the car world.
00:19:20You were one degree of separation from it.
00:19:22And so it wasn't like they were just cars.
00:19:24They weren't fancy or expensive or whatever.
00:19:27They were just cars and they were everywhere.
00:19:29And so my dad went in the insurance business in 1956.
00:19:33He was a state farm insurance agent.
00:19:35It was just an out of college first business.
00:19:37Okay.
00:19:38And he was pretty good at it.
00:19:39And then that business kind of grew
00:19:41and he did another insurance agency thing.
00:19:44But there was a huge recession that hit Michigan in the late 70s.
00:19:47And so he sold that business.
00:19:49And they were kind of trying to, they were wandering around a little bit,
00:19:52trying to figure out what to do.
00:19:53And my dad, I was admired some of the classic,
00:19:57we used to call them classic car, you know,
00:19:58antique and classic car insurance businesses,
00:20:01because, you know, they were kind of stable.
00:20:04It was kind of national instead of just Michigan.
00:20:06It was like, it had all these things.
00:20:08And he was a car guy.
00:20:09We had boats.
00:20:10And he said, what if we did this for boats,
00:20:12what other people were doing for cars?
00:20:13And it was kind of as simple as that.
00:20:15And so it was literally business card size ad in a wooden boat magazine,
00:20:20you know, with a phone number,
00:20:21call us and we'll help you insure your wooden boat.
00:20:23And they kind of thought, well,
00:20:25maybe this will be kind of a cool retirement business.
00:20:27They were kind of, they were in their 50s.
00:20:29And the thing just exploded.
00:20:31Like it just went crazy.
00:20:33Like in a very short period of time.
00:20:34Doing boats?
00:20:35Doing just wooden boats.
00:20:37Just wooden boats.
00:20:38Yeah.
00:20:39Only just one thing.
00:20:40Who was underwriting boats at that time?
00:20:41Nobody did.
00:20:42And so.
00:20:43That's great.
00:20:44That's risky.
00:20:45And because everybody thought they were too risky.
00:20:46It's too niche.
00:20:47Nobody will know how to repair them.
00:20:48Nobody knows what they're worth.
00:20:50Like all of those things.
00:20:51But, you know, for, I mean,
00:20:53we were a wooden boating family because we grew up on a little lake in
00:20:55Northern Michigan is, but yet for us,
00:20:57like this is the most precious thing in the family.
00:21:01Not that it was worth a lot.
00:21:02It was precious.
00:21:03You really cared about it.
00:21:05And, you know, everybody learned it.
00:21:07Our boat was called Pipe Dream.
00:21:08We still have it.
00:21:09It's like everybody learns to drive Pipe Dream.
00:21:11Everybody learns to water ski behind Pipe Dream.
00:21:13You know, you know, like Pipe Dream is special.
00:21:15And so that's the premise of the insurance that they kind of started.
00:21:19And then all of us, my older sisters and I,
00:21:22we all pitched in like you're just family business.
00:21:24Like I don't care if your family was in the corner grocery store or
00:21:27whatever you pitch in, you're going to work on a Saturday morning.
00:21:30You're going to go for us.
00:21:31It was going to boat shows is all of our wooden boat customers.
00:21:35Kept coming to us and say, Hey, have cars too.
00:21:38Why don't you ensure those?
00:21:39And so it was sort of one of these.
00:21:41Okay.
00:21:42Maybe we were car family too,
00:21:44but it felt big and kind of intimidating because it's much larger.
00:21:47Yeah.
00:21:48And so we just kind of stumbled into it.
00:21:49But at the second, that second round in the nineties,
00:21:53that wasn't just my parents.
00:21:55My, my parents said, let's have,
00:21:57let's have the kids own it equally with us.
00:22:00Right.
00:22:01We're all going to be partners in it.
00:22:02And one sister was an attorney and she's like, yeah, whatever, you know,
00:22:05I don't want it.
00:22:06But she said, I'll, I'll help.
00:22:07And my other sister was in grad school.
00:22:09I was eventually in grad school.
00:22:10So we all just kind of stumbled into it.
00:22:12And, but it, you kind of learn to love things and then you don't,
00:22:16and the entrepreneurial spirit is you just don't ever give up.
00:22:19Right.
00:22:20Yeah.
00:22:21It was fun.
00:22:22I honestly,
00:22:23it's one of the coolest businesses because insurance is not sexy as a,
00:22:26as a product, but cars are.
00:22:28Oh yeah.
00:22:29They're the best.
00:22:30I mean, we wouldn't be here.
00:22:31Yeah.
00:22:32We all love cars.
00:22:33It was inevitable.
00:22:34Yeah.
00:22:35There we go.
00:22:36That we would get into this.
00:22:37Insuring, insurance may not be sexy.
00:22:39Insurance Ferraris can be kind of sexy.
00:22:41I mean.
00:22:42No,
00:22:43classic car insurance is, you know, it's, it's, it's a,
00:22:46I gotta have it.
00:22:48And if you can make it kind of a little bit more fun than say state farm,
00:22:52like it's a kind of a no brainer, right?
00:22:54Yeah.
00:22:55And again, I'm not, we're not really, we're not chilling too hard here,
00:22:58but we are both, we are both customers.
00:23:00And I will say the process is you get,
00:23:03you guys are state of the art, the online stuff.
00:23:06Like you call in, you talk to a real person.
00:23:08Like I've done,
00:23:09I'm like the worst customer because my stuff lapses and you guys don't
00:23:12bother me too much.
00:23:13But then I got a call back and then they're like, Oh yeah, totally.
00:23:16Just do this.
00:23:17I'm like, okay.
00:23:18I'm the best.
00:23:19We have a whole department just for you.
00:23:20Just to chase you down.
00:23:22Kindly though.
00:23:23I was in a board meeting yesterday talking about just,
00:23:25and the world lets their insurance just lapse.
00:23:28This guy.
00:23:29So now I know.
00:23:30I think mine's autopay, but again, it's for a car that's never moved.
00:23:34So for you, it's great.
00:23:37Send us the check, your ignition keys and everybody's happy.
00:23:41I mean, you might as well have them.
00:23:43They do me no good.
00:23:44But you, you touched on it briefly about where your sisters were at.
00:23:47And I, again, we're good.
00:23:48This one, we're going to run out of time before we run out of things to
00:23:50talk about.
00:23:51I looked at, you have a Wikipedia.
00:23:53Haggerty and McKeon both have a Wikipedia page and they're both reasonably
00:23:56well filled out.
00:23:58You were going to be a priest and you went,
00:24:03you got a master's in philosophy and Russian Orthodox theology from St.
00:24:08Vladimir's in Yonkers.
00:24:11It is in Yonkers.
00:24:12We used to call it Crestwood.
00:24:13It sounds better.
00:24:14But first question is, do you speak Russian?
00:24:17No.
00:24:19No.
00:24:21You learned a lot, you know,
00:24:23just conversational because of the student body there.
00:24:26That was a pretty sizable Eastern European community in New York.
00:24:31Okay.
00:24:32And so the seminary popped up like in the, it was pre,
00:24:35it was between the world wars and it was kind of like the center of,
00:24:40believe it or not, Russian Orthodox, like theological studies and thoughts.
00:24:45So everybody from all over the world would want to come study at this place.
00:24:49Sure.
00:24:50You couldn't do it in Russia.
00:24:51Well, yeah.
00:24:52Well, not and have heat.
00:24:54Not at the time.
00:24:57And so, yeah, I went to Pepperdine in LA, you know,
00:25:00had a great experience, studied philosophy and English lit, loved it.
00:25:03Great experience.
00:25:04And I thought, well, I want to be a professor.
00:25:06That was my dream.
00:25:07Never going into this family insurance business thing ever.
00:25:10That was my thinking.
00:25:11And I had a professor who said, well, you probably want to get your PhD,
00:25:15but you probably need to work on your languages.
00:25:17So why don't you go to seminary?
00:25:18And he was Russian Orthodox.
00:25:20I'm like, well, okay, sure.
00:25:21Why not?
00:25:22I'll go.
00:25:23And it was almost like on that kind of whim.
00:25:25And really fell in love with it because it wasn't so much that, yeah,
00:25:28you kind of get pulled into the priesthood track.
00:25:31It was super international.
00:25:33I mean, there were just the languages and all this kind of global thinking
00:25:36that I had never been exposed to.
00:25:38And you learn a lot, and you learn a lot of languages,
00:25:41and you do a lot of interesting things.
00:25:44Yeah.
00:25:45I have a small background.
00:25:47One of my majors was like comparative religions.
00:25:49Yeah.
00:25:50And, like, yeah, I mean, I had my favorite professor.
00:25:54But one of them was a priest.
00:25:55And it was fascinating, the stuff we talked about.
00:25:58Okay.
00:25:59Before that, how did you end up at Pepperdine?
00:26:01As far away from northern Michigan as I could get in the sunshine.
00:26:05And, man, Hawaii was not an option, I was told.
00:26:08Pepperdine is in Malibu, essentially.
00:26:10My dad was a professor at Pepperdine.
00:26:12Oh, really?
00:26:13Yeah.
00:26:14It's on the water.
00:26:15It's a beautiful campus.
00:26:16Oh, yeah.
00:26:17Every time I drive by it now, I'm like, oh, my God.
00:26:19I don't think I had enough fun.
00:26:20It's not Russian Orthodox.
00:26:22It's not.
00:26:23It's not.
00:26:24It has a different.
00:26:25It's an evangelical Church of Christ school.
00:26:28Yeah, but there's a delicate question about how do you go from fun and sun in California to.
00:26:33Yonkers.
00:26:34Yonkers, priesthood, potential priesthood, right?
00:26:36It's a flight.
00:26:37It's just one flight.
00:26:39All right.
00:26:40We'll leave it there.
00:26:41Too much sun?
00:26:42Honestly, look, I wanted to do, I was, like, had this thing.
00:26:45Like, I wanted to do something really hard.
00:26:48Like, super challenging, like, so far out of my comfort zone.
00:26:51And that is about as far, not only different than the way I was kind of raised, different
00:26:57than Pepperdine, but, like, do something super fun and challenging.
00:27:00And it was really challenging and amazing.
00:27:03All right.
00:27:04I still keep doing goofy stuff like that.
00:27:06So let's bring it back to some of these interesting things that Hagerty is doing.
00:27:12We mentioned some of the events, Radwood, the Amelia.
00:27:17This predates all of that.
00:27:18This is one, I think, arguably one of the most important, longest, will be perhaps your
00:27:26legacy, which is the National Historic Vehicle Registry.
00:27:31Can you talk about that?
00:27:32Why?
00:27:33First of all, why?
00:27:34Like, why do this?
00:27:36Where does this idea come from?
00:27:38And then what is it about?
00:27:40Or what is it about?
00:27:41You know, we were talking earlier.
00:27:43Okay, insurance, car values, all that kind of stuff.
00:27:45And auctions.
00:27:46And auctions.
00:27:47Like, auctions on television.
00:27:48And what blows people away, if their first exposure to kind of cool cars is watching
00:27:53an auction on television, they just think, one, oh, all the money.
00:27:56And it's just like money.
00:27:57Like, everybody's just like, they see dollars.
00:27:59$300,000 Chevelles.
00:28:01And that's true.
00:28:03And it's exciting.
00:28:04But, you know, I also grew up in a place where I love the history of cars.
00:28:09And I love their cultural value, not just their economic value.
00:28:13But I also knew, like, we had a few cars in the family that were, like, really kind
00:28:16of cool or important historically, but they weren't worth that much, necessarily.
00:28:20They would never sell for a lot at an auction.
00:28:22And that story goes all over the place.
00:28:24And so I became aware of the, there's a group called FIVA in Europe, which is called,
00:28:30I'm going to butcher the French.
00:28:31So it's Fédération Internationale Véhicule Ancien.
00:28:34So it's the International Federation of Historic Vehicles.
00:28:38It's in, like, 100 countries.
00:28:40But their stated purpose is to, like, to preserve historic cars on tomorrow's roads.
00:28:46And I just love the translation into English, which is, yesterday's cars, tomorrow's roads.
00:28:50And I'm like, wow, you know, you're already starting to hear this chatter that, oh, maybe
00:28:54cool old cars are going to be legislated off the roads.
00:28:57And so here's this international group, but with no representation in the U.S.
00:29:01And so I got to know these people, started traveling internationally, getting to know
00:29:04them.
00:29:05And I thought, we should do this in the U.S.
00:29:07We should figure it out.
00:29:08We should figure it out.
00:29:09It'll be kind of a hard sell.
00:29:10It's going to be a really long ball, a long pull.
00:29:13And so we started the kind of FIVA local group in the U.S. to represent them and try to figure
00:29:21out, okay, so what are those kind of FIVA things will work in the U.S.?
00:29:25And we, you know, we're looking around.
00:29:27Okay, well, what are the historic things that anybody cares about at all in the U.S.?
00:29:31And have you ever passed one of those historic buildings that has a plate or the thing on
00:29:35it, you know, historic home or historic building?
00:29:38And it's on the National Register of Historic Places.
00:29:42And I was like, what is that?
00:29:44And we started realizing it's like, well, that whole regime of those buildings could
00:29:50have technically also applied to cars or vehicles, but never had been done.
00:29:55And so we kind of started researching like, well, it kind of works in the U.S., so what
00:29:59if we just started picking truly great cars and we'll start going through this process
00:30:03of putting them in the National Historic...
00:30:06We created this historic vehicle register, but like recognized by the Library of Congress,
00:30:11you know...
00:30:12Department of Interior?
00:30:13Department of Interior.
00:30:14It's a really wild process to get through.
00:30:16You have to have...
00:30:17I mean, even if you take an existing car and say, we're going to put it through this process,
00:30:21you have to have engineering drawings made of it.
00:30:25You have to have all these special...
00:30:26They have to be photographed in a certain way.
00:30:29And then it's kind of accepted.
00:30:31And now it's a sort of permanent part of the historic record of the United States.
00:30:37Of the Library of Congress.
00:30:38Those are mandated by the Department of Interior or the Library of Congress?
00:30:42Well, it's the way it works.
00:30:43And then they're permanently on display as part of the...
00:30:47Not the car, but the records and everything.
00:30:50You put the submission together.
00:30:51And is this real quick, is this an individual car or are you talking about a model line?
00:30:55No, it's a car.
00:30:57Like an individual car.
00:30:59It's an individual car.
00:31:00And I can't remember.
00:31:01We're like 32 or 33 somewhere.
00:31:02Yeah, I looked at the list.
00:31:0334.
00:31:0434, I guess.
00:31:05Okay.
00:31:06So what we did was just try to pick cars that we thought would tell a story.
00:31:10And then the other kind of cool thing about it is we started realizing, well, you know,
00:31:15the school trip for school kids in the U.S. is to go to D.C., right?
00:31:20You go to D.C., you see the monuments, you go to the Smithsonian.
00:31:23But what we also found out is you are not legally allowed to display cars on the National Mall.
00:31:28On the National Mall in Washington.
00:31:30And the reason is, I'm sure it's because somebody broke a rule or something there or tried to do a race.
00:31:37Did a burnout.
00:31:38Did a burnout.
00:31:39But what we realized is for like an historic museum-like display, you could.
00:31:43So we had this big glass box built.
00:31:45We did the...
00:31:46You know, we put the car in the register and every year, for a week, we put it out there.
00:31:50And we just...
00:31:51We put signs out displaying it and we just let it be like part of the story of, you know, school kids going to Washington.
00:31:57And my view is just, it's just one of the many dimensions of cars that we just need to celebrate a little bit.
00:32:03And, you know, honestly, I'm honored you said maybe it'll be my legacy.
00:32:06I hope so.
00:32:07Because I love all the values and all the media and all the events.
00:32:11But we do need to make sure that we preserve these forever.
00:32:14So this was like out of your brain as like a Haggerty side hustle or just something like...
00:32:21I mean, there's no money in it.
00:32:24Oh, no.
00:32:25There's definitely no money in it.
00:32:26There's the other way.
00:32:27Right?
00:32:28This was just something that you thought that should be done based on what FIVA...
00:32:31Must be now.
00:32:32Must be now.
00:32:33Okay.
00:32:34Then I got to go into this and needle you on this weird thing that I saw, which is...
00:32:37So if you don't know what we're talking about, just Google National Historic Vehicle Registry.
00:32:42It's actually...
00:32:43You can find it at driversfoundation.org slash register.
00:32:46And there'll be all these cars.
00:32:47They're great.
00:32:48Side profile.
00:32:49You got a Jeep.
00:32:50You got a Mustang.
00:32:51You got a Plymouth Voyager minivan.
00:32:52You got the Hirohata Hot Rod.
00:32:54You got a Mercedes-Benz 300SL.
00:32:56You got a Model T.
00:32:58You got Lamborghinis and Maseratis.
00:33:00Is there...
00:33:01Why aren't they just American cars?
00:33:03Like what...
00:33:04Like, you know, if FIVA, I assume, is only doing...
00:33:07Pinky and they're French cars?
00:33:09Or they do...
00:33:10Oh, no.
00:33:11It's all over the world.
00:33:12They're global.
00:33:13All over the world.
00:33:14Yeah.
00:33:15Global cars.
00:33:16But they didn't have American...
00:33:17Was it like a snub to those Americans?
00:33:18No, they probably...
00:33:19No, it's just that for whatever reason, there was never a...
00:33:20Typically, the way FIVA enters a new country is they have a club that sponsors them.
00:33:25And there wasn't a club that ever thought it was important to sponsor that kind of activity.
00:33:29AAA didn't think this was...
00:33:30Yeah.
00:33:31So, we kind of had to create the club in a way.
00:33:33We kind of hung it off of the side of our own driver...
00:33:35Pagodi Drivers Club.
00:33:37And it's, again, I just...
00:33:38I thought it had to be done.
00:33:39And the technical way to do it required a lot of, like...
00:33:42Even for FIVA, like, I had to have them bend a few rules to get us to do it.
00:33:47And then, pretty instantly, when we started putting...
00:33:49Making our membership aware of it, it became kind of one of the largest FIVA groups in the world.
00:33:55America does everything big.
00:33:56Yeah.
00:33:57And...
00:33:58But, no, we...
00:33:59We've been pretty careful to try to mix it up every year.
00:34:02We want...
00:34:03For one thing, like, it's sitting in the box, the glass box.
00:34:06And we want to make sure that somebody wants to walk up and really look at it.
00:34:10So, it's not that we couldn't do every air-cooled Franklin.
00:34:14No offense to anybody out there who loves air-cooled Franklin.
00:34:17Now you've done it.
00:34:18But a 79 Lamborghini Countach with the wing on the nose is going to get a lot of kids to stop by.
00:34:24Exactly.
00:34:25So, it has to...
00:34:26It's still kind of a show, right?
00:34:27It's history, but it also has to be a show.
00:34:28That's why one of the Shelby Daytona Coupes, I think, was number one, maybe.
00:34:33That was the very first one.
00:34:34And we did Amelia Earhart's chord.
00:34:36Right.
00:34:37Just because, I mean, you kind of get a two-for there.
00:34:39That's a pretty good story.
00:34:40Because you get a chord and you get Amelia Earhart.
00:34:41That's a hornet.
00:34:42That's a hornet, yeah.
00:34:43I mean, look.
00:34:44I mean, like right now, over at the Peterson, they got 75 years of Porsche in California.
00:34:49Yeah.
00:34:50And it's like Ferrari passenger cars, number one market's here.
00:34:54Lamborghini, number one market's here.
00:34:56You know what I mean?
00:34:57It's...
00:34:58Well, and I said I grew up in Michigan in a Ford family, and we had Fords and Porsches,
00:35:01so we were kind of an anomaly as a collecting family.
00:35:05But I remember coming to school out here in the 80s, and my family did travel a little bit,
00:35:10and it was just still so shocking to come to Los Angeles.
00:35:13Hondas.
00:35:14Yeah.
00:35:15It's like everybody is in a Honda Civic.
00:35:16Toyota.
00:35:17Everybody's in a Honda Civic.
00:35:18But you know what?
00:35:19And then you come to Beverly Hills, and I remember seeing cars that I'd only read about in a Motor Trend.
00:35:23Yeah.
00:35:24And they're just one after another, after another, after another.
00:35:27It's such an astonishing car market out here.
00:35:29But back when you came out, Pepperdine, Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Mazda, all headquartered here.
00:35:35Hyundai put their headquarters here.
00:35:37There's a reason they were all here.
00:35:39Golf.
00:35:40Golf is the reason.
00:35:41The executives all love to play golf and sushi.
00:35:44That's very true.
00:35:45Yeah, yeah.
00:35:46We have good sushi.
00:35:48Okay.
00:35:49So this is awesome.
00:35:51We're talking about everything you guys have done, have been doing, and it's now time to get into the future,
00:35:59because this is ostensibly a podcast about where the future of cars is going.
00:36:05The future of transportation.
00:36:07Does it involve cars?
00:36:09Yeah.
00:36:10Let's talk about that.
00:36:11So you're in the insurance business.
00:36:14Yeah.
00:36:15The future of cars seems pretty clear.
00:36:17It's how far out, I think, is the question.
00:36:20But autonomous is supposed to be coming.
00:36:23There's a school of thought that says, hey, man, in an autonomous world,
00:36:27if everything is either rideshare or it's hailed on your mobile device,
00:36:32car ownership either goes away or certainly there will be some kind of impact to insurance if everybody,
00:36:39actually whether or not you're planning on having an autonomous vehicle program,
00:36:44Volvo has been pretty clear about wanting zero fatalities, mission zero, zero crash.
00:36:50As somebody in the business, how does that make you feel?
00:36:53Is there no insurance business in the future if everything drives itself and is like 100% safe or whatever?
00:37:00Well, kind of the first part of your question, it was when.
00:37:04And I think there's – look, it is probably inevitable that these – it's a little tight one – that there's going to be all this.
00:37:12Like cars are first going to be electric.
00:37:14Then there are going to be a lot more driver aids.
00:37:16It will become more like autonomous driving.
00:37:18I think the big thing is the timing a little bit is going to be driven by regulation probably.
00:37:24And the technology I think everybody is realizing is in reality probably a little harder than –
00:37:29Well, I've got to tell you, I was talking to someone at Kia and I said, so when is this level four that you're talking about?
00:37:332028.
00:37:34I go, really?
00:37:35They go, 2028.
00:37:36Yeah, probably.
00:37:37They seem to do what they say.
00:37:39Of course.
00:37:40Well, the question is where.
00:37:42And I think what I've always wondered is sort of where.
00:37:44I live in a pretty rural place in northern Michigan that has horrific weather and dark roads with the lines seem to get fade off, snow.
00:37:52And I'm not saying that maybe an autonomous machine could drive better than I can than the way I learned to grow up in the wintertime.
00:37:59But the question to me has always been, okay, before COVID – and I do a lot of speaking around the world and I'm often asked to talk about trends.
00:38:10And I would always say before COVID, the number one trend on the planet is rapid urbanization.
00:38:16People moving to cities out of the country, out of rural areas.
00:38:20Farming doesn't employ a lot of people.
00:38:22It's all mechanized, all that kind of thing.
00:38:25And then COVID, strangely, for that year and a half or so, kind of reversed it.
00:38:29Like people are moving out of New York back to Connecticut and all those kind of places because, wow, you get a little air around you.
00:38:36It's nice to be in a green space.
00:38:37You can walk.
00:38:38You can do all that stuff.
00:38:39Now, you can't in New York or although nobody –
00:38:41Yeah, but it was –
00:38:42Is everybody still not walking in LA?
00:38:44No one walks in LA.
00:38:45Okay, we've established that.
00:38:46But it was a trend, right?
00:38:47It was a trend.
00:38:48Yeah.
00:38:49But I do care what's driving me in New York.
00:38:50Like do you really want to drive in Manhattan?
00:38:52I mean I've done it.
00:38:53We've probably all done it.
00:38:54I enjoy it, but I'm weird.
00:38:55Yes.
00:38:56Speed limit's 25 miles an hour.
00:38:57Right.
00:38:58And it's just like it's much more pleasant to be driven by someone or something else.
00:39:03So I don't really care what's driving me in New York.
00:39:05But I do care what's driving me up Highway 1.
00:39:08Right.
00:39:09And I really care what's driving on Angel's Crest.
00:39:12I care what's – like Pike's Peak.
00:39:14I don't want to ride up Pike's Peak in the back of a vomit comet.
00:39:18I want to have my hands on a wheel of something.
00:39:20And honestly, whether that's an electric car or an internal combustion car or steam-powered car, I don't really care.
00:39:26Some roads, some places, I think people will want to drive for the pleasure of it.
00:39:31And that's what we're trying to preserve.
00:39:33Yeah.
00:39:34Does that make that world smaller?
00:39:35Maybe.
00:39:36Maybe.
00:39:37And I'm not terribly bothered by it.
00:39:38What I actually hope is it relieves some congestion and makes – for those who want to drive, there's a little bit more room.
00:39:46But we created this purpose out of all of this for our business, which our purpose is to save driving and fuel car culture.
00:39:53Car culture is the events and media and all those things like we all love to do.
00:39:57And what I hope is that we can still have room for yesterday's vehicles on tomorrow's roads.
00:40:02And I also think for the brand-new things and the future cars that are actually fun to drive and look good, I hope we can still drive them too.
00:40:09We did a podcast recently and it spooked me.
00:40:12We had this guest from Gensler, the big architecture firm, and he just had a throwaway comment.
00:40:18But he said, yo, if it turns out that autonomous cars are just a lot safer than human-driven cars, maybe driving will be seen the way we look at smoking today.
00:40:28Everybody smoked 40 years ago.
00:40:30Now it's crazy to smoke.
00:40:33You drove – my kids were out on the roads.
00:40:36My kids were on the street and you were driving your 5,000-horsepower whatever.
00:40:42It really spooked me.
00:40:44Every time an architectural firm in particular talks about the future of cities and they talk about autonomous vehicles and all the things that are going to happen, the one thing that I'm always – they have in their renderings is a lot of bicycles and a lot of pedestrians.
00:40:59And so regardless what the technology is of driving, you're going to have a lot of people out there.
00:41:04Safety has always been a factor and safety has never been perfect.
00:41:08But zero anything is tricky.
00:41:12Yeah.
00:41:13Like I said, that was the one kind of comment where I left and I was like, oh, boy, that's –
00:41:19I think for vintage car – like true vintage cars, I think I've often thought – when you talk about things like why do the National Historic Vehicle Register, I've often thought that we should probably align our kind of drivers more with the cycling world than – we're not trying to save commuting.
00:41:37We're trying to save driving.
00:41:39Right, right.
00:41:40And I think it's pretty different.
00:41:42Look, I've long said like if level four autonomy can happen – in other words, like yesterday I had to go from my – I had to go eight miles away.
00:41:50It took me 90-some minutes.
00:41:52It was just – it was like I suddenly hated LA.
00:41:54Mind-numbing.
00:41:55Mind-numbing, yes.
00:41:56Yeah.
00:41:57Should have walked, totally.
00:41:58But like, OK.
00:41:59So if there's – and I have my little sporty thing out there.
00:42:01If there's a way to say just drive me there and then, oh, hey, I'm on Angeles Crest.
00:42:06Now I get to drive.
00:42:07That's the best – or I can go out and have some wine.
00:42:10You know what I mean?
00:42:11And like take me home safely.
00:42:12I don't want to hurt anybody or myself.
00:42:13Sounds great.
00:42:14Right?
00:42:15That's kind of the best of both worlds.
00:42:16That's great.
00:42:17But I also think like think about the beginnings of some of this.
00:42:21Still you want cars to be attractive.
00:42:23Yeah.
00:42:24I mean there's still I think a performance aspect to it.
00:42:26There's the emotional piece.
00:42:27I have a Taycan.
00:42:28I've had a Taycan Turbo S for a couple years.
00:42:31It's just because I've been a Porsche guy, first car.
00:42:33It's like the latest car for me.
00:42:35And the thing is just like this weapons-grade machine.
00:42:38It's just unbelievable.
00:42:39It's heavy, I will say.
00:42:41It did kind of sink through my driveway.
00:42:43Did it?
00:42:44It was hot.
00:42:45You got to own like pickup trucks and stuff that are heavier.
00:42:48We do, but it was like wild.
00:42:50It was just a hot day, I think.
00:42:52It's only about 5,000 pounds.
00:42:54But it is remarkably – it's a remarkably great car.
00:42:58But I also think it looks good.
00:42:59It does.
00:43:00And, you know, at least in our little town, it gets a lot of views.
00:43:04I am struck by how I was going to say if anybody is going to be –
00:43:09I think Hagerty has the chance of being like the last insurance company
00:43:13standing based on your position in the marketplace, right?
00:43:16Like you're not an all-state or a state farm trying to insure every person
00:43:21out there on the road.
00:43:23You had this very unique position at the top where all of these cars,
00:43:28a lot of these cars are super collectible.
00:43:30They're very valuable.
00:43:31And these will be vehicles you'd want to own and keep for a long time.
00:43:35And to your credit, preserve the ability to drive them,
00:43:41which is sort of a follow-up question.
00:43:43Are you – your efforts so far are very honorable.
00:43:48Are you looking to do any kind of – if things in five years,
00:43:51if it is as Johnny says, hey, autonomous arrives in full force in 2028.
00:43:56That's what the guy at Kia told me.
00:43:57Are you going to be – is there like a –
00:43:59Level four.
00:44:00Level four.
00:44:01Let's be clear.
00:44:02Is there a lobbying effort you're going to – there was a human –
00:44:05your buddy did a human drive.
00:44:07Alex Roy, yeah.
00:44:08Did a human driving coalition.
00:44:10Is there some universe where you feel like you'd have to get in front of
00:44:14Congress and testify –
00:44:15Inevitable.
00:44:16Thank you.
00:44:17For the right of humans to drive?
00:44:19It's inevitable.
00:44:20Although I would – like my friend ACP, he's got a –
00:44:25Andrew Comrie-Picard, former rally driver.
00:44:28Model T that he drives around LA.
00:44:29Nobody cares.
00:44:30You know what I mean?
00:44:31Like the idea of like the government taking existing –
00:44:35they can prevent the sale of new products,
00:44:37but like going and taking an American's car, I just don't –
00:44:41I don't see that as a –
00:44:42Well, I mean, I'm 56.
00:44:44I think it's long beyond my time horizon,
00:44:47but I want to have the next gen be ready for it.
00:44:49I mean, a big thing is I've also kind of been a –
00:44:52we talked about my seminary background.
00:44:55I've also studied a lot of leadership,
00:44:57and you think about a lot of organizations.
00:44:58The only thing I can tell you,
00:45:00if anybody wants to see these on the roads generations from now,
00:45:03it's not going to happen on its own.
00:45:05It's going to take like real effort.
00:45:06Get out in front of it.
00:45:07And it's – I also knew we were going to have to build a business
00:45:11successful enough that I could help fund some of these efforts.
00:45:14Like you can't – we've done a lot of nonprofits.
00:45:17We have the – we started the Historic Vehicle Association.
00:45:21We had the Collectors Foundation.
00:45:23We now have the Hagerty Drivers Foundation.
00:45:25It's really hard to raise money around the car space
00:45:28for these types of things.
00:45:29So I realized, like, we've just got to build a business
00:45:31that can help fund it.
00:45:32And then hopefully people kind of believe in it
00:45:34and they throw their hat in the ring,
00:45:35but we're going to do it anyway because it's expensive to do something.
00:45:39You talk about we don't do lobbying now, but I can envision –
00:45:42I mean, whether we do it directly or we help fund
00:45:45or partner with somebody to do it, it's –
00:45:49You've got to set a record here.
00:45:51First of all –
00:45:52No, no.
00:45:53But it's genius, by the way, if you think about it,
00:45:56because now what you're saying is you'll eventually probably
00:45:59have to start wooing some politicians.
00:46:01You have all the events to do it at.
00:46:03Oh, yeah.
00:46:04This is great.
00:46:05Come to Amelia.
00:46:06Come to Amelia.
00:46:07We could do a $500 plate dinner.
00:46:08That's right.
00:46:09You guys are figuring it out.
00:46:10Yes.
00:46:11Hey, that's what I wanted to get back to.
00:46:12It's got to be fun.
00:46:13So Amelia and auctions and pebble and all this,
00:46:1540 years from now, is there going to be an EV on the lawn?
00:46:20A hundred.
00:46:21Hang on.
00:46:2240 years?
00:46:23Okay.
00:46:24Because if we go back 40 years, 84.
00:46:25Well, there's probably already been an EV on the lawn.
00:46:27It was probably a Detroit Electric, right?
00:46:29Yes.
00:46:30A modern EV.
00:46:31Something very well said.
00:46:32Modern EV.
00:46:33Something with a lot of electronics in it.
00:46:34EV1?
00:46:35Yeah, EV1.
00:46:36Do you guys look that far in the future?
00:46:38Yeah.
00:46:39I mean, I think you've got to have that stuff,
00:46:41and I think the question is are they attractive?
00:46:45Did people like them?
00:46:46I mean, do they have other qualities to them?
00:46:48I think it's like some of the early hybrids,
00:46:50and let's just maybe be brand agnostic.
00:46:53I remember having a dinner maybe with you
00:46:56or a number of automotive journalists,
00:46:58and when we do a dinner with automotive journalists,
00:47:00I like asking the questions.
00:47:02And I was asking why.
00:47:05Okay, I've just got to say it.
00:47:07Why do so many journalists not write ravingly
00:47:10about the early Toyota Priuses,
00:47:13even though clearly it was like that beginning of people
00:47:16who were super environmentally conscious,
00:47:18wanting to vote with their checkbook,
00:47:20buy a car that they felt they were doing the right thing with,
00:47:22which I totally agree and totally honor.
00:47:24But journalists didn't like it, and I'm convinced it's because,
00:47:26well, it wasn't really built for them.
00:47:28Yes.
00:47:29Right?
00:47:30They weren't.
00:47:31100%.
00:47:32I think the design was challenging,
00:47:33performance was fine or whatever,
00:47:34but it just was not built for journalists
00:47:35because it didn't get your blood going.
00:47:37It got your head and your heart maybe going
00:47:40if you were that kind of buyer.
00:47:41And so my view is just make them look a hell of a lot better.
00:47:45Can I say a hell of a lot better?
00:47:46Yeah.
00:47:47You can say whatever you want.
00:47:48And, you know, it's like my Taycan.
00:47:51I mean, it's a Porsche.
00:47:53Drives like a car.
00:47:55Wickedly fast.
00:47:56Mieczysz Bokert, I always butcher his name,
00:47:58but he's a head designer at Lamborghini,
00:48:00but he drew that.
00:48:01He designed the Taycan when he was a Porsche.
00:48:03He's pretty good.
00:48:04Oh, man, I judged with him at Pebble List.
00:48:06Oh, did you?
00:48:07He did a couple drawings for me on my judging sheet
00:48:09that I framed in my office.
00:48:11It's just the part of the car world I love.
00:48:14Here in Beverly Hills, I was going to drive,
00:48:16it was a prototype of a hybrid Panamera,
00:48:19and they forgot that America used different electricity
00:48:22than Germany.
00:48:23So for six hours, German engineers were trying
00:48:25to charge the thing.
00:48:26Oh, jeez.
00:48:27So Mieczysz, just to entertain me,
00:48:28started making drawings for me.
00:48:30I still have them, and they're framed.
00:48:31They're amazing.
00:48:32As a judge at Pebble, you're not allowed to take pictures.
00:48:34They tell you, like, wait until you're done judging,
00:48:36then go take pictures.
00:48:37He's like, but I can draw them, right?
00:48:39And he drew a picture of every car we judged,
00:48:42all on his judging sheet.
00:48:43He said, oh, you want that?
00:48:44And he just signed it over to me.
00:48:45I'm like, oh.
00:48:46That's amazing.
00:48:47The talent.
00:48:48It also is amazing, though.
00:48:49It's interesting that you were able to notice
00:48:52the anti-Prius bias of journalists.
00:48:55Because I remember, and I'll just shout out
00:48:58to our friends at Car and Driver.
00:48:59But back in about 20 years ago, you'd open the magazine,
00:49:03and there was Chubba, Prius sucks, and there was Brock Yates,
00:49:09and Prius is the devil.
00:49:10And there was Bedard.
00:49:14No, Bedard.
00:49:15Bedard's mathematically proving that Priuses
00:49:18were worse for the environment than a fleet of Hummers.
00:49:22And I'm like, but now everyone feels that way about EVs
00:49:27and all these car enthusiasts are like, hybrids.
00:49:29Everyone's got to be, we need hybrids.
00:49:32So it's funny how in 20 years that can shift.
00:49:35And it's funny that you were seeing that back then.
00:49:37I remember it.
00:49:38I just thought, okay, why do you hate it?
00:49:40Why do you hate about them?
00:49:41Well, not everybody.
00:49:42I hated them.
00:49:43Motor Trend picked Prius Car of the Year,
00:49:46and it's third generation, second generation.
00:49:48Second generation.
00:49:49Second generation.
00:49:50That doesn't mean we liked it.
00:49:51That just means we met our criteria.
00:49:53We at least had some wonks like Frank and Kim Reynolds
00:49:55who appreciated the engineering.
00:49:57Again, everything, my problem with previous Priuses
00:50:02was every single thing about the car
00:50:04was sacrificed on the altar of efficiency.
00:50:06They forgot to make it look good and handle good.
00:50:09On the National Historic Vehicle Register,
00:50:11we have a minivan.
00:50:12One of the first ones.
00:50:14Because it was an importantly historic car.
00:50:16There probably should be a Prius.
00:50:18There should be an EV1.
00:50:19We've got to get a few years out,
00:50:21because right now we can only do one a year.
00:50:23Maybe we could do two or three.
00:50:24I don't think EV1, but Model S.
00:50:26I'd throw a Model S in there.
00:50:27Oh, a Model S, yeah.
00:50:28Because obviously I think that was, in my mind,
00:50:30was the first one super attractive.
00:50:32It just ticked so many boxes.
00:50:33Great to drive.
00:50:34Looked great.
00:50:35Cool.
00:50:36Yeah.
00:50:37And 100 miles per gallon MPG.
00:50:41It was twice as efficient.
00:50:43Satisfied that conscience.
00:50:45So you do see a moment in the future
00:50:48where there'll be a Tesla class on the lawn at Pebble Beach.
00:50:52Plaid class, the Plaid.
00:50:53Well, look, the Peterson.
00:50:54I've been involved with the Peterson for a long time.
00:50:56We have the Harry Vald over there on our board.
00:50:58We did the Tesla display of all the different products
00:51:04that Elon Musk has been involved with,
00:51:06but plus all of the cars.
00:51:08That was just an incredible display.
00:51:10Popular.
00:51:11I go to the Peterson probably once a month,
00:51:14and that was, especially the Roadster prototype,
00:51:17people going crazy for that thing.
00:51:19Oh, yeah.
00:51:20Well, we've had one of our events,
00:51:23we have Lucid as a sponsor,
00:51:25and I've gotten to know that team
00:51:27and drive a couple of those cars,
00:51:28and it's just, okay, again, just kind of lead people forward.
00:51:32This is what's possible.
00:51:33I spoke at one of those.
00:51:34I spoke at a Lucid, Hagerty, Peterson.
00:51:37So do you, I want to stay on this topic a little bit,
00:51:40do you have, let's go Elon first,
00:51:43do you have an opinion on Cybertruck?
00:51:48Are you getting one?
00:51:49I can read your expression.
00:51:51No, Cybertruck class.
00:51:53Well, look, by the way, I'm a sci-fi person.
00:51:56I live a lot of my time thinking about the future.
00:51:59It just doesn't move me that much.
00:52:01I mean, I didn't have that moment,
00:52:03when everybody talked,
00:52:04all of us are too young to imagine
00:52:07what the Countach must have looked,
00:52:09how different or whatever,
00:52:10just something so outrageous,
00:52:12but you're like, wowzers.
00:52:13I talked to Valentino Balboni,
00:52:15and I said, what was it like the first time
00:52:17you saw the Countach?
00:52:18And he was just, oh, look, a spaceship!
00:52:21Oh, yeah, it's a spaceship.
00:52:23Yes, we love Valentino.
00:52:25So no, it's primarily that you don't like the way it looks,
00:52:30or you're not...
00:52:31Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying I dislike it,
00:52:33it's just I can't quite wrap my head around it.
00:52:36Okay.
00:52:37Are you just going to call out cars and get...
00:52:39No, no, no, I'm just curious.
00:52:41I like that.
00:52:42This is more fun, actually.
00:52:43Well, I'm curious, because part of it's...
00:52:45Right or left?
00:52:46The next question is...
00:52:49That green roof at Motor Lux two years ago, the UCR.
00:52:51Ah, yes.
00:52:52Is that right or left?
00:52:54I don't know.
00:52:55Because we talked about Elon
00:52:57before we hit record on this thing.
00:52:58Just your thoughts on Tesla in this moment,
00:53:01or their impact.
00:53:02I mean, do you, you know...
00:53:04We agreed Model S is a significant vehicle,
00:53:06Cybertruck is not to your liking.
00:53:10Anything else?
00:53:13Well, I mean, look, the company to, you know,
00:53:16maybe not, and it felt a little shaky to some people
00:53:18at the beginning, but it's an astonishing success.
00:53:20I mean, and I hope it really is successful.
00:53:22I think it challenged a lot of orthodoxies in the car world.
00:53:25Remember, Tucker, you can't do a new car company
00:53:27Tucker.
00:53:28That's right.
00:53:29I mean, just raise the level, you know, maybe...
00:53:32I think the cars are great.
00:53:34I worry about some of the early tests of...
00:53:36I mean, again, you think about me,
00:53:38my core business is insurance.
00:53:40I think maybe some of the early attempts
00:53:43at autonomous driving with the systems early on
00:53:46was a little reckless by modern standards.
00:53:48I mean, because, by the way, we're the types of companies
00:53:51that end up having to pay for it in the end.
00:53:55But beautiful cars, you know,
00:53:58I think if they keep refreshing the model line,
00:54:01why not?
00:54:02It's great.
00:54:03Okay.
00:54:04Awesome.
00:54:05And, wow, I think I almost got run down
00:54:07by two or three of them walking in here today.
00:54:09They're just every...
00:54:10Is it like every other car?
00:54:12Oh, yeah.
00:54:13It's every other car.
00:54:14It's Model Ys.
00:54:15It's like we were talking when I was in college.
00:54:17It was Honda Civics.
00:54:18We had Frontin here.
00:54:19It was the first thing I said to him was,
00:54:21you know, do you get sick of seeing Model Ys?
00:54:23White, black, or silver Model Ys?
00:54:25Oh, no, never.
00:54:26We love...
00:54:27Well, kudos to them.
00:54:28Incredible.
00:54:29Absolutely incredible.
00:54:30Let me ask you a related question,
00:54:32because you brought it up that you are, again,
00:54:34you have to be mindful of not just the cars,
00:54:36but the people behind the wheel and their behavior.
00:54:39I was just thinking about this.
00:54:41I have a three-year-old son, and we drive around all the time,
00:54:44and I'm just noticing that everybody is on their phone
00:54:47when they're driving.
00:54:48They are not...
00:54:49Nobody is paying any goddamn attention these days.
00:54:54What do you...
00:54:55What's your position?
00:54:57You're like, sweet.
00:54:59Awesome.
00:55:00What neighborhood do you live in?
00:55:03No, I mean, surely this is concerning.
00:55:06You have kids of your own,
00:55:09but you're also in the business in this way.
00:55:11I'm also a cyclist, so I ride a lot less than I used to.
00:55:14I mean, I was a 3,000 to 5,000-mile-a-year cyclist
00:55:17in Michigan, and I don't anymore,
00:55:19because I'm just worried about getting run down by somebody.
00:55:22That bad?
00:55:23And because of phones?
00:55:24Because of phones.
00:55:25Because of Instagram.
00:55:26Wow.
00:55:27Yeah.
00:55:28Okay.
00:55:29It's on your mind, too.
00:55:30Got it.
00:55:31It does.
00:55:32It worries me.
00:55:33And that's where you hope, you know,
00:55:35Siri or all the stuff that makes people able to talk
00:55:39to their phone rather than being on it,
00:55:41you hope that works somehow.
00:55:42Or level 4 autonomy, where the car just drives you around.
00:55:45You know, honestly...
00:55:47I was just thinking about this on the way up,
00:55:49that the kind folks at General Motors do not get enough credit
00:55:53about how forward-thinking they were.
00:55:55You remember when you're like,
00:55:56I know you're going, what are you talking about?
00:55:58Yeah.
00:55:59Remember it was two generations ago in their GMT,
00:56:03I think, 800 platform pickup trucks, Tahoe and Suburban.
00:56:07They put this cubby behind the screen.
00:56:11You hit a button, the cubby would come up,
00:56:13and there was a port in there to charge,
00:56:15and you'd put your phone there, and it comes down,
00:56:17and you cannot access it when you're driving.
00:56:19And, like, that was so far ahead of its time.
00:56:22Because back then, nobody was that bad.
00:56:24Now everybody's that bad.
00:56:25And you're like, I was like, GM, you guys...
00:56:27Do you look at your weekly screen time report?
00:56:29It's the most depressing...
00:56:30Don't, yeah.
00:56:31Oh, no.
00:56:32My daughter's, though.
00:56:34Well, I'll give you a little bit of an out there.
00:56:38Screen time is inclusive of time text messaging,
00:56:41and if you are mirroring your phone to your laptop,
00:56:44and you're accessing it there, too.
00:56:46So it's a little bit of a fudge.
00:56:48I consider text messaging screen time...
00:56:51The amount of text messages I send a day is, like...
00:56:54Does it sound like he's trying to justify something?
00:56:57He's projecting a little bit.
00:56:59I'm not that bad.
00:57:00All right, let's get back to Evie's.
00:57:02You mentioned Lucid.
00:57:03Anybody else you like catch your attention?
00:57:07Well, look, I mean, I just, I think,
00:57:09and I have a real hope.
00:57:10I just think I love the turn, kind of,
00:57:12that can happen when you get innovation.
00:57:14Obviously, Tesla led the way.
00:57:16I like Lucid.
00:57:17I like the Rivians.
00:57:19I mean, just the...
00:57:20I think what's interesting for the real car nuts here is,
00:57:24you know, to see what's happening at the upper,
00:57:26upper end of the performance side of the car market.
00:57:29It's just so exciting.
00:57:30I mean, it's just amazing.
00:57:31You heard about the new Taycan, the Turbo GT.
00:57:33Yes.
00:57:34I was there at Laguna Seca,
00:57:36and, you know, the Plaid had a lap.
00:57:40It was like, you know, a minute 30,
00:57:42and I was talking to whoever before they ran,
00:57:44and they go, yeah, that's not our real target.
00:57:46Our real target's the GT2 RS, and I'm just like,
00:57:48well, I was there when Randy set that record.
00:57:50Like, that's a hard record to, like,
00:57:52beats it in the slow car that he didn't like driving,
00:57:56and then gets in the one he liked,
00:57:57and he did the Nurburgring lap with Lars Kern,
00:57:59and beats GT2 RS and is 2 tenths.
00:58:03Now, yes, they repaved Laguna.
00:58:05Maybe it's a little quicker, but 2 tenths behind a Senna.
00:58:07Yeah.
00:58:082 tenths of a second.
00:58:09It's a 5,000-pound sedan.
00:58:11Yes.
00:58:12No back seats, but the doors still, you know, it's like.
00:58:14Incredible.
00:58:15And that's, this is Porsche's first EV.
00:58:17Yes, they refreshed it, but mechanically,
00:58:19it's the same parts.
00:58:21Like, wait till their second EV.
00:58:23Oh, yeah.
00:58:24Well, and I understand the hybrid 911 is a 20, 20, 25.
00:58:29We'll see it this summer.
00:58:30I mean, hopefully.
00:58:31We'll see it this summer, yeah.
00:58:32Probably no more than that.
00:58:33992.2, as we say.
00:58:35I think that's a pretty cool,
00:58:36and I've had a 911 since I was 13 years old.
00:58:40Really?
00:58:41So I have a 67S that I paid 500 bucks for when I was 13.
00:58:45Oh, I think I saw that car somewhere.
00:58:47And you restored it, and that is the year you were born.
00:58:50Is that Porsche?
00:58:5167, yeah.
00:58:52It's from the year you were born.
00:58:53Yeah, yeah.
00:58:54That's cool.
00:58:55So that's, whenever people say, what's your favorite car?
00:58:56It's like, the only real question is,
00:58:57what's your second favorite for me?
00:58:58Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:58:59Because that one will follow me in my funeral procession.
00:59:02Okay, well, here's what I like.
00:59:04I like that.
00:59:05If you're on YouTube and you're watching this,
00:59:08and it's unlikely because most of our YouTube audience
00:59:11loves the hot rod and the internal combustion
00:59:13side of our programming.
00:59:15You'll note, though, that Mikheil, first of all,
00:59:18owns a lot of cars, owns a lot of internal combustion cars,
00:59:21has driven, like, done all the concours
00:59:23and done all these events with cars that belch beautiful plumes
00:59:27of smoke out the back, but also stated that he appreciates
00:59:30the performance at the top end that is delivered
00:59:33by the latest technology.
00:59:35And that's the part that drives me nuts
00:59:37when I encounter the comments on Instagram or on Facebook
00:59:41or on YouTube about, oh, CVs are terrible.
00:59:44I consider, I don't understand how you cannot be a fan
00:59:47of what's going on in the broader automotive industry
00:59:49right now from the number of startups, the number of crazy,
00:59:53I mean, we've got a Vietnamese company, VinFast,
00:59:56selling some wackadoodle SUVs here.
00:59:59For, like, 20, 30, 40 more minutes.
01:00:01Yeah, exactly.
01:00:02Yeah, Fisker.
01:00:03Sorry, Fisker.
01:00:04We got a helicopter flying overhead.
01:00:06Holy moly.
01:00:07But we got all of these crazy vehicles from brands
01:00:12that are essentially startups you've never heard of.
01:00:14And this has never before been seen except, actually,
01:00:18the 1900s, right?
01:00:201906.
01:00:21Before General Motors kind of bought everybody out.
01:00:23But this is, what a wild, what a great time to be alive
01:00:26if you love cars.
01:00:27Now, if your definition of cars includes
01:00:29all these new technologies, that's all I'll say.
01:00:31I just think, look, I know a little thing or two
01:00:34about, like, holy wars.
01:00:36That's not a holy war worth arguing over.
01:00:38It's not a holy war.
01:00:39It's not even a real distinction.
01:00:42You know, because in my mind, look, I have muscle cars.
01:00:45I have a lot of fast cars.
01:00:46I've driven some crazy fast cars.
01:00:48For the novice, what makes them fun?
01:00:51Torque.
01:00:52Yeah.
01:00:53And what can possibly deliver more torque faster
01:00:56than electric motors?
01:00:57Nothing.
01:00:58You can't.
01:00:59It's awesome.
01:01:00It's super fun.
01:01:01I think it gives a lot of pleasure to people.
01:01:02And who cares?
01:01:03And there's a whole generation.
01:01:04But my point is, if you want to be fussy,
01:01:06celebrate the ones that are good looking
01:01:08or the ones that are blue or the ones that are...
01:01:12The goodies.
01:01:13The goodies.
01:01:14Just, like, say, I like that one,
01:01:15and I don't like this one.
01:01:16But, like, the kind of holy war arguments.
01:01:18And I get a lot of that because I've been very agnostic
01:01:21about this from the beginning, which is, like,
01:01:23what are you all arguing about?
01:01:25Because there were electric cars.
01:01:27There were steam cars.
01:01:28There were diesel cars.
01:01:29There were gasoline cars.
01:01:30I get that with people.
01:01:31I go, you really need...
01:01:32Like, you're going to die on the hill
01:01:34that the RAV4 needs to remain internal combustion.
01:01:37Yes.
01:01:38Really?
01:01:39You know, that's most cars.
01:01:41Well, like them, love them, and, you know,
01:01:44insure them with us someday.
01:01:46Yes.
01:01:47You might have to hold on for a while.
01:01:48Wow.
01:01:49Very, very well done.
01:01:50That was a callback.
01:01:51I like that.
01:01:52That was good.
01:01:53So, among your...
01:01:56What was the first EV you ever got behind the wheel of?
01:02:00It was one...
01:02:01Actually, first, it was one of the early Tesla Roadsters.
01:02:05Yeah, so somebody...
01:02:06I can't remember.
01:02:07It was, you know, one of those demonstration experiences,
01:02:10and you're just like...
01:02:11It was just unimaginable.
01:02:13It was just incredible.
01:02:14Okay.
01:02:15And then first one you purchased?
01:02:17The Taycan.
01:02:18Taycan?
01:02:19Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:02:20All right.
01:02:21I figured I'm going to do it.
01:02:22I'm going to go to the brand nearest my heart.
01:02:24Right.
01:02:25Yeah.
01:02:26Yeah.
01:02:27All right.
01:02:28And then where do you see...
01:02:34Where do you see yourself in the next...
01:02:37You and the business in the next few years?
01:02:39As, you know, we keep...
01:02:40We're very much looking at not just EVs,
01:02:43but this whole...
01:02:44The software-defined vehicles,
01:02:46vehicles that are going to have, you know...
01:02:49I keep going back to this iPhone moment.
01:02:51It wasn't just that the iPhone lost the keyboard
01:02:54and had an all-glass screen.
01:02:55It was, like, the App Store, right?
01:02:56And then from the App Store, you got Uber and Lyft,
01:02:59and some random guy in Times Square
01:03:01is going to pick you up in his personal car
01:03:03and take you to the airport.
01:03:04All this is totally fine.
01:03:05Don't worry.
01:03:06What could go wrong?
01:03:07What could go wrong?
01:03:08Don't talk to strangers.
01:03:09This stuff is...
01:03:10Pay them money, then talk to them.
01:03:12This is now coming to the car supposedly in a big way,
01:03:16and there's going to be some game-changing technology,
01:03:19and, you know, because you're a business person,
01:03:22some monetization capabilities.
01:03:25There's subscription models for features within the car.
01:03:28Like, is any of this stuff...
01:03:30Is there, like, a Hagerty, like, special ops team
01:03:35working on, like, what can we do?
01:03:38Yes, I met three of these new guys
01:03:41we have working for us yesterday
01:03:43who all work for, like, Alphabet agencies,
01:03:45and they're really smart.
01:03:47I was like, wow, you're, like, 12.
01:03:50That's amazing.
01:03:52But you're really smart.
01:03:53Thanks for being here.
01:03:55Well, you know, like, I've got to say, like,
01:03:57one area I am...
01:03:59It's my, like, next area of concern.
01:04:01We talk about the Historic Vehicle Register
01:04:03trying to honor things for their historic value.
01:04:06Another piece of FIVA that I've always been interested in
01:04:09is preserving skills and trades to repair and restore cars.
01:04:14So it's a...
01:04:15I'll get back to your question about, you know,
01:04:17monetization and software.
01:04:19Is...
01:04:21I remember when I first learned from Jay Leno in 1999,
01:04:25I think it was 98 or 99,
01:04:27about McPherson College in Kansas.
01:04:29And so I've been on the advisory board since, like, 2000.
01:04:33And, you know, for people who don't know,
01:04:35it was the first college in the United States
01:04:38with a four-year automotive restoration degree.
01:04:41So you got, like, a bachelor degree
01:04:43and learned to restore cars at the same time.
01:04:46And when we first started, when I learned from Leno,
01:04:49I think there were, like, 19 students in the program,
01:04:51and now it's, like, 140,
01:04:53and they're getting, you know, kids choosing.
01:04:56I was talking to the president, Michael Schneider, Dr. Schneider.
01:04:59He said they're getting kids choosing McPherson
01:05:02over going to MIT
01:05:04because they want to do something with their hands.
01:05:06They want to work on things that, like, use their whole brain.
01:05:10I do worry about the next wave
01:05:13of what restorers are going to have to do.
01:05:15Like, what do you do with 80s and 90s and 2000s cars?
01:05:18Not just cars that can be upgraded with software
01:05:20because, you know, learning to shape a metal panel is one thing.
01:05:24Plastic molding.
01:05:26Well, and all the... not even electronics.
01:05:28Like, complicated electrical systems that don't...
01:05:31that everything wore out or the screens that burned in
01:05:34and your Datsun, you know?
01:05:36I think you could find, like, you know,
01:05:38an iPad-type thing that would fit that.
01:05:40I worry about, like, the plastic molds.
01:05:42You know, that's, like, the...
01:05:44Well, those will probably be 3-D printed,
01:05:46you know, that kind of thing, but I just...
01:05:48I think there's going to be an opportunity,
01:05:50you know, kind of, if you think at the educational level,
01:05:52which is something that we're thinking about.
01:05:54Do we need to be funding kind of the next phase
01:05:56of how do we train people to repair and fix?
01:05:58Like the Radwood generation.
01:06:00Yeah, the Radwood generation of cars that have a lot of plastic,
01:06:03and they had a lot of materials that are gone.
01:06:05And they had a lot of weird tech.
01:06:07Apps loaded via CD.
01:06:09Or my favorite of all time was...
01:06:11I think it was Nissan.
01:06:13Remember, like, you know, like, the door is ajar.
01:06:15It was actually a record, a miniature record player.
01:06:17Probably, yeah.
01:06:19Just before...
01:06:21If you can find my Foghat 8-track...
01:06:23No, no, no, no.
01:06:25I mean, that noise was played off of a record.
01:06:27There was eight tracks on the record,
01:06:29and it would be, like, Fasten Your Seatbelt was a track,
01:06:31and it had a little mini arm that would go and play that.
01:06:34They did what they had to do.
01:06:36You know, if it's a Concorde car,
01:06:38so, like, you know, you have a...
01:06:40Somebody's going to say.
01:06:42You have a Nissan R32Z that you got to put on the lawn.
01:06:44It's going to have that chime in the 94 model.
01:06:47Just to summarize,
01:06:49Mikheil is thinking about the distant future
01:06:51from a restoration perspective,
01:06:53which I think is wild.
01:06:55You're thinking about sort of the future in reverse.
01:06:57Yeah, well, I remember Gordon Murray,
01:06:59first time I met him,
01:07:01he said that the very first meeting
01:07:03with the design team for the F1,
01:07:05he said, we're going to envision a period of time
01:07:0760 years from now.
01:07:09I remember it because he said 60.
01:07:11Like, why not 50? Why not 75? 60 years.
01:07:13Will the average restorer with an average set of skills
01:07:16be able to repair or restore this car?
01:07:18And that was his goal.
01:07:20It was, like, apparently wrote it down.
01:07:22It had to be one of the design principles.
01:07:24And one of the design...
01:07:26The second piece meant that it had to use
01:07:28commonly available materials
01:07:30and be able to be repaired or restored
01:07:32with tools that would be readily available,
01:07:34no exotic materials,
01:07:36and as minimal use of electronics as possible.
01:07:39And in the end,
01:07:41the only funky material
01:07:43in a McLaren F1,
01:07:45like, funky,
01:07:47is the gold foil defroster thing on the windshield
01:07:49because it was like a...
01:07:51Oh, but also the gold heat insulation
01:07:53in the engine bay.
01:07:55Also, it's carbon fiber.
01:07:57Yeah, but that would have not been...
01:07:59That's not that uncommon
01:08:01because a common restorer would have been,
01:08:03when I was growing up, would have worked in fiberglass.
01:08:05So those things aren't too strange.
01:08:07And so that was his concern.
01:08:09I remember, I'm like,
01:08:11what are you worried about?
01:08:13His concern was, he said,
01:08:15okay, so compare a then...
01:08:17This was 10 years ago, probably.
01:08:19Compare a Porsche Turbo S
01:08:21with a Carrera GT.
01:08:23Two fun cars to talk about.
01:08:25Carrera GT, actually,
01:08:27there's very little, very complicated in it.
01:08:29It's just wickedly fast.
01:08:31Astonishingly fast.
01:08:33Porsche Turbo S at the time
01:08:35had a lot more electronics,
01:08:37you know, management,
01:08:39transmission management software,
01:08:41all this sort of thing.
01:08:43And so his point was just an interesting one.
01:08:45So I always try to think in the future and work backwards.
01:08:47His point was actually really cocky,
01:08:49I think, if you think about it.
01:08:51Because he's assuming at the design stage
01:08:53that his car is going to be super successful
01:08:55and someone's going to care about it in 60 years.
01:08:57I don't think that's cocky.
01:08:59He knew he was doing something special.
01:09:01I know.
01:09:03It's a good point.
01:09:05We're starting to see this.
01:09:07We're talking about this with zonal architecture
01:09:09versus whatever.
01:09:11Current Turbo S,
01:09:13probably over 100 microchips,
01:09:15like a 7 Series,
01:09:17probably 180 microchips.
01:09:19Farley talks about lines of code, right?
01:09:21150 million lines of code.
01:09:23Which will be simpler eventually.
01:09:25Because it will be AI.
01:09:27Instead of having, like,
01:09:29we have wires for the cooling system
01:09:31and for the windows and the lights.
01:09:33All different wires. Use the same wire.
01:09:35So we will simplify.
01:09:37But it is a good point.
01:09:39So I just kind of think...
01:09:41I felt like he kind of debunked his own theory.
01:09:43Just because, okay, look.
01:09:45A modern...
01:09:47Your listener, if they sat there and said,
01:09:49no problem figuring out how to reprogram
01:09:51a transmission from a 20-year-old car.
01:09:53I can do it on my laptop.
01:09:55I can download every file of every transmission ever built.
01:09:57Right.
01:09:59And load it up into some module and make that car work.
01:10:01So, like, solved.
01:10:03Okay, Gordon, sorry. Good idea. Thank you.
01:10:05You made it simpler. It's a manual transmission.
01:10:09Plastics. Injection molded plastics.
01:10:11You say, okay, well, we'll 3D print that.
01:10:13Exotic materials, you're right.
01:10:15Okay, gold foil on the windshield.
01:10:17That's pretty wild. That'd be super expensive.
01:10:19Somebody would scratch their head or say,
01:10:21guess what? The windshield is not going to defrost.
01:10:23We're just not going to have this thing.
01:10:25Which might be okay.
01:10:27So, I was kind of thinking,
01:10:29what are we going to need to get there?
01:10:31And then,
01:10:33will people be making cool stuff?
01:10:35And if people are making cool stuff,
01:10:37people will want them, and then people will collect them,
01:10:39and then we'll be there for them.
01:10:41Okay.
01:10:43Last question.
01:10:45Last question.
01:10:47I haven't let you read this, because you got your laptop.
01:10:49Last question.
01:10:51Okay, well, my last question.
01:10:53We talked a little bit about it,
01:10:55but you've done so much
01:10:57in 40 years.
01:10:59You took over as CEO
01:11:012012,
01:11:03and all of the stuff we've talked about
01:11:05has basically happened on your watch.
01:11:07What will
01:11:09your legacy be,
01:11:11or what do you want it to be?
01:11:13Well, what I want to...
01:11:15And apologize, because you're way too young
01:11:17for us to be talking about your legacy, but let's just talk about it.
01:11:19Well, first,
01:11:21I believe in that
01:11:23mission of saving driving and car culture, which means
01:11:25doing a lot more than insurance.
01:11:27It means doing a lot of the things that we are.
01:11:29So, I think,
01:11:31my next job is to make sure that there's
01:11:33a team ready to take it the next
01:11:3540 years, and to make it
01:11:37successful, because I really
01:11:39do worry. All of the kind of
01:11:41sky is falling talk,
01:11:43I think it's solvable
01:11:45for every single instance, for
01:11:47people who really like cars, and they want to drive on
01:11:49public roads, but not without
01:11:51a lot of money,
01:11:53and not without a lot of...
01:11:55An organization like ours, or organizations
01:11:57like ours, wanting to pull people together
01:11:59and to kind of run
01:12:01that common cause. So, I've got to build a team that can do that,
01:12:03a business that can help pay
01:12:05for it. And then, a few
01:12:07things, you know, look, we'll probably do...
01:12:09You know, we're going to... You've got to keep
01:12:11doing media, you've got to...
01:12:13The cool thing about car... We didn't talk about events much,
01:12:15and just kind of name some events.
01:12:17A really wild part of the car world
01:12:19is that people like to get together.
01:12:21And it's just like...
01:12:23Or in a parking lot, or in a...
01:12:25Go for a drive, you know.
01:12:27We are standing so near some of the
01:12:29best driving roads, there's just a lot of cars on them
01:12:31right now. It's that people like to get together
01:12:33and drive. And so, you've got to do that stuff.
01:12:35And so, we're going to build all the
01:12:37platforms, and all the ways for people to have fun
01:12:39doing it. Well, this is a leading last question.
01:12:41And so, you look around
01:12:43and all this stuff. What's missing?
01:12:45What do you see that's missing that
01:12:47you're going to... In the near future? Or the far
01:12:49future? What are you looking to...
01:12:51Which gap are you looking to fill
01:12:53in the car world? Yeah.
01:12:55I mean, I think...
01:12:57You know, look. I like dealing
01:12:59with good people. I like, you know,
01:13:01kind of the trust factors and all the stuff
01:13:03that we've done.
01:13:05I think there's a lot
01:13:07of things around the data, around early cars
01:13:09that is going to need a lot of cleaning up
01:13:11and some of those things to make sure that, okay,
01:13:13if
01:13:15someday you really wanted to drive that
01:13:17Model T in LA, but you have to prove that it
01:13:19was really a 1915
01:13:21Model T, somebody's got to be
01:13:23able to prove that that is kind of what it is.
01:13:25So, like, those are some of the things I think about
01:13:2750 years from now. What's it going to take for
01:13:29your buddy to drive his Model T
01:13:31in LA? So,
01:13:33some of that's going to be data. Some of it's going to be, maybe,
01:13:35better government
01:13:37relations. Some of those types
01:13:39of things, like, not sexy, but it's going to
01:13:41have to be done.
01:13:43A lot of these skills and trades things to
01:13:45carry it forward, like, do we need
01:13:47different schools? Should we be funding
01:13:49some shop classes again? You know, like,
01:13:51I grew up in an era when,
01:13:53you know, young people used to be able to go
01:13:55shop. It was kind of, you either chose shop or
01:13:57home ec when I was going through it, or band.
01:13:59I kind of did band, so we'll
01:14:01skip that because I was working on cars at home.
01:14:03What needs to...
01:14:05What do we need to fund to get that
01:14:07happening? The good news, like, about the data
01:14:09though, like, when people say the sky is falling and young
01:14:11people don't like cars, it's like, yeah, they
01:14:13do. Oh, some really do.
01:14:15They absolutely do. They're just... One, they learn about
01:14:17them differently, right? You know,
01:14:19you mentioned car and driver.
01:14:21We've, you know, 75th anniversary of Motor Trend.
01:14:23Like, this is... We have been in this amazing
01:14:25era of automotive media.
01:14:27The game universe is a really
01:14:29important part of how the next gen
01:14:31is listening to cars, so, you know, or
01:14:33learning about cars. So, you think, you know, Forza,
01:14:35Gran Turismo, they're super
01:14:37important for our future. Right. So, we gotta
01:14:39have them. We need them, we need to support
01:14:41them, and we need to... So, Hagerty the video game
01:14:43is what I'm hearing. Well, no, and you literally
01:14:45just... And now I gotta ask another question
01:14:47because it's on here and I forgot to ask you.
01:14:49You were in Gran Turismo 7.
01:14:51You were in there... I'm an avatar or whatever.
01:14:53Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. You were,
01:14:55what, describing cars that you can...
01:14:57Yeah, I'm like the...
01:14:59I'm like the mayor of the
01:15:01historic car garage in there. So, I
01:15:03get, like, when people earn
01:15:05enough credits, they can buy
01:15:07historic cars, and I explain what
01:15:09they are and what they would be worth, and
01:15:11it's pretty cool. You notice the theme here. He's always
01:15:13at the whipped
01:15:15cream end of the car
01:15:17space, even in a video game.
01:15:19You know, I was in Forza 7.
01:15:21I was, yeah. I shot
01:15:23the... I think I shot
01:15:25the original game... I shot one of the
01:15:27original game covers for one
01:15:29of those 20 years ago. I just went through... Oh, my gosh.
01:15:31You found it. They're terrible.
01:15:33You've come a long way. I've come a long way.
01:15:35I mean...
01:15:37Alright, I do have one last
01:15:39question that came up while you were talking.
01:15:41And this one, you may not
01:15:43be able to or want to answer this one.
01:15:45The Baby Boom generation
01:15:47is set to
01:15:49retire or...
01:15:51Has retired.
01:15:53Yeah, has retired. Expired might be the word.
01:15:55Do, you know, pass on
01:15:57the greatest wealth transfer in generations.
01:15:59What about their cars?
01:16:01Are we going to see the bottom
01:16:03fallout for a lot of that era
01:16:05of vehicles, which I think
01:16:07powered...
01:16:09I think if you want to consider it, the
01:16:11first generation of
01:16:13the auction scene, like the Barrett
01:16:15Jackson auctions that we've been living through
01:16:17for 20 years, right? I keep seeing
01:16:19all these hot rods cross the stage, and I'm just going,
01:16:21are we
01:16:23at the peak? Are we past the peak?
01:16:25How do you
01:16:27see that era of vehicles?
01:16:29Because you're now dealing with...
01:16:31If I may, but before
01:16:33you answer, to add on to that,
01:16:35pre-war stuff
01:16:37that's big value,
01:16:39like when we saw each other on the Mercedes rally,
01:16:41those were $25 million
01:16:43cars. To who?
01:16:45I think those still stay relevant.
01:16:47I'm talking
01:16:49about this huge blister caused by...
01:16:51No, no, but we always talk
01:16:53about this. There's been...
01:16:55If you discount the first
01:16:57couple years at Pebble Beach, there's been
01:16:59one post-war car
01:17:01on the lawn. That one,
01:17:03best of show, it was a 53 Ferrari.
01:17:05Weird body, blah, blah.
01:17:07Really weird body.
01:17:09And so
01:17:11when does this...
01:17:13What he's saying, but also
01:17:15when does that...
01:17:17Is that going to change?
01:17:19Does it have to change?
01:17:21Look, they have to be aspirational.
01:17:23People have to be able to see them.
01:17:25People have to have money to buy them.
01:17:27When we looked at that data,
01:17:29for example, in the late teens, when everybody said,
01:17:31oh my gosh, it's over. Young people don't want cars.
01:17:33They're getting their driver's license later.
01:17:35It's like, now a lot of that data
01:17:37is actually right after the financial
01:17:39crisis of 08-09,
01:17:41and there were a lot of fresh-out-of-college people
01:17:43who were having trouble finding jobs.
01:17:45So they're certainly not buying Ferraris for Pebble Beach.
01:17:47But that was 08-09,
01:17:49so maybe they're close to a Ferrari
01:17:51at Pebble Beach now, some of them.
01:17:53And it doesn't take everybody.
01:17:55It just takes a passionate few.
01:17:57And it's always been that way.
01:17:59The car world's always been that way.
01:18:01And I'm not a big art world person,
01:18:03but probably the art world is the same way.
01:18:05You know all the collectors.
01:18:07I know wine, but I know bourbon.
01:18:09I know all the bourbon collectors.
01:18:11There you go.
01:18:13Well, so the Pappy's isn't for everybody
01:18:15because it's super expensive,
01:18:17but you want somebody to want it.
01:18:19Well, some Pappy.
01:18:21This is the artisanal cheese of the bourbon world here.
01:18:23If it's the Pappy distilled at Stitzel Weller,
01:18:25yes.
01:18:27The point is, it's got to be aspirational.
01:18:29There has to be an economy that values
01:18:31things like this.
01:18:33If it's, boy, the only way you can ever get
01:18:35in a transportation
01:18:37environment is it's some publicly
01:18:39owned vehicle,
01:18:41that would be very, very different.
01:18:43So to me, it's true.
01:18:45The Baby Boomer generation,
01:18:47they're aging. They were the largest car
01:18:49collecting generation.
01:18:51But my father was the
01:18:53generation older, and they were a big car collecting
01:18:55generation. I think what you're going to
01:18:57see is maybe, I mean,
01:18:59not the bottom falling out, but you are
01:19:01going to see some great buys.
01:19:03So it's a chance like anything else.
01:19:05It's going to be great for those people
01:19:07who like them. It's not for everybody.
01:19:09There are going to be some great buys coming out,
01:19:11and we'll see how
01:19:13this all works out.
01:19:15You know, it's
01:19:17as long as these generations keep getting
01:19:19bigger, which is an interesting, you know,
01:19:21if you think about it, the Millennials were the
01:19:23children of Baby Boomers.
01:19:25And two huge generations.
01:19:27I was kind of sandwiched in the middle as a Gen Xer.
01:19:29You know, big generations,
01:19:31if they can do these things, I think the
01:19:33cars will be aspirational. People will want
01:19:35them. So I'm not, I don't have a
01:19:37sky as far, I'm not, I don't want to be, I don't want to
01:19:39have sort of rose-colored glasses
01:19:41either, but I think there's
01:19:43reason to be optimistic, and
01:19:45if we kind of work at it, if we like
01:19:47it, they'll be there.
01:19:49Okay. That's a great way
01:19:51on that note to end.
01:19:53It's not inevitable, but it's almost inevitable.
01:19:55Nearly inevitable.
01:19:57Almost inevitable.
01:19:59Well, Mikiel,
01:20:01thank you so much for coming.
01:20:03We did run out of time before we ran out of topics,
01:20:05but we'll have to have you back on
01:20:07for the next big anniversary, or
01:20:09sooner, but thank you.
01:20:11It's the 100th.
01:20:13We won't be here.
01:20:15But the air conditioning will.
01:20:17Hey!
01:20:19Thank you.
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