MotorTrend's Ed Loh & Jonny Lieberman sit down with The Mobility House's CEO North America
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00:00Welcome to The Inevitable, a podcast by MotorTrend.
00:15Hi there, and welcome to another episode of The Inevitable.
00:19This is MotorTrend's podcast, our vodcast about the future of the automobile,
00:24the future of transportation, the future of energy, the future of power management.
00:29I'm Jonny Lieberman, this is Ed Lowe.
00:31Hello.
00:31We have a very interesting guest this week, this gentleman from Mobility House.
00:35But before we get there, Ed's got a message for you and maybe a question or two.
00:39Yes.
00:40The Inevitable Vodcast is brought to you by the all-electric Nissan Aria,
00:43inspired by the future, designed for the now.
00:47And right now, as always, we have our question of the show.
00:50And this comes to us via email from a gentleman by the name of Andrew Bigler.
00:54I am seeing more articles pop up about battery technology
00:58advancing to where the range could be 2x or 3x out of a normal car,
01:03making EVs less fraught with range anxiety concerns.
01:06How soon could we see that in a production vehicle?
01:10So let's unpack this a little bit.
01:11I think when he says 2 to 3x out of a normal car,
01:13we're reading normal car as what, any car?
01:15300 miles per gas tank, yeah.
01:17So 2 to 3x, he's talking to maybe 600 to 900 miles of range.
01:21Yep.
01:22So Toyota, well, first of all, real quick, there's no more range anxiety.
01:26It's charging anxiety.
01:27We've got ranges figured out, but it's hard to charge.
01:29Second of all, Toyota said they're going to have solid-state battery tech.
01:33And they specifically said 900 miles per charge.
01:37And they said they'll have it by 2025.
01:39But our buddy, we talked to his CES, Fabrizio Martini,
01:42greatest name in the car industry, besides Jun's con.
01:45I'm not sure if he's still in the car industry.
01:47He said, and some of the people told me this too,
01:50that the manufacturing, commercial manufacturing of solid-state batteries
01:54is basically, with existing technology, impossible.
01:57There's some very thin membrane that shatters once it's produced
02:01or shatters during the process.
02:03So somebody will figure that out.
02:06But we've also, look, in a previous episode,
02:08one of our best actually from last year, we had Mujib Ijaz on from RNEXT Energy.
02:12And he was talking about their RNEXT Energy's Gemini battery
02:16pack, which was two different chemistries in the same pack.
02:19And it's one for your acceleration, deceleration, day-to-day driving,
02:24and then the other pack for longer steady-state cruising.
02:29And they were able to demonstrate in a Tesla
02:32that it could go 600 miles on a full charge.
02:36And that pack is apparently coming this year to BMW iXs, is my understanding.
02:42So that's the story.
02:43There's lots.
02:44It's going to keep getting better and better and better.
02:47You're going to see graphite cathodes replaced by silicon cathodes.
02:50We'll get to that later.
02:52But yeah, to your question, how soon can we see the production vehicle,
02:55this year, I think, starting with some brands, including BMW, in the US.
03:00Globally, there's already car manufacturers
03:02delivering cars with some pretty high range.
03:04And of course, Lucid has already been out there with their highest performing.
03:08They're the 516 out of the Grand Touring.
03:12And current long-range king for a production vehicle.
03:14Gravity should beat that, because gravity has slightly new motors.
03:19And he's talking over like five or even six miles per kilowatt,
03:23which 112, 600 mile range.
03:26But I think solid state's the next really huge jump.
03:29And that seems to be 2029 or so.
03:33At the earliest.
03:34So thank you, Andrew, for your question.
03:36You'll be getting a care package here, as others have just
03:40received their care packages.
03:42Thank you for your question.
03:42Expect to have a shirt, some fun stuff from some of our previous guests.
03:46Your question is actually very timely, because it talks a lot about, hey,
03:51what are we going to do once the batteries have
03:54all of this range baked in?
03:55Well, we have two gentlemen from the Mobility House, Greg and Zoe,
04:01who are going to tell us what they do and their plans
04:05for leveraging all of this capacity.
04:08Their master plan for controlling all the power.
04:10All the power.
04:11And just quickly on them, Greg is the CEO of the Mobility House North America.
04:18And Zoe is short for, I may not butcher his name, Zoheb Devar.
04:23He's a head of business development and growth at the Mobility House.
04:27He's based in Silicon Valley.
04:29Based in Germany.
04:31Based in Silicon Valley.
04:32Yes, he's German.
04:33But the US operation is based in just south of San Francisco.
04:37Belmont.
04:38But it sounds like the German company is about five years
04:39ahead of the American company, which it
04:41seems like in the electrical space is sadly kind of becoming the norm.
04:45But they're here.
04:47And they're going to tell us all about what Mobility House can do for you.
04:51All right.
04:52Greg, Zoe, thank you so much for coming on to the show.
04:58How about you're the CEO.
05:01Greg, give us the-
05:0310,000 foot view.
05:04Or what do they call it?
05:06The elevator pitch.
05:07Give us the briefest synopsis of what does the Mobility House do?
05:12Excellent.
05:13Well, thanks so much for having us.
05:15Mobility House wants to do nothing more than create a zero emission
05:19transportation and energy future.
05:20Oh, that's it?
05:21OK.
05:21Cool.
05:22Done.
05:22Next.
05:23Yeah.
05:25And it's obviously a long road to get there.
05:28But right now, we are trying to create a new product that's called Zero Zero.
05:34It's zero emission charging at zero cost.
05:38That, too, sounds pretty ambitious.
05:40And it is.
05:41And so that's what we're rolling out now in Europe
05:45and are intended to also bring here to the US
05:49and launch our first product in the US.
05:51So zero emissions, I think, makes sense to most people.
05:53How does zero cost work?
05:55Well, that's going to be a long story.
05:57Yeah.
05:58Well, here we go.
05:59You got about 59 minutes.
06:02So let's go.
06:04Well, the most expensive part of an electric vehicle
06:09is obviously the battery.
06:10And so we're using that part of the vehicle.
06:14We're using the battery to generate value for the power grid.
06:19We can do that in a variety of different ways
06:22by providing different services to the grid,
06:24by taking advantage of spreads in the electricity market
06:29where there are open and accessible electricity markets.
06:34And we're using the revenue that we can generate with the battery
06:38to provide a cheap electricity tariff.
06:43OK.
06:44So in other words, you have green energy being produced,
06:48windmills or solar panels, hydro.
06:52I don't know.
06:53You guys, if you include atomic energy in Germany,
06:55and I know in France they would.
06:57Here, we think of it as green.
06:59And you got to store this energy somewhere
07:02if it's not going directly into a socket.
07:04So you would use EV batteries, meaning
07:06the battery in somebody's car, to temporarily store it.
07:11And then you could take advantage of the energies being produced
07:14during the day, but it's cheaper to sell it
07:16at night or something like that.
07:17And that would get you the split, as you were saying.
07:20And that's where the profit would come from that would
07:22pay for the zero cost part of it.
07:24Is that?
07:25That's exactly.
07:26And that's division for where we actually
07:29have bidirectionally capable vehicles and chargers
07:32and where the policy framework is available to do so.
07:35In the meantime, you can do a ton of stuff
07:37with unidirectional managed charging.
07:40So just explain what you mean.
07:42What's the difference?
07:43Bidirectional, explain the difference between the two.
07:45Yeah, for sure.
07:47So unidirectional is what we're doing today.
07:50We're taking electricity from the grid
07:52and putting it into the battery.
07:56We're taking electricity from a solar panel
07:59that we have on the roof.
08:01Now, bidirectional charging is where
08:02we would be able to take electricity that
08:05is stored in the vehicle's battery
08:07and put it back onto the power grid
08:09or put it back into a home, for instance.
08:15Unidirectional managed charging means
08:17that rather than plugging in and starting to charge right now
08:22as you plug in, we wait for the most advantageous time
08:27to charge.
08:28Right.
08:29And people, I think, that have EVs,
08:31we have an EV and we program it,
08:34don't start charging until 8 p.m.
08:36because in Los Angeles that's when the cheapest rate is.
08:38Be done charging by 10 a.m.
08:40I don't care if it's full or not
08:42because it gets expensive at that.
08:43And feel free to charge on the weekends
08:45because the weekend it's the same rate, 24 hours a day.
08:48I think EV owners are kind of used to that.
08:50If you have a tiered rate plan,
08:52I have a tiered rate plan where I have off-peak,
08:54super off-peak and peak, right?
08:56Right, super off-peak's 8 p.m., yeah.
08:57Right, so I think, yeah, I set mine to charge
08:59from 9 until 8 in the morning.
09:02Sure, whatever, yeah, it varies.
09:03We're in slightly different cities, but okay.
09:06And then why not, this sounds like a no-brainer, right?
09:12You know, it's like, great.
09:13Well, I got some questions.
09:14Okay, but hang on, but what's the holdup?
09:17Why, first of all, I know bidirectional EVs
09:20are pretty rare right now.
09:24Like, is that a policy thing?
09:26Is that a technology thing?
09:29Like, why isn't this just happening automatically?
09:31Why do you have to get involved?
09:33Yeah, it's a great question.
09:34It's all the above.
09:36Okay.
09:36There are challenges on the policy level.
09:39There are challenges on the regulatory level.
09:41There are challenges as it relates
09:43to the vehicles and the chargers.
09:46What are the policy?
09:48Like, who would prevent this?
09:49Like, who would be against this?
09:51There are certain laws that you need to follow,
09:54regulations that you need to follow
09:55to connect an electric vehicle with the grid
09:59when it is in bidirectional mode,
10:01just like you would have to follow certain regulations
10:03for a battery that you connect to the grid
10:06or for solar that you connect to the grid.
10:08So in other words, like your local,
10:11like we have Department of Water and Power in LA,
10:13DWP, we call it, they'd have to come
10:15and like, they'd have to approve the vehicle,
10:19the battery or something, to get that granular.
10:23The charger in that case, yeah.
10:27And so right now there are, you know,
10:30for other DERs, distributed energy resources
10:34like storage, like solar, there is regulation
10:37and there are standards out there.
10:39And those standards aren't as clear yet
10:41for bidirectional chargers.
10:43And is this a U.S. issue or in Europe,
10:46is it worse, better?
10:51I think almost every jurisdiction has some challenges
10:55and some specificities.
10:57So new technology is trying to fit into old laws
10:59and that's all problematic.
11:01There's a lot at stake here, right?
11:02There's the ability for a private person now
11:06to put solar panels on the roof,
11:09create some amount of energy,
11:11use it to charge whatever, power their home,
11:14charge their vehicle, right?
11:15Takes away money from whom?
11:17From an established grid, established, you know,
11:20it's maybe government or partly private,
11:23partly government owned.
11:25There's a lot of people like,
11:26hmm, I don't know how I feel about this.
11:27So I mean, our man Scott Evans put install solar
11:30on his house by himself and the amount of paperwork
11:33he had to do to get it approved,
11:36to connect it even just to his home,
11:39let alone, I don't think he's even done
11:41the bidirectional piece, was insane.
11:42Well, I mean, we, yeah, we, I mean, we're all.
11:44They don't make it easy.
11:45Yeah, no.
11:45But let's, let me ask one question about this.
11:48What is it?
11:49It's not a physical product.
11:52It's an, is it an app right now?
11:54It's something you sign up for as a car owner, right?
11:57I was going through and doing a little research
11:59and one of your sort of, one of the theses,
12:02one of the points is that 95% of,
12:04or sorry, an EV spends like 95% of its time parked, right?
12:08So you think about, and this goes along with,
12:12I saw some management consulting documents,
12:13McKinsey or Pricewaterhouse said,
12:16you know, the utility rate of cars is actually quite low,
12:19specifically in nations like America where you,
12:22it's parked.
12:24Our cars are parked right now.
12:25They're not autonomously driving
12:26and creating value for us.
12:27They're just sitting there.
12:29We both, oh, yeah.
12:30We both would normally drive an electric car here.
12:32There's a large volume of energy just sitting there
12:35in the battery that could be doing something else,
12:37which is sort of one of the foundational points of this,
12:40of your product.
12:42But what is the product?
12:43That's exactly right.
12:45Vehicles sitting around,
12:47a lot of us have second vehicles that sit around even more
12:51and we want to utilize those assets more efficiently
12:54and create value with them.
12:56And the product that we are providing is one,
12:58an application for the driver to be able to see
13:01what's happening with their charging,
13:03to set certain charging preferences.
13:05For instance, you always want to be able to have
13:08at least a 40% state of charge
13:11so that you can get to a hospital
13:13or make a little trip unplanned and so on.
13:17And we then manage according to those preferences,
13:24the charging, not just of an individual vehicle,
13:27but of an aggregated fleet of vehicle
13:31that can be an aggregated fleet of vehicles
13:33within a large service territory of a utility
13:36or within entire market like Germany.
13:40And that aggregation then provides the basis
13:45for our trading desk.
13:47So we have a trading desk that participates
13:50in the electricity markets and can sell
13:54and buy electricity on the spot
13:58based on what we have available in terms of flexibility.
14:02We call flexibility the total amount of electricity,
14:06total amount of power that we can either ramp up
14:08or ramp down with the vehicles
14:10that we control the charging off.
14:13Okay. Interesting.
14:14And then like in terms of scale,
14:16like how many, would your master plan be
14:19eventually you control all vehicles charging?
14:22Is that how you think about it?
14:24Or is it, mobility house is just going to do like 10%
14:28or something like what's your, how do you,
14:30talk to people, what's your scale?
14:32Our plan is certainly to be the dominant player
14:35in the space, but we believe that there will be
14:37a number of different players at least early on
14:39and there will be a certain amount of consolidation
14:41later on for sure.
14:43What about like physical limitations?
14:46Like does, you know, we, a lot of, let's say EV doubters,
14:49you know, oh, the grid can't handle anything,
14:51the grid, the grid, the grid.
14:53Is there any issue with like existing grids
14:56or you guys don't, doesn't really make a difference
14:58for your business case?
15:01Certainly we're seeing today already at, you know,
15:051% electrification across the country more or less
15:08when you look at the total number of vehicles on the road.
15:14There are places on the grid that are already struggling
15:17both on the residential side.
15:19So for instance, in, you know, the Bay area,
15:22you have in PG&E territory, for instance,
15:24you have a lot of individual residential homes
15:28that only have 100 kilowatt panels.
15:31Sure.
15:32And, sorry, 100 amp panels.
15:33And so that's, you know, a challenge right there.
15:37Right, because it's about $5,000 to upgrade
15:40out of the consumer's pocket.
15:41Exactly, exactly.
15:43And then on the-
15:43The state's not stepping in.
15:45Yeah, that's right.
15:46And on the commercial side though,
15:48it's even more of an issue.
15:49And that's where we're currently focused on
15:51with our products here in the United States
15:54because we can avoid some of those upgrades.
15:58And practically every site, every one of our customers
16:03triggers an upgrade when they start to electrify.
16:05What do you mean by triggers an upgrade?
16:07It's a great question.
16:08Zoe, do you want to share some stories
16:11from some of our customers?
16:13Yeah, so what do you do?
16:14What do you do towards this mission?
16:15Yeah, so Greg brought me in five years ago
16:18to co-found the U.S. division of the Mobility House.
16:23You know, Europe kicked off EVs,
16:26electrification of transportation.
16:28You know, Tesla comes from the U.S.,
16:31so it seems like the U.S. is a big player,
16:33but in Europe, it kicked off far earlier.
16:36And so we brought the technology over
16:39from Europe to the U.S.
16:42And I was previously, I think five years ago,
16:45with a fast charging network.
16:48And I was running the numbers,
16:49looking at millions of lines of data
16:51and realized even with subsidies in seven years,
16:55none of these sites were really profitable
16:58because of these crazy demand charges and utility rates.
17:01And so I found the Mobility House
17:04and this idea of charge management,
17:06the software to manage the charging early on.
17:09And so the Mobility House has had
17:10this sort of three-phase approach.
17:13It was founded 15 years ago.
17:15So the first phase was just getting people electrified,
17:18learning what electric vehicles are,
17:19what's a kilowatt, what's a kilowatt hour,
17:21consulting, selling chargers.
17:23We've resold over 400,000 chargers.
17:26And then phase two, when I joined
17:28and I learned about charge management
17:29was making the economics work out
17:32for electric vehicles charging.
17:34So if you don't manage the costs, it doesn't work.
17:37And that includes managing the electricity
17:39to stay under certain grid limits,
17:41which we're talking about now.
17:43And so that's charge management.
17:44And we have a system where we manage
17:46over 1,700 depots charging,
17:49which includes school buses, transit buses,
17:51commercial vehicles.
17:51In the U.S.?
17:52Across the world.
17:53Okay.
17:54And then what we've been talking about today.
17:57So far is this third phase,
17:57which is utilizing the battery capacity of vehicles
18:01to be assets for the grid, not liabilities.
18:04And to your point, Johnny, why is this gonna happen?
18:07I don't know what's gonna happen in the future,
18:08but I'm American and I can count
18:10on Americans being capitalists.
18:12And there's so much value in these batteries
18:16that that's why we believe it's gonna happen.
18:18Explain that, what value in the battery?
18:20Yeah, so right now, I think with the number
18:23of electric vehicles in the U.S.,
18:25it's something like three million.
18:27And that would equate to something like 150 gigawatt hours
18:31of battery storage capacity.
18:33That alone is billions and billions of dollars
18:36worth of energy storage value.
18:38Just sitting.
18:39Just sitting.
18:40In batteries doing nothing.
18:4195% of the time.
18:4295% of the time, nothing's happening,
18:43to billions of dollars.
18:44Exactly.
18:45And yeah, so MBAs hear of that and they freak out.
18:48Like, you know, privatize social security.
18:50Privatize your battery.
18:52Yeah, okay.
18:53I gotcha, I gotcha.
18:54And by 2030, we're supposed to hit 30 million EVs.
18:58So 10x that.
18:59Right.
19:00So why wouldn't we use these assets?
19:03And to put that into context,
19:05150 gigawatt hours of battery capacity
19:10is about a fourth of what we currently have
19:14in total energy storage capacity
19:17that includes pumped hydro, you know,
19:19our large hydro dams,
19:21and utility scale battery storage.
19:23That's a huge amount of energy.
19:25It's a huge amount of energy.
19:26Today, one-fourth of total capacity already.
19:29Wow.
19:30In 2030?
19:31It'll be three times that, or whatever.
19:32Exactly.
19:33Whatever the math is.
19:34Wait, wait, total capacity for the US?
19:35Total capacity for the US
19:37is about 650 gigawatt hours.
19:41What's our, for, I, this is,
19:43you guys are into numbers that I don't use very often.
19:46What's the average power usage in the US on a daily basis?
19:50Do you have something like that, or?
19:51Per house or something?
19:52No, I mean, as a country.
19:54Oh, as a country?
19:54How much is this, does this storage,
19:57could it be used up in a day?
19:58Like, is this like, hey,
19:59it'll keep everything lights on during the Super Bowl,
20:01or no?
20:03That's a really great stat to get on our marketing decks.
20:08Yeah, it's a good question,
20:09and it depends on when, what time of the year.
20:12Like, right now, are you familiar with the duck curve?
20:15No.
20:15Okay, the duck curve, it's like-
20:18Shaped like a duck?
20:18It's shaped like a duck.
20:19Oh, sweet.
20:20It's a craft.
20:21Yeah, I know what a duck looks like.
20:23You know what a duck looks like?
20:24It has a belly.
20:25Okay.
20:26And because everyone wakes up,
20:28and then starts using more and more power throughout the day,
20:31the typical energy demand curve looks like a normal curve.
20:35But with the addition of solar over the past five, 10 years,
20:39the middle part of the day has been zeroing out,
20:41so there's a big belly of the duck.
20:43Yep.
20:44So, yeah.
20:47This, we could be utilizing the battery,
20:51the energy stored during that middle of the day
20:53that creates the belly of the duck to deploy.
20:56Because my home electricity bill spikes
21:01at five o'clock, four o'clock, everybody goes home.
21:03So in the summer, it's hot, so you turn your AC on,
21:06you gotta cook dinner, you're watching your TV,
21:09and it peaks all the way until about nine, 10 o'clock.
21:11Exactly.
21:12And then it plummets again.
21:13Then that's been exacerbated,
21:14because that's when the sun goes down,
21:16and we lose solar.
21:17So, to your question, that depends on the time of the year.
21:20So, in spring, right around now,
21:22there's some energy nerds that are probably my friends,
21:26who I might love, have called it duck curve day.
21:29Because we don't really use our ACs yet.
21:32Right.
21:33Though we might want to in this room.
21:34Right.
21:35You hear that?
21:37This is such an ironic conversation I'm having.
21:40But there is enough sunlight, right?
21:43So you're getting a lot of generation from solar
21:46without a lot of energy load.
21:48And so, right now, it's different than peak August,
21:52when everyone has their ACs on.
21:54So, I think in August, I don't know the exact numbers,
21:57but it's something like 1,000 gigawatts
22:00of power generation max.
22:02And on average, we use like a third of that
22:05across the US on any given day.
22:06Okay.
22:10This is great.
22:10This is super interesting.
22:11I think you guys are looking very far into the future.
22:16I think the crucial sort of psychological barrier
22:21that most of this audience who listens,
22:23or who's hate listening right now,
22:24because they're like,
22:25well, I'd rather hear about internal combustion cars.
22:27They're like, what are you even talking about?
22:29Most people are just worried about the battery
22:31and getting home.
22:32And they don't realize that we're rapidly approaching
22:35this point with the products, with the cars,
22:38where batteries are huge, the vehicles are efficient,
22:43you have more charge than you know what to do with, really.
22:46Like I have this F-150 Lightning,
22:48and I charge maybe once every 10 days,
22:51like nine or 10 days.
22:52And that's going to like the 80 to 90%.
22:54And real quick, the Lightning gets like two miles
22:56a kilowatt with 135 kilowatt hour battery.
22:59That Lucid Gravity, which is about to come out.
23:01It's like four.
23:02No, he's saying five.
23:03It's going to do five miles a kilowatt
23:06with 112 kilowatt hour battery.
23:08You'll never use it.
23:09Unless you're on a road trip.
23:10Super duper efficient.
23:11So you guys are like already thinking past
23:13the point where everybody is like much more relaxed
23:16and calm and like understand that they don't need
23:19like 80% of that giant battery all the time.
23:22Like, how do we make money off of this?
23:24So this is a cool idea.
23:26Let's go, let's work backwards down to the average Joe.
23:30You, Zoe, you're doing the BD side.
23:32So you're talking to like companies
23:34with large fleets of electric vehicles
23:35where they have like probably like, you know,
23:37thousands of big battery vehicles sitting around.
23:42How much money can they, I don't know how you say it,
23:46save or make if they managed their charge
23:51efficiently or correctly?
23:53Yeah, it's material.
23:55And we're, as you said, we're working with a lot
23:58of school buses and transit buses
24:00and those are really big batteries.
24:02And we run simulations.
24:04And they don't move a lot.
24:05And they don't move a lot.
24:06They have the same, they can move.
24:09No, no, no, what I mean is like they definitely,
24:10there's two days a week they don't do anything.
24:12Oh, school buses.
24:13Yeah, that's right.
24:14Yeah, yeah, yeah.
24:14Transit bus would be different.
24:15Yes, exactly.
24:16But you're saying they have a constant loop.
24:17You know exactly what they're doing.
24:19You know exactly what they're doing.
24:21There's been three reasons I would say
24:23why those two vehicle types have been this sandbox
24:29for the EV industry the past five years,
24:31which, you know, you wouldn't equate transit buses
24:33with innovation, but they have been for three reasons.
24:36One, there's been federal and state funding for them.
24:39Two is because they go in a loop,
24:41you know, have predictable routes and duty cycles,
24:45which is what we call routes.
24:47And then three, you know, kids shouldn't be breathing
24:51in fumes, like you'll have an outside impact on their lives
24:54or people who need to take public transit,
24:57disadvantaged communities.
24:58So yeah, we've run simulations and it's really material.
25:02I think, I forget which fleet, it's been years now,
25:06but something like $300,000 a year in cost savings
25:10just by managing the charging with software.
25:12And so it's just a win, win, win,
25:15meaning a win for the fleet, they save money.
25:19We generate money, it's a win for us.
25:21And the utility gets a flatter load, so they win too.
25:24Now let's abstract this all the way down to the consumer.
25:28Let's say, you know, Johnny's got a Rivian,
25:30I got a 750 at home, I download your app,
25:33I put my signer's sign up for this,
25:36and I can now contribute energy from,
25:41or we can contribute energy from our vehicle's battery
25:43while it's parked and plugged into our home or business.
25:49Are we gonna be millionaires?
25:50What's going on?
25:51Like, can I buy a cup of coffee every day?
25:53Is this just a class action lawsuit technology?
25:56What's this, why, what's in it for me?
25:58Yeah.
25:59Absolutely, great question.
26:00Let's split up between commercial vehicles
26:02and residential vehicles.
26:05So you and I, what are we gonna get out of it?
26:08Well, our vision is zero cost, zero emissions.
26:12Okay.
26:13Yeah, zero cost is good.
26:14I mean, it's expensive.
26:14Charge for free.
26:16Yeah, it is expensive.
26:17Will that be possible today, everywhere?
26:19Absolutely no.
26:20You know, we're starting it in Germany right now,
26:23we're rolling out France and the UK later this year,
26:27and we're gonna launch a small deployment
26:31in the U.S. end of this year.
26:34And where are you gonna launch it at?
26:35It's going to be likely in Texas,
26:37because Texas, the electricity market is very different
26:40than here in California, for instance.
26:41Oh, we're gonna talk about Texas, this is great.
26:43Okay, perfect.
26:44It's very analogous, or the most analogous
26:48to the European energy market.
26:52Oh, don't tell the Texans that.
26:54I know, I know.
26:56Well, yeah, it's a deregulated market.
26:59Right, right, right.
27:00I think, you know, for us as capitalists,
27:04as I was saying, the United States is actually,
27:07you know, what we have here in California
27:09is not very capitalist, it's a very regulated market.
27:12Yeah, the Texans feel that way, too.
27:14All right.
27:14Look at that, car before you.
27:16Yeah, okay.
27:18So then, what do you get on the commercial side?
27:21Let's say you're running a school bus fleet
27:24or a public transit fleet or, you know, a delivery fleet.
27:28Well, most of those fleets today already
27:33are seeing challenges with getting
27:36their charging infrastructure installed on a timely basis.
27:41They're ordering vehicles and often then find out,
27:44okay, I'm gonna get my vehicles in half a year,
27:48but to get the utility to upgrade my service,
27:51to get me enough power on my site,
27:54it's gonna be a year or two years, sometimes three years,
27:58and it's going to cost me a million or $2 million.
28:01Right.
28:03And so that's where we can come in
28:05and help you with our software to avoid those upgrades.
28:11Okay, so in other words,
28:12you wouldn't have to do any infrastructure upgrades
28:15because the software can handle whatever they need
28:19on the existing infrastructure.
28:22Exactly.
28:23We optimize when and how much each vehicle charges,
28:26and we take advantage of the flexibility
28:28that the different vehicles have
28:31in terms of their driving schedules
28:33to make sure that the vehicles are still charged
28:36when they need to be.
28:37They will be charged at the lowest cost,
28:39and they will be charged with the constraint
28:41of the available power on site.
28:44And then, I guess-
28:45Within limits, right?
28:46Like if I say, hey, Johnny and I have a company,
28:48it's got one outlet, it's 220,
28:50and we have 12 huge pickup trucks,
28:52you guys would be like, yeah, no.
28:54Absolutely, absolutely.
28:55It's all within the limits that, what's reasonable.
29:00In the end, as we're going towards 100% electrification,
29:04yes, there will be grid upgrades needed.
29:07So we're buying you time and we're buying you money.
29:10And even the upgrade that you're looking at
29:12might be a lot less than if you planned
29:16in the traditional American way,
29:19which is 100% of nameplate capacity
29:24plus some security buffer.
29:26Right.
29:27So what does this look like?
29:29I get that from, I guess, the business side,
29:31but from the consumer side,
29:33and I'm just thinking about like EVs
29:35that I've plugged into the charger at my house, let's say.
29:39It seems like the charger is talking to the car,
29:43like if you guys, it's like Mobility House is an app.
29:47How does Mobility House talk to the vehicle to say,
29:50hey, charge now?
29:52How is that handled?
29:54We have a telematics integration with the vehicle,
29:57so we can talk directly to the vehicle.
29:59And when it comes to unidirectional charging,
30:02when you're talking about bidirectional charging,
30:05you do have to talk to the charger.
30:08Okay, so would there be a Mobility House charger
30:12that you would put on the property?
30:14It would be a charger that we are integrated,
30:18compatible charger, exactly.
30:20Yeah, we're mostly focusing on the software pieces.
30:23Got it.
30:24Good question, Johnny, because I did note,
30:25and this might be for your European product, EON,
30:28I kind of flipped around, I forget the number,
30:311,600 different vehicles supported,
30:33but no Tesla, is that correct?
30:36Are you guys able to support Tesla?
30:38Tesla is supported.
30:38Oh, Tesla is supported?
30:40So you can talk to their cars?
30:43Yeah.
30:44Yes.
30:44And does this show up as an icon
30:46in the dash of the vehicle,
30:48or is it only through your phone?
30:50You as the customer, you don't notice any differences.
30:54We do all the charging behind the scenes.
30:57We might stop charging for 15 minutes or half an hour
31:05and then continue charging at some other point of time.
31:09But we will make sure that if you said,
31:11I want to have 80% state of charge by 4 p.m.,
31:15because I need to leave on a road trip,
31:17that you get those 80%.
31:18And I was gonna ask that,
31:19so if I wanna say, hey, cancel Mobility House,
31:21I just want a straight charge,
31:23I don't want anybody doing it,
31:24because for instance,
31:25I took my wife to the airport this morning,
31:27and just so happened that one in the morning
31:30when I looked at my phone,
31:33I saw the truck was at 13%,
31:34so I ran out and plugged it in,
31:36and it was just like, you know,
31:37charged straight through until eight when we left.
31:39You have that flexibility?
31:41Yeah, exactly, like an override button.
31:43Okay, cool, cool.
31:44Charge now, yeah, yeah, yeah.
31:45Exactly, charge now.
31:47For us, the thesis is,
31:49you cannot inconvenience the user,
31:52the driver in any way,
31:53otherwise this is not going to work.
31:55Okay, let's go back to Texas here just for a second.
31:58So famously, Texas has had,
32:00in the last couple of summers,
32:01some terrible brownout.
32:03Winters, winters.
32:04Oh, winters too, right?
32:05Winters, yeah.
32:06If you got set up in, I don't know,
32:09Austin or Houston or Dallas in a big way,
32:12I think it was Austin that had all the,
32:13was it Austin that had the big problem?
32:14It was everywhere.
32:14The whole, Houston was, yeah.
32:16Places aren't used to extreme cold getting extreme cold,
32:19and then having no energy was a real problem.
32:22You could theoretically,
32:25you've actually,
32:26you're trying to harness sort of a new energy reserve,
32:30so you could, you could what?
32:32You could prevent?
32:33Would you go to the city?
32:34You could prevent kind of a brownout situation
32:36or say, hey, if we can get everybody
32:37to plug in their cars and send energy back to the grid,
32:43this is a potential solution for municipalities?
32:48At scale, for sure.
32:49This is one of the benefits that we're going to see,
32:52that if you use the vehicles in a situation
32:55where your grid is in distress,
32:58that you can put power back onto the grid.
33:01The primary use case in the beginning is,
33:05increase adoption is to make sure to give a user
33:09a really cheap, ideally zero cost charging rate.
33:14And then by us managing already,
33:16according to price signals, the charging,
33:19we already create a better
33:25and more grid-friendly charging behavior,
33:28because we obviously would stop charging
33:29or throttle charging,
33:30and only do the minimal charging across
33:33all of the vehicles on the road
33:35when the prices are really high.
33:36And prices are really high when supply is low.
33:40Sure.
33:41And what are you using to make these decisions?
33:43Is it just looking at numbers or is there other factor?
33:45Like what, like, you know, when you're like, all right,
33:48you know, throttle it down.
33:49What's actually, is there a human making that decision?
33:51Money, baby.
33:52AI, just cash?
33:54Yeah, it's algorithms programmed by, you know,
33:59nerdy PhDs that are way smarter than all of us here.
34:02Everybody, listen to us.
34:05Okay.
34:06Interesting.
34:07So then that's what's in it for,
34:11we've talked about what's in it for business,
34:12which I totally get.
34:14I think a little, still a little,
34:15I mean, it's pretty clear.
34:17I mean, if you could, look, look.
34:18Zero charging for the consumer.
34:19Are you charging your truck or your house?
34:21Yes.
34:22Oh, that's hundreds of bucks a month.
34:23So if that goes down to zero,
34:24that's thousands of dollars a year.
34:24Right, right, right.
34:25So that's in it for the consumer.
34:27Now we understand the compelling point for the government,
34:31like a city, a county, to engage or to utilize your software.
34:37But tell us, what is, I mean, this is some real nerdy stuff.
34:40Like how, the challenge for you
34:43is probably just getting a meeting
34:44with A, the right person,
34:45and then walking them through what this can do, right?
34:47I mean, how do you spend most of your time?
34:51It used to be a huge challenge, for sure.
34:54Because when we were at very low rates
34:57of electric vehicles, you know,
35:00one or two vehicles at a site, small pilot,
35:04that problem of having a constrained site,
35:06of not having enough power on site, wasn't really there.
35:10It was an afterthought.
35:11Also, chargers and vehicles, they were so unreliable.
35:14You know, everything that came,
35:17when it came to managed charging,
35:18that was like an afterthought.
35:20It was like, give me the chargers that work,
35:23give me vehicles that work, right?
35:25Now, though, we're seeing almost every single fleet
35:30that we talk to, whether it's a bus site
35:34or a commercial vehicle site,
35:36they are getting to a point
35:38where they don't have enough power on site,
35:40and where this upgrade, service upgrade, would be triggered.
35:44And that's always time and money.
35:47And so, people are starting to look for solutions,
35:50and they're coming to us.
35:52On the flip side, the utilities, like you said,
35:56in the beginning, were a little bit skeptical,
35:58saw EVs as a nuisance.
36:00Now, utilities are also looking to us,
36:03because they have a duty to serve.
36:07Well, that, yeah, because we have mandates
36:08in a bunch of states coming,
36:10and I know the EU has mandates as well.
36:12Like, you know, California won't be able
36:13to buy a new car in 11 years.
36:16That's not electric.
36:17And New York, and I think Massachusetts,
36:20and maybe one or two others have followed on.
36:22So, like, that's coming quick, you know?
36:25Yeah, they have.
36:25Like, we're old.
36:26You blink your eyes, five months has gone like that.
36:28So, that's 11 years is pretty soon.
36:30And the utilities have customers,
36:33you know, they're big customers breathing down their neck,
36:35saying like, hey, I need to get a service upgrade.
36:38I need to electrify my vehicles.
36:39I have vehicles sitting there.
36:40Or, you know, the network operators,
36:43they want to put a charging park somewhere.
36:48I saw Tesla had, on one of their charging parks,
36:52somewhere on the way down here, from SF down here,
36:55had a sign, a little printout on the fence
36:58of one of the new-built chargers
37:00that was, like, waiting on a service upgrade from PG&E.
37:06Right?
37:06And so, obviously, you know,
37:07people were taking photos of that.
37:09Yeah, add a little pressure to a government bureaucracy
37:12that you're not allowed to have social media on your phone
37:14so no one there will see it.
37:15But yeah, it's a great idea, great idea.
37:18This is a great conversation, just because we get,
37:21so, you know, we do this podcast.
37:22We've been talking, this is now year three,
37:24and it's really about this journey
37:27we're on towards electrification.
37:29We believe it's inevitable.
37:34A, can you, is it, like, you guys are in this space,
37:39Mobility House has been around since 2009,
37:41which I think is impressive.
37:43You guys have been thinking about this for a long time.
37:45Pre-Tesla, in a way, yeah.
37:46Pre, well, Tesla was out in 2008, but 2000.
37:50But, I mean, the Roadster.
37:51Pre-Model S, which is the big breakthrough.
37:54Actually, the Mobility House built out
37:56some of the fast-charging network for Tesla in Europe.
37:59Oh, no kidding.
38:00Oh, no kidding.
38:00I just used some in Norway, maybe.
38:02So, when you talk about this,
38:08like, we get, you know, among the many complaints
38:11or criticisms or just disses that are lobbed our way,
38:13one is, like, oh, the grid, the grid can't handle it.
38:16Like, yeah.
38:17The grid's the one that, like, it just,
38:20I think the average citizen knows so little about the grid
38:25that they just hear the grid can't handle it
38:27and take it at face value.
38:28But this seems to be a transitional solution
38:32on the way to the grid, better grid health, let's say,
38:36or the upgrades that are required for, yes.
38:39If tomorrow, if every American bought an electric car
38:43and all plugged them in at the same time,
38:45we would be screwed.
38:46It wouldn't work, right?
38:47Like, we agree that there are certain
38:49infrastructure issues that we have,
38:51but managing, smart management of what is available
38:55seems to be a solution as we build out,
38:58we do more of these upgrades.
39:00Is that accurate?
39:02You nailed it, Ed.
39:03That's exactly it.
39:05You know, there are lots of different studies
39:07that have looked at this, and yeah,
39:10if we transition all in one, it's not going to work.
39:14But with the projected transition,
39:17you know, to what's the 30, 40 million vehicles in 2030,
39:22it will require changes to the grid.
39:24It will require massive upgrades,
39:26but it also will require those technologies
39:30that can sort of smoothen out the transition.
39:33And that's the power control systems, like, you know,
39:37our system, there are other types of power controls
39:41that can really help sort of overcome these challenges,
39:48like batteries, power, battery backed up chargers,
39:53all kinds of other technologies are out there
39:55that can address these challenges.
39:57So the grid can definitely, you know, handle it.
40:00It will require time,
40:01and you just need to look to other places.
40:04Like, yes, the grid looks a little bit different
40:06in Europe or in China, but in Europe,
40:10we already have twice as many vehicles sold, EVs.
40:14You look to China, you know,
40:15it's another doubling compared to Europe.
40:18100% next week, yeah, yeah, they're crazy, yeah.
40:21But in Norway, I mean, I was just in Norway,
40:23and, you know, it's like 90% of new vehicles sold are EVs.
40:27Like almost every car in Oslo is an EV,
40:31and, you know, it's, I don't know,
40:325 million people in the city.
40:34It's pretty fairly major.
40:36Seem to be working, you know,
40:37or maybe 5 million in the country, a million in Oslo.
40:39But still, it was, you know, it seemed to be,
40:40the lights were on all day,
40:42and it was, heaters were on and all that kind of stuff.
40:46Is there, very little I know about the grid,
40:49as one's explained to me,
40:50that there's a big demarcation that we should talk about,
40:54which is the commercial grid versus the residential grid,
40:58and that the upgrades to the residential grid needed
41:00aren't nearly as severe or costly
41:03as the upgrades needed for the commercial grid.
41:06Like, we're talking about, like,
41:07we're gonna put in this giant Tesla charging farm
41:11in the middle of the San Joaquin Valley.
41:13That's very expensive,
41:15but to add like a little bit more capacity
41:18to residential neighborhoods,
41:20isn't really that much money in that it's happening.
41:22Is that true, false, ballpark?
41:27Yeah, both need to happen.
41:29Okay.
41:30I have been told that it's trillions of dollars
41:32of upgrades needed for the transmission grid.
41:35The commercial one, yeah.
41:35The commercial grid.
41:38And yeah, there are people working on it.
41:40But the thing is, to your point
41:42about the lobs being tossed at you,
41:45like, hey, this isn't gonna work.
41:47Yeah, it's gonna be a challenge in the near term.
41:49But in the long term, think about it.
41:51Like, oil out of the ground.
41:53That continuously requires someone doing something.
41:56We have to continuously pull oil out of the ground.
41:58Solar, once you install it, it runs.
42:02It's less op-ex.
42:03Yeah, no, I mean, I got panels put in seven years ago.
42:05We've done nothing.
42:08Literally nothing.
42:09Haven't even thought about it.
42:10Exactly.
42:11Nothing to do.
42:12And now it's, I think it's like three cents a kilowatt.
42:14It's very, very cheap now.
42:16So that's on the one side.
42:17So that's more competitive than oil in the long run.
42:20Now you gotta pair it with batteries.
42:22Okay, that's expensive.
42:23There's some challenges involved.
42:25Getting the solar to the batteries
42:28through the transmission and distribution grids, sure.
42:31We have to figure all this out.
42:32But eventually, these are vehicles first, batteries second.
42:35And again, they sit around doing nothing 95% of the time.
42:39You're gonna buy a car and it is a battery.
42:43So again, it's much cheaper than oil
42:45that you're constantly pulling out of the ground
42:47and then piping.
42:48So eventually you pair this cheap solar
42:51with this car that happens to be a battery
42:53that you're gonna buy anyways.
42:55And in the long run, it's a really nice future
42:58where it's clean energy, but also quite cheap.
43:01And to be clear, we are moving towards
43:05a greater adoption of solar, of hydro,
43:07of geothermal, whatever.
43:09But your system works no matter who is,
43:12where the energy comes from.
43:13Right, you're just managing.
43:14Yeah, if it's coal power,
43:15you can still manage that smartly and more efficiently.
43:18Exactly, okay.
43:18You don't want to, but you could.
43:20Yeah.
43:21Then second question is, it's two part.
43:24First, in this moment, right,
43:26there's this narrative that oh, EV sales
43:28or all the car companies have figured out
43:30that battery electrics don't work.
43:31So they're all pivoting back to plug-in hybrids or hybrids.
43:37A, do you guys care at all?
43:39I mean, if the adoption of EV slows a little bit
43:42and it's just, this is a slight slowdown,
43:44you know, we still believe, right?
43:47This is coming.
43:48Is this, yeah, mostly?
43:501,000%.
43:51I mean, the general media narrative about this
43:55is so frustrating to me because,
43:59yes, there's only a slowdown
44:01if you think about the projections
44:04that we've had on EV growth for this year
44:07or for the coming years.
44:11Only then, EVs, still, the share of EVs
44:16is still growing compared to ICE vehicles.
44:19Right.
44:20You know, ICE vehicles last year,
44:21I think, grew around 6% or so.
44:23You know, BEV vehicles, I think 20%.
44:28In the U.S., I think even 50%.
44:29Now, first quarter, it's lower,
44:31but still, like, EVs growing faster than ICE vehicles.
44:35Yeah.
44:36That's just a fact.
44:37I mean, there was another funny thing we saw
44:38that was like, if you take Tesla
44:40out of the equation in the U.S.,
44:41EV registrations are way up
44:43for every other automaker.
44:44Tesla, for a lot of reasons, like, slowed down.
44:47You know, we talk about that.
44:48It's a whole separate episode.
44:49But, so, yeah, to your point.
44:52But even if-
44:53It is a frustrating narrative.
44:54Even if the car manufacturers pivot back
44:55as, like, GM and Ford advanced to,
44:58well, but to plug-in hybrids,
45:00you also have, I mean, that's part of it, too, right?
45:02Like, you manage-
45:03That's still a battery.
45:04Yeah, you're managing the charging of a battery
45:06no matter whether it's full, battery, electric, or plug-in.
45:09Yeah, absolutely.
45:10And that's an interesting concept because-
45:14Well, most people don't plug-in, apparently,
45:15but we don't know that.
45:16Yeah, you gotta incentivize people to plug-in.
45:19I got a neighbor that plugs-in.
45:20Okay.
45:21Yeah.
45:22We do.
45:22We're nuts.
45:23But it's not like you get a fleet, or one vehicle,
45:28or five vehicles, and then you're good.
45:30It's really about diversity.
45:32It's about connecting to all these different assets
45:34because then, if one person needs to leave at 6 p.m.,
45:37the other at 7, they have 70% of the state over at 60.
45:39You can accommodate that.
45:40Yeah, you just play with the battery a little bit
45:42across many assets.
45:43So, yeah, to your point, it wouldn't really matter
45:45if it's a small plug-in hybrid electric vehicle battery
45:48or a bigger battery.
45:50And also, like, the charger has constraints, right?
45:54It can only output either, you know, 11 kilowatts.
45:56Right.
45:58And then, would you guys ever get in,
46:00are you involved with fast chargers at all,
46:01or fast chargers just don't matter,
46:03just charge as fast as possible?
46:05Yeah.
46:05Yeah?
46:06I mean, we work with the fastest chargers
46:09because these transit buses are 650 kilowatt-
46:14Oh, but, you know, okay, but I meant, like, you know,
46:16probably, like, you know,
46:17Electrify America type chargers.
46:18Would you, does Mobility House have anything to do with that?
46:22Or those are just dump the energy as quickly as possible
46:25at all times to 100%, go, go, go.
46:27Yeah, if you're a consumer
46:29and you're driving to the grocery store
46:31and you're there to charge,
46:32you pretty much want to get out of there
46:34as fast as possible.
46:35Right.
46:36So there's not much we can do on the OpEx side of things
46:39to reduce the charge
46:40because people want to have a good experience.
46:41However, what Greg was talking about earlier
46:43of setting this artificial constraints of,
46:46okay, you want to put in 500 kilowatts worth of batteries,
46:49or excuse me, of chargers,
46:50but you only have 100 kilowatts of power on site.
46:53Well, we can set that grid limit.
46:54That's what we call automated load management.
46:56So that's a CapEx reduction.
46:58It would ratchet down the charging of those fast chargers.
47:01Right, I gotcha.
47:02If you only have 100 kilowatts on site.
47:03That's all you got, that's all you got, yeah.
47:05Okay, that makes sense.
47:06Is there, we talk a lot about these,
47:09some of the corporate, your corporate offerings
47:13in a nameless, faceless kind of way.
47:15Is there a brand or a partnership you can talk about
47:18that's been successful?
47:20I know, I like to talk about BYD.
47:22They build buses up in Lancaster,
47:24and everyone knows them.
47:25They're starting to know them as the big bad
47:28Chinese EV maker that's supplanted Tesla,
47:31but they've actually been in America
47:32since I think like 2012 building.
47:35With Warren Buffett's support, yeah.
47:37Yeah, Warren Buffett's, I think his second investment.
47:39I love to tell the story.
47:40He invested, it was the second company,
47:42second Chinese company he invested in.
47:43The first was like a Chinese electric,
47:45some kind of power company.
47:47He put 250 million, I think, into BYD
47:50and turned it into eight or $9 billion
47:52in 12 years or something like that.
47:54Yeah, he's pretty smart.
47:55Anyways, you can take, right now,
47:57if you go down to Orange County, California,
47:58you can ride along the city of Anaheim
48:01in electric BYD buses.
48:03But back to my question,
48:05well, is that one of the companies you're working with,
48:07or is there a fleet operator or a bus company
48:11that you can talk about that's been successful?
48:14Yeah, we have a great partnership with New Flyer.
48:17You see a lot of those buses in Culver City.
48:19Those orange ones, those are New Flyer buses.
48:22We've been working with all the school
48:24manufactured bus manufacturers.
48:25Bluebird?
48:26Yep.
48:27Okay, it's the only one I know.
48:29There's Bluebird, Thomas-Bilt.
48:30Thomas-Bilt, that's the other one, right?
48:34And on the passenger OEM side,
48:37we have great partnerships in Europe, actually.
48:40The former CEO of VW, Herbert Deese,
48:43he's our new executive chairman,
48:45so he's really been pushing this inevitable future forward.
48:48And how are the OEMs reacting to you guys?
48:52They're like, great?
48:53Or are they like, eh, don't mess with our software?
48:55Or what's been that partnership like?
49:00Again, if we take a look at China,
49:03just to see what's coming,
49:04China, there's massive price wars on EVs.
49:07We're seeing it to a degree here,
49:09but it's nothing compared to what's happening in China.
49:11I think there are about 200 EV OEMs.
49:1497, but 148 brands.
49:18Something like that, yeah.
49:1997 OEMs, and they represent 147 brands.
49:23Sorry, 200 EV models, I think.
49:26So massive consolidation of the market on the horizon,
49:31bringing down prices tremendously.
49:33So we're getting close to price parity for the consumer,
49:36but it also means margin compressions for the OEMs.
49:40So OEMs are now looking to, what's the future?
49:45What are additional revenue streams for us?
49:47How can we increase our margins again?
49:50And so all these ancillary services around software
49:54and around energy offerings are becoming
49:56extremely, extremely interesting and appealing.
49:59So all the OEMs are stoked to work with companies like ours
50:04to figure out how they can get a little piece of the pie.
50:08What does that mean?
50:09Does that mean you could white label your product?
50:13Like a consumer, be it a fleet operator,
50:17or even a private citizen could sign up
50:20with the Toyota charging network,
50:23and then that would manage this system,
50:26which is actually, maybe some of your system
50:28would manage the charging,
50:30and then you would recoup,
50:33or the customer would recoup some of the savings?
50:36Yeah, so one of the examples that's public
50:39and it's out there, you can Google it,
50:41is our partnership with Renault.
50:43Renault is one of the largest automakers in Europe,
50:45and we have launched a product with them
50:49where you will be able to get a reduced tariff,
50:53and you get a bidirectional charger
50:55together with their new Renault 5,
50:57that's the newest EV that they're launching now.
51:00Good looking car, we assume.
51:02Yeah, it's pretty good.
51:03People are super excited about it, very nostalgic.
51:07Does Mobility House show up in the car as an app,
51:10or it's just behind the scenes?
51:11It's all behind the scenes,
51:13the product is also going to be immobilized,
51:15so that's the energy brand of Renault,
51:19so everything Mobility House is behind the scenes.
51:22And I just want to double down on this point,
51:25this is the first commercial V2G offering in the world.
51:28Vehicle to grid, V2G.
51:32And are there more coming, do you guys have competition?
51:35Like, look, if I put on my James Bond villain hat
51:38for a second, you're going to control
51:40all the energy in the world,
51:41you'll have control of every battery.
51:43I think Big Energy would like to probably buy you guys out.
51:45Right, right, but I mean,
51:48this is an emerging market, I take it.
51:50Somebody else said, hey, these batteries
51:51just sit around all day, right?
51:53Yeah, there's definitely an ecosystem forming around this.
52:00Like you said, the company was founded in 2009
52:02by Thomas Raffiner with this vision,
52:04and so it wasn't just, hey,
52:05let's go control these EV batteries.
52:08It was, let's control stationary storage batteries
52:11that are second life, that were pulled out
52:12of Renault vehicles and Mercedes vehicles,
52:14and learn how to manage them.
52:17And then step by step got to this point,
52:18and so we already have a dozen
52:20bidirectional charging projects around the world.
52:23So we've been testing and made an island
52:25off of Portugal Electric and using bidirectional charters
52:28with the police Renault fleet.
52:30So it's been a step by step process,
52:32and now it's time.
52:34What, because you mentioned Herbert Diess,
52:36who I've been tracking, what does adding him,
52:40he was a big dude, he was a big dude
52:41when he ran VW Group, but what is adding him
52:44to your executive team, what does that bring?
52:48Well, first and foremost, a lot of energy and great vision.
52:52I think he shares the vision of Zero Zero
52:55with our founder, Thomas Raffiner.
52:57That's how they got together and met
52:59and like each other.
53:02And second of all, he obviously has contacts
53:05to all the executives in the automotive industry
53:11and its ecosystem.
53:13And so that's opening a ton of doors for us.
53:16And then a lot of homework for folks like Zoe and I.
53:21He's definitely incredibly ambitious.
53:25So he can, I mean, he can get you a meeting
53:26starting with all the VW Group brands, right?
53:28Like pretty easy.
53:30When are we going to see Mobility House products
53:35in the US, when, what's the timeline frame looking like?
53:40Well, you can already see them today
53:42in the commercial space.
53:43In the consumer space.
53:44In the consumer space, we're targeting
53:46to have an offering this year.
53:49Oh, wow.
53:50Beginning of next year, maybe at the latest,
53:51but that's the plan to launch a product in Texas.
53:56Will likely be still a unidirectional product.
54:00And then for 2025 and forward, there's a lot more to come.
54:05And so how would like a consumer sign up?
54:07Like in other words, oh, I'm interested.
54:09That sounds, I want free gas, essentially.
54:12I want free energy for my EV.
54:14Is there a guy with a sandwich board flipping around
54:16or one of those inflatable things?
54:18He's in charge for marketing.
54:20So a lot worse, he's going to spend his budget.
54:22But you know what I'm saying, like how's this going to happen?
54:25What's it going to look like?
54:26You know, you can sign up today
54:28with I think there are over 100 different
54:32energy retail providers in Texas.
54:34It's not like here where you only have PG&E to choose from
54:37or maybe, or a CEA, but.
54:41But you have to use the utility where you live.
54:45In Texas, you can choose.
54:46Oh, right, right, right, right.
54:47Like if you were my neighbor and you had solar panels,
54:50I could buy that energy from you.
54:51Sure, sure, sure, sure.
54:52Which you can't do in California.
54:54Right, right, right.
54:56Well, I mean, yes and no,
54:57but also like the hillbillies that installed my solar panels
55:00like DWP thankfully flunked them like five times.
55:03It was a nightmare for me,
55:04but like they did everything wrong constantly, you know.
55:06So there is, I like a little regulation on my house.
55:09Right, and so does Texas in the cold snaps
55:12when no one has power.
55:13Right, but what I'm saying is, so this would,
55:16like in other words, okay, I have an EV.
55:20I'm listening to this podcast right now
55:21and I'm like, oh boy, free energy.
55:22That sounds, I like that.
55:24How do I say, I sign up through?
55:26Johnny's lobbying you, the softest of softballs.
55:28Is there a website?
55:29Yeah.
55:30Is there an app?
55:31Is there an app?
55:32To download something?
55:33Is it gonna be a Superbowl commercial?
55:34Or bill you guys a letter?
55:35Yeah.
55:36Probably all of the above.
55:37Okay.
55:37There will be a website, there will be an app
55:39and there will be marketing either from an OEM
55:43or from an electric retail provider.
55:46Okay.
55:47So you guys don't have that piece set up.
55:48In the US.
55:49In the US yet.
55:50So yeah, we unfortunately can't quite talk
55:53about the details yet,
55:54but we'll shout out and link something,
55:58end of this year to this podcast.
56:00Okay.
56:01There's a cool, is there a cool Instagram to follow?
56:03Do you guys, is there a social handle?
56:04Yeah, yeah, yeah.
56:05It's themobilityhouse, underscore NA for North America.
56:10Okay.
56:11I think LinkedIn, we have a lot of good content.
56:14Very sexy.
56:15Johnny loves LinkedIn.
56:16I had 19 notifications last week.
56:19Yes, because you check once a month.
56:20Yeah, yeah.
56:22Okay.
56:23Yeah.
56:24Again, it's like, I think for some people,
56:29my wife who pays her power bill,
56:30when she saw like, you know, what the EV costs,
56:32I had to sit her down and show her what,
56:35well, this is what we paid in gasoline.
56:36Like it's, yes, it's a lot of money,
56:38but it's a lot cheaper than the gasoline.
56:40How much is it?
56:41What are you talking about?
56:42How much, like your Rivian, your Rivian, every charge.
56:43Rivian's big and expensive.
56:44Yeah.
56:45Oh, I don't know.
56:46It's probably, I mean, we have also a solar panel,
56:47so it's offset and I don't know the actual amount.
56:49Is that a hundred bucks per charge
56:50from 10 to 90 for that car?
56:52No, but it's, but you know, it gets charged a lot.
56:55So it's probably 500 bucks a month or something like that.
56:59Yeah.
57:00Sorry.
57:00It's a giant truck though.
57:01I mean, you know, it's not.
57:02Yeah, the Ford is $33 basically you fill it up
57:06and I'm doing it every 10 days.
57:07At home?
57:08So it's way cheaper at home.
57:09Yeah.
57:10Yeah.
57:11So, and I'm paying.
57:11I don't know what it is.
57:12I think 36 cents per kilowatt hour,
57:14which I know is twice the national average.
57:16That's crazy.
57:17We pay nine cents a night for ours.
57:20Wow.
57:20DWP is the greatest.
57:21I'm DWP.
57:22Yeah.
57:23The greatest.
57:26I love those guys.
57:27Any final thoughts?
57:28This is a natural, this is a great conversation.
57:31So just to recap, the grid is screwed.
57:34Like we go, we're all, we're all in agreement.
57:37No, no, no.
57:37That's a point of view.
57:38What I heard was the grid is being increased.
57:41I was gonna, I thought it was a setup.
57:412% a year until 2035 in California to handle.
57:45The grid is mostly screwed,
57:46but these guys at Mobility House are helping
57:49sort of smooth out this transition.
57:51Yeah, okay.
57:52But the bigger picture is,
57:54stop thinking about your car,
57:58your electric car as like this thing
57:59to give you anxiety, right?
58:01Because especially as they get better,
58:03I just heard today, Frank dropped it in Slack
58:06or somebody, some, who did it?
58:09One of these car manufacturers did 10 to 100%
58:11or 10 to 90% in like five minutes.
58:14Yeah, that's all coming, yeah.
58:15Charging is speeding up.
58:17Capacity is only growing in the vehicles.
58:19Efficiency is going like crazy.
58:20You're gonna have extra charge left over in your car.
58:24I'll break a little news.
58:25Make money off of it.
58:26So the new electric Mercedes G-Wagon,
58:30in two years, they're gonna have
58:31an updated long range battery chemistry.
58:34That is, it's called SILA, S-I-L-A.
58:37Oh yeah.
58:38And, but apparently it's actually,
58:40I got, I think Mercedes with the help of some champagne
58:43to admit that like they're actually doing it.
58:45But yeah, it's gonna be existing size, 20% more capacity.
58:49And that can happen.
58:50It's just replacing graphite cathodes with silicon,
58:53I believe.
58:54It was a drop in technology.
58:55I know the folks at SILA are doing,
58:56they've done a really amazing work.
58:58Yeah.
58:58So anyway, so yeah, that's all getting better.
59:00So you can now be smart about it with Mobility House.
59:03Exactly.
59:04So, Zoe and Greg, thank you so much.
59:07Thank you.
59:08Thank you.
59:09The Inevitable Vodcast brought to you
59:11by the all electric Nissan Ariya,
59:14inspired by the future, designed for the now.
59:39Inevitable Vodcast brought to you by the all electric Nissan Ariya.