In this episode we are joined by former Blackpool defender Shaun Barker.
The ex-Rotherham United, Derby County and Burton Albion man discusses how his relationship with football changed, the reason he doesn't regret leaving the Seasiders before they reached the Premier League, and his battles with injury.
Photo credit: Getty Images
The ex-Rotherham United, Derby County and Burton Albion man discusses how his relationship with football changed, the reason he doesn't regret leaving the Seasiders before they reached the Premier League, and his battles with injury.
Photo credit: Getty Images
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00:00 Hello and welcome to the Football Thusts podcast, a show all about memories of a beautiful game.
00:04 In this episode, I'm joined by former Blackpool defender, Sean Barker.
00:08 First of all, how are you?
00:10 I'm alright, Tom. I've been promising to chat to you for about a year now, so it's the first opportunity we've had a chance to sit down and chat.
00:20 I'm doing good. Busy man, which was the opposite of what I thought I'd be doing when I put my feet up after retiring, but I can't complain, buddy.
00:30 So, you've been retired from playing for quite a few years now, but you're still involved in the game, doing a bit of coaching and doing a bit of media work. So, how's that treating you?
00:40 Yeah, it's enjoyable. Anyone who knows me probably has heard me over the years say I can't wait to finish.
00:50 Once I finish, I'll be away from football and doing probably the life that I was probably expected to live, that was very different to professional football.
01:00 It's good. I kind of transitioned when I retired at Burton straight into the academy there.
01:07 The academy manager at the time, Dan Robinson, as I was coming to the end of my career, was carefully and skillfully kind of directing me into the academy.
01:17 It started off with part-time and kind of seeing where I fit with the under-18s.
01:24 And then after a few months, I ended up going full-time. So, yeah, that's been enjoyable. That's probably four or five years now.
01:32 I've been involved with the PDP, the 18s at Burton and really enjoy it. There's some great staff.
01:39 It's a real kind of family-orientated club, real workmanlike and everyone chips in together and it's got a nice feel about it.
01:47 So, I retired, obviously, at Burton and continue to work there and still do now.
01:53 Media stuff. Again, I probably wasn't expected to go into it, but everyone always kind of said I spoke quite well when I was doing interviews and I used to do pieces for the paper and did a few bits when I was still playing.
02:08 And the guys at Derby, Rams TV, they've got this wonderful kind of set up.
02:14 It's really kind of top end in terms of the studio, the cameras, the people that work there, the content is unbelievable.
02:23 And they reached out to me and said, would it mind being like a bit of a kind of pundit on there alongside someone else that was working, Michael Johnson?
02:32 And then COVID hit and all of a sudden I was doing the punditry at the start, the co-coms throughout the game and the post-match as well.
02:40 So, I was kind of doing a bit of everything. So, I really enjoy it there.
02:44 The great set of lads and to still be associated and affiliated with two clubs that you've played for, I suppose it shows that people think well enough of you to keep you around the football club.
02:59 So, you said you didn't really expect to carry on with football after your retirement.
03:04 What else would you be doing? What else did you sort of foresee yourself doing after football?
03:09 I wasn't sure, to be honest. I wasn't really, you know, everyone tells you to kind of plan ahead and think about the next step.
03:18 That wasn't really me. I didn't really kind of have an idea of what I wanted to do.
03:23 As long as I'm happy, like I don't really care what I do for work.
03:27 I would have been happy to go and work at Tesco or, you know, go and be a labourer or whatever.
03:32 Just as long as I was happy and kind of content with what I was doing, I didn't really mind.
03:38 I always kind of describe myself as a student who played football for a living.
03:43 I just had no desire to be a footballer, like at all.
03:48 When I was at Rotherham and I was coming through into the first team, I was almost kind of disappointed that I was offered a pro because me and my wife were thinking about going into Renna around Europe.
04:00 And if I didn't do that, I wanted to go to uni and study. So football was a strange path for me to take.
04:09 It wasn't one I was comfortable with, wasn't one I was particularly, I didn't particularly endear to at the start.
04:16 And yeah, it's just something I wasn't really expecting to go into.
04:22 I didn't really make any effort to go into, apart from being competitive when it came to playing and training and stuff like that.
04:29 I did like losing and that probably was the thing that tipped it into my balance to kind of have a career compared to one that meant that I didn't.
04:38 Have you ended up going into Ayrton doing a uni degree since you hung up your boots?
04:43 Absolutely not. So I've got three girls now.
04:46 So obviously two jobs plus a few kind of side hustles, three girls, one's 15, 10 and five.
04:55 So those kind of aspirations and dreams have to be on the back burner until they're old enough and can do their own thing.
05:06 So to be honest, one thing being a kid, my mum and dad started fostering when I was two.
05:12 So we probably had well over 100, 120 kids in our household over like a 20, 25 year period.
05:20 So I was used to being around kids and I always wanted to be a young dad and kind of having a family has always been the thing that I wanted and was looking forward to.
05:31 So when I had my first, Eleanor, yeah, I suppose that's priority and anything that you probably envisaged you doing and wanted to do soon becomes secondary to their lives and their upbringing and their kind of me being a parent and thinking of them first.
05:51 So, yeah, that'll be something that I've still got plans to do at some point, but yeah, not for the foreseeable.
05:59 What degree would you have done if you'd gone to uni?
06:03 Oh, I don't know. When I was at school, my favourite subjects were art, media and PE.
06:12 PE just started to come into the sports science stuff and you could take it as GCSE, but probably art or media.
06:18 A lot of my mates were in bands and involved in art or fashion and stuff like that.
06:23 So that's kind of the dynamic that my group of mates were in. That was our kind of, yeah, our career.
06:31 It wasn't like a football or sports or I don't know, you know, a different way.
06:36 It was it was kind of a creative environment. So I would have thought one of those.
06:40 But you never know. I wasn't overly academic.
06:47 I always just did enough to get by, but excelled in the stuff I enjoyed. So they were the three subjects I probably would have continued on down the education route.
06:58 Well, we'll get into your football first now and best way to start is probably what's your first memory of the sport?
07:03 Was you into it as a kid or was it always something that was just there to you?
07:09 Yeah, I was into it. My dad was a Forest fan growing up.
07:15 All my mates were Forest fans and my dad used to watch the blank, blank, fluff era.
07:21 So, you know, watch some very special teams and some excellent players.
07:26 And I, football for me as a memory, my first real memory was was playing with players three, four, five years older than me.
07:36 Just like a five of a size court in a place called Bramcote in Nottingham.
07:40 And I was always pretty good, but it was competitive, you know, for a young lad.
07:48 I was seven or eight and playing against 11, 12 year olds and was more than able to give my own.
07:53 And I then went to Ilkeston Town, which was like a Sunday league, kind of non-league side, I think at the age of eight or nine.
08:05 And it was a bad, bad team, really poor. I think my first game I scored, played really well and we lost 10-1.
08:12 And then I think for the next five or six years until I was in the 16s, I was the captain of that club.
08:18 And kind of it started to develop. I started to play on Saturdays for a team called Hucknall Town.
08:24 And then all of a sudden your weekends are just kind of overloaded with football.
08:30 I used to love watching it. I used to watch Forrest growing up and with my friends and my dad, that was kind of the team that we supported.
08:41 And then as soon as I started playing professionally, I just wasn't interested in it in the same way.
08:48 It became a job. It became less fun, less of the football that I knew growing up and I loved playing.
08:59 It became more serious and there was a kind of a direction in your head to succeed and perform and play well and get in the first team and all this.
09:11 But probably joy went out of the game a little bit for me.
09:16 But saying that, when you balance it up, some of the moments you have when you're professional football and some of the moments you get with your teammates
09:24 and when you've got fans and you have success, that all of a sudden makes it a different kind of entity, a completely different beast.
09:33 And it's a different path maybe to the football that you loved growing up as a kid, where it's just fun and you don't really worry too much about mistakes.
09:41 You don't really worry too much if you lose. It's just about the enjoyment of kicking a ball around.
09:47 When you're coaching under-18s now, is that sort of in your mind, your experience of not enjoying it and making sure it's got that right balance of being fun,
09:55 but also putting them in the best position to progress?
09:58 A bit of both, yeah. The reality is when you're under-18s, you're one step away from being a professional footballer.
10:04 So the details matter. It seems silly, but for me, it's making sure you're on time, making sure you're ready to train,
10:12 making sure you work your socks off in training. All the other bits kind of come after that.
10:17 And there's definitely an element at times where you just want to instil a little bit of fun and let the lads be lads,
10:23 because there's still kids at 18, 16 to 18, they're still not fully matured.
10:28 They still don't really understand the importance of decisions.
10:33 So, yeah, it's harder, especially a person as well, because by the time they're 18, they're expected to be in and around that first team.
10:41 They haven't got a 21, they haven't got a B team, they haven't got an extra year or two to develop.
10:46 So we have to kind of hit the ground running at under 16.
10:50 So for me, I remember everyone saying, do people really want it?
10:54 And I've always argued that mainly because I didn't want it and still made it.
10:59 I think it's whether you give your best every day, whether you give your best in training, whether you're a competitor, whether you're a fighter,
11:06 whether you've got the right sort of character and right steel to make it in football, whether you want it or not.
11:13 I think people kind of use that almost as a to try and drive young lads. Do you really want it?
11:18 Is this what you really want? Well, a player can really want it and still not be dedicated enough day in, day out.
11:25 So as long as they try their best, as long as they work their socks off, I don't think you can ask for anything more.
11:32 After two years of a scholarship, if you walk away with a disappointing decision and you haven't got a professional contract at that club,
11:41 if you've done all you can, you'll never regret anything. And that's probably the biggest thing for me.
11:45 Make sure they don't regret the time over the two years.
11:49 And the reality is that the vast majority will regret as they get a little bit older because they then realise what an opportunity it was
11:57 and why they didn't push themselves that little bit further. But the long and short of it is that those that are meant to play probably do.
12:06 You wind into your childhood again. Do you remember the first pair of boots you owned?
12:11 I remember my dad being a little bit tight with boots until he realised I wasn't too bad.
12:19 So I'm trying to think of the boots. There was a pair of Puma Shadows, which were a poor man's Puma King.
12:24 I'm pretty sure I had them for a couple of years. And then I went into Puma King.
12:29 And then I don't know if you remember Kelmy. They were like a foreign brand. Take a little look at them.
12:35 They were like my first pair of proper boots. And everyone's going, "What's this kid doing wearing Kelmy boots?"
12:43 And then Speciale, when I thought my dad thinks I've got half a chance here, Speciale came out and they had that wishbone kind of bottom of the sole.
12:54 I think I was maybe under 14, 15, so it was kind of doing quite well. And yeah, those were the boots I remember.
13:02 I'm not actually that fussed. I'm not that fussed about boots. And I'll tell you a little story.
13:08 It's linking to boots and my time at Blackpool. The year we got promoted from League One, I had a pair of boots,
13:16 a pair of Predators that I'd worn all season. And I think about four games to go, they'd started to rip off the bottom,
13:22 completely separated sole to the top of the leather. So I was wrapping them around with electrical tape.
13:29 And the lads had given me some sticks and it's embarrassing. And then we got to the semifinals, the playoffs,
13:35 and they're saying, "There's no way you're going to wear them." I was like, "Yeah, I'll wear them."
13:39 And so I ended up obviously wrapping them with electrical tape. Everyone else has got pristine boots,
13:43 like making sure they looked a million dollars, getting their hair cut, all that for obviously TV.
13:49 And the final, I had a decision to make whether I wore the Preds wrapped up in electrical tape,
13:55 or there was a pair of Snide, I think Nikes, that were just in the boot room that were a size too big for me.
14:02 The cheapest of the Nike boots, you get like the £150 pair, then you've got the £80 pair,
14:07 and then you've got the £30 pair. Well, there was a pair of like the £30 pair that were about three stone heavier
14:12 than all the other boots. I had to wear two pairs of socks and I had a decision to make whether to wear the Nikes
14:17 or the Preds for the playoff final. I ended up going with the Nikes. I don't know whose they were.
14:25 I've still got them in my garage somewhere. I've got the Preds that were all wrapped up,
14:29 and I've got the Nikes that were obviously just terrible boots that were just cheap ones for knocking about in.
14:35 So, yeah, never that fussed about boots. I think a lot of people kind of get nostalgic,
14:40 and you look at the boots now, they're like £300, £400 for a pair of boots that they reckon gives you
14:46 that extra yard of pace. But yeah, not really fussed with me. Generally black boots, shirt tucked in, jobs a good 'un.
14:55 Yeah, as long as we're hauling together, do you think it's on the mind when people get the best boots
15:00 and want to look? It's more about how you look and how you feel.
15:03 Yeah, how you look, how you feel. It doesn't bother me. If a centre-half in the 18s wants to wear a pair of orange
15:11 or pink boots, I think they think that I'll have a problem with that. But if it makes them feel better,
15:16 it makes them feel like a better player, like they're a little bit quicker. So be it.
15:21 I do believe it's all in the mind. I think 20 years ago when I was coming through and playing,
15:31 you just got on with stuff. You used to have the social beers. You used to not have the real prep.
15:38 You didn't have your pasta and all this stuff. And the amount of games I played where you look back now
15:43 and go, well, I just managed to get through 90 minutes without even questioning it because my mind didn't drift away
15:50 thinking, oh, I need to be prepped properly. I need to do this right. I need to do that right.
15:54 It was all about, well, turn up to a game, get on with it and we move on.
15:57 And that's definitely gone out of, I'd say, society and definitely out of the game at a young age.
16:04 There's very few that have that mindset of just getting into a game, getting on with it, getting through injuries,
16:09 making sure you fit in the next game. It's definitely a different game that we're playing now.
16:15 You mentioned your love of Nottingham Forest as a youngster.
16:18 Do you remember the first Forest shirt you had? Would you have had a number on the back in those days?
16:23 I didn't have a number. If it would have been, it would have been three for Pearce, but I don't think I had a number.
16:29 I had the Le Bats one that was like a tealy blue, greeny kind of colour.
16:37 I can't remember what year that was. So I probably would have been maybe eight, ten, something like that.
16:44 I wasn't really too fussed about the shirt. Some people are just obsessed as soon as a new shirt comes out, get it.
16:50 That was the one I remember getting. And then there was a yellow one that had like crosses
16:56 that sort of spewed up on the side of the shoulder. That was around a similar sort of time.
17:01 So, yeah, a couple of shirts. I remember having a Juventus one because it was cool.
17:06 I was a little bit older than maybe ten at that point. But yeah, the shirt thing was definitely Le Bats was the sponsor on the front.
17:18 Do you remember the first time you walked into the city ground? What was that like, that atmosphere?
17:24 The first time I walked in, we would have been in the Trent End. I think it was Boxing Day and it was the first,
17:29 and I believe the only goal Des Walker scored for Forest. So Luton, I think it was 1-1.
17:37 We were 1-0 down and I think Des scored with like ten minutes to go.
17:42 So if I remember correctly, I would have been maybe six, seven. So if my memory is good, then I'm quite surprised.
17:50 I think it was a 1-1 against Luton. I think it was Des Walker's first and only goal.
17:55 If I'm right, yeah, you can check later. That's what I've got in my head.
17:59 That's what I've remembered, whether it's completely torn or not, I'm not sure.
18:03 How did the family and friends cope with you later going Derby and obviously you still do stuff for Derby now?
18:10 A mixture. I definitely got some texts and some phone calls and some messages that weren't too pleased.
18:19 But there were so many connections. So I think once I made it professional, like I said before,
18:27 I was less maybe obsessed with the game in terms of supporting clubs and watching it on Match of the Day and all that.
18:36 More about, well, it's a different sport for me now. This is now a career. This is now a job.
18:42 And there was a fight, a little bit of a fight really, between Derby and Forest that who was going to sign us.
18:50 I'd spoken to Ian Holloway and Paul Oyston at the time, and I knew that both clubs were interested.
18:58 I knew there's quite a few others that were interested as well.
19:00 But I think Blackpool had put a figure on my head in terms of what it would take to take me away from the club.
19:10 And I think there was only Nottingham Forest and Derby that were willing to pay the money.
19:14 So I spoke to Billy Davis and spoke to Nigel Clough, who was obviously the manager at Derby.
19:23 I was actually out with Evo in Lytton.
19:26 I think it was on a Sunday afternoon, there was about four or five lads and got a call.
19:30 It's like, "It's Nigel Clough." And then I recognised his voice and then realised that obviously he'd spoken to the club
19:38 and was seeing whether I'd be interested.
19:40 So there's lots of connections with the two clubs. Both were eager to sign me.
19:48 And I remember speaking to my dad and said, obviously he was a Forest fan and grew up supporting Forest.
19:54 But he said, "Look, Derby have been the best with you. Derby have continually said that they're working towards signing you."
20:01 It felt a bit more like Forest were just trying to put in at the last minute and just presume dad signed
20:06 because I was a Nottingham boy and they knew I was a Nottingham fan growing up.
20:10 But everything felt right at Derby.
20:12 Nigel was a very honest, open man, even at the start.
20:17 Billy Davis was talking about promotions and bonuses and all this.
20:20 And Nigel Clough just said, "We are absolutely on our knees at this football club.
20:24 We need players like yourself. We need players. It needs to feel like Blackpool does.
20:29 We need this kind of togetherness, this closeness."
20:32 And it just sold a different story, a different kind of future for me.
20:38 And he wanted to rebuild and he wanted me to be integral to that.
20:43 And when I heard Billy kind of talking about the opposite, about all the things that,
20:48 maybe the extrinsic things that players have about money, about fame, about getting promoted
20:53 or having all this adulation compared to the intrinsic kind of feeling that you want,
20:59 where you just want to do the right thing and you want to play for the manager.
21:03 You want to support the club that's in a difficult position.
21:07 And the two managers spoke and as soon as I spoke to Nigel, I knew that that was the right decision.
21:13 And my dad had exactly the same feeling.
21:16 My cousins, my uncles, they didn't agree.
21:20 But, yeah, that's part of the game in your career.
21:24 And once you're kind of just looking for the best option for you and your family, it was Derby.
21:31 And that isn't necessarily a financial thing because I could have got more money at Forest.
21:35 It was just, it felt like the right fit.
21:38 And once I'd kind of agreed with Nigel that I'd signed, I was never going to turn back.
21:43 You mentioned when you went pro, the emotion went out of it a little bit.
21:48 So what was it like when you made your debut for Rotherham as a youngster?
21:51 How were the feelings then?
21:54 Nervous, like really nervous.
21:58 Pretty proud that I managed to get there because obviously Rotherham were in the championship.
22:05 When I signed as a scholar in League Two, they got promoted to League One and then instantly into the championship.
22:11 So it took me longer to make my debut than it probably would have done normally.
22:17 But, yeah, right in a way, it was kind of a crazy feeling, really.
22:21 I think there was maybe eight or ten games to go before the end of the season.
22:24 But we were still fighting for our lives as we did every year at Rotherham, just to try to stay in the championship against all odds.
22:30 So, yeah, we lost 2-0.
22:35 My dad's travelled down probably about eight hours too early to make sure he got there.
22:40 He had this thing of taking a little Mac in every game.
22:44 It would be freezing. It absolutely peed it down.
22:47 I think a couple of my best mates went and my wife.
22:51 So there was four of them there, you know, five or six hours by the time they got there early.
22:58 But, yeah, to say you've made your debut.
23:01 And it's weird, I never thought I'd kick on.
23:03 So for me, it was like if I make my debut, it's a success because none of my mates had done.
23:09 No one I knew had played professional football.
23:12 And then when I got one, it's like, well, if I get to ten, what a success that is.
23:16 Then it was 50, then it was 100, then it was 300, then it was 500.
23:21 It's like I kept on putting these little markers, these little steps to say, I haven't really done it until I've done that.
23:27 And it kind of held me in good stead, really, having these little steps, these little targets to aim for.
23:33 And if you look at small things, and obviously it's not small, making ten professional games and making a debut.
23:40 But once you've made one, if you make a small enough step that you reach and you reach well, then you can set yourself another target.
23:46 That's kind of what I did throughout my career, just set another target of trying to complete.
23:54 And one of them was to try and play every single minute in a league season, which I did, I think, in my second year at Blackpool.
24:04 So, yeah, I like these little targets. And after making the debut, I started to realise that I was going to have a career in the game if I continued on the same path,
24:13 which obviously led to me playing until I was, what, 35 or being involved until I was 35.
24:21 You were out of Rotherham for quite a while. How hard was the decision when you left there?
24:28 A mix, really, because I didn't want to leave Rotherham. Alan Nill, who was my manager in the 18s, had been promoted to the first team manager.
24:42 I was under 24. A couple of guys had taken over the football club and really messed it up.
24:51 I could leave if they didn't offer me more money. I was one of the players of the year that year.
24:56 And if they didn't offer me more money, I could leave on a free.
24:59 There was a really underhand way where they didn't offer me any more money.
25:04 And then when I went to speak to them, they said, 'Well, you have to'.
25:07 So they gave me a decent contract because they were just trying to cut everything short.
25:12 They were very awkward and quite disrespectful towards me and made my life pretty much hell.
25:20 They were feeding loads of rubbish and garbage to the local press.
25:24 Everyone was saying that I wasn't signing because I wanted huge amounts of money, which wasn't true.
25:29 They said that I refused to turn back up to training for pre-season, which was a complete lie.
25:34 So they made me out to be this bad guy and all I was trying to do was get a half-decent contract.
25:38 Because when you come through the academy, you're always kind of bottom of that list.
25:43 They can always get you on another contract without giving you much more money.
25:48 And for the first time, I had a chance to negotiate and they weren't having it.
25:53 So I ended up with Simon Grayson. I actually reached out to him and said, 'What's your thoughts?'
25:58 And I said, 'Being honest, I want to stay at Rotherham. I like it here. I love Alan Neal.
26:02 He's a great guy. He's helped me develop as a player and as a person.'
26:06 He said, 'OK, well, obviously it's a bit messy at the moment. Why don't you come and train with us?
26:10 We'll keep you fit if you decide to go back to Rotherham. Happy days, all the best.
26:14 If you decide it's not going to happen, you want to sign for Blackpool, you've seen what we do.
26:18 You've seen how we train. You've seen the lads. It's there as an option.'
26:23 So I always liked that little bit that he didn't put pressure on me signing because he wasn't guaranteed
26:28 that I was going to sign for the club, but he just kind of tempted me to come to the club,
26:32 first and foremost, to help with the training and keep me fit and all that.
26:36 And then eventually something was agreed and I think I signed maybe two days before the first game of the season,
26:43 which I think was Brentford away, if I remember correctly.
26:47 So, yeah, really kind of, I didn't want to leave Rotherham, but at that point there was no return.
26:54 They told me I couldn't play for the club. They were pretty horrendous with how they treated me.
27:00 And I kind of learned a lot about probably myself and about how football works from that point.
27:06 Because even though I'd come through the academy there and I had a scholarship and played in the first team
27:14 and was a good player for them and was nothing but honest and hardworking and just did my bit,
27:20 they treated me pretty awfully. And I realised that you're just a commodity.
27:25 They don't really care. So when you get someone who does care, a football club, a chairman, a manager, players,
27:31 it's so important and makes you feel like you'd do anything for that club.
27:37 And that's what I had at Blackpool and that's what I had at Burton and Derby.
27:41 And the Rotherham, the last bit of Rotherham really kind of just overshadowed the great time I had at the club.
27:52 And as soon as I signed for Blackpool, we saw the likes of Ian Evert sign, Klaus Jorgensen, Andy Murrell, Wes Houlihan,
28:00 Ben Burgess, David Fox, Marcus Beane had re-signed, Adrian Forbes.
28:07 Just an unbelievable group of lads, great players, but great lads, all that kind of bonded really quickly and really well together.
28:15 And that was Simon Grayson's strength, I think, that season, getting the right player, the right character to join the football club
28:22 and take it on to new heights.
28:26 What was your first impressions of Bloomfield Road? Could you feel an excitement around that squad, around the stadium?
28:32 Yeah, I was desperate not to sign for Blackpool the year before when we turned up to Bloomfield at the end of the season
28:39 and they were really poor that year. I think we beat them 3-0 and it was obviously the two stands, the wind was horrendous.
28:46 I think at that point is where they start chucking the sand on the pitch to keep it going to the end of the season.
28:52 So I wasn't overly positive about the fact that Blackpool were interested.
28:58 But then when I saw Simon Grayson, liked him, he instantly took the mick out of my gear, which I liked.
29:06 And yeah, there was something, you could tell there was something brewing.
29:11 Obviously, there were Latvian owners, investors. We met then, it had a nice feel to it and it had a...
29:18 Sometimes you know that the fit's right. And strangely, because I'd been at Millmore
29:25 and it was an old dilapidated ground, we'd started to get a bit of work done and hadn't been completed.
29:30 Bloomfield Road just felt like an unbelievable stadium because you got them two huge stands at that point.
29:38 But yeah, the fit was right. Everything felt like it was moving in the right direction.
29:43 And we knew that there were some good lads there as well. So with all those components put together,
29:48 you knew that that season was going to be a good one. Whether it was going to be as successful as it ended up being,
29:54 you didn't see that in the first maybe 10 games because we weren't that good at the start.
30:00 It just clicked. And once it clicked, there was no stopping us.
30:04 Yeah, you got promoted to the Championship via the playoffs. You won the Cubs play of the year as well that season.
30:10 All in knackered boots. So not bad.
30:13 Yeah, exactly. That's the kind of part of the time at Blackpool is those moments.
30:21 I think we were in the porter cabins at Squires Gate and I think there was two showers that worked for the 24 lads.
30:31 And I remember one day after the lads had started bending all these showers and making different shapes and all that,
30:37 Simon Grayson lost his head because he had to explain it to the chairman.
30:42 But that kind of, it was against everyone. You're playing against unbelievable teams in that division.
30:48 We were probably the lowest paid. One of the smallest clubs just got promoted obviously into the Championship.
30:54 But the League One season was just about a togetherness. It was about bonding.
31:02 It was about just individual quality and no more so than Wes Houlihan that took everyone's breath away
31:11 and continued to for his career, both at Blackpool and Norwich.
31:15 When you've got players like that and you had the likes of Keegan Parker that had probably his best season
31:20 and you add the likes of Mike Jackson, experience, Keith Southerns, myself and Ian Everts,
31:27 those that have been around the block a little bit as well, there was a lovely combination of class, of quality, of experience.
31:35 And again, we all got on really, really well and were very tight knit.
31:40 So it was a wonderful season. And the reality is we got to the player final, we knew we were going to get promoted.
31:47 And that doesn't happen very often. We'd won nine in a row, I think at that point.
31:51 We got to the final and I don't think anyone doubted it. Players, staff, fans.
31:58 My wife said all my family turned up, I think there was about 30, 40 on a coach.
32:03 She said, "We'll go and just enjoy the day because we knew that you're going to get promoted."
32:06 And that's exactly what happened. I think I remember an interview with Mike Jackson who said that,
32:11 I don't know if it was Joe Hart or if it was Robbie Williams who said, after three or four games with them signing,
32:18 they just said, "You're going to win every game from now until the end of the season."
32:21 They can just tell coming into a group playing, when they've not been involved for the rest of the season,
32:27 just said the spirits were that high, the confidence was that high, the quality was on another level.
32:33 And we deserved to get promoted and it just took us longer to get going that season.
32:38 I think we would have finished champions if not.
32:41 Obviously that year you got to play a final at Wembley.
32:45 You'd been one of the early teams to play at the new Wembley.
32:48 You wouldn't have been around too long at that point.
32:50 So what was that experience like being in that fantastic new ground?
32:55 Quite bizarre, really. The size of it, the scale, the noise.
33:01 I think if you're not used to that, it's kind of overwhelming.
33:05 I don't think you can actually take it all in, which probably in some ways is a good thing because you just get on with the game.
33:12 But in other ways, it just didn't feel normal.
33:16 I played at big grounds before, but there was something special about it.
33:21 But it wasn't just the game, it was the build up. It was the time afterwards,
33:27 parents and families and friends all going to watch.
33:31 It was just a huge, huge occasion and one that probably wasn't expected at the start of the season,
33:38 but we kind of knew was likely to come with four or five games to go.
33:42 I think it was Derby actually played the game before they got promoted, I believe, to the Premier League.
33:47 The game before us, I think it was the match before.
33:50 So, yeah, there was only maybe three or four games before us at that point at Wembley.
33:55 Yeah, what an experience and one that I'll never forget.
33:58 What do you prefer, the arch or the Twin Towers?
34:02 I don't mind. I think both will have significant points of history in the English game.
34:14 So, it was just nice for us to experience that day, you know, the old Wembley.
34:19 I don't know if I ever went to the old Wembley, but, you know, it's just a beautiful building.
34:24 I've been fortunate enough to go a couple of times.
34:27 I went back to watch Blackpool get promoted against Cardiff.
34:31 I was in the stands with some family and friends as well.
34:35 So, yeah, a special place and one that I've got very fond memories of as well.
34:43 During your time with Blackpool, you were that captain's own band.
34:46 So, how much of an honour did that feel? Was you always sort of a natural leader?
34:50 No, no, definitely not. I probably led by example in terms of being on the pitch and how I trained and how I was.
34:57 But I was really quiet at Rotherham and actually me coming out of Michelle and being myself took for me to sign for Blackpool.
35:06 Yeah, I think when you're coming through as a young pro at Rotherham, we had so many senior players, lots of characters.
35:15 I was still quite old school. I had huge respect and was taught kind of to respect the elders and your peers.
35:22 I kind of never really found myself until I signed for Blackpool.
35:26 And you get to start fresh. I probably played a good few more championship games than the majority of those in the squad, you know, playing at that high level.
35:37 So I probably came with a little bit more confidence, a little bit more of a fresh start and it didn't take me long to settle.
35:43 And then the more confidence you grow, the closer you feel to your friends and your teammates, all of a sudden that natural leadership came out of me.
35:55 Obviously, Mike Jackson was the captain that year and he was an unbelievable person.
36:00 I travelled in pretty much every day with him, myself, David Fox, Mike Jackson and Paul Ruchuka.
36:05 So you learn loads from the likes of him, a senior player. Me and Fox, he was still like young kids and enjoying Manchester and still acting a little bit like kids.
36:16 And he loved it. He almost embraced it. He said, 'Oh, if I was your age again'.
36:20 But at the same time, we always saw him treat every single session, every single game with such importance and such detail that you learn from those kind of players.
36:31 So I wasn't a natural, but once I moved to Blackpool, I realised that that was something that probably was going to be part of my career.
36:39 And I ended up being captain both at Derby and the latter ends of my time at Burton as well.
36:47 So it's obviously something that people saw in me.
36:50 Obviously, you shared leadership responsibilities with Rob Edwards.
36:54 He's someone who's been high profile in the last few years for what he's achieved as a coach.
36:59 Could you always see the way that he was going to go in football?
37:03 Probably not to the level. It's hard to imagine someone being a manager at Premier League Club and having the success that he's had.
37:11 I've seen him a few times when he was doing the younger age groups at England.
37:17 I knew he loved football. I knew that was part of his next step.
37:23 So it's not a surprise he got into coaching, but I suppose they're just your mates, they're just your teammates.
37:28 You don't expect some of the kind of success they've had.
37:33 But what he is, is a lovely guy.
37:36 We used to call him 'The Bod' because he turned up from Wolves.
37:41 We're all kind of still that little bit old school.
37:44 There's definitely a little bit of flab on a few of the lads.
37:47 I was like a stick. We're still a bit of a ragtag group.
37:51 He was there on this BOSU board on his first game with his top off balancing and being all professional.
37:56 He had the unbelievable body.
37:58 So Ben Burgess just said, 'Oh my God, look at that bod.'
38:01 So then from that moment on, we just called him 'The Bod'.
38:05 So yeah, in my phone book is Rob 'The Bod' Edwards.
38:09 He just had a likeable way. He was very engaging.
38:15 He was a good player, but he had like his social side of things and his ability to interact with people was something special.
38:23 And that's probably what is known with his coaching skills and obviously his understanding of the game.
38:28 But that connection he can make to players and the connection he can make to the person next year that he's talking to,
38:34 that's what hasn't surprised me and what's obviously held him in good stead becoming a coach as well.
38:41 Obviously it wasn't meant to be for Luton this year, but he's got a lot of applauded for what he's achieved.
38:47 So do you think he's a man who can build at that club and get them back to where they want to be?
38:53 Yeah, it's not going to be as easy as you coming down and then getting promoted back to the Premier League.
38:58 You saw it with Blackpool.
39:00 When you're a small club with a little fish in a big pond, all of a sudden the levels are so much higher.
39:10 And then the competition to get back to that level is so difficult.
39:15 So the smaller clubs, when they do come down, you always feel that first season is the best opportunity.
39:21 If they've kept hold of the majority of the players that still believe that they can get back to the Premier League,
39:27 I think next year is going to be so important.
39:30 Obviously Blackpool came really, really close. They got to the final, didn't they, the following year.
39:37 It's those little bits. Can they do enough in that first year when they go back down to the Championship to bounce straight back up?
39:43 It's going to be a tough ask and it's not as simple as they were unlucky to stay in the Premier League,
39:49 but they should have a chance of going back up.
39:51 It's not how football works, especially when the likes of Luton will be competing with some of the size clubs that are going to be in the Championship next year.
39:58 So it's a tough ask, but one that I'm sure he believes in.
40:01 And if he believes as the manager, he'll have all the players and all the fans believe in it as well.
40:06 So I've just got my fingers crossed for him.
40:08 When you see him do interviews on TV, is there a proper manager persona there?
40:13 Or is there not too much difference between Rob Youno and Rob Santella?
40:17 Yeah, not that much. I think the detail, when he's talking about the football side of things,
40:22 you kind of realise the path he's been on, being with the national age groups,
40:27 with doing the 21s, I think, first at Wolves, having a little interim manager at time at Wolves.
40:34 And you can see he's developed over the years to get into this stage.
40:37 But it still sounds like the Bard, he still is.
40:41 I mean, I don't think he's ever going to change.
40:43 And that's the important thing, I think, with people, with players, you have to be yourself.
40:49 And it's the same when you see Evo with his interviews.
40:53 He's got this kind of assurance and confidence.
40:57 And that's the persona that he's always had as a player.
41:02 And he's bringing that to the coaching side as well.
41:06 So there's so many lads that have done ever so well from that group.
41:11 And it's understandable why, because they're all good people.
41:14 They all work tirelessly and they all had an eye for football and how to play the game
41:21 and how to be involved in their next step of coaching.
41:25 So Charlie Adam has obviously now got a manager's job and he's got a really tough job on his hands,
41:33 but one that you saw at the end of the last season that he's taken to.
41:37 And you can see how he's going to move forward with it.
41:39 I've seen the likes of David Bourne coaching seminars and stuff.
41:45 David Fox is involved in football.
41:48 Loads of the players are still heavily involved in football.
41:52 And you have some groups that don't and some groups that do.
41:57 I'm pleased to see so many of my mates do really well for themselves.
42:02 A lot of those names you mentioned were with Blackpool in the Premier League.
42:06 Of course, you left the club before that time.
42:09 Any regrets about departing the club and obviously seeing your friends?
42:13 You were at Wembley, seeing your friends go and do that?
42:16 I regret spending about two weeks getting that bonus for all the lads off the chairman,
42:21 because that was hard work and it wasn't me to enjoy it.
42:24 But no, not at all.
42:27 It was right for me to move to Derby that year.
42:29 I spoke to the chairman, I spoke to Ian Holloway and said, "I'm not desperate to go.
42:34 If you don't want to sell me, if you don't think it's right, I'm happy at Blackpool."
42:37 I still had two years left on my contract.
42:39 I wasn't interested in renegotiating and trying to use it as a way to get more money.
42:44 I'd agreed a three-year deal the year before.
42:48 I had two years left. I was happy with what I was on and what I was doing at Blackpool.
42:52 The reality is, if I hadn't been sold, the club wouldn't have had the money to go and buy Charlie Adam.
42:59 And if they hadn't have bought Charlie Adam, they wouldn't have got promoted.
43:02 It's just the way things work.
43:04 If I'd have stayed, I might not have played, I might have got injured, I might have not been seen.
43:08 It's been good enough for Ian Holloway.
43:10 You just don't know what hasn't happened.
43:12 All you can work off is the path that you've taken.
43:15 For me at that point, for my family, financially, coming back home towards the Midlands,
43:21 playing for a huge club like Derby, which was one of the pulls in terms of knowing I was going to play in front of 30,000 week in, week out.
43:29 That was more than enough to tempt me back down to the Midlands.
43:35 I had wonderful experiences at Derby as well.
43:38 I've obviously had some tough times, but it's not one I'd change.
43:43 I'm not really one for regretting stuff.
43:45 I would have liked a little bonus that the boys got.
43:48 That's their journey, that's their path, that's their career.
43:52 I had nothing but happy thoughts for all those involved and loved seeing them getting over the finishing line to get to the Premier League.
44:03 You might have to put a few calls in to some of the lads about what a bonus.
44:08 I'm sure you haven't got all the percentage after all this time.
44:11 It was pretty much down to me to go and haggle with the chairman at the time.
44:19 It wasn't easy.
44:20 The reason it was such a good bonus, I won't go into detail, but it was because no one expected it.
44:25 It was unfathomable that that club, that year, I think they had seven or eight players signed.
44:32 It was starting pretty much at the bottom and they expected almost to be in a dogfight to stay up in the championship again.
44:39 The bonus, I almost went in ridiculously cheeky and Karl agreed.
44:46 For anyone that was there, we didn't take it seriously.
44:51 But by the end, obviously they did with the run that they went on and the performance they put in and the type of football they were playing.
44:59 It would have been nice if a few of the boys had treated us, but it was theirs to enjoy.
45:05 Of course, you enjoyed your time at Derby.
45:08 They made you feel welcome from the very start.
45:11 They got you there over the forest and you go back now, so doing commentary.
45:15 So I'm guessing nothing but good memories there, nothing but fond times.
45:20 Yes, it was a wonderful club, brilliant manager to work for.
45:25 My favourite manager I think I've played for.
45:28 I love playing for Simon Grayson.
45:29 I thought he just let me be whatever I wanted and he just had the trust.
45:33 Nigel was definitely a bit tougher at times and put more pressure on me, but I think he saw more in me than any other manager has.
45:44 I got Player of the Year my first year, so I hit the ground running really.
45:48 To be named Player of the Year from the fans at Derby, I think it was an overwhelming decision that year,
45:55 which kind of said how well I'd done, especially with having a few problems with injuries that first year,
46:02 which I never had an injury at Blackpool.
46:06 Yes, just a wonderful time.
46:07 We were building something, so Nigel was on that process, that slow, methodical, careful process of getting the club up the league,
46:16 getting the wage bills down, getting the average age down.
46:20 It was a really tough ask to get that at Derby County at that point because they'd been relegated from the Premier League two years earlier.
46:29 I think the wage bill was well over the £20 million.
46:32 I think the average age was 31 and I think he ended up getting it down to 23.
46:38 So, he did a wonderful amount of work there.
46:41 The hard thing for Derby was the injury in 2012, which pretty much finished my career.
46:49 Playing for him before and not being able to play for him properly again when he probably needed myself to help kick on,
47:00 I think it was the fourth year.
47:03 It had been a gradual process. I think we finished 19th, then 16th, then 10th and then that following year was when he got the sack.
47:13 So, some really highs for me personally and some also lows, but that's the game.
47:19 That's part of your career and how you deal with those difficult times are probably more important than how you deal with the fun side, the success, the adulation.
47:30 That's easy to do. Week in, week out. It's when things get tough, it probably shows your character and shows what you're actually capable of.
47:39 You mentioned injuries and when you went to Burton, perhaps they didn't play as many games as you'd have wanted to.
47:45 But how long had retirement been a consideration for you?
47:48 How long had it been in your mind for before you actually called time on your career?
47:52 Well, my injury in 2012 was pretty much guaranteed to be a two, three year injury.
48:00 I don't think we've seen anything like it before or since really, the magnitude of the injury.
48:06 So, for me to be able to walk properly was a success. For me to be able to jog was a success.
48:12 Nigel and Darby supported me unbelievably while Nigel was there and they just wanted the best for me and they wanted me to get back on the pitch and they wanted to support myself and my family.
48:24 That gave me a great incentive to stay on that track to try and get fit because I was pretty much told that I was never going to play again.
48:33 So, the hard thing was during my last probably three or four months at Darby, I was starting to play 90 minutes.
48:40 Obviously, Nigel had been sacked and left, but I was playing 90 minutes with 21s.
48:45 I was training two or three times a week, so I was physically able to play.
48:49 I tore my plantar fascia, I think with two games to go and that kept me out for maybe six months.
48:55 So, that season when I left Darby, I was out of contract and was told that I wasn't going to be extended.
49:03 I couldn't go to a club because I wasn't fit because of my plantar fascia.
49:09 A few clubs said that they'd take us and give us a six-month and I said no because I didn't think it was fair because it's only right that I signed for a club if I was fit.
49:19 It took me about six or eight months to get over my plantar fascia injury, which was a real shame because at that point,
49:25 my knee wasn't at the kind of condition it was when I was doing eight hours of rehab every single day.
49:32 I was the fittest, strongest I've probably been and it just didn't align because of the plantar fascia injury.
49:40 It just didn't align right. I thought I would have continued to play in the championship, but it wasn't to be.
49:48 So, I signed for Burton knowing that the manager wanted me to just be around the squad,
49:54 to be available to come on for five minutes at the back if I needed to head anything and keep the ball out the back of the net,
50:00 which was a trademark of obviously my style. Especially the last five minutes of the game, I kind of grew into it and enjoyed balls coming into the box and me heading and blocking everything.
50:13 That's what he wanted me there for. So, he had me around Burton for a couple of years.
50:18 Didn't make many appearances, didn't have a huge amount of time on the football pitch, but what he did give me is closure, I suppose, from my journey.
50:27 It was 29 when I got injured, had this injury, which should have been my peak.
50:32 It was nearly five years later when I played against Derby for Burton and I came on for the last, I think it was two,
50:40 30 seconds, minute or something. Corner came in, it was my head that got to the ball, which cleared the ball.
50:48 And then, I think 10 seconds later, Burton had won their first competitive game against Derby in the championship,
50:56 which was a wonderful fitting for five years of difficulties and disappointments and frustration,
51:08 because weirdly, the four and a half years or whatever leading up to that, it was all worth it for 30 seconds on the pitch against your former team,
51:17 playing for your former manager, for Burton in the championship.
51:21 And obviously, since that moment, I've still worked for Burton and Derby.
51:26 So, the connections are quite special and quite poignant for that moment of my time.
51:32 And I only got that time because of Nigel Clough. So, I've loved playing, I've loved managers in all different ways.
51:39 But in terms of respect and in terms of loyalty, there's no one I've come across that compares to him.
51:47 You went on some journey from a youngster who didn't know where you wanted to be at football,
51:51 who thought, 'I could be doing other things', to someone who was out injured for so long, but didn't call it quits,
51:57 wanted to keep going and has stayed in the game since as well.
52:00 Yeah, I think it wasn't about playing football again necessarily. It's because I said I'd get back fit.
52:07 So, once I set that target for myself, we talked about targets earlier, once I set that target,
52:12 when everyone was doubting me, it was like, 'Well, it's going to happen'. So, that's it.
52:17 And weirdly, I really enjoyed the four and a half years it took, five years it took to get back on the pitch again.
52:24 It was so many downers along the way, but I kind of knew what person I was.
52:30 I knew what mental strength I had, but you never know until you're put into a situation and you have to deal with it.
52:37 So many of my mates have said that, you know, the players, former players, 'I don't know how you did it'.
52:43 You do it because you have to. Do you know what I mean? And it's how much you put into it.
52:47 And I put my heart and my soul, I put everything I possibly could physically and mentally to get there.
52:54 And the best thing about my career is playing those 30 seconds.
52:57 So, it eclipses, you know, playing at Wembley, getting promoted with some of the best mates in the world.
53:04 It eclipses being main captain at Derby. It eclipses, you know, personal accolades for 30 seconds of football.
53:12 And that's kind of what I tell people, the four and a half years building up to that, whether it's relief, whether it's pride,
53:20 whether it's just joy of getting to where you always said you would do.
53:24 I wasn't happy with how my career ended, but I was content.
53:28 You know, there was a satisfaction to get what I said I was going to get done, done.
53:34 I didn't kick on. I didn't have another 150, 200 appearances.
53:37 I didn't get to the 500 that I'd planned at one point in my career when it looked almost guaranteed that I would do it.
53:44 At 29, I was thinking I was not far off 400 games.
53:48 So, all the things I wanted to do, not everything happened, but the 30 seconds and the few little moments I had on the pitch afterwards
53:55 were more than made the long, tedious journey worthwhile.
54:01 Final question to finish the podcast is, if you could change any of your football firsts, anything we've spoken about in the episode, what would it be?
54:11 Yeah, absolutely nothing. Nothing. People have asked whether I would go for the challenge again that got me injured.
54:18 And if I didn't, I wouldn't be me and I wouldn't be that player.
54:22 I'd made that challenge 200 times probably in my career.
54:26 It was just at that time, it just went the opposite way to how it normally does.
54:31 So, I think I don't believe in luck. I don't believe in kind of fate.
54:36 I just believe that your life path, it just goes off in different directions and you make the best decision you can at those moments.
54:46 And, you know, people have asked about the Blackpool leading to Derby and obviously Blackpool get promoted
54:51 and all my mates get to play Premier League and, you know, enjoy time there and have these wonderful careers afterwards.
54:58 And people have talked about the injury, they've talked about how it finished at Roserun for me.
55:03 That's just my career. That's my life. There's nothing to change.
55:06 And I think what you do learn from along the way is when you make mistakes, when you mess up, when you maybe make poor decisions,
55:15 your next path should be guided a different way because of your experiences.
55:19 So, yeah, without maybe kind of ruining the question, absolutely nothing.
55:26 This is the journey I've had and this is probably why we're talking about it and why you're asking certain questions about injuries and,
55:33 you know, moving on to different clubs. And all I say is that I love the journey.
55:37 I love the ride. And it was something that probably caught me out because I wasn't expecting to in the early stages of my career.
55:44 I didn't enjoy being a professional footballer. But what I can look back on now, what I can talk about is reflect on wonderful time.
55:54 Put me in a wonderful position in terms of being able to have a house and have kids,
55:59 which many people will find very, very difficult these days with kind of how the money is and how financially difficult it is at this point.
56:09 I've had a brilliant life and I continue to do so. So change nothing.
56:14 And you keep moving forward with the same sort of mindset of whatever challenges that you face along the way, you'll deal with.
56:22 Well, thank you very much for joining me. It's been a pleasure to speak to you.
56:26 Pleasure's mine, mate.