Their fourth album might sound euphoric, but its lyrics paint a bleak picture and recording it nearly broke them forever. We meet the LA-based group in London to discuss relationships, the spirit of their band and Harry Potter…
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00:00 We're chasing this thing that none of us can really put into words and it's, we call it dive, but it's like a feeling.
00:07 You know, and we're just, that's what we're chasing the whole time.
00:11 Hello, I'm Ben Homewood and you're watching NME In Conversation with Dive.
00:22 We've got Cole and Colin here. How are you two?
00:26 - Good. - Doing good, yeah.
00:27 Good now.
00:28 I think last time I saw you here, you just got married.
00:31 - Congratulations for that. - Thank you.
00:33 - And you've had a kid since then. - Yep.
00:35 - Congratulations for that too. - Thank you.
00:37 And now you've written an album about how mankind are all frogs waiting to be boiled to death.
00:43 So, Frog in Boiling Water. Can you kind of outline why you chose that title?
00:50 Why it appealed to you as a title for the record?
00:52 I really wanted to call the album that at a certain point, but I think it kind of came from just,
01:01 we had been approaching the songs like so individually and we hadn't really considered them like as a whole piece.
01:10 And then kind of once we did it, like going through the themes, that was one that really stuck out.
01:16 But it's like, I don't know if that's going to work. What if they say no?
01:23 I was really scared to...
01:25 - Is they the band? - They the band, yeah.
01:28 Cole was nervous that we wouldn't like it, partially because making the record was really difficult.
01:33 There were a lot of disagreements, but that one actually, he came forward and we were all like, "Sick, that sounds great."
01:38 Yeah, that was like my most scared because it also didn't...
01:42 It's just like, imagine if your wife and you're pregnant and you go through the pregnancy and it's so crazy.
01:51 And it's this whole thing and she's sick and this and that, and then the baby's born and you're like,
01:57 "Let's name the baby Frog in Boiling Water."
02:00 Yeah.
02:01 You know, thinking about how somebody's reaction to that would be was scary,
02:06 but it was also scary because I didn't want it to be anything else besides that
02:12 and was worried about what the plan B was because there was no plan B.
02:19 It was called that in my mind for like a month before I talked to the band and then, yeah, they were like, "That's awesome."
02:28 For me, it just reminds me of something that Sonic Youth would have done,
02:34 where it's this idea that is borderline cliche, but no one's ever used it.
02:39 And they were so good at that.
02:41 And so when you said I was like, "Fuck, yeah."
02:43 Yeah, I mean, they have an album called Bad Moon Rising.
02:45 Yeah.
02:47 Or you were talking about their replacements earlier, their record's called Let It Be.
02:50 Let It Be, yeah.
02:51 It's so cool.
02:52 I mean, for me, the album is so dense musically and thematically
03:01 that it just feels very apropos.
03:06 It's just a fitting image, even aside from it being the commentary being politically relevant
03:13 and in step with the lyrics and everything.
03:15 It's just the image just feels like the album to me.
03:18 So it worked abstractly, artistically.
03:25 It's kind of the thesis.
03:28 Yeah, it did a good job of cohering all the ideas.
03:32 You mentioned the difficult creative process.
03:37 I've been reading stuff about you all being broke and bruised
03:40 and relationships strained to the snapping point.
03:44 So can you give some context about what exactly happened?
03:47 Because you were going to record After Deceiver and then the pandemic hit
03:51 and you were all obviously separated because of lockdowns.
03:56 And then what happened from there?
03:58 Well, it's in particular funny to answer this question with you
04:01 because last time we did an interview with you, I remember it being so positive.
04:06 Like, we're doing the best we've ever done.
04:08 And it was true at the time.
04:09 It felt like this rebirth for the band and there was so much optimism and hope.
04:15 And with this one, I think we went into it with these really big ambitions
04:21 to try to make a different kind of album for us and really stretch ourselves
04:27 and push ourselves to make something new.
04:30 And I think we just did not anticipate that it would be a really, really big
04:34 challenge to agree with those new guidelines or that kind of exploded
04:40 approach to the band.
04:43 And we were still, I think, in a certain way in that kind of mode of,
04:46 like, oh, everything's good.
04:49 And then that's when things really sneak up.
04:51 You're not expecting it.
04:53 And then you just--
04:54 resentments build and--
04:56 Relationships take work and some vigilance.
05:00 But yeah, we left Making Deceiver like, let's do that again.
05:03 And maybe we would have.
05:07 But yeah, being in bands is tough.
05:11 I think a lot of people just--
05:13 the music just shows up on their phone and they're like, cool,
05:16 and listen or whatever.
05:17 But there's not a ton of transparency about all that
05:21 goes into making the sausage.
05:22 There's so many decisions and so much money and time and all this stuff.
05:31 It's daunting.
05:33 And you kind of just--
05:35 you make it just on spec of, I hope people like this.
05:39 And you kind of put all your eggs in that basket.
05:46 I believe in it.
05:48 We all believed in it.
05:49 So did you have a label?
05:51 Because you finished with Capture Tracks.
05:53 Yeah, we had no label.
05:54 No label.
05:54 So that's even more kind of uncertainty.
05:56 Yeah, we were kind of paying out of our pocket, more or less,
06:00 to make the record.
06:03 So it felt-- our investment was pretty big.
06:07 And because the record took so long to make,
06:10 we weren't touring for a year.
06:13 It was just like--
06:16 it created a more fraught environment where it's like the band is very much
06:22 our livelihood.
06:23 And we're all investing so much in this thing.
06:26 And then it's like our friendships and our creative thing.
06:30 And they all become intertwined.
06:31 And so it becomes really difficult to make decisions
06:35 because there's so much wrapped up in every single decision you make.
06:40 Maybe the one decision you make could be the one that the record's a flop,
06:44 and we all go broke, and that's it.
06:48 It feels like that in the moment.
06:49 It really feels like that in the moment.
06:51 Where you'll be having this disagreement about something that, in hindsight,
06:54 is so minor.
06:56 But in the moment, it feels like the most important decision.
07:00 Could you give a small example of what you mean, maybe?
07:02 Or is it not--
07:03 Got a lot of us.
07:04 Yeah, so many things.
07:07 We demoed everything so hard.
07:09 And a big thing, too, is that Cole and I wrote Deceiver.
07:14 And this time, we all wrote.
07:15 And especially Ben had a much more involved role, songwriting.
07:23 And so everything--
07:27 I don't know, when you have two people, there's something about that.
07:30 And I think there's a reason why there's a lot of songwriting
07:33 duos throughout history.
07:35 Something more straightforward about that dynamic, when you add a third
07:38 and then fourth person, it becomes tricky really fast.
07:43 And so we had all these demos where we were figuring things out.
07:47 And then, for an example, there would be a timing of a guitar part
07:52 that a layperson would not even be able to tell
07:55 the difference between the two.
07:58 And Cole and I would just be like, I will kill you.
08:03 Not actually, but it felt like that in the moment, this kind of--
08:06 And then it's always like--
08:08 it's like with relationships, too, where you're
08:10 arguing about something in particular.
08:12 But if you took a step back, it's like, that's not really
08:14 what we're talking about.
08:15 Yeah, you're arguing about everything.
08:20 It was so, like I was saying, so loaded with interpersonal relationship,
08:26 and power dynamics, and financial stuff.
08:30 And it's like-- it's just a lot.
08:35 So how did you find someone to put it out?
08:38 Tell me about how you signed to Fantasy.
08:40 Was it done, and then you kind of--
08:42 were you kind of shopping around with the record or not?
08:44 Yeah, the record was done--
08:46 It was close to done.
08:48 That was the initial intention was in financing it ourselves,
08:52 was that we want to just make a record and have it be finished,
08:56 so the label can say yes or no.
08:58 There isn't a back and forth about, oh, the track list should be this,
09:02 or whatever.
09:04 So yeah, we were shopping around a mostly finished album.
09:08 Oh, yeah, it was mostly finished.
09:09 And then they'd be like, cool, let's hear the finished one.
09:12 And we're like, you don't understand.
09:15 It's like, we're so close to the finish line,
09:17 but there was still mixing and all these big, big decisions
09:20 that had to be made to get together as a group.
09:24 So we were further from the finish line than probably it seemed.
09:29 But Matt from Fantasy, we met with him.
09:33 And sometimes you just--
09:35 especially with industry people, sometimes you
09:37 have a conversation where you're just like, you understand.
09:41 They say the-- and not even in a charm forward way.
09:46 They just say the right string of words, where you're just like,
09:51 that's the home for the album.
09:53 And everything since then has been sick.
09:55 It feels like everyone really reinforces that kind of understanding
09:58 that he laid out.
10:00 And how are you feeling about the finished product?
10:03 You're listening to the record.
10:04 It's amazing work, I think.
10:06 How do you feel about it now it's kind of done and it's coming out?
10:11 It's hard to hear it with--
10:14 I feel like I was only able to hear it with Fresh Years for the first time
10:17 when we listened to the--
10:20 when you get a vinyl press, they send you the thing
10:22 to check if there's any fuck ups on it.
10:26 Listening to that was the first time I heard it with completely fresh ears.
10:29 And I was like, whoa, it's so--
10:32 the arrangements are really cool.
10:34 Or it's so dense or something.
10:39 But it was hard to hear it for what it was for a while.
10:43 But yeah, I mean, I'm really proud of us.
10:46 We did make a good record.
10:49 Yeah, I mean, I think it's an amazing album.
10:53 I like being a--
10:54 it's so nice to be a fan of the band you're in.
10:57 And it--
10:59 because I feel like most people are probably or convince themselves
11:03 they are, but I really like the music we make.
11:06 And this one just feels like so hard fought or hard won or whatever.
11:12 And for a while, it was painful to listen to it
11:16 because there's so much baggage that no one will ever know really,
11:23 other than our partners and a few other people who are close to us
11:26 or Chris, who produced the record.
11:29 They understand.
11:30 But for the most part, it's too much to even explain.
11:34 And that's how it is with stuff that's really difficult to think about,
11:38 where you cringe or wince.
11:41 It's when it's just overwhelming.
11:43 You can't distill it into one argument or something like that.
11:46 But now that we're having distance, and especially having people react to it
11:50 and come up to us and ask us really thoughtful questions and really--
11:55 you can sense that they're connecting to the music.
11:57 That's really gratifying.
11:59 It's not ours anymore.
12:00 Yeah.
12:01 Do you think that most bands have those kind of issues
12:04 that you were just talking about going on that people don't know about?
12:07 Because surely everyone must have--
12:08 I don't know.
12:09 Probably.
12:10 --stuff going on that they don't talk about.
12:12 I think we're just a group of four really very different people
12:17 from each other.
12:19 And I think some groups of people tend to grow together into--
12:26 they become more agreeable to each other.
12:28 Their personalities coalesce a little bit more.
12:31 And we've become very good at--
12:37 I don't know-- just not doing that.
12:39 I wonder what other bands like Internal Dynamics are like.
12:42 They're probably fucked up too.
12:44 Yeah.
12:45 I'm sure they're fucked up in different ways.
12:47 And this is not to say that other bands don't
12:49 have high standards for themselves.
12:51 But we really, really do.
12:53 And we're really hard on each other.
12:54 And we're very brutal about the kind of idea of the best idea wins.
13:02 And when you have that kind of approach, it can get intense,
13:08 especially when your taste is different.
13:10 So it feels like--
13:13 I don't know.
13:13 At least with bands that we're friends with and stuff,
13:16 I rarely have a conversation with someone where I'm like, you get it.
13:20 Yeah, that's true.
13:21 We do have a lot of friends who are musicians.
13:23 We don't seem to have the same things.
13:26 But every now and then, you do talk to someone.
13:28 I know a band that I won't mention.
13:31 It would be fun to mention.
13:32 Tell me later.
13:33 But I know for a fact that two of the guys in the band hate each other.
13:38 But they have a really good working relationship.
13:42 And it works.
13:43 And you would never know.
13:46 Being in a band is so hard.
13:49 And being in a band for over a decade is really
13:51 some crazy milestone in and of itself.
13:53 And we're still going.
13:54 And we still want to go for much longer.
13:57 And that's just hard.
13:59 And so coming to terms with the difficulty of a relationship,
14:04 especially when it's family or something, where it's like,
14:11 we just are that to each other now, the four of us.
14:14 And it's worth struggling for.
14:20 Obviously, the goal is to have a healthy dynamic, which I think
14:25 we have arrived at now much more so.
14:29 I think we just had to suck it up and talk, which can be hard.
14:35 Well, on that subject, I wrote down some lyrics I wanted to ask you about.
14:40 Because it's the title track.
14:42 You say, "My livelihood is rotting in your hand, man."
14:45 And on Reflected, lines include, "Our lives are done."
14:49 And "Parasites are in control."
14:51 And then-- I don't know.
14:53 It's just some dark-- there aren't many lyrics on the record, are there?
14:56 The lines are quite sparse.
14:58 The words that are there are really kind of bang.
15:02 Yeah, those ones are pretty targeted.
15:05 I mean, Bailey was talking a bunch about the frog in the boiling water
15:10 idea, where somebody is turning up the heat.
15:15 And we didn't want to make a political record that
15:18 was rooted in kind of dumb non-solutions,
15:22 like vote for this team or whatever kind of thing.
15:26 And so I think it was important to implicate
15:31 that it's people in power who are creating this dystopia.
15:39 It isn't just happening by itself.
15:43 So I think those are some lines that seem to talk about that.
15:47 And I was watching your old Fader film that you did.
15:52 Oh, yeah.
15:54 I know people might not-- you might not like me reading stuff back at you
15:57 that you said, but I wanted to talk to you about how hard it is being in Dive.
16:02 Because I feel like I kind of had an idea that it was particularly
16:05 challenging being in this band, having covered
16:08 the kind of trajectory you've been on.
16:10 But there are lines from each member.
16:13 Bailey was saying, "Being in a band chips away at your sanity."
16:17 Cole said that touring was like torture, literally.
16:22 But now you like it.
16:23 Ben said he often wondered why you're doing it.
16:27 And you said-- just the words that I picked, that I wrote,
16:31 were miserable and backbreaking, like kind of shitty vans
16:35 and driving all day and stuff.
16:37 So I guess the question is, is it all worth all that?
16:43 Because I don't know, you're clearly angry, sad,
16:46 feeling negative about things in some of the lyrics on the record.
16:49 And then the actual reality of doing what you do is hard, too.
16:54 Is it worth the hardship?
16:58 Yeah, I mean, it's just like-- it's like literally what we do.
17:01 Yeah, it's like I don't know how to do anything else.
17:04 Asking somebody who puts the bolts on this thing, it's like,
17:07 wouldn't you rather be taking the bolts off?
17:10 Why only know how to put them on?
17:13 You know what I mean?
17:14 It's like we committed pretty hard to this lifestyle.
17:21 And we don't have education or any of the things
17:26 that we would need or training or anything else.
17:32 So it's like we're kind of--
17:36 we're in it for better or worse.
17:39 The grass is always greener, too.
17:40 I kind of-- I'm more-- like it's--
17:44 you know, and maybe that day when we talked,
17:47 we were all feeling negative.
17:48 Maybe the next day--
17:49 It's-- it's--
17:50 We're like--
17:50 Sorry to interrupt, but it's like it's not-- you don't sound negative.
17:53 You just sound like you're being honest.
17:54 Matter of fact, I mean, there are realities about it, for sure.
17:57 But like I kind of more so shudder to think about my life without it.
18:01 Yeah.
18:02 That feels worse to think about.
18:04 Especially because it won't, you know, it won't last for--
18:07 there'll be a certain point where we don't do this anymore,
18:11 like with everything.
18:12 And so, you know, you just enjoy it and make the most.
18:15 I feel like--
18:17 Bailey was actually talking earlier about like he read something
18:22 and it changed his perspective about like how to navigate being an artist
18:28 and how to like think of it not just in terms--
18:31 I'm going to butcher this right now, but I'll do my best.
18:33 But think of it not just in terms of like, oh, I make a piece of art,
18:37 but like his life is art.
18:39 And not in a pretentious sense, just in like what we're saying,
18:43 like it is what we do.
18:44 It's who we are.
18:46 So the difficulties or whatever of it, it's part of the reality,
18:50 but it's like, you know, everything has its downsides.
18:55 Yeah, I don't think it's like unique to us.
18:57 I think, you know, the water is boiling, you know.
19:02 Yeah.
19:03 The music industry is fucked.
19:06 And it's just the nature of--
19:08 you know, and it's not just this industry.
19:10 It's like working, being a worker, being a music worker, all this stuff.
19:15 There's like-- it's not a good time for that.
19:18 You know, the money has floated to the top and will stay there.
19:21 Yeah.
19:22 Does that put you off at all?
19:23 Or again, is the answer no option but to carry on?
19:26 Because--
19:27 Yeah, it's--
19:28 Well, you're doing some stuff around trying to make that better.
19:31 Yeah, but I mean, yeah, definitely.
19:34 Yeah.
19:36 It's just-- it's not good.
19:40 And one thing that struck me about, you know, just kind of looking back on,
19:44 yeah, stuff we've done before and just the dive story in general
19:46 is how much change there's been since Cole started it.
19:52 Personal change, you know, the lineups changed a couple of times.
19:56 You've moved to a different city now.
20:00 It's just amazing to have lasted and been through everything
20:03 that you've been through that's well-documented as well.
20:06 How do you think dive has changed you over those years since you started it?
20:11 I don't know.
20:18 It's-- I think just--
20:21 I like that the records have come out in these kind of like intervals
20:26 because they really mark these like chapters.
20:29 I think Bailey was talking about that one time, about like people
20:32 rarely have like a chapter marker in their life.
20:36 And so it's cool to be able to look back and be like, man,
20:38 like, you know, this is what was happening then.
20:42 And then the next chapter, and there's a lot of change.
20:45 And, you know, people change.
20:48 And as you get older, you sometimes see bands kind of like trying to like
20:54 resist change musically or in their persona or whatever it is.
21:02 And it just feels dishonest.
21:04 And I really like--
21:07 I really like how the band has kind of like--
21:10 you know, it's like the Harry Potter movies or whatever, you know,
21:13 it like grows up with you or something like that.
21:18 Because, yeah, I mean, it's just--
21:20 like, it's just we go through all the stuff in life
21:24 that we might have gone through otherwise.
21:26 But we can talk about it on--
21:30 or we're forced to talk about it on records or whatever.
21:34 I don't know.
21:34 That's such a big question.
21:36 I don't even know what to say besides just ramble.
21:40 The other half, like the reverse of that question,
21:42 is what I was thinking about.
21:45 Do you guys define what the band does?
21:47 Or does the band define what you do?
21:49 It feels like dive is a thing that in and of itself that is--
21:55 yeah, manable and resistant.
21:57 It's definitely that.
21:59 I think like--
22:00 Maybe it's easier to talk about how dive is different than when it started.
22:03 We just have to like--
22:05 we have to define it.
22:07 It's like catching something in the air.
22:11 It's like we don't necessarily know what it is, but we know what it isn't.
22:16 And so we kind of are defining it through this negative space
22:19 and figuring out what the band is and talking about what the band is.
22:23 So in some ways, it feels like we're getting this like large--
22:27 it's telling us what to do.
22:30 But it really is just us.
22:32 It's just like we're chasing this thing that none of us
22:36 can really put into words.
22:37 And we call it dive, but it's like a feeling.
22:43 And that's what we're chasing the whole time.
22:47 There's this like-- there's a funny moment when you're writing a song where
22:51 like, come up with the drum beat, come up with the bass line, guitar part,
22:56 and then it feels like you could do anything over it.
23:00 It's like, oh, man, what could this song be?
23:02 But inevitably, especially with dive, it feels
23:05 like there's actually some sort of like end point
23:08 that that idea has if it's going to successfully be on an album.
23:12 And you just have to fight to like find it.
23:15 And it's always--
23:17 I always forget that it's going to happen.
23:20 Because we'll come up with like a demo or something,
23:24 and it's like, what should this song be like?
23:27 Maybe it could be like this.
23:28 Maybe it could be like that.
23:29 And we're like talking as though there's like a lot of possibility.
23:32 But actually, there's something else that's like guiding us around.
23:36 And we just have to like, yeah, grab it out of the air the whole thing.
23:39 I think that's a good time to end.
23:42 Cool.
23:43 I think we have to end also.
23:44 Oh, really?
23:47 Thank you so much.
23:48 Yeah, thank you.
23:48 I just coughed like right in his ear.
23:50 I was trying to--
23:51 Oh, that was your ear?
23:52 Yeah, I was trying to be like respectful.
23:53 I was like, oh, fuck.
23:56 You should leave that in.
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