'You're The Director!': Andy Biggs Mercilessly Grills ATF Director About Search Warrant Policies

5 months ago

At a House Judiciary Committee hearing last week, Rep. Andy Biggs (R-AZ) grilled ATF Director Steven Dettelbach on tactics during the execution of search warrants.

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Transcript

00:00 Thank you.

00:01 Director, have you ever been a cop?

00:04 Excuse me?

00:05 Have you ever been a cop?

00:06 I have not been a police officer.

00:07 I was a prosecutor.

00:08 Yeah, so you don't have decades of law enforcement experience, but you said you worked with law

00:13 enforcement, right?

00:14 That's fair to say, right?

00:15 I was a prosecutor for over 20 years in five different offices.

00:20 You worked with law enforcement.

00:21 You aren't law enforcement.

00:23 So is it common for ATF to turn off the power to a location prior to executing a search

00:27 warrant?

00:28 Is it common for us to do that?

00:31 I do not believe it is a common thing that we do.

00:33 I mean, you're the director.

00:34 You either know it is common or you don't know whether it's common.

00:37 I thought I answered the question.

00:38 I'm sorry.

00:39 Is it common?

00:41 My understanding is it's not common, and I want to be very careful to say I'm not commenting

00:45 on any case because I'm not sure until the facts come in.

00:48 Did I ask you about a specific case, sir?

00:50 I did not, did I?

00:51 I asked you about policy.

00:52 You just said it's not common.

00:54 Next, does the ATF use RF frequency jamming technology to prevent the Internet and cell

00:59 phones from working?

01:00 Sir, I'm sorry.

01:02 Does the ATF use RF frequency jamming technology to prevent the Internet and cell phones from

01:07 working during the execution of a search warrant?

01:10 Again, I am not going to sit here, and I guess I maybe should have said this before, and comment

01:16 on the tactics that we use when we go into dangerous places because it provides a blueprint

01:22 for criminals to hurt us.

01:23 Let's get this straight then.

01:24 You told us you won't answer anything specifically about a case.

01:27 Now you're saying you're not going to tell us generically.

01:30 Maybe we can contact your staff in a private setting and have a conversation instead of

01:34 broadcasting for all the criminals.

01:37 Does the ATF use dynamic entry as their means for entry during the execution of a search

01:41 warrant?

01:42 Again.

01:43 Does the ATF still use dynamic entry as their means for entry during the execution of a

01:49 search warrant?

01:50 Again, I don't think it's appropriate.

01:54 We can communicate with you on these kinds of training issues.

01:58 I just don't want to give a public blueprint for people tomorrow and the next day who are

02:03 going to be facing law enforcement through the door to know how we're coming, what we're

02:07 doing.

02:08 Do you assess pattern of life as a part of risk assessment conducted prior to executing

02:13 a search warrant?

02:14 Can you answer that one?

02:15 I think that's far enough afield that I could say, depending on the case, we can assess

02:19 pattern of life at times.

02:20 Of course.

02:21 Depends on the case, right?

02:23 Some cases it's appropriate.

02:25 Some cases it's not.

02:26 These are career -- I don't do this, right?

02:28 The career law enforcement people, as you pointed out, do this with decades of experience.

02:32 I don't armchair quarterback them either.

02:34 But here's the deal.

02:35 You're the director.

02:36 And I would expect that you would know what the policy is.

02:39 And it looks to me -- you've convinced me that maybe Mr. Nels was right.

02:44 I'm not sure that I thought he was right.

02:46 But you don't even -- you didn't want to tell us specifically about the Malinowski case.

02:52 I got that.

02:53 I think it's wrong.

02:54 I think it's a false narrative.

02:57 But then when we start asking you, I start asking you about policies, generic policies,

03:02 now all of a sudden you don't want to answer those.

03:05 So when you coordinate with local law enforcement prior -- you do coordinate with local law

03:12 enforcement prior to the execution of a search warrant?

03:14 In most cases, yes.

03:16 Certainly most of our cases we're doing shoulder to shoulder with law enforcement.

03:20 So you say yes or no questions.

03:21 Thank you for answering yes.

03:23 Is it the ATF's practice to instruct law enforcement partners to turn off their body cameras when

03:29 participating in search warrants with ATF?

03:31 ATF's written policies that are in our MOUs is that if a local law enforcement agency has a

03:37 body-worn camera policy and we're going on one of these short-term operations, they are

03:41 entitled to follow their own policy if they wish.

03:44 That is in black and white.

03:46 Can you tell us the difference on how the ATF would handle a search warrant on a violent

03:51 felon versus an individual who allegedly sold a few firearms without a license?

03:55 Is there a distinction in your mind?

03:57 In your -- in ATF's approach?

03:59 In every case, we do risk assessment, and it's dependent upon all the facts and circumstances

04:06 of any particular matter.

04:08 So in every case we do it, but you can't boil it down to one or two things.

04:12 It's a risk assessment that experts who are risking their lives conduct.

04:16 How does the ATF balance the need for operational security and the need for the safety to the public?

04:20 We have to do -- you're asking about balancing.

04:23 I think you said operational security.

04:25 And we have to keep the public safe.

04:28 That's obviously paramount.

04:30 But police officers are entitled to go home alive at the end of their shift also, and we also

04:35 have to make sure that we're doing that as well.

04:37 You have to do both.

04:38 So you didn't answer the question.

04:40 The question presupposed exactly what you just said.

04:44 We know that you have to balance them.

04:45 How do you balance them?

04:47 That's the question.

04:48 How do you balance them?

04:49 The answer is both are paramount, and we have to do both in each operation.

04:53 But I will tell you this.

04:55 There's no such thing for a police officer as no risk.

04:58 They sign up, we sign up, the agents sign up to risk their lives.

05:02 And they often go into very dangerous situations in order to do that, so there's no way to

05:06 mitigate all of their risks, sometimes very dangerous risks from any operation.

05:12 And we understand that.

05:13 We appreciate that.

05:14 Now, I have to say that you didn't answer Mr. Massey's letter, our letters to you.

05:21 I'm hoping that you said you're going to give us additional responses to the questions I've

05:25 asked you today.

05:26 I would anticipate that you'd give more fulsome answers than you gave us regarding the pipe

05:31 bombing issue.

05:32 issue.

'You're The Director!': Andy Biggs Mercilessly Grills ATF Director About Search Warrant Policies

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