The Sunderland Echo's Phil Smith and James Copley take us through Sunderland's head coach hunt.
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00:00I also felt something from the ownership would have been really constructive, really important,
00:06just to draw a line into the season and say, yeah, we get it.
00:09That didn't go how we wanted it to go.
00:11It's not good enough for someone to finish 16th in the championship.
00:14It's not good enough to leave you all feeling the way you did around the Newcastle games.
00:18You know what I mean?
00:30So we're going to be having a look at Sunderland's headcourt search.
00:33I see a lot of fans who are frustrated by the delay.
00:36I also see a number of other fans stating that there's not really much of a rush
00:41in a sense that the right candidate might not have become available yet.
00:44And it's such a crucial appointment that Sunderland do need to,
00:48you know, take the time and get it right.
00:50The flip side to that is that they have had since January to sort of identify targets.
00:57Where is Sunderland at the moment, Phil?
01:00Yeah, well, I mean, ultimately, there's only a couple of people
01:03who can fully answer that question, aren't there?
01:05And it's absolute radio silence on that front,
01:07which is maybe as much the problem as anything else.
01:12What we can do is piece together a little bit of a picture,
01:15given everything that we know.
01:17The first thing being that, you know, there are a few reasons
01:20why Sunderland didn't appoint anybody immediately after Michael Bale left.
01:24One was they wanted to take some time to reflect on what got wrong last time,
01:28because clearly they didn't get the right appointment
01:30after Tony Mowbray's departure.
01:32The other was probably that they thought the squad
01:34or the team was in better shape than it was.
01:36And maybe they overestimated what Mike Dodds would be able to do
01:39off the back of his previous interim spell.
01:42So that was certainly a factor in it.
01:43But the biggest one really was the reason why,
01:45I think, they made the wrong appointment when Tony Mowbray left
01:48was because the succession planning clearly wasn't strong enough.
01:53And they found it pretty much impossible
01:55to hire their top candidates in the middle of the season.
01:58They either found that the circumstances of the contracts around those people
02:01were impossible to navigate during the middle of the season,
02:04or they found that people who they really liked
02:06were really reluctant to leave in the middle of the season.
02:09So that's essentially still the case now,
02:12in terms of you've got a lot of campaigns
02:14that are only just finishing over the last weekend.
02:17A lot of those people who may be taking the next steps this summer
02:20and weighing up their decisions are still doing that.
02:24And Sunderland's view is essentially that it's better to be patient
02:29and wait for the right sort of candidate
02:33than rush into one that's the wrong one,
02:35which you could maybe argue is what they ended up doing with Michael Bale.
02:38So I think people can see the logic.
02:41There's two aspects to it.
02:43I think one is that it's obviously very high risk
02:45because if you then don't get that candidate
02:47or one of those candidates that you're waiting for,
02:50you've potentially let the other pool get much smaller
02:52because the other clubs are potentially going to be coming in
02:54for those other candidates who might be a little bit further down your list.
02:58So you've got to do a good job.
03:00And the other thing, obviously, is just the fact that it leaves us still in a real sense of limbo.
03:05We've not heard from anyone really on the football side of the club
03:08since the season ended.
03:09So we've obviously had some good insight from David Bruce,
03:12the new Chief Business Officer,
03:14into the club's plans and what fans can see moving forward.
03:17But there hasn't really been anything from the football side.
03:19And I think that is at risk of sending a really bad message
03:22because it either looks like A,
03:24what happened last season wasn't that big of a deal
03:27or that B, there doesn't really need to be any accountability for it.
03:31Now, I don't think that's the reason why there hasn't been any talk.
03:33I think the idea is, you know, actions speak louder than words.
03:37Let's go and get the new head coach in
03:38and then that'll kind of show fans what we're all about.
03:41But at the moment, it just leaves the disappointment of last season
03:46really hanging in the air, I think,
03:48because there hasn't really been any acknowledgement or accountability
03:51for just how badly things went wrong in the second half of the season.
03:54So there's logic to why let's wait to the delay.
03:58But the reality is that it does have consequences.
04:00And I think it does leave some of that ill feeling from last season lingering.
04:05You've touched upon it there, Phil,
04:07but the lack of communication perhaps becoming an issue
04:10around the sort of head coach debacle.
04:14Who do you think that message should come from?
04:15Obviously, you know, Christian Speakman as the Sporting Director,
04:19but, you know, we've maybe seen with the Tony Mowbray sacking
04:22and Sunderland's previous flirtations with other head coaches
04:26that there is a big influence from Sunderland's co-owners as well.
04:30Who would that message best be coming from?
04:32And what should it say?
04:34It's a tough one to judge, isn't it?
04:36Yeah, in my view, I think something from the ownership
04:39would have been the most powerful thing at the end of the season.
04:42I kind of understand to an extent why we haven't heard much from Christian Speakman
04:46and that in reality, what Sunderland fans want from Christian Speakman
04:50is to appoint a really good coach.
04:53So until he does that, I think you could probably make an argument
04:56that there isn't a lot for him to say until he kind of gets that job done, if you like.
05:01That's not to say that he shouldn't speak at some point,
05:03because I do think Christian Speakman has to be accountable
05:05for A, the January window and B, the Michael Bale appointment,
05:09because although we know sort of the ownership sets the strategy,
05:12you know, he is responsible for football and decisions.
05:14And I don't think that's something that supporters and people who follow the club
05:18have really had a chance to sort of hold the club to account on
05:21and sort of really get a grip of what lessons have actually been learned from that
05:24and why it unfolded the way it did.
05:26So I do think it's important that Speakman speaks at some point,
05:29but I think what I would have liked to see at the end of the season
05:32is just an acknowledgement from the ownership
05:34that what had happened last year had fallen short, you know,
05:38and that's on the pitch where bad decisions were made,
05:41off the pitch where some really, really bad decisions were made,
05:44especially around that Newcastle game.
05:45I know Kirill posted a statement on his Instagram, didn't he,
05:48at the time of the Black Cats bar stuff.
05:49But yeah, I would have liked to see the ownership sort of speak,
05:55address fans, you know, nothing sort of,
05:57I'm not saying like anything particularly major,
06:00but just to acknowledge the hurt, really,
06:03and acknowledge the frustration
06:04and acknowledge that some mistakes have been made.
06:06I think that would have been a really positive step.
06:09I know, obviously, the appointment of David Brewton,
06:12there's been quite a lot of communication, hasn't there,
06:13around the off the pitch stuff.
06:15So that has to an extent sort of shown
06:17that there's been some listening done
06:18and some action being taken.
06:20But yeah, for me, like I can totally understand
06:23why there's a delay to appointing a head coach.
06:25You've waited this long,
06:27you might as well wait a bit longer
06:28and try and get the people that you really want.
06:31I can totally understand that logic,
06:33but I do think there's a risk of letting that bad feeling linger.
06:39I think that ultimately,
06:40I suppose the important question,
06:43which we'll come on to is,
06:45does it impact something for next season waiting?
06:48Well, at this stage, it probably doesn't, does it?
06:50Because players aren't moving anywhere yet.
06:53The players are away,
06:54you're at the club for another month.
06:57So at the moment, you're probably not losing a lot
06:59by not having a head coach in place,
07:01but that probably starts to change once,
07:03you know, you move into next month
07:04and your recruitment should really be stepping up.
07:07Players potentially coming in,
07:08they're going to want to know who the new head coach is.
07:10That's obvious.
07:11Similarly, players at the club might want to know
07:12who the new head coach is
07:13if they're getting interest from elsewhere.
07:15So at the moment,
07:16I don't think the club have lost a huge amount
07:18because of the delay,
07:19but there's definitely a point
07:20in which that starts to change,
07:21I think, over the next few weeks.
07:23I also felt something from the ownership
07:24would have been really constructive,
07:27really important,
07:29just to draw a line into the season and say,
07:31yeah, we get it.
07:32That didn't go how we wanted it to go.
07:34It's not good enough
07:35for someone to finish 16th in the championship.
07:38It's not good enough to leave.
07:39You all feeling the way you did
07:40around the Newcastle game.
07:41Do you know what I mean?
07:42I think that would have been
07:43a really important part of the process.
07:45Not drawing a line in the last season
07:47because that frustration would have lingered,
07:48but like you say,
07:49creating a little bit of a buzz
07:51and creating a little bit of a sense of,
07:52right, okay,
07:53we've drawn a line under that to an extent.
07:55Let's move on.
07:56And that's the problem we're all at the moment.
07:58Still, that limbo has been allowed
07:59to sort of continue, really.
08:02It does feel like we're a little bit in purgatory,
08:03doesn't it?
08:04It's like, you know,
08:05you want to be excited for the future,
08:07but how can you?
08:07Because we don't know anything
08:09about the plans, really.
08:10Nobody's outlined it.
08:11We want to be excited about the new head coach,
08:13but we don't know who that's going to be.
08:16So, yeah, I do think it's a bit of a frustrating period.
08:20And while I can accept and understand
08:22some of the reasons behind that,
08:25you know, I think that there's a point at which
08:30it can become a little bit destructive
08:32towards next season.
08:32I don't necessarily think we're there yet.
08:34I think most supporters can acknowledge
08:36that these things do take a bit of time.
08:38But yeah, my fear is that it starts to impact
08:41sort of the unity around the club
08:43and also the time which they've got
08:44to prepare properly for next season.
08:46But we're probably not quite at that stage yet,
08:49to be fair.
08:51Yeah, purgatory is a very apt word to describe it.
08:53I feel like I've been in purgatory
08:56as a Sunderland fan since about 2003.
08:59But yeah, onwards.
09:01In terms of transfers, Phil,
09:03you did touch upon it there slightly.
09:06It's important for new signings to know
09:07who the head coach is,
09:08what the style of football is going to be.
09:10It's important for the players at the club,
09:12just general stability.
09:15A head coach is clearly hugely still important
09:17at a football club.
09:18But in terms of Sunderland's recruitment,
09:20it isn't necessarily really crucial and integral.
09:24It's sort of halfway in between, isn't it?
09:26Where, yes, you do need a good, strong head coach,
09:30hopefully attract good football players.
09:32But Sunderland have the plans
09:33regardless of the head coach, don't they?
09:35Obviously, the head coach has an input,
09:36but it's very up in the air, isn't it?
09:40Yeah, I agree with you to a large point.
09:42The way Sunderland...
09:43Although this is kind of the problem
09:44with the club at the moment, though,
09:45because what we would say is,
09:47oh, well, the club has a way of playing
09:48regardless of the head coach,
09:50and so that shouldn't change.
09:51And so you should be able to spell that out
09:52to potential new signings.
09:54But actually, that's not what happened at all
09:55in the second half of last season, was it?
09:57I mean, Sunderland were one of the most negative teams
09:59in the Championship to watch.
10:00So actually, you don't necessarily have
10:02that strength of thread anymore.
10:04That was one of the big frustrations
10:06in the second half of last season.
10:07Your point is absolutely right on principle
10:08in that, generally speaking,
10:10Sunderland are going to be the same club next year.
10:12Opportunities to young players,
10:14in theory, the playing style and stuff.
10:16But I do still think the head coach,
10:19we would be making a huge mistake
10:20to assume that that's not important
10:22to the feel of the club, to the team, to the players.
10:24And the switch away from Tony Mowbray underlined that.
10:27And maybe the club got a little bit complacent with that.
10:30Maybe the club underestimated
10:32the importance of that stuff.
10:33And I do think there's two sides of it.
10:35Even if you have a defined playing identity,
10:37which doesn't change from head coach to head coach,
10:40they are going to have specifics
10:42about how they want to set the team up.
10:43They are going to have some specifics
10:45about the shape, what they want in certain positions.
10:48And so while it doesn't change
10:50your initial identifying of targets, right?
10:52Because you would have an idea
10:53of what you're looking for.
10:54Young players, resale value, athletic, technically good.
10:58So you can draw your huge pool of players
11:00that you might sign without input from a head coach.
11:03But I do think you need a head coach
11:05to start drilling down into the detail.
11:08Okay, here's six really talented, young,
11:11you know, centre midfielders that I've identified.
11:13You know, you need the head coach
11:14to be drilling into exactly what they want
11:16from those players and how they want to play.
11:19So I agree with you in that
11:20I don't think up until this point,
11:22the lack of a head coach has made any real difference
11:24to someone's recruitment planning.
11:26But we are starting to approach the stage
11:28at which you would expect the head coach
11:29to be feeding into that.
11:31And which is why I think it's really important
11:34that, you know, all right,
11:36this week we'll probably pass about an appointment,
11:39but you don't really want it to be going
11:40beyond the next fortnight.
11:41I don't think there's a lot of work to do.
11:42So I would be amazed if the person didn't come in,
11:44didn't have what would be described
11:46as an elite coaching background
11:48from a top tier in Europe
11:49or something of those ends.
11:51That is still very definitely
11:53what they want to appoint.
11:54I still expect it to be more of a,
11:55in inverted commas, up and coming coach.
12:00You know, all right,
12:02this week we'll probably pass about an appointment,
12:04but you don't really want it to be going
12:06beyond the next fortnight.
12:06I don't think there's a lot of work to do.
12:08And even if you have a really strong club model,
12:10players are going to know who their boss is.
12:12I'm not going to join another company
12:14not knowing who my boss is
12:15and not having a conversation with him
12:16and having a sense of what my working relationship
12:18is going to be like.
12:19You're just not going to do it, are you?
12:20There's no reason why a footballer
12:22making one of the biggest decisions in their careers
12:24is going to be any different.
12:24So, yeah, I think your point's absolutely right to it.
12:28I think your point's absolutely right to an extent,
12:32but only to an extent.
12:35Maybe we've been a little bit guilty.
12:37You know, we got a little bit complacent
12:39about Sunderland's model, if you like,
12:40and actually underestimate the significance
12:42of the head coach.
12:43Do you think because of that, Phil,
12:44that Sunderland really know what they want?
12:46I'm just thinking in terms of,
12:48you know, Sunderland employ a head coach,
12:50but then they've got two managers, really,
12:52and Alex Neil and Tony Mowbray.
12:54They then went to a head coach in terms of Michael Beale,
12:57then pivoted towards Mike Dodds,
12:58an interim appointment until the end of the season.
13:02Do you think there's maybe been a little bit of soul-searching
13:04in terms of the direction of the club,
13:06that model, the strategy,
13:08or do you think it's double downtime now?
13:12Well, a little bit of both, I think.
13:15I think my gut feeling is that there was,
13:20I think a lot of things were taken for granted
13:23or underestimated in the appointment of Michael Beale.
13:25That, to me, you know, we all saw,
13:28I was in that press conference when Kristen Speightman talked about,
13:30you know, how the first couple of days of Michael Beale
13:32had been some of the best coaching he'd ever seen.
13:35We all remember the statement when Tony Mowbray was sacked
13:37and Kiril Uccef talked about high-performance culture.
13:41There was this real sense of, like, elite coaching environment,
13:46and the comments were quite pointed,
13:48but clearly they didn't think that was in place.
13:50My gut instinct tells me that that process
13:53or that sort of journey that they went on,
13:58in that they totally underestimated the importance
14:00of maybe what we might say
14:01are more traditional management skills,
14:05you know, communication, man management,
14:09all those sorts of things.
14:10And I think maybe there's been a bit of a learning journey
14:13that at a club of this size,
14:15those more traditional leadership skills
14:17are actually incredibly important.
14:19And so I wonder if, to an extent,
14:21that is going to be more of a factor in this appointment
14:23than it was in the last one,
14:24where I think maybe they got a little bit complacent.
14:27Maybe they underestimated the strength
14:29of a lot of what Tony Mowbray and Alex Neil had done before.
14:33Because while they were both incredibly different characters,
14:35the one thing they both had
14:37was a real strength of communication in their own way,
14:40and they weren't overawed by the supporters,
14:42and they were impervious to the outside noise.
14:45They were able to speak to fans
14:46without being in any way dictated to by the reaction.
14:51That was obviously an incredibly powerful thing
14:54with the greatest respect I don't think Michael Beale had,
14:57certainly not when he was here.
14:58So I do think there will be a slight change,
15:00but fundamentally they are still trying to make the appointment
15:04they wanted to make when Tony Mowbray left.
15:06So I would be amazed if the person didn't come in,
15:08didn't have what would be described
15:09as an elite coaching background,
15:12you know, from a top team in Europe
15:14or something of those ends.
15:16That is still very definitely what they want to appoint.
15:18I still expect it to be more of an
15:20up-and-coming coach
15:22rather than what we would describe
15:23as a traditional championship manager.
15:26But I would like to think,
15:27and I get the feeling that there's a recognition
15:29that maybe the focus was a little bit too much
15:31on that last time,
15:32and it didn't, you know,
15:34they sort of neglected some of the other areas
15:36that for Sunderland,
15:37even if it's a head coach and not a manager,
15:40for a Sunderland head coach,
15:42it's super, super important.
15:44At least that's certainly my hope.
15:46But I suspect that's probably the case,
15:47at least to an extent.
15:48At this stage, I feel like it's got a bit of time to run
15:51and that we're still in a little bit of a holding pattern,
15:53you know, with the caveat that,
15:55you know, if somebody decides that they really want it
15:57and Sunderland's happy,
15:57then it can accelerate really quickly.
15:59So really hard to put a timescale on.
16:01But I do think it's fair for us to say,
16:04you know, from what we know
16:05and the conversations we have
16:06and our feelings,
16:07that it doesn't feel as if it's imminent yet.
16:10It feels like we've got
16:11a little bit of left to run on this.
16:13And that's why going back to my initial point,
16:15you know, I do feel quite strongly
16:16that someone somewhere
16:18is going to speak to fans a little bit
16:20on the football side.
16:22Yeah, I think it's a long time to head into June,
16:25you know, full month potentially
16:26after the end of a rotten season in the end,
16:29without anybody really speaking to the fans
16:31or showing any accountability.
16:32I think that's going to become an issue.
16:35But we'll see, yeah, we'll see how that develops.
16:37The retained list was announced, Phil.
16:40The main headlines,
16:41Corey Evans and Bradley Dack
16:42have left the club.
16:44Obviously, Dack, he had just a season.
16:46Corey Evans joined Sunderland in League One,
16:48captained the club at Wembley
16:49against Wickham Wanderers
16:50as Sunderland won promotion.
16:52Just on Evans, a good servant,
16:55but a real lack of football
16:57over the past sort of 18 months,
16:5933 years old,
17:00probably made that decision for Sunderland.
17:02What you would say is that his experience,
17:05his position, his technical ability
17:07will need replacing
17:08because Sunderland are now seriously light
17:10in that midfield spot.
17:11And something you said on the podcast,
17:13actually a couple of weeks ago,
17:14made me think that,
17:15you know, Mike Dodds in those
17:17latter Sunderland games last season,
17:19when he had a problem in the midfield,
17:20he was bringing Corey Evans on,
17:21which was quite telling.
17:24Yeah, that's exactly it.
17:25I don't think anyone really could look
17:28at the sort of logic of the decision
17:29and really quibble with it.
17:31You know, Evans has not played much football
17:34at all over the last 18 months.
17:38You know, that obviously takes up
17:39a portion of your budget on a player
17:41who you can't be sure how much football
17:42they're going to play next season.
17:44It's a totally understandable decision.
17:46However, it's one that,
17:48even if it's totally sensible,
17:50I think loads of Sunderland supporters
17:51and I have a bit of an anxiety about
17:54because there's been three transfer windows
17:57since Corey Evans suffered that ACL injury
17:59and the club have made no attempt
18:01to directly replace him.
18:04Why is that?
18:05It's a question we've asked loads of people
18:07tons of times
18:08and never really got a straight answer back on.
18:10So it's quite hard to sort of
18:12get across to fans.
18:14The answer that I've sort of been able
18:16to piece together from what I've had back
18:17from Christian Speighton
18:18and various head coaches and stuff
18:20is that basically they're trying
18:21to move the team away from having
18:23a specialist holding midfielder,
18:25if you like.
18:25They want to be a really front foot,
18:27aggressive team.
18:29In some games, they'll play a holding midfielder,
18:31but they want the young players
18:32in the squad to be able to execute that role.
18:36To be fair, we have seen Dan Neal
18:37do that really well at times,
18:39but if he's having to do it
18:40in more games than not,
18:41then I just feel like it takes away
18:43from the team in the final third.
18:44So I can understand the decision
18:46to lose Evans,
18:48but I do think that
18:49he has been massively missed.
18:50I don't think the balance of midfield
18:51has been right all season.
18:52You know, how many counter-attacks
18:54does someone concede,
18:55especially at the Stadium of Light?
18:56It's ridiculous.
18:58So, you know, if someone go out
19:00and replace Corey Evans
19:00with a good holding midfielder
19:02or even a slightly more defensive
19:05minded centre midfielder,
19:06then, you know, no quibbles from me.
19:08I just have a bit of a concern about it
19:10because it's something
19:11that they've kind of repeatedly
19:13decided not to do for whatever reason.
19:15And the other aspect of it is,
19:16is that, you know, I'm not one
19:18who thinks the answer is to go out
19:19and get a load of 30 plus players.
19:21I do think that, you know, experience,
19:23a young player can be experienced.
19:25Like it's about playing loads of games.
19:27It's about, you know,
19:29championship experience rather than age.
19:30Having said that,
19:32you know, Sunderland squad,
19:33I think we saw in the last few months
19:34of the season was way too inexperienced
19:36at championship level.
19:37So, yeah, I think at least
19:39two gaps really on and off the pitch
19:42that Sunderland just have to address.
19:44That to me seems fairly obvious,
19:47but there's obviously a reason
19:49that it's not happened up until now.
19:51So it's going to be,
19:51that's going to be a really interesting
19:52kind of storyline to watch over the summer.
19:55Yeah, it's interesting.
19:56Obviously, Corey Evans turning 34 this summer,
19:59Bradley Dack leaving as well.
20:00He's now 30.
20:02That leaves Luke09
20:03as Sunderland's oldest player at 29.
20:06Now it's not always about age,
20:07as you mentioned, Phil,
20:09championship experience
20:10and AFL experience does play a massive part,
20:13but 09 takes that leadership burden.
20:15Now some other players sort of stepping up,
20:19but in terms of 09,
20:20you sort of think he's only been
20:22in the championship two seasons as well.
20:23Yes, hugely experienced in the AFL,
20:25but it's bizarre.
20:26I think really that that sort of fresh-faced
20:2823, 24-year-old we saw come to the club
20:30all those years ago
20:31is now the most experienced player
20:33in terms of age and championship appearances,
20:36barring maybe a Patrick Roberts
20:37or something like that.
20:39It's bizarre how this situation
20:41sort of crept upon us.
20:44Yeah, but I think like,
20:46and I think ultimately what you look at,
20:48I think a measure of experience
20:49for me is like consistency.
20:51So I think when a player reaches
20:53a certain level of experience,
20:54they have an understanding
20:55of the highs and lows of the game.
20:57They know their game,
20:58their strengths and their weaknesses pretty well.
21:00They obviously have a really good
21:01sort of attitude to training
21:03and professionalism.
21:04What you start to see is
21:05you get a base level of performance
21:06from them every week.
21:08And I think to be fair at Sunderland,
21:10you have players who are young
21:12or not, certainly not old,
21:14but who are now producing
21:15a level of consistency.
21:16So Dan Neil's now had
21:17two full championship seasons,
21:19you know, a year and a half
21:20in League One developing.
21:21You know what you're going to get
21:22from Dan Neil every week?
21:23Some weeks better,
21:25some weeks maybe not quite at his best,
21:26but generally speaking,
21:27there's a level of consistency.
21:290-9 is an obvious example of that.
21:31I know sometimes he divides opinion,
21:33but let's be honest,
21:34he's a solid player
21:35and you know what you're going to get from him.
21:37Dan Ballard is another one
21:38who absolutely has that now.
21:40Trey Hulme is probably not far off that.
21:43So I agree with the level that,
21:44you know, like age doesn't always equal
21:46experience and consistency.
21:48But I do think that what we saw was
21:50that Sunderland were always
21:51one or two injuries last season away
21:54from putting aside,
21:55they just had too many unknowns in it.
21:57Players whose performance level
21:58just fluctuates and varies too much.
22:00And it's not necessarily their fault.
22:03They're young.
22:03They're either adjusting to a new league
22:05or they're just breaking
22:06into senior football.
22:07You can't expect them to have that knowledge
22:11of how to ride the highs and the lows.
22:14And that, for me,
22:15is the thing I want to see this summer.
22:16I'm not so fussed about the player
22:18being 30, 31, 32,
22:21but I would like to see some players come in
22:23who have experienced
22:24full championship campaigns,
22:25who know how difficult it can get,
22:27who knows how good it can get,
22:29who knows how to manage
22:30the highs and the lows.
22:30So for me, it's about seeing someone
22:32coming in with experience of the level,
22:34who understands what a season looks like,
22:36and you can kind of go straight away.
22:39There's no guarantees in football and transfers,
22:41but you can say,
22:41yeah, I feel like we know
22:42what we're going to get from them all season.
22:44For me, that was a big issue last year.
22:47I do think a lot of experience was an issue.
22:49Like, I think it's important
22:50you have that in the dressing room.
22:52But for me, it was more just that
22:54I think there were too many players who,
22:55for understandable reasons,
22:58you just didn't know
22:58what you were going to get from game to game.
23:00And I think that was on the club
23:01because they put too many players
23:02in the squad at once.
23:04Where it was obvious that you weren't necessarily
23:06going to get that level of consistency.
23:07We'll probably wrap it up there.
23:09You can watch this podcast over on YouTube,
23:10over on Shots TV as well.
23:13It'll be available on all podcast platforms.
23:16Thank you for tuning in.
23:17Head over to the Sunderland Echo website
23:18for all of the latest transfer news
23:21ahead of the window opening next month.
23:23And of course, the latest on
23:25Sunderland's next head coach, Hunt.
23:28Thank you once again for listening.
23:34Sunderland! Sunderland! Sunderland!
23:37Sunderland! Sunderland! Sunderland!
23:39Sunderland! Sunderland! Sunderland!
23:41Sunderland! Sunderland!
23:43Sunderland!
23:44Yeah!
23:46Sunderland!
23:48Sunderland!
23:50Sunderland!
23:52Sunderland!
23:54Sunderland!
23:56Sunderland!
23:58Sunderland!