Watch back KMTV's live coverage of the UK's 2024 General Election results.
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00:00Good morning everybody, hope you're enjoying your breakfast as you're tuning in at quarter
00:15past eight, just gone quarter past eight from Medway Park with Rob and Cameron back to me
00:21in our KMTV studio here and I'm joined by two guests, Dickon Spain from Ashford Borough
00:29Council, the Labour leader, Labour deputy leader, and then Maxwell Harrison again from
00:42Reform, you joined us about eight hours ago and I'm still in the same spot, Mid Kent and
00:47Falversham candidate you are, so I'll just come to you Maxwell first, you've been and
00:54gone to counts and give us an overview of your night.
00:57No I mean the count was fantastic, the efficiency of all the volunteers I just think is brilliant,
01:03seeing democracy in action I just think is wonderful and everyone was, I say everyone,
01:09most people had a smile on their faces throughout the course of the night and for Reform in
01:14our campaign I'm delighted that we've just got shy of 10,000 votes for a start-up party,
01:20start-up candidate, we couldn't ask for more and I'm absolutely thrilled with our result
01:25and looking at the rest of Reform UK, PPCs in Kent, I think we've done a mighty good
01:31job in the last five weeks and I'm thrilled and delighted.
01:35And Dickon pretty happy with that Ashford result, take us through that moment, you were
01:41at the count earlier or you weren't?
01:42I wasn't actually at the count this time but I mean fantastic result and I mean we're major
01:49campaigners in Ashford, we're used to campaigning so I think to achieve about 4% margin in six
01:57weeks from pretty much a standing start and we've got candidates like Lauren Sullivan
02:03in Gravesham who've had a year and a half and they got 6% so it just shows what we've
02:08been able to do within a very short space of time.
02:11Yeah remind me of the majority, it's Sojan Joseph isn't it, that claimed that seat, what
02:17was the number?
02:18I've gone completely blank haven't you, it's so early in the morning, yeah, yeah.
02:23We'll hopefully get the Ashford, I'm speaking to the graphics team here, the gallery team,
02:28they can get the numbers up and we can dissect that in a minute, that's for Ashford, we'll
02:32have a look at those numbers in a minute, no worries.
02:34It's 1,500 basically, 1,500 votes roughly ahead of the Conservatives and I think that's
02:41brilliant, that's a brilliant achievement.
02:43We've been looking at those margins in the first, second and third place on the podium,
02:48political podium and we've seen Conservatives in reform, if you tally up that, we're looking
02:55at the tallies, I mean obviously not all, we can't say all these 10,000 voters for Ashford
03:01are ex-Conservatives but we can have some presumptions there and you know that would
03:07then make 23, so it really has split it and it's made such a difference to this political
03:13landscape.
03:14No, no of course, I mean and that's the thing, even Sweller in her speech earlier was hearkening
03:19this idea of the need to unite the right.
03:22The problem is, is that for a lot of people, those 10,000 people in Ashford, they felt
03:26that the Conservatives aren't Conservative anymore and that's the issue.
03:29We have a mainstream political party in the Tories who have alienated most of their base
03:35and we are seeing the rise of Labour which has been happening for the last two years
03:40anyway and now reform on the other side of the political spectrum hitting them hard.
03:44It shows you what happens to a party, a government which doesn't listen to the people, doesn't
03:49address their concerns and their annihilation in the last few hours is completely deserved.
03:55And looking at the Kent picture and the national averaging as well of the turnout, this has
03:59been a big topic of conversation, 67%, one of the higher numbers of turnout there.
04:07Were you surprised by that, had you expected more or less?
04:11I think we expected a decent turnout.
04:12We were surprised I think in terms of the level of turnout, I mean at the polling station
04:16yesterday where I was, it was tremendous, the best turnout I've ever seen.
04:21So yeah, it was good.
04:23But it shows the level of motivation of people in terms of wanting to express their views
04:27on what's happening and I think in reaction to the Conservatives hitting the self-destruct
04:33button nationally and the absolute burning skip-fire that they've turned the economy
04:38into and all the other things that they've done, this is very much voters expressing
04:44their opinion and obviously lots of support for reform, resurgence for Labour.
04:51When you say self-destruct button, I mean there are a few surprises, interesting points
04:59I suppose to raise from this, but we don't tend to be too shocked by election results
05:02because we have that exit poll and all that technology and all that goes into that now
05:07and keeping us informed.
05:09But I suppose what were some of the surprises, if we look more Kent wide, as the night's
05:15developed and sort of hearing from different people and contributors, what are some of
05:18the surprises from the county?
05:21Well I think what might have surprised people from the outside is obviously our result that
05:25we got in Ashford.
05:26I mean we're very close to it and we've been campaigning very hard in Ashford for a long
05:31time so we've built up support and Sojen is one of our own, he's one of our 11 borough
05:35councillors so we know the situation locally.
05:39I think the other candidates have been working very, very hard.
05:43I think Mike Tapp, absolutely, incredibly well deserved victory there.
05:47His team, him and his team have been working so hard.
05:50Lauren Sullivan is a great campaigner.
05:53So I don't think on the Labour side there's been a massive number of any surprises apart
06:00from perhaps the Ashford one for outside people and perhaps even the National Party might
06:04be a bit surprised by it.
06:06Yeah, seeing a name such as Damien Green, or not seeing that name anymore I suppose.
06:12I mean he's been in since, what, 97?
06:16He's got a tremendous track record, there's always an incumbent advantage, which we've
06:21seen him more in the last six months than we've seen him probably in the last ten years
06:25really in terms of around the constituency so hats off to him for work rate but it wasn't
06:32enough.
06:33Yeah, even from my perspective, not being in the industry and journalism too long, but
06:37he was actually the first MP I ever interviewed.
06:40I think it was even at the Kent County Show, which is this weekend.
06:43Yes, yes.
06:44Which, you know, the fun never ends.
06:46Yeah, yeah.
06:47He's a formidable MP so you know, he's a great survivor so to knock him out.
06:52And there's all that discussion about the Weald.
06:54I was very sad not to see Lenny do slightly better, I mean Lenny Rowles in Weald of Kent
07:00is a tremendous candidate but from a standing start, or pretty much a standing start, very
07:05difficult.
07:06He was obviously the Police and Crime Commissioner candidate not long ago.
07:11I think this is perhaps one of the lessons that, I mean Labour obviously has got tremendous
07:15victory but I think one of the lessons learned is to make sure that we've got candidates
07:18in much further ahead of time.
07:21If we had a longer run in, we would have got perhaps even more candidates in.
07:26But that was always going to be a difficult ask.
07:29Weald of Kent was, what, third safest Tory seat I think in the entire country.
07:33So that would have been great but we got, predictions were within about four percent
07:37at one point with electoral calculus.
07:39So obviously we got rather excited at that point.
07:43But yeah, and sad to see Mo Cleater in Maidstone not get in for Labour.
07:52She is an absolute firebrand, incredible person, would have been a brilliant MP so sad not
07:56to see her get in but that was always going to be a tight one.
08:01And another, it's not surprising it happened when you look at the landscape in Tunbridge
08:06Wells and the Liberal Democrats there, it's not a surprise but it wasn't in that exit
08:11poll but such large numbers for Tunbridge Wells, we might be able to get that popped
08:17up on the screen there so we can have a look at that, but did that surprise you when you
08:20saw that?
08:21What do you mean Tunbridge Wells going Liberal Democrat?
08:23Yeah.
08:24No, not really because again a lot of polls were suggesting that was the case and even
08:28when we went into the count today, even from obviously the Lib Dems who were there in communication
08:34with that team, they were quite confident.
08:36But no, I mean when you look at...
08:38For Mike Martin it's a huge increase.
08:42And a really high turnout as well.
08:44Do you think that's something to do with the Liberal Democrats weird and wonderful stunts
08:48that's getting people engaged?
08:50Could that be it?
08:52We're trying to get rid of disengagement, trying to figure out why people aren't turning
08:56up to vote and in the area where the party that do the most for the media have a high
09:02turnout.
09:03I don't know.
09:04It's a question.
09:05Do I think Ed Davey doing a bungee jump is going to help increase the turnout?
09:09I'm not sure.
09:10Yeah, it was an army crawl assault course he did with our reporter Oliver.
09:17Very brave.
09:18Which was brilliant to watch.
09:19But it is creative and I think the reason why the high turnouts, because it was the
09:23same for us yesterday when we were going round all the polling stations, we were speaking
09:27to all the volunteers and they were going, the numbers are pretty high, we haven't seen
09:30this before.
09:31And again, I just think it's that pure anger and apathy out there that people haven't been
09:35listened to and irrespective of where you lie on the political spectrum, from Labour,
09:39of course there was the energy to go out and have that change and we'll see what happens
09:44now with an unchallengeable government really in many respects.
09:48But on all sides, people were energised.
09:50I think the one thing that surprised me was still the amount of people who were, I'd say,
09:59blindly voting Conservative out this idea to try and stop Starmer and Labour.
10:04I think it was very clear that they were always going to win and I'm not surprised by the
10:08majority that they've got and that still surprises me that there are people in Kent who were
10:16given all the facts about, you know, we're going to have a Labour government but they
10:19still were trying to the bitter end to sort of stop it.
10:24You were talking about disillusion eight and a half hours ago and I suppose it's still
10:29panned out over the eight hours you've been watching.
10:33And so for you, you were the mid-Kent candidate.
10:38So what's next for you?
10:39What does the next political landscape look like for you?
10:41Well I think for reform, I mean we have to now professionalise ourselves, you know, Nigel
10:46was very right the other day when he was on GB News and said that in many respects we
10:50are an amateurish party, you know, we've all known things about some other candidates etc
10:56blah blah blah and we do need local branches.
10:59We do need to have local associations.
11:00I do firmly believe that...
11:02But those questions about the candidates, some of them are quite serious allegations
11:06and serious so it's more than just professionalising, it's actually looking at who you've got standing.
11:13Absolutely and we have to ensure that the candidates that we put forward into any election,
11:17whether it's local or general, they have to be the best quality.
11:20And we are very well aware that before the election was called it was very much a call
11:25to arms.
11:26Anyone, you know, who wants to run as a candidate.
11:28Do you think if you didn't, if it wasn't the call to arms, if it wasn't just anyone, if
11:31it was the right people, perhaps the numbers could have been a little bit different?
11:36Perhaps.
11:37Do you think there was too much treacherous waters thinking about reform, people wanting
11:42to put that vote in and going I'm doing something different, I want change, but then thinking
11:47a bit too risky.
11:48Do I think that the amount of negativity sort of pointed towards a very small group of candidates
11:54might have deterred some ardent Conservatives who were maybe swearing yes.
11:59I think a lot of the candidates in Kent were very great anyway, so I don't think in Kent
12:04we had a problem as such, I think in other parts of the country.
12:07But we do need to ensure that reform now does actually have, these local associations, this
12:12grassroots base because I do think after this election the Conservatives are going to collapse.
12:17I said it eight hours ago even if I haven't slept, you know, I do think they are going
12:21to collapse now and we have to accommodate those who are on the centre right of politics
12:26and I think that is sort of now the big question of how we do that.
12:30And Dickon, where do you see reform fitting into the next government, how do you see that
12:36panning out?
12:37Well they are going to be, I think obviously reform are going to be a powerful force, I
12:43don't think reform…
12:44Does it worry you?
12:46No, not really.
12:47I think in a healthy democracy there needs to be a level of challenge, whoever is in
12:52power there does need to be a level of challenge, there needs to be, to be honest, there needs
12:56to be an effective…
12:57Would you like that to be the opposition?
12:58There needs to be effective opposition.
12:59I think that it matters more that there is an effective opposition than the actual details
13:04of who that opposition is and I am afraid that the Conservatives have, as I said, they
13:10have hit the self-destruct button but also there was already sort of evidence of infighting
13:16about who was going to be the leader following the collapse in the election.
13:20That's not good for the country so I think the Conservatives need to pull themselves
13:25together and get their act together and I think to have a decent opposition is important
13:33so Labour are going to have a massive job to clear up the mess that's been left by
13:38an incredibly ineffectual and incredibly damaging Conservative administration.
13:44That's going to be a huge challenge so Labour will be under the microscope and under
13:49huge pressure and that's not a bad thing because the country desperately needs that
13:55change and I think a lot of the votes, wherever they went, was about people saying time is
14:02up on the Conservatives, we need a change, however those votes went.
14:07Who do you think Sir Keir Starmer would like to see as his opposition leader then?
14:15That is a very, very good question. I think, I mean Keir Starmer is a pretty steady pair
14:20of hands and I think he's not going to be distracted I think about who the opposition
14:25is.
14:26But you have to put a name to it.
14:29Well, I mean, your guess I think is as good as mine in terms of the Conservatives and
14:33I'm sure you'd say the same but I don't think we know who's going to be coming in.
14:37The conversations about Tom Tugendhat?
14:40Well, again, the Tories have just been annihilated and the suggestion of going to, in my opinion
14:47anyway, of going towards a one nation, I mean it's just so silly. I mean we already know
14:52that Kemi and Sowella are about to start their leadership bits, neither in my opinion, and
14:58I don't think Keir Starmer is the world's greatest leader, but I don't think either
15:02of them will actually be effective against Keir Starmer.
15:07From your position as a reform candidate, what qualities do you see, you said you don't
15:14think he's a great leader, Keir Starmer, but what qualities do you see that you can agree
15:20with?
15:22I think he's level-headed, I think that he, I mean he's got a career in law, a respectable
15:27one as well. I think he's a very intelligent chap, I don't think he's stupid or anything
15:31like that. And I think whilst a lot of the time we see, yeah sure he does the occasional
15:37flip-flop, but I do think actually...
15:39Do you trust the Labour government then, if there is that flip-flop?
15:42No, I don't personally trust the Labour government, no, I mean we'll have to see what happens.
15:45But more than a Conservative government?
15:48I have to say yes, because in the last 14 years, and that's why I voted Conservative
15:53in the last election, and I felt compelled to run against them this time, even if it
15:58meant that a Labour candidate got in, because for the last five manifestos on the road now
16:03they promised to reduce tax, to lower immigration, and they haven't. So actually it does pay
16:08me to say it, and I'll be honest, but I don't trust the Tories at all. And I think a lot
16:13of people have lended their votes to Labour, I mean we know, with the poll that came out
16:16this week, 48% have voted Labour because they want to get rid of the Tories. So I think
16:23the honeymoon period for Labour will be very short, and I think people will expect change
16:28quite soon and quite quickly. And from where that goes on, who knows, but they are, I think
16:34they're very fortunate that the Tories have just eaten themselves up really.
16:36Do you think Labour will lower immigration?
16:40I think Labour will get to grips with immigration, yes, yes I do.
16:44How quickly do you think? Because that's going to be the people sitting there eating their
16:47Cheerios this morning, or any other cereal, is going to be thinking how?
16:50Thanks to the Conservatives, they've left a huge mess haven't they? 180,000 plus people
16:56waiting for asylum decisions, etc. I think that the Labour Party will get to grips with
17:04that relatively quickly, but again it's a huge, huge task. And I think it's important
17:11that the right messages are being sent out, and I think if you look at somebody like Mike
17:16Tapp, who's really at the hard edge really of the immigration issues in Dover, he was
17:24very steady in what he was saying about having a special border force, so drawing the various
17:30bodies together to deal with this properly in terms of the stick side of it, and getting
17:35that right. But it's the administration side of it that's key as well. Getting the number
17:41of people waiting for asylum down, making sure that we're sending out a firm message
17:47in the way that we, a firm but fair way message in the way we're dealing with immigration.
17:52So just delivering, and I totally agree in terms of the honeymoon period, that's going
17:56to be short. That is going to be short, but that's again, that's no bad thing.
18:01The weight of the general public just watching and waiting.
18:04Absolutely.
18:05They don't want to wait 14 days, let alone another 14 years to get this fixed. Interesting
18:10the discussion about immigration and working with partners as well, because everything
18:14that's going on with France and their elections and the far right, it's looking like immigration
18:18could be a really key thing in keeping that discussion. It's historical that we've got
18:24to work with the French authorities.
18:25Absolutely.
18:26How do you foresee the Labour government working with whatever could become of the French government
18:32now?
18:33Well already some very positive messages have been made by Keir Starmer about dealing with
18:39whatever French government arises, and I think that's absolutely essential. You've got to
18:43deal with who you've got to deal with, and we've got a job to do, we've got a massive
18:47job to do to sort out all sorts of issues, including immigration. But we only do that
18:53by being absolutely steady in command of what's going on, and I think whether people think
18:59that the current Labour administration is an exciting administration, I think a lot
19:04of people have put their trust in it, because it's seen as steady. You've got people like
19:09Rachel Reeves in the Treasury side of things.
19:12Some people see the flip-flop, some people see the dishonesty that they're not confirming.
19:18That's been some of the criticisms when we've watched these head-to-heads, the push on will
19:22you be raising taxes, and just the refusal of the politician's answer.
19:27I think there's different types of politicians within the Labour Party, and you've got a
19:34difference between somebody like Keir Starmer, who's obviously got this tremendous legal
19:38background, and somebody like Angela Rayner, who is more of a street fighter really in
19:43terms of politics. I think it's good that we've got both of those kind of people towards
19:49the top of the party, because we're going to need that. So I think it's very, very important
19:54that we have those aspects. I think some of those tough situations in some of those debates,
20:02I think different people would have handled that differently, and I think there should
20:05be more pushback on the whole taxation side, because there was a lot of fear-mongering
20:10I think from the Conservatives about tax. I don't think ordinary people have got anything
20:16to be worried about in terms of tax at all.
20:18You don't think?
20:19No, I don't think they've got anything on risk.
20:22It's not in our plans just yet.
20:24That's like an exact quote.
20:25But I think that's the fear and uncertainty and doubt that you always get during an election,
20:30and absolutely the Conservatives were playing that card to the absolute maximum. That obviously
20:34didn't cut through completely, and I think we'll see what happens, but I'm convinced
20:42that ordinary people do not have anything to worry about in terms of tax.
20:47But I think that was the difference between all the parties really. Labour do have a vision.
20:52I don't particularly understand it, but they have a vision, and of course reform. They
20:57set out the sort of country they wanted. And again, the Conservatives did not have any
21:02sort of idea. They didn't present anything, and that's why I think they've been hemorrhaged
21:07and they've fallen apart.
21:09We talk about immigration. I do think, again, a lot of, let's say the Red Wall, these Brexit
21:16supporters who are Labour, I think they'll have thin patience when it comes to immigration.
21:20If net migration doesn't come down next year, I do think we'll start seeing more support
21:25from reform and the pressures start getting... the coals start burning for Labour. I don't
21:30envy their task, because of course they are inheriting a mess.
21:34So we're predicting something that the general public are looking for security, stability.
21:42They just want it fixed. And you're predicting that actually it's going to start becoming
21:47a bit chaotic again and people start getting fed up already. Obviously, as an opposing
21:52party, it's what you're going to start predicting. Do you think our viewers watching that now
21:55are thinking, are worried, are worried thinking all these different commentators we've had
22:01on through the night, all these different opinions and voices. I mean, we are hours
22:07into the result, you know, we've got weeks and months and years for it to all play out
22:12and for, you know, it doesn't happen overnight. Politics changes in 30 seconds, as we've witnessed
22:17tonight, but all 12 hours. So do you think the public's... how long do you think this
22:24uncertainty and this bubbling unrest is going to... how long is it going to take for the
22:29dust to settle and hopefully get back to grips with that trance?
22:34I don't think there's so much uncertainty. There will be, obviously, a bit of an element
22:39of that. But I think people have seen how Labour have been through the entire campaign.
22:45It's been an absolutely steady operation. Labour are sort of battle-hardened, if you like.
22:51Labour have got clear direction, absolutely. And I think that is going to reassure people.
22:58But I think the critical thing, rather than in terms of worry, I think there's more to
23:01the point is the honeymoon period, which will not be long. People will not give Labour a
23:06long time to start sorting or at least be seen to start sorting things out. So that's
23:11absolutely critical. So that will be the test. That will be the test of Labour. And
23:17I think, you know, personally, obviously, I would say this, but I do think Labour are
23:21up to this. I really do. You know, you look at the way that they've conducted themselves
23:25during the election. Things may not have been as exciting as some of us would have liked,
23:30I think. I would have liked to see more boldness in some of the things that Labour were putting
23:35forward. But on the other side, you know, there's a set of things that Labour have promised
23:41to do. Is it too safe? Well, this is probably why I was not the candidate. I would have
23:52been a little bit more bold. But we, you know, we've achieved a massive success with a very
23:58steady ship. And I think that was the right thing to do, you know, much as it might be
24:03a bit, you know, frustrating for some of us to want to see a bit more boldness. That's
24:09good. And that's obviously reassured people enough to lend us the vote. So that's good.
24:13I think in answering your question, I mean, how long is it? Either the hardening period
24:17or people's thoughts about politicians and politics? I think people are actually generally
24:22fed up with politics. But the problem is they're seeing that our country has got weaker, and
24:27our people have got poorer. And I think that is actually resonating to lots of people.
24:31We've had the referendum and we've had God knows how many general elections now in the
24:35last few years. I mean, I think people are, they just want a good government to look after
24:41the ship so they can live their own lives. That's the problem. We've had 14 years of
24:45a national decline and actually started to really impact the pennies and pounds in people's
24:49pockets big time. And that's why I think we've got a huge turnout, you know, in large parts
24:54of the country, because people are sick and tired of politicians not doing their job.
24:59People don't want to be doing voting every five seconds, in my opinion, maybe I'm wrong.
25:03They just want to be able to live their lives and be able to trust who's in number 10. And
25:07they haven't been able to do that for a very long time.
25:09And that also comes with some responsibility, though. This is what you often hear when you
25:13talk to politicians. It's 14 years of awfulness, and now it's going to be, and now it's going
25:19to, but we were left with a terrible, we were left in a terrible state. When does that shift
25:26and the party takes responsibility, Labour now, of course, but even other candidates,
25:32other parties. At what point, I always wonder this when I watch speeches, at what point
25:37do you stop picking on the others and just go, this is what we're doing, because it's
25:43taking that responsibility.
25:44I think the key thing about this is it's evidence of people putting the country first, which
25:49we didn't see from the Conservatives. I got the impression that basically they were very
25:56much in it for themselves or their mates. There was a sort of sense that the sort of
26:00country was being sort of asset stripped by people. There was all sorts of scandals during
26:05the situation with COVID, where people were making money, huge amounts of money, the VIP
26:14lanes, all of that. All of that says they were not putting the country first. Now, that
26:19will be the test of the new government, is you must put the country first and you must
26:24be seen to be doing that and doing it and delivering on that. And I think that's the
26:29difference at the moment that we've got with a new incoming Labour government, and that
26:33will be the test. That will be the test, that will be the standard that people hold us up
26:37to, and rightly so, actually, for any administration.
26:41I think Labour's got a year to sort of try their best, but I think the important thing
26:46is there's a lot of chit-chat already. I'm sure you've heard it, but there's suggestion
26:51that Keir Starmer might not survive to five years. When I've been going around the constituency,
26:56a lot of people have been saying that as well. I don't think Keir will last five years. A
27:00lot of people think Angela Marriner might slip in. So I don't think Keir's actually
27:04got a lot of time himself, actually, because when I've been going around, people on both
27:08sides of the political spectrum, I don't think he's inspiring. I think that's a fair
27:14comment-ish. So I don't actually think he's got a lot of time.
27:18I've heard him being called robotic.
27:19Yes, of course, and he's Blair without the flair. But you've got the autumn statement,
27:24we'll see how that goes. But I don't think Labour have got a long time. I think a lot
27:28of people have lent their vote, and we've seen this. Back in 2019, Brexiteers lent their
27:34vote to Boris Johnson and his government. We gave them an 80-seat majority, and they
27:39absolutely betrayed and backstabbed the British public. And if Labour don't deliver, and they
27:45don't follow their promises, and they don't actually get the nation into a recovery mode,
27:50I can actually foresee something very similar happening in the next five years. People just
27:54want their lives to get better. They don't want to feel poor. They don't want to be choosing
27:58between heating and eating. And I think both the main parties are in the same boat with
28:02that.
28:04We've got an administration that is less flashy, I think, than perhaps British people have
28:07been used to in the past. But I don't think that's a bad thing. And I think Keir is in
28:12it for the long term.
28:13More than a year.
28:15Absolutely. I think you're going to see Keir for the whole five-year term, without a doubt.
28:20What makes you think that, then?
28:23I mean, the guy's turned the Labour Party around. I mean, the job that he's done is
28:27incredible. And it's not an easy job to take us from where we were to where we are now.
28:33Maxwell, would you disagree that he hasn't turned the Labour Party around?
28:37Critics would suggest that, you know, your share of the national vote hasn't actually
28:42increased at all. Compared to 2017 and 2019, it's not as high up. And, you know, I mean,
28:48Keir lost 16,000 votes in his own constituency himself. You know, you've lost a handful of
28:54Labour MPs as well to independence. You know, in communities where 25% of the community
29:00are Muslim, you're down 26%. So it hasn't been the success story 100% for Labour. There
29:06are holes in, you know, notable holes. And, you know, I think if Keir doesn't deliver
29:12and if the Labour Party don't deliver, we are going to just see the exact same thing
29:15happen all over again.
29:16You can tell that he's had a bit of a rest because he remembers all them numbers so well.
29:21We're all struggling to the last stretch of this life.
29:25Yeah, I haven't had an energy drink until I had a sip about 10 minutes ago. I've been
29:30going on just tea. I don't know how I've done it. There's a question I've been asking a
29:34few of my guests and to balance this back and bring it back, the Conservatives haven't
29:39had it easy. We had a pandemic. We had an unprecedented, nobody knew how to deal with
29:44that. Would a Labour government have dealt with that better? We wouldn't possibly know.
29:48We couldn't know, though. We couldn't tell. We looked out at other countries that were
29:52a few months ahead of us. The war in Ukraine, the situation in Israel and Gaza, cost of
29:58living crisis that's rattled off the back of all these huge global events that have
30:02impacted us massively. We do have to be fair in saying that that was a turbulent time.
30:07You're being a bit too fair to the Conservatives, I think, in a pandemic.
30:10The Conservatives aren't here to defend themselves. That's true. They're not there anymore.
30:16Take the pandemic. We saw countries that were a few months ahead of us in terms of where
30:21they were in the curve of the pandemic. I think we could have taken some more lessons
30:25from them in terms of the way that we dealt with it.
30:28Hindsight's a wonderful thing.
30:30No, we had foresight because we'd seen other people go through it before us.
30:34But perhaps what if that was, at the time, the wrong decision? We just didn't know. Until
30:38we know now, potentially it was the right decision. This is what I mean by hindsight.
30:43To some extent, but I think you could see the numbers of deaths and various things that
30:46were going on and absolutely the disgrace of the way that the Conservatives acted.
30:52Most people, I'm sure you're the same, most people I knew were absolutely abiding by the
30:56rules and for them to be partying during that...
31:00I think that was a real turning point. We discussed that. That was the moment where
31:04people lost all important trust.
31:06No, it was. I think the only difference between Keir and Boris is that Boris had cake and
31:11Keir had a curry and beer. But the point is, both of them...
31:15Well, I think...
31:16It didn't get a fine.
31:17There wasn't.
31:18There wasn't a fine. But when you look at Labour and Conservatives during that period,
31:22both endorsed the three lockdowns, both Keir Starmer on record, as well as Boris Johnson.
31:28They both endorsed emergency legislation for looking at mandatory vaccination.
31:34So I think they would have dealt with the pandemic the same way.
31:38The Ukraine war, I think Boris was when he took into it.
31:42That was, I think, actually a redeeming quality about Boris.
31:45He actually had his Churchillian moment.
31:47He did, I think, step up to the plate with that, even though the lockdown,
31:50I think he let himself badly down.
31:53But no, can we excuse the Conservatives?
31:56Yes. No.
31:57But the point is that the British public have turned around and said,
32:00we're not happy with your track record.
32:01And I don't actually think people went out Vegas thinking about the cake or the COVID rules.
32:06They went to the polls thinking, well, immigration's got too high.
32:09We have a housing crisis. Our NHS is falling apart.
32:12I think there's a deeper level to the boat.
32:15And I think it's where do they see the Conservatives' priorities?
32:18Yes.
32:19I think they looked at the Conservatives and they thought,
32:21your priority is not on me and my family.
32:24It's on yourselves and your mates and feathering your own nests.
32:28And that we agree.
32:31And that's something to say for society as a whole.
32:35And our minds, the way we think, the way we feel, changing completely because of COVID.
32:39It changed a lot.
32:40Before you would look at a party, you'd look at the, you know,
32:42Rishi Sunak outlined those five things he was going to do in January.
32:46And people would, you know, you know, in a pre-pandemic world,
32:50people would, these are priorities for me.
32:52Immigration's a priority. Stopping the small boats for me.
32:54The NHS priority for me.
32:56Somehow after the COVID pandemic, people lost loved ones unexpectedly.
33:01Families were separated. Lots of hardships.
33:04I think people look at their priorities and they, not don't care,
33:07but it just sort of drew a line and it was like, my family's what matter.
33:11And as you say there, perhaps they didn't feel like that was...
33:14And I think on a positive, there's a return to this idea
33:17that there should be a level of public service from your MPs.
33:21And absolutely right, there should be.
33:24An MP is a public servant at the highest level.
33:27And I think people would want that back.
33:29Have you both been out on the campaign trail a little late?
33:33Absolutely. I've been knocking on so many doors.
33:36Have you, I asked someone else this earlier,
33:39Kelly Graham from Dartford Borough Council.
33:42Have you knocked on someone's door?
33:44Have you knocked on someone's door, had a conversation with them?
33:47I imagine you've had people throw a hand to you,
33:50but I also imagine, has anybody said,
33:53actually, I've spoken to you for five minutes, you've changed my mind.
33:56Have you had any, be honest with this.
33:58We don't need to count numbers here
34:01and count votes on the street,
34:03but more about if you've actually experienced that,
34:05if door knocking actually works.
34:07Because if you can get five people in a day, that's just five votes.
34:10Every vote matters, but it really is,
34:13you're spending a lot of time getting those.
34:15I would say door knocking still matters in 2024, absolutely.
34:19It's that level of contact and it shows that you care about the people,
34:23that you can be bothered to be on the doors.
34:26And I think the Conservatives were not knocking as many doors as we were.
34:30Absolutely not.
34:32And that will not have helped them at all.
34:35I think there's been a lot of complacency.
34:37A lot of MPs were in what they saw as very safe seats
34:41and they didn't do as much door knocking.
34:43I think they relied a lot on social media
34:45and social media is tremendously important.
34:47We had a massive social media campaign ourselves,
34:50but I think door knocking is hugely important.
34:53It does, yeah, you can change minds on the doors.
34:56The dynamic was quite interesting this time.
34:59There were a lot of people that were undecided
35:02and I think a lot of people were making their mind up,
35:05perhaps even on the day at the polling station.
35:08But I think the other thing is actually being on the polling stations as well.
35:14We had a lot of polling stations that had a Labour member there
35:19or a local ward member, borough councillor there.
35:22That makes a huge difference.
35:24I would say that's several percentage points you can make
35:28in terms of just having someone there.
35:30There was no other candidates on the polling station
35:33of the ward that I represent.
35:35No other candidates, which is quite surprising.
35:38It brings it back to the intention, the design.
35:43It's obviously for a party, for an overall control,
35:46but it's about voting for the MP.
35:48It's about voting for the person that you can see
35:51walking down your high street and you say,
35:53oh, I know them, that's my local councillor,
35:55that's my councillor leader.
35:57Even on the polling station, you're not allowed to canvas,
36:00but you're just there.
36:01You can say hello, good morning, good afternoon.
36:03They see you there, they see you can be bothered.
36:06That's the difference that you can make as a local person.
36:10It's all about being visual as well.
36:12If you look at the four seats that we reformed,
36:15the entire campaign for all four,
36:17because I know the gentleman quite well in each of those situations
36:20and the people on the ground, it was completely door-knocking.
36:23It was going around each home, talking to people, one-on-one.
36:26I mean, I know that for Faberge and MacKendon,
36:29a lot of literature was sent to people's homes,
36:31but when we were down in Downswood,
36:33we were knocking and bursting,
36:35people said, you're the only candidates
36:37who've actually been door-knocking to us.
36:39That does make a difference because we did speak to one or two people,
36:42I'm not going to pretend it's hundreds,
36:44but one or two people said, actually, we weren't going to vote,
36:46but we will vote for you now.
36:48I've heard anecdotes of people not interested in politics,
36:51wouldn't switch on the news even,
36:54and someone knocked on their door,
36:56and when polling day, when it came,
36:58and that was back for the local election,
37:00they just wandered on down and they voted for the person
37:02that knocked on their door, regardless of party,
37:04it was for them in that moment, they had no idea,
37:06and that was the person who made effort.
37:08So it goes to show, and I still, I think,
37:10you don't see that many people not doing it,
37:12it really is such a huge part of politics,
37:14it's one of those traditional things that won't die,
37:16that social media won't take away,
37:18it's just social media becomes a platform
37:20to promote that you're doing that as well.
37:22Just a quick question on social media,
37:24and then we'll wrap up and all get a bit of shut-eye,
37:27or go on to our news programme.
37:30But social media, the influence that has,
37:33of course, the way we're regulated by Ofcom,
37:36we have to stop talking about the election,
37:38that's why you have the infamous dogs at polling stations,
37:41which is the best part of the day,
37:43seeing all the dogs waiting outside.
37:45But, you know, it's in the papers,
37:47but social media, completely unregulated,
37:50there's certain rules we all have to abide to and stuff,
37:53but it's very different on social media.
37:55And also, someone mentioned to me,
37:57it's called the ring doorbell election,
37:59because everybody sees you on the ring doorbell on your phone,
38:02and then they don't want to answer.
38:04I've seen many videos of politicians
38:06waving at the ring doorbell and being ignored.
38:09Do you think social media has had an impact this time?
38:12It's going to keep unravelling in the years and growing.
38:15I think the ring doorbell thing is fascinating, yes,
38:17because I think we all see that,
38:19but I think that's maybe election fatigue.
38:21I think people are somewhat tired of politics in general.
38:25Not everybody, but there are people who think this is a bit much.
38:28Six weeks is quite a long time, isn't it?
38:30To have people's attention, a lot of the other news disappears,
38:33and you're just seeing constant stuff about...
38:35It's been a long time, but gone so quickly.
38:37So the ring doorbell, yes, they're seeing a candidate on the doorbell
38:40and they're thinking, no, I'd rather just carry on eating my tea or whatever.
38:43And then put it on X.
38:45I do think the thing about where I think a lot of candidates
38:49across a lot of political parties go wrong
38:52is they do think that X is the answer to everything.
38:55And you're right, it's actually just supposed to be a tool.
38:57When you're electioneering, you go and speak to people,
38:59you knock on their doors, you hand a leaflet,
39:01and you don't just leaflet and run away.
39:03If you can get the opportunity to speak to someone, you should do it.
39:07And I think, you know, Nigel Farage,
39:09he got 39 billion views in the last few weeks.
39:12It's crazy, but that hasn't been the case.
39:15Reformers have been spending all their money on that.
39:17Quite the contrary, actually.
39:19They've been spending more money on leafleting
39:21and ensuring that people have got literature
39:23and that they've got the support for posters, etc., and all that.
39:26And politics, right now in Britain, it's still the old-school wins.
39:30That proper way of doing it, knocking people's doors.
39:33And I think social media is fantastic,
39:36but I do think if you purely focus on that,
39:39you're not going to be getting into people's homes.
39:41You know, again, look at the Tories.
39:43They did some quite weird ads.
39:45There was an ad with a red carpet on the beach of Dover
39:48suggesting that everyone's lining themselves up now
39:51that Keir's going to be Prime Minister.
39:53Irony being, of course, 50,000 since Rich Sunak said
39:56he was going to stop the boats.
39:58But all that stuff's well and good,
40:00but actually it's not going to change people's minds.
40:02You've got to talk to people.
40:03If you want to get their trust and you want to get their vote,
40:06you have to be direct about it.
40:07You've got to be on all of the platforms, doing all of them.
40:09Oh, yes, yes.
40:10It makes it a very hard job to do it all, for sure.
40:13I don't envy you.
40:14OK, Dick and Spain, Maxwell, Harrison,
40:16thank you both so much for joining me.
40:18We're going to hear now from the Lib Dem Mike Martin
40:22in Tunbridge Wells, who was successful.
40:25It's a very short clip.
40:26We're going to get you guys out for some rest
40:28and our next guest in, but let's hear from Mike Martin now.
40:31I do hereby declare that Mike Martin is duly elected.
40:37CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
40:54We are standing in the aftermath of a political earthquake.
41:01Tunbridge Wells has had a Conservative Member of Parliament
41:05for 114 years, but no more.