S3E6: Symptomatic Medication vs. Healing Medication | Special Guest: Missy
Genetic test PYP450 | Oregon: no more hard MME limits | Missy's Journey
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00:00:00Thank you all for joining us for Season 3, Episode 6 of DocTalks with Dr. Forest Tennant.
00:00:07We have a special guest tonight, Missy, and we're excited to have an interview with her.
00:00:12Dr. Tennant and Dr. Ibsen have a great show ahead of us. Thank you so much for being with us.
00:00:17Thank you. Dr. Tennant, please take it away. Thank you very much. We're delighted to have
00:00:22another good show, and we're going to cover some messages tonight that we really haven't
00:00:27covered before. I'm going to start this session off by telling you about a letter I received this
00:00:34week, a rather unbelievable letter in one respect. First off, the person who wrote me was pretty
00:00:43standard these days, EDS, arachnoiditis, intractable pain, and she was writing me because
00:00:51she was deteriorating, not doing well. Now, that's not unusual. Now, what was unusual
00:00:58is she said she had an implanted electrical stimulator, but she also had an implanted
00:01:04morphine pump. Now, I don't know that I've ever encountered anybody with both devices, okay?
00:01:14And what was amazing, and she was desperate, she's deteriorating, she's not getting better,
00:01:20and so the story is this. I said, well, now, what did your doctor tell you about all this?
00:01:32She said, well, they told me that when I put the stimulator in, it was going to take care of me,
00:01:38take care of me. And that didn't, so I had the pump put in, and they said that'll take care of
00:01:44everything. Between these two devices, you're going to be cured, you're going to be fine,
00:01:50your life is anew. And indeed, for a while, apparently, she got along pretty well.
00:01:57Then she started to deteriorate. Now, here is the lesson that can't be repeated often enough,
00:02:07and that is the difference between symptomatic medication and healing medication, okay?
00:02:16Symptomatic and healing. Now, symptomatic medication means that you get some temporary
00:02:22relief. Healing medications mean that you reduce the severity of your disease or your injury.
00:02:30Now, in recent years, the whole concept of healing or reducing the severity of illness has almost
00:02:38gotten lost in the shuffle because physicians and patients and families have had to fight so hard
00:02:47just to get a modicum of pain relief, we almost have forgotten healing. So when I hear that a
00:02:54doctor is criticized for not telling somebody something, well, I'm not, wasn't in their shoes,
00:02:59perhaps the doctor, it was the best he could do to get that person just a little relief,
00:03:05okay? And apparently, that's what happened in this case. I asked the patient, I said,
00:03:12well, now, did they talk to you about inflammation? Well, no. Did they talk to you about autoimmunity?
00:03:19Well, no, they didn't know what that was. Well, what about restoring any tissues or regrowing
00:03:27scars or eliminating scars, anything like that? No, they never mentioned it. They just said that
00:03:32I'd be fine with these two things. Well, she's not fine. As a matter of fact, her deterioration
00:03:40has gone quite a bit down the line. Now, let's, again, those of you who have watched this show
00:03:47know very well that I advocate three components to treatment. Pain relief or symptomatic pain
00:03:54relief is one. Now, pain relief, you got to have. And Dr. Ibsen, who's on here with me, my partner,
00:04:00there's nobody advocates for patients more than he does. He knows more than anybody.
00:04:05If you don't get some relief, you really have a hard time participating in the other components,
00:04:10okay? Got to have enough pain relief to even think about restoration of nerves or
00:04:16reducing autoimmunity. I mean, it's tough to do that if you're in constant severe pain. So,
00:04:22you got to have pain relief as step one, if you will. But what you do need to know is that
00:04:30drugs like oxycodone, fentanyl do not do anything for your inflammation, for your autoimmunity,
00:04:39and it does not heal tissues, at least directly, okay? Now, something simple like
00:04:46plain old vitamin C or D, believe it or not, that has some healing power. So,
00:04:54you got to separate in your mind real quick what these different things do. Now, I've got a new
00:05:01study coming out, and I'm going to be asking people to list their medicinals for inflammation
00:05:08and autoimmunity, and then separately their medicinals for tissue regeneration and restoration
00:05:15and symptomatic pain relief. Now, I've tested this questionnaire out. I've got about a dozen back,
00:05:22and do you know not one person, none, zero, could tell me which three components their medicines
00:05:29went in. Now, if you can't do that, you really are up a creek without a paddle when you try to deal
00:05:37with such severe diseases as Ehlers-Danlos syndrome or arachnoiditis or CRPS or post-stroke
00:05:46or small fiber neuropathy, which we're going to talk about. So, you really have to start thinking
00:05:53in terms of these three components, and what do your medicinals do? And if you're not certain,
00:05:59go find out. Figure this out. You're going to have to know about those things.
00:06:05Okay. Now, I'm going to step forward for a minute and introduce a term to you that, frankly,
00:06:12every pain patient in this country should have known a decade ago, but doesn't, and that's the
00:06:17term neurosteroids. Okay? Now, I'm going to bet you there isn't more than 1% of you who are
00:06:23listening to this who even know what I'm talking about, and it's a tragedy you do not because
00:06:29dealing with severe intractable pain conditions requires you to understand what's called
00:06:36neurosteroids. Now, everybody thinks of steroids when they hear that term. They think about
00:06:43cortisone. Well, that is a steroid, but the term steroid only means a chemical structure.
00:06:49And so, cortisone, we have cortical steroids. That's one class of steroids. And if you follow
00:06:57sports, you're probably familiar with the term anabolic steroids, which means tissue growth,
00:07:06tissue regeneration. Now, athletes like to take those because they can build tissue and get
00:07:11athletic advantage, but some of those are neurosteroids. Now, what is a neurosteroid?
00:07:19Some 10 years ago, some very bright researchers discovered that the spinal cord
00:07:27makes a set of hormones that are in the steroid structure, but these hormones in the spinal cord
00:07:35are there to knock out inflammation in the spinal cord and to heal your tissues. Okay? Now, you're
00:07:43familiar with some of these because they're made not only in the spinal cord, but they may be made
00:07:48in the testicle or the ovary or in the adrenal gland. For example, estrogen is really a neurosteroid.
00:07:55It's also made in your spinal cord. Testosterone is also. Some of you are familiar with pregnenolone.
00:08:02Some of you are familiar with what's called DHEA, which is a short for a big long term
00:08:08called dehydroepiandrosterone, but you don't need to know that. Just DHEA will be fine.
00:08:13You've got progesterone. Some of you have heard of that. And so, at any rate, these are some of
00:08:21the major ones, and there are some that are lesser known like nandrolone or androstenedione
00:08:26or allopregnenolone, but you don't need to know those things. Just the major ones.
00:08:31But here is the message that you must know, and that is these neurosteroids are necessary for,
00:08:40first off, pain relief. I don't know why this is not common knowledge,
00:08:47but what's called the opioid receptor, your action point in the nervous system that gives
00:08:53you that pain relief doesn't function very well if you have a deficiency in any one
00:09:01of those neurosteroids. You don't have enough pregnenolone. Don't count on much pain relief.
00:09:07You don't have much enough testosterone, and that's males and females. Don't expect much
00:09:12pain relief. And then the second thing is you're not going to get much healing power
00:09:19because these are the hormones that the good Lord puts in your spinal fluid to heal your tissues.
00:09:24You've got arachnoiditis. You've got slipped disc. You've got Tarlov cysts. You better know
00:09:31what your hormones are. Now, one of the reasons on why doctors didn't want to talk about the
00:09:38hormones was that 10 years ago, to get these things analyzed in a laboratory was almost
00:09:43impossible. Today, they're a panel. I mean, for a fairly low cost, the laboratories today,
00:09:50all the big ones, Quest, LabCorp, they all run panels of these hormones, so it's not hard to get
00:09:56them. Now, I'm going to whet your appetite for just a moment because I'm going to talk about
00:10:02a neurohormone that some of you may know about it, but very few, and that's the hormone
00:10:08pregnenolone. Okay? Pregnenolone. Now, pregnenolone historically was discovered in the
00:10:151940s, and it was the medication given to people with rheumatoid arthritis before the discovery of
00:10:23prednisone, and so it actually has cortical steroid activities. But the study I want to tell
00:10:30you about has to do with rats in a cage. These rats had their spinal cord severed, so the rats
00:10:40would walk around in the cage dragging their hind legs. They were given pregnenolone, and the rats
00:10:47healed. They started walking normally around the cage. This was also demonstrated in some of the
00:10:54other neurosteroids. Now, I'm introducing it tonight, but I only want to say one thing.
00:11:01If you have a condition, arachnoiditis, EDS, CRPS, or any of the intractable pain syndromes,
00:11:10and you're not getting better, your medication has quit working, you need a neurosteroid hormone
00:11:18panel. End of discussion. You need to have that panel, and you need to be taking any hormone
00:11:26that you happen to be deficient in. It might surprise you. Some males need to have estradiol.
00:11:33Some females need to have testosterone, and all the doctors and nurse practitioners pretty well
00:11:38know how to administer these things. Anyway, neurosteroids are something I want to introduce
00:11:44you to because they're hardly symptomatic. They're real healers, and most of you probably
00:11:50need one or the other. Incidentally, pregnenolone and DHEA do not require a prescription. They're
00:11:57in health food stores or can be acquired over the internet, and those are two safe, inexpensive
00:12:04neurosteroids that I do want everyone to know about and know that they're accessible and they're
00:12:10testable. Now, the third thing I want to talk about tonight is false promotion or untested
00:12:22promotion of compounds, and unfortunately, social media isn't helping very much in this category.
00:12:32Now, what stimulated my bringing this up this week is that I got a great big four-color
00:12:41newspaper-size advertisement this week put out by a very reputable company.
00:12:50Big Ad says, natural compound has the pain-relieving capability of morphine.
00:12:57Let me repeat that again. Big letters by a reputable company. Big, big paper.
00:13:05Natural hormone, natural herbal product has healing or pain-relieving potential or capability
00:13:11as morphine. Turns out, I've tested that compound, okay? I couldn't get it to relieve a flea,
00:13:19okay? But anyway, it didn't work for me. Now, it might work for somebody else.
00:13:27Now, also, I hope Rhonda, is Rhonda Posey on tonight? She said she might not be here, but
00:13:36is she here? And apparently not. She said her computer may not be working. Anyway.
00:13:43She's not here yet, but she might come soon, probably.
00:13:48She brought to my attention and asked me about a compound that's going around on social media
00:13:56that is supposed to save everybody, okay? Now, we get what I call the savior a week,
00:14:02okay? The savior a week. And so, somebody out there on social media is promoting something.
00:14:11Two weeks ago, it was microcurrent. This week, it's quinolidine. Next week,
00:14:16guys knows what it is, okay? But I don't want people to be falling for this because, you know,
00:14:22on social media, you can have somebody from a company get on there and masquerade as a patient
00:14:28and say, oh, I took this thing and I was saved. And I call it the savior of the week. Now, you
00:14:35can't fall for savior of the week, okay? Now, our foundation has a project that never dawned on me,
00:14:43we never do in life, but nevertheless, we are trying to monitor the aged medicinals,
00:14:52both prescription and non-prescription, that patients tell us work, okay? That they work.
00:14:59Now, here is an issue that I want everybody to know. Everybody's heard about random double-blind
00:15:08crossover studies. Now, that's what FDA requires a pharmaceutical company to do
00:15:15to bring a drug onto the commercial prescription market. If it is a non-prescription,
00:15:24the FDA does have regulations and they're very good. There's nothing wrong with them at all.
00:15:31And they allow these compounds to come on the market as long as they've looked at them and said,
00:15:38yeah, there's no issue with safety as far as we can tell. And so, we do have what's called a
00:15:44nutritional supplement act in the United States, and it allows these non-prescription herbal and
00:15:50natural products to come on the market. Now, I for one, and I know most of you watching this are all
00:15:57for these new medicinals, for example, the new peptides and the dynamite. We do have some other
00:16:05natural compounds that are working. And so, what I'm trying to do, and you can help,
00:16:11everybody out there listening can help, and that is trying to catalog, put together what
00:16:18are popular agents being used. Now, those popularity doesn't mean there was a double-blind
00:16:24control randomized trial. But what it does mean is that those people who've got the disease think
00:16:31they're getting some help from it. Frankly, I think that's a pretty good study. Okay? As a matter of
00:16:37fact, we've got to rely on that study. Only you folks who have the disease can tell us what works.
00:16:44We're never going to have double-blind randomized studies of neurosteroids or polypeptides or
00:16:52collagen or amino acids or minerals. There's no money in these. Okay? And so, since there's no
00:17:00money in it, we're on our own. But these non-prescription medicinals, whether they're
00:17:08herbal or natural, we've got to have. Now, let me define those real quick. Everybody needs to know
00:17:13what we mean when we use the term herbal or natural. Herbal has come to mean anything that
00:17:21comes from a botanical plant. It's plant-based. Now, trees are plants. Weeds are plants. Roots are plants.
00:17:30Okay? So, plants cover a broad category. Okay? Now, natural means it's inside the human body.
00:17:40Okay? It's made naturally in our bodies. It means as we're sitting here watching this podcast or
00:17:46giving it, in my case, certain things are floating around our blood and our lymph and our serum
00:17:52that are natural. Okay? Now, I can't think of a better example of natural herbal
00:18:02entrepreneurialism, which good companies have figured this out. But a lot of you out there
00:18:08take a drug, a medicinal, in which they combine what's called PEA. It stands for a big long name,
00:18:14palmitoylethanolamide. You don't need to know that. You need to know PEA. And they've combined,
00:18:19that's a natural compound. That's in all our bodies. It's a pain reliever. It's a natural
00:18:24pain reliever. And they've combined it with a herbal product called luteolin. Now, luteolin
00:18:30is a great favorite. It's been one of the things that's been shown to prevent reactivation of
00:18:36hepatitis B. It cuts down inflammation. And a lot of people, that combination of PEA and luteolin
00:18:44has been dynamite for them. Not everybody, but it's a good natural herbal compound. And so,
00:18:49we want those things. Now, what I'm going to be doing, and which some of you are going to get in
00:18:53your email here today or tomorrow, I've put together my list, from what I can ascertain,
00:19:00of the popular natural herbal compounds in the three components. Pain relief,
00:19:07inflammation suppression, and autoimmune suppression, and regeneration of tissues.
00:19:13Now, and so, we're going to try to keep that up. In other words, you hear something about
00:19:18on social media, find out, well, gee, who else is using it? What do you know about it?
00:19:23Give us the facts, okay? And so, that's what we're after, okay? So, don't buy the minute you hear
00:19:31that somebody thinks something is good, because you just don't know what they're talking about.
00:19:35You don't know who's promoting it. However, when two out of three people you encounter say,
00:19:40yeah, that's pretty good, let's recognize that, okay? And one other thing, here on this podcast,
00:19:47we don't take any money from anybody, but if that product's any good, we don't care who's making it,
00:19:52we'll promote it, okay? So, that's where we're at on that. Okay, we're going to move on now
00:20:01to another subject. Yes? Yeah, real quickly. Oh, sure. I want to invite our participants and
00:20:10everybody who's doing their own experiential research, which is basically the scientific
00:20:16model. The scientific model is establish a hypothesis, test the hypothesis, and then
00:20:23readjust your hypothesis based on your test results. So, anybody can test anything.
00:20:31What you sometimes see on social media is somebody will say, oh, this is the greatest
00:20:34stuff ever, and someone says it doesn't work. I tried it. So, to cut down on conflict and
00:20:42argumentation in the network, I invite people to say, this worked for me, or this didn't work for
00:20:50me, which keeps your neutrality in terms of the politics of it down in terms of argumentation and
00:21:00people taking a stand about something. So, I want to encourage everybody to try lots of stuff.
00:21:07Let us know when it helps. Let us know if it didn't help you, and leave the pejoratives out
00:21:13of it in terms of somebody would have to be an idiot to use this stuff or something like that.
00:21:17So, we want to learn what you guys know, and we don't want to argue about it.
00:21:24Yeah, there you go. Well said, Mark. Thank you very much.
00:21:27Thanks.
00:21:28Absolutely. I've got two other things I want to call to people's attention here on the show
00:21:34tonight. For years, I, as well as every other doctor out there, had patients who would come to
00:21:43them and say, you know, I didn't have tar loss until I had a car accident, or I fell off a roof
00:21:53and hurt my back, but now I've got migraine headaches. I hurt my shoulder playing football,
00:22:01and now I've got arachnoiditis. I took an epidural, and I've got arachnoiditis. In other words, people
00:22:08have related trauma of some kind to a disease state, and frankly, we doctors didn't have an
00:22:17answer. Most of the time, we thought, well, maybe they're a little touched in the head. Maybe they
00:22:24didn't know what they were talking about. We didn't know either, but what I want to introduce
00:22:29to you is that the new research out there does pretty clearly now show that traumatic stress
00:22:39does reactivate the Epstein-Barr virus, and that leads to Epstein-Barr autoimmunity.
00:22:47Okay. In other words, we now have a logical scientific reason to know why something even
00:22:58like surgery, or an epidural injection, an auto accident, a sports injury, can lead
00:23:08to something later in life, and that's mediated. We doctors like to use the term mediated or
00:23:15modulated, or it's really engineered, that's a better term probably, engineered by the Epstein-Barr
00:23:23reactivation. Now, I want to also, on each show, I'm going to talk a little bit probably about the
00:23:30Epstein-Barr virus. The research is voluminous. There are several new papers out, and so a lot
00:23:37of people around this globe, not just in the United States, but worldwide, are really trying
00:23:41to understand this parasitic virus that can activate and cause disease. Now, I want to
00:23:48introduce a disease that a lot of you out there have. A lot of you out there know all about burning
00:23:55feet, burning crotches, burning pieces somewhere on your, in your mouth. You've got burning.
00:24:04Now, that looks like that is mainly due to something called small fiber neuropathy.
00:24:11Now, a lot of people have burning or pain down a leg, or an arm, or
00:24:17in the perineum, means anything in your crotch from the rectum to the front, exactly where you
00:24:22don't want anything, obviously, but you get this burning, and it's a terrible pain,
00:24:28it's a terrible pain. And we now know most of that is what's called small fiber neuropathy.
00:24:36Now, let me tell you about small fiber neuropathy. We think most of it is caused
00:24:41by autoimmunity, number one. Number two, there have been a lot of biopsies taken
00:24:48from patients who have small fiber neuropathy. Now, what's interesting is what you see on the
00:24:56biopsy, guess what? We call it neuropathy, it's a wrong term. The fibers are gone.
00:25:04It's actually absence of nerve fibers, okay? In other words, the autoimmunity has burnt them all
00:25:12out, apparently, and why does it burn? Those small nerve fibers take your electricity of the body
00:25:18and transmit them normally to the skin to go out into the air. If those fibers are gone, guess what?
00:25:27That electricity gets trapped under the skin, all right? Gets trapped under the skin, and it
00:25:32does it burn, and it is hot, it can come and go. But I want to introduce everybody here tonight,
00:25:38small fiber neuropathy, what science thinks is causing it, what we see on the biopsies,
00:25:46and I'm going to ask Dr. Ibsen to chime in on this for a minute, and if Dr. Klein's around,
00:25:52I'd like to have him make any comments about it. What we've been calling, oftentimes,
00:25:57just neuropathy or CRPS or radiculopathy or something, often it's turning out that these
00:26:04are small fiber neuropathies, meaning we call them a neuropathy, but it's actually an absence
00:26:11of small nerves. And that also tells us why a lot of things work pretty well that we don't think.
00:26:18A lot of doctors and therapists over the years have said, you know, stick a needle under the
00:26:22skin and it gets better. Sometimes that's called dry needling or acupuncture. And massage, some of
00:26:31these techniques work on this, but not the severe cases. And at this point, I would like to make a
00:26:39statement that I hope I'm wrong. The only thing I have found medicinally that helps that is one of
00:26:46the benzodiazepines, the Valium, the Librium, the Xanax, the Ativan. I haven't been able to find any
00:26:55other compound that really does help most people. Now, I'm talking about small fiber neuropathy and
00:27:02burning crotches and burning feet and burning mouth to ask anybody out there who has this,
00:27:08and I know a lot of you have it. If you have found something that works, maybe it's an old
00:27:13poultice, the water soaking. I don't care what it is. If you are finding some relief from your
00:27:19burning issues, we want to know about it because right now nobody has any answers. I can give you
00:27:27what little answer I have. Anyway, Mark, you're there. I know I'm swinging this on you.
00:27:34What do you know that you could add? I hope you know more than I know about this.
00:27:38Well, I don't, but I do know A, it's real, and I've been vexed by several patients who have
00:27:45these syndromes. One guy I remember, nothing objective in his entire exam. His mouth was
00:27:52burning. He'd had a lot of his teeth taken out. It was bilateral, so it didn't seem to be
00:27:59trigeminal neuralgia, but just an agonizing mouth pain that was constantly burning.
00:28:05I think the only thing that helped him was opiates. I have another person who's suicidal
00:28:12and not quite ready to take an opiate, but who has it in her clitoris. She had an injection,
00:28:21some prolotherapy there. I can't remember the reason, but it was just more trauma added onto
00:28:28the trauma. You want some agony, that'll do it. Other than the mind-body connection stuff,
00:28:41she hadn't found anything either. I'm eager for at least these two patients that I know of,
00:28:48for them to have a solution would be a wonderful thing because they're treated
00:28:52like criminals because there's no objective information. Most of them are very familiar
00:28:58with the psychiatric terms because they've seen several shrinks and therapists and everything,
00:29:03and they continue to be frustrated by it. A doctor with a palliative care practice
00:29:09has a hard time treating something that you can't find a justification for to defend yourself
00:29:15against your board of medicine. These are some of the most challenging patients, and I want to
00:29:20learn more about this. Thank you very much, well said. Just one real quick thing. I do know of a
00:29:27number of patients who have found a good compounding pharmacy in their community.
00:29:34I didn't come up with this, but it was brought to me, and I've prescribed it a few times,
00:29:37and that is Valium suppositories, either rectal or vaginally. That's helped a lot of people.
00:29:45This idea of defending them, we are going to have to have biopsies done, and a lot of the
00:29:51laboratories are starting to offer that biopsy service now. It's just a little piece of the
00:29:56skin taken out, but it's very diagnostic. I'd like to go on now to our interview. We've got a
00:30:02very interesting guest here tonight. Jamie? Yes, sir. We have our guest, Missy Hulse.
00:30:13She's with us this evening. Let's see if we can get her on here. Hi, Missy. Are you with us? Yes.
00:30:20Welcome to the show. Thanks for being with us. Thank you. Hi, Dr. Tennant. Missy, yes, good to
00:30:27see you. Good to see you. Missy, first off, where do you live? I'm in Florida. You're in Florida.
00:30:37Okay. Any special place in Florida? The northeast. Yeah, the northeast. Okay.
00:30:46What is your basic disease? I was born with spina bifida, a meningenital,
00:30:54and it was repaired in 1968. I really didn't have, well, I had some seizures up until I was four.
00:31:07I didn't really have any problems except for actually the onset of my menstrual cycle.
00:31:16I started having some migraines pretty bad, and then I noticed here and there I had the radiating
00:31:24pains that came. It always came through my vaginal area, down my leg to my foot,
00:31:32my left leg to my foot. That was only a little bit, nothing that ever really bothered me.
00:31:40I didn't know I had spina bifida. My mom always just told me that I had a big cyst in my back,
00:31:49and they removed it, that I was fine. I didn't know I had spina bifida until I ended up going
00:31:55to a neurologist. She said, do you know you had spina bifida when you were born or something,
00:32:05didn't you? You've got a big scar on your back. I said, no. My mom told me I had a big cyst on my
00:32:12back that they repaired or they took out. She said, no, honey, you had spina bifida. I'm surprised
00:32:19you're even walking. I said, well, I am. She said she checked my legs out and everything,
00:32:26so that was that. Then I fell at age 29, straight down on my spine. Then for eight months,
00:32:37I kept waking up and my back just like almost every day, probably wasn't every day, but
00:32:44there for a while, it just felt like it was cracking. Every time I got up, it would just pop,
00:32:50pop, pop. I was just in so much pain. I finally went to my primary. He sent me for an MRI,
00:33:01and it came back. He told me, I'm so sorry, but you have arachnoiditis. It actually said clumping
00:33:10of the nerve roots. Now that I read more about it, it said clumping of the nerve roots.
00:33:18Then I went to a neurologist, and he started doing all these tests on me and stuff.
00:33:26They put me on some pain medicine, did a bunch of tests. I started going to a pain clinic after
00:33:33I left him, and they put me on a bunch of medicine. That's when 2016 hit.
00:33:45It was like they lowered your medication, and I ended up getting in a big argument with that
00:33:52doctor and told him one size doesn't fit at all. He was banging his fist on the desk at me and
00:33:59just telling me that I was killing myself taking all these opioids. He's a pain doctor,
00:34:06but he was an addiction doctor too. It was just ridiculous. Anyway, so I went and
00:34:16had to consult with another doctor and asked her, would she be able to give me something that would
00:34:23help me because I was on this much medicine. That gave me a quality of life. She said we could
00:34:31work on it. I left them, and she did. She's been great. I told her I did not want any kind of
00:34:39injections. We've worked that out. Every neurologist that I went to, they just said
00:34:51they didn't deal with my problems. They said that it was just too much. They only dealt with MS, or
00:34:59they only dealt with different problems that I would have to go. Now, this has been 20 plus years
00:35:09going to different neurologists, or they dealt with that I would have to go all the way to
00:35:15Cleveland Clinic or something to find somebody that would deal with a case of arachnoiditis.
00:35:24So, basically, I went down to a university and was seen there for a while.
00:35:36I ended up back at another doctor's because it was a way for me to drive.
00:35:41They still just weren't doing nothing for me. Now, 20 years later, I have
00:35:52scoliosis now. I have five protruding discs, spinal disc disease, and the neurologist at
00:36:01the university said, neurosurgeon at the university says that I'll probably have to have surgery
00:36:09because of the protruding discs, but he said not now, but I have scoliosis.
00:36:16First, it was just to the left. Now, it's to scoliosis
00:36:25to an S. I have Raynard syndrome. I did have a high FCN bar score
00:36:34years ago, and when my son was born, he was born with cytomegalovirus, or I caught cytomegalovirus
00:36:45in my late pregnancy because I guess I was one of 10% that wasn't carrying it
00:36:52from what the infectious disease told me, that 90% of carry the virus, but I wasn't a carrier. So,
00:37:00when I was watching a little girl that I was changing her diaper and stuff, and she was sick,
00:37:10that I probably caught it from her. So, I don't know, but anyway, he was just,
00:37:20I'm not saying just, but he ended up being deaf from it, which was off, which was better than
00:37:27it could have been, but they did, recently, they did a whole panel of blood work on me,
00:37:37and I did come out with a high ANA and different, some things were high, but I don't know what they,
00:37:47I don't understand it all, but the rheumatologist I've seen there, they, she was like it wasn't,
00:37:54none of it was a big deal. So, but that's about it. I mean,
00:38:07everything that you've talked about, how you get one thing, and then, or the AA, and then it goes,
00:38:15it can cause all these other things, like the disc and the scoliosis, and
00:38:22it seems like it just all was like added up in me, you know, because I just started out with
00:38:32thymbifida, and then I get the AA, which I already had all the scar tissue, because
00:38:37when I gave birth to my daughter 40 years ago, and then my son 30 years later, he's 36,
00:38:46all the, I wanted an epidural, and the anesthesiologist, two different ones,
00:38:55three years later, and I lifted up my gown, and was like, oh, we wouldn't even know where to stick
00:39:01an epidural, I knew. I mean, I just looked at my back, and I've only had one surgery, and that was
00:39:08when I was four days old. So, I guess my back just looked like I had a lot of scar tissue.
00:39:19Missy, what, I'm a little confused here. Are you scheduled to have,
00:39:29I'd like to kind of hear what you're doing now for your treatment, and did they ever use the word,
00:39:35if you've got a positive ANA, I mean, where did they say that came from?
00:39:40Well, I guess all the inflammation in my body. I mean, sometimes I feel like
00:39:46I can't, like my shirts fit different, because I'm so swollen around this, you know, my bra area,
00:39:55because I lean to the left. I'll be standing there, and then all of a sudden, I'm leaning to the left.
00:40:02I can't even stand up straight, and by the end of the day,
00:40:06orthopedic doctors told me, I said, you know, by the end of the day, I'm leaning so bad that I'm
00:40:13leaning, if I'm sitting down, and I'm out of function or something for my grandkids, I'm
00:40:19leaning on the person next to me, because I can't even sit up straight. Do you feel that you're
00:40:26deteriorating? Oh, yeah, definitely. Can you walk at all now? Oh, yeah, I can walk, but my legs are
00:40:36so weak, and it hurts. I mean, it hurts to walk. I mean, but I have to, because I take care of my
00:40:45husband, who has an oxygen injury and Lance Adams syndrome. Are you scheduled for surgery for all
00:40:53those discs? No. No, okay, uh-huh, and do you want to, we're going to need to move on, but
00:41:04do you have any last things you'd like to say about your situation, or what you'd like to see,
00:41:09what you'd like to know? Well, I would like to know what stage of AA I'm in. I mean, I do do
00:41:18treatments. I mean, some of the three component treatments for myself, and I'm going to add,
00:41:28now that I have the funds to add on to it, the colostrum and the things that you talked about,
00:41:36but I have, you know, I take gabapentin. I take different things,
00:41:44but I take the Atopex for the potentiator and the focus,
00:41:54and I'm, and I have a really good doctor. She takes, she helps me really well,
00:42:03and, but I would like to send you my stuff and see what stage you think I'm in,
00:42:12so I know what, I mean, regardless, I'm going to do it to see if I can make myself feel better,
00:42:21regardless what stage I'm in, you know. Right. Do your doctors, are they interested in
00:42:30learning, talking with anybody or having us take a look or help evaluate you and figure out some
00:42:36ideas? Oh, yeah. I wanted to, that, my chart at the university has a share on it, but I didn't
00:42:45know whether, because you can, you only got like an hour to share it with the doctor, and I didn't
00:42:52know if it would, you could do it or not, or who answered your stuff, so I would just,
00:43:00I was going to go get the CDs and stuff and do it all that way. Yeah. You know what I'm saying,
00:43:07the, my chart, where all my stuff is, my newest stuff, all the blood work and all the MRIs and
00:43:17stuff, it's on a share thing. I can share it with any doctors I want, and I was going to do it that
00:43:31way, but I thought, well, it only gives you an hour to share to that doctor, so, which is ridiculous,
00:43:39but, so I was just going to go down there and get all the MRIs and stuff put on a disc and get,
00:43:47and I can copy all my stuff myself, all the information and send it to you, but I'll go down
00:43:55there and get all the CDs. Right. Missy, have one, anything we can do, I think it's great you're
00:44:04trying to figure some things out and learn more about it. Dr. Ibsen, do you have a question for
00:44:11her, Missy, before we turn everything over to you? Yeah, Missy, what's your pain level?
00:44:19By the end of the day, I would say it's about an eight, even on pain medicine.
00:44:28And you are on some pain medication? Yes. Okay. Yes. And I do the marijuana and,
00:44:37and yes, I am on pain medication, but I have a hard time just sitting down. Not sitting down,
00:44:46I sit down and I relax. I have to sit down, but I just, my mind is going constantly.
00:44:57And I've had a lot of trauma in the last three, four years with my stepdad, dad died, my brother
00:45:05died. I mean, it's been really bad, so. Yeah. Missy, thank you so much. Mark, since we've got
00:45:14your up, let me, let me start with something you flashed a while ago about gaslighting,
00:45:20abusive doctors, and I really appreciate some of the stuff you've been talking about
00:45:25like that. For us people, some of us, the term gaslighting is a new one,
00:45:30but it sure, sure makes sense. Maybe you want to start with that. Okay. Okay.
00:45:40Gaslighting is a term that came from a movie in the 1930s where this man tried to make his wife
00:45:48go crazy by upsetting her view of reality. And he would turn the, he would turn the gas lights
00:45:55up and down and she would complain about it. And he said, there isn't any changes.
00:45:59So he was driving her nuts. And that's where that term came from. So basically gaslighting means
00:46:08getting someone else to have you believe your reality isn't real.
00:46:15And of course that comes from not believing the patient is for in terms of physicians gaslighting
00:46:21or, and this is even more common, like, like the conversation about the neurologist saying,
00:46:31well, you know, I'm a meningitis neurologist. I don't know anything about that part of neurology.
00:46:37And well, you know, I'm a generalist, so I just have no patience for that kind of
00:46:42incompetence and unwillingness to engage with your patient. So, so when, when, when doctors say
00:46:49you shouldn't have this much pain, or I can't help you anymore. Usually surgeons do that,
00:46:54who've been extracting cash from you. So the patient is left like, well,
00:47:01I came to the doctor to get help and, and I want, and I, and I want that help. So the gaslighting
00:47:06is like, you're not having what you're having. And you know, as well as I do, that you are having
00:47:12what you're having. And it'll make you kind of nuts to have somebody tell you that your reality
00:47:17isn't real. So all of us suffer from it eventually, but there's just a lot more of
00:47:23it going on in our culture with social media, being able to magnify things like that.
00:47:29Yep. Very good. Can you fill us in? I know that you guys are making some headway on
00:47:35some advocacy and likes for you to get, give us that update as usual. And
00:47:43any, and also I found Missy's story to be
00:47:50kind of upside down. You know, I mean, five discs and this and that, and, and I don't,
00:47:58I didn't get a coherent pathologic story, if you will, as to what she has or what she should do.
00:48:06So what do you want my, yeah, well, I think
00:48:13spina bifida has a wide spectrum of how it presents. So I would suspect that spina bifida
00:48:21is a defect in the meninges that's congenital. Some children born with full spina bifida never
00:48:28walk. And the spine just sticks out of the back instead of down going in the spinal
00:48:33nerves going down the legs. And then there's a whole spectrum of spina bifida occulta,
00:48:38which means it could have been, but didn't end up being that. And so, so it seems like Missy,
00:48:44you have something kind of in the middle. I'm thinking in terms of the mechanism that,
00:48:50that there's a defect in the, in the spinal meninges and then, and some twisting with
00:48:56the scoliosis. And then all of a sudden some activation happened and that's where the disc
00:49:01problems come in. And I, and I suspect that there's a kind of a, a now open door into the
00:49:09meninges that wasn't there before. And that's why the discs are showing up late. That's kind of my
00:49:14guess on it. I think it's wise to not have a surgical procedure because it's just additional
00:49:20trauma. So and, and it sounds like stay with that, stay with your doctor because they're
00:49:29really compassionate, although they're not treating your pain enough and nobody can these
00:49:32days. So that was my opinion about, about Missy. Don't do any more damage to your spine surgeries,
00:49:40particularly injections. Of course, no one will inject you with that scar there, but
00:49:44it is a mystery to me why the discs are degenerating so late. So I, I agree with you,
00:49:49but it sounds like the autoimmune thing happened a lot later than everything else.
00:49:53So maybe that explains it. My best guess.
00:49:58Yeah. Mark, you have a, we have about two or three minutes left.
00:50:04If you have any other occasional messages here tonight.
00:50:07Well, politically, you asked me about what's happening politically. There, there's some
00:50:11good things. One of my patients in Oregon, let me know that the Oregon medical board has backed away
00:50:17from MME or MED, however you look at it, limits. And so no more limits in Oregon.
00:50:25So but that's going to take a while for people to believe them. You know, it's, it's sort of like
00:50:32rare rabbit, you know, don't throw me in that buyer patch, you know, regulatory agency that's
00:50:36been punishing people suddenly says, well, don't worry, we won't punish you now. Well, you have to
00:50:41take some time to be able to trust that. So, so that was a good news this week. There's an Illinois
00:50:48bill going on that's similar to a couple of the other bills. And it's just, it's just,
00:50:56just got tables. So I'll give you more about that if it ever passes through committee, but it's also
00:51:01about leaving patients at whatever doses they are and protecting legacy patients. So it's creeping,
00:51:08it's creeping from the West, not of the Midwest, Illinois, you know, now we got to find out if we
00:51:14can do anything in Maine. My patients in Maine are just hitting home run after home run after
00:51:23home run. And the umpires calling them foul. You know, it's like they're doing great work.
00:51:30And we haven't seen fruition yet. But I tell you, we're gonna
00:51:37Great, great to hear. Let's keep keep spreading. That's why we do this every week. A shot in the
00:51:44arm to keep going. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much. And let me just say one last thing that
00:51:51Missy and everybody also is watching this. We recommend in our tests for AA and EDS and ANA.
00:52:02Okay. Now, we're doing that mainly to have everybody start understanding what that really
00:52:09means. I don't think very few people understand what that test is. Anyway, maybe we'll talk about
00:52:17that more on the show. It's a critical test to take. And the fact that Missy, you've got a positive
00:52:23tells me an awful lot of stuff that's gone down. Okay. Thank you so much, Missy, Jamie, I'm going
00:52:29to turn it back to you, Mark. Thanks so much as usual. And we will see you guys all next week.
00:52:34Jamie, it's all back to you. I'll see you next week. Thank you, Dr. Tennant.
00:52:45Thanks, everybody that showed up. What did you say, Dr. Ibsen? I didn't catch that. I'm sorry.
00:52:50There was a lot of questions right at the end. Go ahead, Missy.
00:52:59Okay. I was going to say that to Dr. Tennant, when he was talking, or Dr. Ibsen,
00:53:09when he was talking about, I forget which one. Anyway, I didn't explain things very well, but
00:53:19this is my little cloud nine there head. But anyway. That's Gabapentin.
00:53:27That's Gabapentin. You think so? Yeah.
00:53:34But with my spina bifida, I was born with a tethered cord and split cord. Yeah. Okay.
00:53:43And that's more. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, that was all there. And when I fell,
00:53:51it just, I guess, with the scar tissue, it all caused just this. Anyway. So,
00:54:02yeah. So, I don't know how I ended up with all the disc and all that kind of stuff. I have had
00:54:07like two other falls. I fell off my desk onto a sidewalk and then another fall. But I don't know
00:54:15if that did all that. That's amazing too. That's something that has amazed Dr. Tennant is that
00:54:22when doctors will tell us that you have a ruptured disc or you have a herniated disc,
00:54:28you have a split disc, so to speak, they don't tell you why. I've never heard the reason why
00:54:34they're ruptured. Why are they slipped? Why are they herniated? And so, to have five, I would love
00:54:41to know why. And of course, those falls would be a good reason, but I'd like to have a for sure
00:54:47answer. Yeah. It's crazy. I mean, but I mean, he's not. Go ahead. Go ahead. How come your pain's not
00:54:59treated better? Well, it is, but I myself, I have to do, I mean, I have to do quite a bit.
00:55:11I mean, my husband took care of me for 20 years. He did everything basically. And now I'm having
00:55:20to, I mean, I'm not out there cutting grass or nothing, but I'm having to do a lot of stuff that
00:55:27he did. And then my son's taking care of the yard and everything else. So are you saying
00:55:34you take too much pain medication? You can't do those things?
00:55:40No, but I can't overtake my pain medication because then I would run out.
00:55:45I take it just as I'm supposed to. Right. So you're undertreated.
00:55:49Well, I wouldn't say that I get more than what is the MME or whatever the hell it used to be. I get,
00:56:00yeah, I mean, I do. That's going to go away as a distinction. So, so if you had more medications.
00:56:08Oh yeah. Yeah, I'm sure I would be able to. And it doesn't incapacitate you to take your medicines.
00:56:15No, not at all.
00:56:17You can get shit done if you take your medicines, right?
00:56:21I've taken way more than that.
00:56:24So yeah, so it might be, I think things are going to start loosening up so that it doesn't hurt to
00:56:34inquire about that in terms of getting adequate pain relief. It may not be in Florida or Alabama,
00:56:41but it looks like maybe in Oregon things might open up a little bit for people to be able to
00:56:46take what they need. Patients in Maine are allegedly eligible to take whatever dose they
00:56:56need under the Palliative Care Act, but they're not, the pharmacists aren't filling the prescriptions
00:57:06for it. So it's like, it's no protection at all. But at some point it's almost like orphan
00:57:12illnesses or orphan drug programs. Have you been tested for how you metabolize opiates?
00:57:19Yes, I metabolize them really fast.
00:57:23Yeah, there you go. Okay.
00:57:24Yeah.
00:57:25I don't understand why that test has not become universal. It's a genetic test and we are headed
00:57:32towards genetic practice of medicine. I don't understand how 25-year-old research has been
00:57:38continually rejected by so-called scientists. But when I first discovered that while I was
00:57:43treating for pain medicines, I thought, well, this is great. I'm going to get this test done.
00:57:47I'm going to protect myself and my patients by having them all have this test done.
00:57:51And it didn't provide any protection at all.
00:57:53And you can only have it one time.
00:57:56Well, it's your genetics. So you don't need to have it more than once.
00:57:59I know, but my pain doctor now didn't get it from my other doctor.
00:58:05Yeah. That's just, that's like not knowing what blood type you are. You know,
00:58:13there's no sense in getting your blood typed all the time because you're either type A or type B
00:58:17or O negative or whatever. And it really, no one would want to give you blood without testing it
00:58:25anyway. But this is, it's a one-time test unless somebody loses it. Then you got to get it done
00:58:33again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I forgot to mention the pain pump thing, Jamie.
00:58:47That's all right. I know it's kind of a funny story, but it's not really funny.
00:58:56Funny story, but I got, I had a pain pump and it, I got it in 2017. It had to be revised in 2018,
00:59:06January. I got it November, 2017, revised 2018, January. And then 2020,
00:59:16June, when my husband had his cardiac arrest and was in the hospital, I went to my
00:59:22primary and said, is this my pain pump coming out this silver thing under here?
00:59:29Because I kept telling my doctors, the surgeon and all, Hey, this thing keeps falling out of the
00:59:35pocket. And that was the whole problem before the pocket wasn't deep enough, whatever. But I think
00:59:41my body was rejecting it. And that's one thing I didn't tell you. Everybody kept saying, you look
00:59:47so sick. You look gray looking, you know, and I did, I was so sick looking, but it,
00:59:54um, they kept saying anyway, so it kept falling out of the pocket and I kept telling them, Hey,
01:00:01it keeps falling out of the pocket. Let me show you because every time I went to the doctor,
01:00:04it'd be up in the pocket. No, don't do that. Don't do that. So I wore like low rider shorts, low
01:00:12and it would rub. So I got this little pocket pest thing,
01:00:18pimple thing, and the doctor gave me this cream, antibiotic cream. And she said, just rub that on
01:00:25there. And I said, okay, well, it busted and the skin breast busted open. And so I kept wiping
01:00:36betadine on it and went to the doctor and like for like a day until I got to him. And he said,
01:00:44you need to get to your doctor and get to the hospital, call your doctor, get to the hospital
01:00:50and tell him to meet you over there because you need to have that taken out now before it gets
01:00:55up into the catheter and gives you an infection in your spine. So yeah. Yeah. And they said,
01:01:04but he said, do you want to put one in, in eight more weeks? And I said, oh no,
01:01:11this thing, I have nothing but problems with this thing. I do not want another one.
01:01:17But I did get pain, some pain relief in my lower back from it because they put that,
01:01:26not lidocaine, but you know what I'm talking about, that Ben, whatever.
01:01:30Benzocaine.
01:01:32Yes. And shoot, not, anyway. Yeah. I got some pain relief from it. Dilaudid.
01:01:46Yeah.
01:01:47Yeah. That's what I had in there.
01:01:50Yeah. It's good medicine.
01:01:52Yes. So that was bad. So I was there by myself because it was COVID time.
01:02:05So it was bad. It's sad.
01:02:09Bad and sad.
01:02:10I'm glad you made it through that, Missy. That was kind of miraculous that you did,
01:02:15especially being isolated and everything. That's just, I'm sorry you went through that. And I'm
01:02:20glad that you're still here with us. So it looked like Kenneth, did you have a question
01:02:25as well, or was that an accident?
01:02:28Oh, I was going to ask Dr. Ibsen.
01:02:31Go ahead.
01:02:31When you talk about pain being undisputed, I mean, I get some pain medication. I get
01:02:39nine milligrams of expanse in the morning and nine milligrams at night. I've been taking this
01:02:45right around two years. And I think, you know, I mean, I'm not even looking out of bed. I mean,
01:02:50with pain relief where I'm not going to slice my wrist, but I'm not able to do anything. I have
01:02:56no life. What should I be getting from pain medicine? How do we even go about talking about
01:03:05that with my doctor? First of all, I'm inmate. And I just, you know, we just did the appointment
01:03:11today and he's going to refill the cancer as it is. But we didn't talk about more. We didn't talk,
01:03:17I told him I'm in bed 18 to 20 hours a day and that if we do for another year, I won't be here.
01:03:23Yeah. And if he goes up, he won't be there. It's like, so yeah, you live in a hostile regulatory
01:03:33environment. But, you know, there is no, there is no upper limit of pain medications. I've never
01:03:39prescribed Extempo, so I don't really know the milligrams and all that for it. But, you know,
01:03:44you're getting enough pain medication when you're able to do your activities of daily living and
01:03:49you're not, and basically you measure it with function. And any doctor who practices pain
01:03:55should be having, like Dr. Tennant does, did, should be having family members saying, you know,
01:04:01Kenneth is, he's not moving. He's in bed 20 hours a day. And that's no life. So the thing to measure
01:04:13is function. And the thing to go for with your doctor when you're communicating with them,
01:04:18and I would suggest a certified letter to your doctor indicating how your function has deteriorated
01:04:25even though you didn't say this during the visit. And when you're intimidated and the doctor could
01:04:32go either way and cut you off, it's hard to really ask for what you want. But if you argue or request
01:04:41or demand the ability to function, not more medicine because they judge that as drug seeking.
01:04:51So become a function seeker, okay? Like, okay, I used to be active and now I'm not. And I want
01:04:58to be active. What do you recommend, doctor, for me to be able to get out of bed more than two hours
01:05:03a day? Because I think it could be fatal. You know, I've had patients, certain refugees that
01:05:12got their pain treated. They got up and started moving. They had a pulmonary embolism because
01:05:15the blood was clotted in their veins. So it is dangerous to be in bed. You can get pneumonia,
01:05:22you can have pulmonary emboli, stroke, etc. So it is not healthy for people to be in bed.
01:05:29I know I was before this happened. I am withering away. Yeah, yeah, I get that. Yeah.
01:05:39Well, okay.
01:05:45Let's go offline. We'll communicate about how to get a letter to your doctor that doesn't scare
01:05:50him, but that lets him know. I mean, you'd want to look at your records and see what he's charting
01:05:55on you. Because if he's asking you, how are you doing? And you're saying terribly, my pain is an
01:06:01eight or a nine. Then he's putting up with that. And so I think there's some way we could nudge him
01:06:13by asking certain questions that aren't like you're demanding more pain medication.
01:06:17You just want better function. I think it's amendable to it. I mean,
01:06:26today was the first day he met me. He doesn't have any of my records. So, you know, he had
01:06:31to make a judgment call. And it worked. I think I came across as who I am. I mean, I'm who I am.
01:06:40So, okay. So first visit, you can't tell who's a drug seeker and who's not. Okay.
01:06:47So what you want to do is really create a relationship. And we'll talk about that later
01:06:52too. But essentially, once he sees that you're consistent, once he sees that you're showing up,
01:06:58once he sees that you're asking informed questions, once he sees that you're being
01:07:03responsible with your medications, once he gets your records, which would indicate all of that,
01:07:08then there's room to ask him that question. And there's room for him to ask the question,
01:07:14well, why were you on this dose then? Why did your previous doctors not treat your pain well
01:07:18enough, et cetera, et cetera. But in Maine, it's like, it's like Mars. So that's the bad news.
01:07:26The good news is it's a small state, so you can change it.
01:07:30That's right. Thanks. I think it'll happen. Yeah.
01:07:38Thanks so much. Very good questions. And I hope you two can get together afterwards.
01:07:43We do have four people that have their hands up and we're not going to be able to get to all four
01:07:48of them, but someone said that Carson has his hand up and I don't, I don't know if you're still with
01:07:54us, Carson, but he was one of the first that I was told about. So let's see, Carson, could you
01:08:01unmute if you could, if you have a quick question we could answer. There you go. How are you doing?
01:08:07There you go. Hello, Dr. Ibsen. I'm bed, not bedridden. I can't lay down anymore because of
01:08:18my pain. I'm chair ridden and I'm concerned about the possible consequences of just that
01:08:26on top of all my other issues. Yeah. Well, motion is lotion. And, you know, essentially,
01:08:35you know, people tell you, you got to move and, and, and agony is agony. And so, and so you're in
01:08:42the rock and hard place spot because without enough pain relief, you can't, you can't get
01:08:48anybody to move. Right. You know, you need better payment management and don't we all. Yeah. I have
01:08:58no pain. I have cancer. I have spinal injuries and I'm dying terminal. Oh my God. I bet about
01:09:14once a month, unless I'm going to a doctor or something in a wheelchair. Yeah. Carson, you have
01:09:22a, you have quite the amazing story and your life has been amazing. And besides that it's,
01:09:31you are a miracle and I can't wait until your show that's coming up. So you're going to get
01:09:35to tell your whole story. I cannot wait because it's incredible. I'm so excited. So for people
01:09:44to hear not only the, the, I'm not excited for them to hear this part, the, the horrible things,
01:09:51but for them to know what you've been through and that you're still here with us somehow,
01:09:57some way you're still here. So please keep on keeping on. We probably have time for one more
01:10:03question. Gina Robertshaw. Thank you, Carson, so much. We'll be seeing you soon, buddy. I hope
01:10:08you're with us next week as well. Hope to talk with you soon. Gina, go ahead. I don't have so
01:10:17much of a question as I do to share with Dr. Ibsen and now of course with Carson and Kenneth
01:10:24hearing their stories. I don't know, Dr. Ibsen, if you're afraid or if you were aware that there
01:10:33are, is a way to get an exemption from the CDC. And this just came to my attention. I never heard
01:10:41of it until a few days ago, a woman actually got an exemption. Now what it takes is the doctor
01:10:51and it has to go to three different agencies. But if a, if a patient can get that exemption,
01:11:02then not only does the doctor get a pass on whatever they prescribe, but also the pharmacy
01:11:13has to fill it. So I just wanted to bring that to attention because I know your patient Brandy
01:11:20has been going through health and then again, hearing Carson and Kenneth. Who do I call Gina?
01:11:28Give me a number. What I was told, I don't have the number. I didn't get a chance to
01:11:32check for it yet, but it's supposedly Barry on the CDC website. Okay. Thanks.
01:11:41If I, I should hopefully get a chance to look too now, but I wanted to get that to you right
01:11:47away. Call me or call me right away. As soon as you find that out, I'll, I'll track it down.
01:11:54Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you.
01:12:03Bye everybody. Got to fly. All right. All right. Thanks so much, everybody. I appreciate you all.
01:12:09You are not alone. Please don't think you're alone. You guys have, we have each other.
01:12:15I love you. Love you guys. Love everybody. Love all of you. Love each and every one of y'all
01:12:28warriors. God saved the pain warriors. Yeah.
01:12:32Yep. Amen.
01:12:39Praise Jesus. Amen. Amen. Keep up the fight.