Hablamos con Diana Oliver sobre la lactancia y los JJOO. Además, en 'Serendipias' con Ignacio Crespo, charlamos sobre la relación entre el cine y la ciencia a raíz de la película 'Gattca'. Cerramos 'La Ventana' de la mano de Punzadas Sonoras y su club de lectura.
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00:00:00La Sociedad Española de Radiodifusión presenta
00:00:04SER
00:00:05Activa la radio
00:00:07Podcast
00:00:08Siempre
00:00:19A que voy yo y lo encuentro
00:00:20Yes, we all love
00:00:22Con Diana Oliver
00:00:24We don't live here anymore
00:00:27Teenage tribulations
00:00:31Saddle childhood scars
00:00:34And we gave hell to our parents
00:00:38We gave it to them good
00:00:41We left them with poor credit scores
00:00:45Then we left the neighborhood
00:00:48Cause we all grow up
00:00:50We all move out
00:00:52And get out of our hometowns
00:00:56We all get jobs
00:00:58Some break the law
00:00:59Some run the lights into the ground
00:01:03But I'll miss our days sneaking cigarettes
00:01:07Around the neighborhood
00:01:10Pretending that we were bad
00:01:14When really we were good
00:01:19Son las seis y treinta y tres, las cinco y treinta y tres en Canarias
00:01:53Hello, good afternoon Marta
00:01:55This is already an advance to facilitate breastfeeding
00:01:59And maternal care in such small children
00:02:02But I still understand that it is an insufficient step, right?
00:02:05Yes, of course
00:02:07I don't know if we have it more difficult today than ever
00:02:10But we have it very difficult to breastfeed
00:02:14This seems like something that would be so simple, right?
00:02:17And today it is usual that mothers
00:02:20They are caught in a lot of obstacles on the way
00:02:25Starting with the lack of references
00:02:28The lack of support there is
00:02:30Then the companies that are not all prepared for it
00:02:35Insufficient maternity leave
00:02:38A lot of measures that have not been taken yet
00:02:45And that are not being taken
00:02:47And there is a lot to do
00:02:49To make visible the importance of breastfeeding
00:02:54And facilitate that mothers can decide if they want to breastfeed or not
00:02:57And today they don't have it so easy to make that decision
00:03:01Diana, I'm Rafa, how are you?
00:03:03Hello Rafa, how are you?
00:03:04Hey, don't get so negative
00:03:05At least it is an advance in the Olympic Games
00:03:07It is the first time that this is taken into account
00:03:09I understand that there are many more advances to make
00:03:11What lines do you think we should look at?
00:03:15Where should we put the focus of attention?
00:03:18What do you think is needed?
00:03:20Well, I think that for women to really be able to make those free decisions
00:03:25It is essential that there are powerful changes
00:03:29That there are changes in maternity leave
00:03:32Much wider leave of more than six months
00:03:35That the official recommendations are
00:03:37Six months in exclusive and up to two years
00:03:40Complemented with other foods
00:03:42Or until mother and baby want
00:03:44But then the reality is that your maternity leave
00:03:47Lasts up to 16 weeks
00:03:49Then we also need a radical change in schedules
00:03:53Teleworking when possible
00:03:55Adequate spaces for breastfeeding
00:03:57In the workplaces
00:03:59And above all that there is a social support
00:04:02Towards breastfeeding
00:04:04Right now, thanks to associations and support groups
00:04:08That most are maintained thanks to voluntary mothers
00:04:14They are crucial to provide that help
00:04:17And that support to mothers
00:04:21And I think it is also important to strengthen the confidence
00:04:25Of women themselves in the capacity they have
00:04:29That many times I think that I will not be able
00:04:32Or that I do not know if I will be able
00:04:34Also ends up undermining their own confidence
00:04:40And well, it makes it difficult
00:04:43Yes, the moment to join after maternity leave
00:04:46Is a challenge for all mothers who breastfeed
00:04:49Because, of course, they ask themselves how are we going to do it
00:04:52We are going to greet Alba Padro
00:04:54Who is a co-founder of the startup Lactab
00:04:57Alba, good afternoon
00:05:01What are the doubts or the main fears
00:05:05Most common of mothers
00:05:07About returning to work after maternity leave
00:05:11I think the main thing is how the baby will do without them
00:05:14The fact that the baby, how is he going to sleep
00:05:16How is he going to relax, how is he going to eat
00:05:18Without his mother being close
00:05:20And this is a very powerful anguish
00:05:22And that we have to accompany with great affection
00:05:25Because it requires a learning time
00:05:28From the baby, from the person who will stay with this baby
00:05:31And explain those tips that will facilitate
00:05:34That this process is more or less easy
00:05:37What would make it easier
00:05:40Or what measures, what kind of support
00:05:43Would we require in mothers
00:05:46Or in companies or in society in general
00:05:49Just what Diana said
00:05:51We need decent maternity leave
00:05:53That women who want to breastfeed, who want to raise
00:05:56Can do it, that they are not afraid
00:05:59In the body of losing their job
00:06:03Or even losing a status within their company
00:06:06Because sometimes we see mothers who are relegated
00:06:09To lower positions because they have been mothers
00:06:12And now it seems that you are not so productive
00:06:14We also need a focus on a social level
00:06:16That there is a change on a social level
00:06:18Of how maternity looks and how breastfeeding is perceived
00:06:21And we also lack that part of business
00:06:23Of accompaniment, what Diana said
00:06:25Women still milk themselves in the bathrooms
00:06:28And this is something that no one would do
00:06:31To eat their sandwich in the morning in the bathroom
00:06:34It is unthinkable, women milk themselves in the bathroom
00:06:37Diana
00:06:39And in fact it is one of the reasons for abandonment of breastfeeding
00:06:43Because really when you ask mothers
00:06:46If they want to breastfeed, a large majority want to breastfeed
00:06:49Many achieve it, but then many abandon
00:06:52And I suppose that one of the reasons is also
00:06:55This incompatibility and that lack of support
00:06:59Indeed, it is one of the third most repeated causes
00:07:02Among women, the pain, the perception of lack of milk
00:07:05And the return to work, the incompatibility with work
00:07:08Or not finding information on how they should do
00:07:11That return to work, sometimes we think
00:07:14That breastfeeding is like white or gray, I can breastfeed
00:07:17And I can make artificial milk, offer artificial milk
00:07:20But there are many grays that can be explored
00:07:23So this close accompaniment will make the woman
00:07:26See all the options she has and can decide
00:07:29Alba, you mentioned that we also need a change
00:07:32At a social level, and of course, one would say
00:07:35That breastfeeding or the act of breastfeeding
00:07:38In private or sometimes in public
00:07:41It would be more normalized than it really is
00:07:44That's why we wanted to highlight, for example
00:07:47That for the first time in an Olympic Games
00:07:50There are spaces for breastfeeding
00:07:53And raising children
00:07:56Totally, it is true that little by little
00:07:59Thanks to all this work that the maternity committee
00:08:02Of the Olympic Games has done, it has been possible
00:08:05To maternate the athletes until now, it has been very difficult
00:08:08I remember four years ago, when a case with them was
00:08:11That she had to leave her baby, that she still took the breast
00:08:14With everything it means, and in the end many mothers
00:08:17At all levels, but now in Olympic sports we see it
00:08:20There is a skier who has said now that she is pregnant
00:08:23Yes, seven months
00:08:26Exactly, and that she has kept it hidden so that it does not harm her
00:08:29It's super sad that this happens and that she has to shut up
00:08:32This situation, so obviously
00:08:35That advances are taking place, but everything is so slow
00:08:38Everything is so small, so slow
00:08:41And indeed we congratulate ourselves that advances are taking place
00:08:44But I think the time has come that we want more
00:08:47Let's also say hello to Didi
00:08:50Yes, no, no
00:08:53I was saying that in the end the visibilization of breastfeeding
00:08:56Also has a very important role
00:08:59That there are no women who have to hide
00:09:02To breastfeed their babies
00:09:05Why does this still happen in Spain?
00:09:08To breastfeed very small children is very well seen
00:09:11If you have a baby, I invent it, 15 days, a month
00:09:15And you stop in a bank and breastfeed
00:09:18Surely all the looks you are going to receive will be of approval
00:09:21Of admiration, of affection
00:09:24When your baby grows a little, 5, 6 months, 7 months
00:09:27You are going to receive looks of rejection and disapproval
00:09:30And not only are you going to receive looks, but you are going to receive comments
00:09:33From anyone, anyone who passes by the street
00:09:36He will dare to tell you what you are doing
00:09:39That you have to stop breastfeeding now
00:09:43The WHO recommends that up to 2 years
00:09:46Minimum 2 years
00:09:49The recommendation is to keep breastfeeding for 2 years
00:09:52Minimum and from that point until mother and breastfeeder want
00:09:55It is a phenomenon that happens not only with breastfeeding
00:09:58The advice of anyone who crosses you on the street
00:10:01About how you carry the child, if you carry him very warm
00:10:04Not only breastfeeding
00:10:07But Alba, I don't know if there is data that can be said
00:10:11What percentage of women really bet on breastfeeding
00:10:14And hold on to that period, a year, two years
00:10:17We have figures worldwide
00:10:20That tell us that approximately during pregnancy
00:10:23When we ask women if they want to breastfeed
00:10:2694% tell us yes, they want to do it
00:10:29Evidently, as Diana said, with all the fears
00:10:32I don't know if I can, if my milk is good
00:10:35And all those things we put in the middle
00:10:39The data that is usually given in hospitals
00:10:42After having given birth, 83% of women continue with breastfeeding
00:10:45Imagine that we have lost sometimes between 10%
00:10:48A little more than 10%
00:10:51When we get to 4 months worldwide
00:10:54We find that only between 30% and 40% of women
00:10:57They come to that exclusive breastfeeding at 6 months
00:11:0030-40%, the rest are abandoned along the way
00:11:03And by the year we arrive with a very small percentage
00:11:07We are going to add to the conversation
00:11:10Silvi Riesco, who is a teacher
00:11:13Of official language schools
00:11:16Author of various books on motherhood
00:11:19And poetry like the magic of milk
00:11:22Love stories with a lot of flavor, Silvi, good afternoon
00:11:25Hello, good afternoon
00:11:28We are going to talk about the importance of breastfeeding groups
00:11:31What does a mother find in those groups?
00:11:35When a mother arrives at the breastfeeding group
00:11:38What she finds is a lot of respect
00:11:41A place where she feels with a kind look
00:11:44Where they are going to listen to her
00:11:47And where many of the stories she is going to find
00:11:50They reflect that everything is normal
00:11:53That phrase of do not worry, what is happening to you
00:11:56It has happened to me
00:11:59It is not a service of using and throwing information
00:12:03It is to find a way to raise
00:12:06Where the mother does not look like a milk provider
00:12:09There is a look towards the baby, the mother, the family
00:12:12And where they are going to solve certain problems
00:12:15But where she is also empowered
00:12:18And she becomes active
00:12:21To be able to help other mothers
00:12:24She finds solutions to these technical problems
00:12:27And that is what we are going to talk about today
00:12:31With solutions to technical or mechanical problems
00:12:34But also emotional support
00:12:37Silvia, you are an advisor in one of these groups
00:12:40How are these groups organized?
00:12:43I do not know if they arise by the initiative of the mothers
00:12:46Or is there a channelization through hospitals
00:12:49Or health centers
00:12:52Where does the initiative to set them up come from?
00:12:55As Diana said at the beginning
00:12:58Most of them work thanks to voluntary mothers
00:13:01Where some are lactation advisors
00:13:04There is always a midwife
00:13:07Sick people from the closest hospitals
00:13:10Who are also in the group
00:13:13We are in a group of lactation
00:13:16In Alcalá de Henares
00:13:19And we are organizing in Torrejón
00:13:22So that mothers can come weekly
00:13:25We focus on mother-to-mother help
00:13:28But from a more technical point of view
00:13:31From an advisor or a person in the health field
00:13:34Who can detect when something is more complicated
00:13:37A grip position
00:13:40Or a mechanical difficulty
00:13:43Such as a cramp
00:13:46And we derive these mothers with these babies
00:13:49To more specific help
00:13:52In our case
00:13:55We have been working for 15 years
00:13:58Thanks to a network
00:14:01That is created for free
00:14:04You have received that help at a given time
00:14:07And you return it
00:14:10And you become an advisor
00:14:13And you return that favor to the community
00:14:16But there is no kind of support or facilities
00:14:19The hospitals derive us
00:14:22Our phone numbers
00:14:25When they leave the hospital
00:14:28They tell us that there are many lactation groups
00:14:31In some health centers
00:14:34Some midwives have lactation support groups
00:14:37That meet with more time
00:14:40And we are associated
00:14:43With the midwife very immediately
00:14:46These lactation groups
00:14:49Are more extended in time
00:14:52So mothers can come
00:14:55With babies 5 months, 7 months, 1 year
00:14:58And they meet mothers who have been at the same time
00:15:01Not always in the same hospital
00:15:04And we guarantee this service
00:15:07And it is true that the presence of midwives
00:15:10I take this opportunity to say that there are insufficient numbers of midwives
00:15:13That provide this service
00:15:16For a relatively short time
00:15:19In some health centers
00:15:22And they are not in all
00:15:25I was going to say that 15 years
00:15:28Is a lot for a group of lactation
00:15:31Because also that volunteering
00:15:34And that strength of the mothers
00:15:37That are passing the witness
00:15:40Helping, returning
00:15:43The return that mothers make
00:15:46Of the help they have received
00:15:49And I think that besides being beautiful
00:15:52It is also very tiring
00:15:55And I understand that there has to be a relief
00:15:58In those 15 years
00:16:01How have these types of groups evolved
00:16:04How to lactate
00:16:07Where are the mothers
00:16:10How are they being renewed
00:16:13That help
00:16:16There is a generational relief problem
00:16:19Although it is true that before
00:16:22The lactation groups were the only place
00:16:25Where they found
00:16:28In addition to that support, a lot of information
00:16:31More and more
00:16:34Social networks
00:16:37The immediate
00:16:40Then there are more and more mothers
00:16:43That come to the group
00:16:46Because they need to solve a specific issue
00:16:49And it is a faster service
00:16:52So it is easy not to believe
00:16:55That feeling of belonging, of help
00:16:58Of knowledge of other mothers
00:17:01It is a problem that we have been dragging
00:17:04In recent years
00:17:07And then
00:17:10Some old mothers
00:17:13We have been for many years
00:17:16But it is very difficult for us to leave
00:17:19This work
00:17:22Because we see that in many cases
00:17:25It is also what Alba said
00:17:28That there must be immediate support
00:17:31Because if not, those mothers will leave
00:17:34As you know that this has an immediate result
00:17:37You stay
00:17:40But we do encourage
00:17:43That people join the groups
00:17:46And we can assure a relief
00:17:49I ask the three of you
00:17:52What responsibility do we have
00:17:55In this matter
00:17:58Because I do not know if until now
00:18:01It starts to talk a little more
00:18:04And now that there are more podcasts about maternity and childbirth
00:18:07But until now it is something that we have all seen
00:18:10At some point
00:18:13The act of breastfeeding
00:18:16Throughout our lives
00:18:19To our relatives, neighbors, etc.
00:18:23So Alba, for example
00:18:26I think we have to thank
00:18:29Every time the media is echoed
00:18:32Of the advances
00:18:35As you just started the program
00:18:38But also of visibilizing and denouncing
00:18:41When things are not done as they should be
00:18:44Or to promote spaces or forums
00:18:47To portray the situation right now
00:18:50Because every time it is disclosed, it is normalized
00:18:53And so we can move forward
00:18:56I also want to say
00:18:59That I think it is also very important
00:19:02The sources
00:19:05That talk about lactation
00:19:08I mean that within lactation
00:19:11I also think there are still many myths
00:19:14Sometimes information is still given
00:19:17Or very exaggerated
00:19:20Or always
00:19:23I feel that now less
00:19:26But there has been a time
00:19:29In which it is always tried to rival
00:19:32To breastfeed or not
00:19:35It always seems that there is what Alba said
00:19:38A little face A or face B
00:19:41And I think you also have to be very careful
00:19:45Because it has many nuances
00:19:48Because there are many myths around
00:19:51Because there is a lot of distorted information
00:19:54And I think you also have to talk with property
00:19:57Just as you need to train to talk about economy
00:20:00Or culture or politics
00:20:03It is also necessary to know what we are talking about
00:20:06When we talk about maternal lactation
00:20:09Diana, and what you say about groups of women
00:20:13Who bet on lactation
00:20:16There are also women who decide freely
00:20:19From the beginning of their maternity
00:20:22Who do not want to breastfeed
00:20:25Silvi, how is the relationship with women
00:20:28With mothers who take the other option
00:20:31I do not know if you try to convince them
00:20:34Or is there any risk that they are stigmatized
00:20:37No, no, no, in no case
00:20:41What we try to do is that the mother is well
00:20:44A baby needs his mother to be well
00:20:47And his mother will be well breastfeeding
00:20:50We help that mother to breastfeed
00:20:53But if that mother has a problem
00:20:56Or decides not to breastfeed
00:20:59It has been more than welcome in our group
00:21:02We are called lactation group and breeding
00:21:05And what we do is a support group
00:21:09To be able to give the necessary information and help
00:21:12That they may need at that specific moment
00:21:15But of course there is absolute respect
00:21:18And there are mothers who have come
00:21:21And they have given their opinion in the group
00:21:24And they have felt well accompanied
00:21:27In any other matter of breeding
00:21:30What we try is of course what Diana said
00:21:33Unleash myths and facilitate all possible information
00:21:36And help in case they are in doubt
00:21:39But nothing else
00:21:42If I may, I think there is an important thing
00:21:45We are often called pro-lactation groups
00:21:48We are not pro-lactation, we are pro-mother
00:21:51The important thing is to place the mother in the center
00:21:54And allow each mother with the right information
00:21:57To make the decision she needs
00:22:00And think that a mother who decides not to breastfeed
00:22:03She has to know how to manage her breast
00:22:06Before Diana talked about myths
00:22:09We believe that there is a magic pill
00:22:12That makes your milk disappear
00:22:15And we see women who decide not to breastfeed
00:22:18That they are in their full right
00:22:21That they are given a pill and no more information
00:22:24And that they find their breasts full of milk
00:22:27Painful and without knowing what to do or where to go
00:22:30We offer information to any mother
00:22:33About how to manage this lactation
00:22:36I think it is the important change of view
00:22:39Stop being pro-lactation
00:22:42We are not pro-lactation
00:22:45Everyone knows the benefits of lactation
00:22:48And how wonderful it can be
00:22:51But we are in a moment where we have to defend women's rights
00:22:54Thank you for that important note
00:22:57Thank you for being here
00:23:00Thank you
00:23:03See you next Thursday
00:23:06Let's turn on the light
00:23:21Julia Molina, good afternoon
00:23:24How are you? You look very Olympic
00:23:27Today I come Olympic to Olympic
00:23:30I've been hooked all day
00:23:33I'm with the carousel
00:23:36I've seen that you were changing depending on the medals
00:23:39You save yourself by the hour
00:23:42I remember the Olympics in China
00:23:45When we had Tokyo I don't remember
00:23:48I imagine they would interrupt us
00:23:51I was there at night
00:23:54Marta told me this time that yes
00:23:57I think it coincides with today's schedule
00:24:00The first part of today
00:24:03In four years with Los Angeles
00:24:06I will have more interruption
00:24:09Four years to know where we are
00:24:12For now I'm enjoying these Olympic Games
00:24:15I was going to tell you that yesterday
00:24:18A lot of people told us that these days
00:24:21They don't know where to hide
00:24:24We went to record a climate shelter
00:24:27A space that is more and more common in cities
00:24:30It is a free public space
00:24:33To run away from the heat
00:24:36You don't have to do anything
00:24:39You can be there
00:24:42You can go to spend the afternoon
00:24:45We visited the Circulo de Bellas Artes
00:24:48We were talking with people
00:24:51Who were enjoying a moment
00:24:54One of the project managers
00:24:57Carolina del Olmo
00:25:00It is the substitute of parks
00:25:03Where you can talk
00:25:06Without consuming anything
00:25:09The good thing is that it has to be conditioned
00:25:12It was the idea
00:25:15That when your park becomes uninhabitable
00:25:18You have an alternative
00:25:21With the heat
00:25:24These heat waves are going to be more and more frequent
00:25:27A Twitter user said
00:25:30It was like a rehearsal of what the city of the future should be
00:25:33I think it's very nice
00:25:36Let's try to adapt the spaces
00:25:39To be more comfortable
00:25:42A shelter full of plants
00:25:45I loved it
00:25:48I had seen it on social networks
00:25:51It is a privileged place
00:25:54I hope this initiative
00:25:57Is copied in small towns
00:26:00There will be no problem
00:26:03If there are more climate shelters
00:26:06We will all have a place
00:26:09Our little shelter
00:26:12I brought you this
00:26:15It is Sinova
00:26:18It is a classic of the festivals
00:26:21Tonight in the heat of the summer
00:26:24They come to play the lighthouse
00:26:27Today we do the lighthouse sport
00:26:30We asked people to take it to a more personal style
00:26:33They tell us what sport they practice
00:26:36If they practice some
00:26:39Like Rafa
00:26:42We all have a past
00:26:45I always say that what I do with my friend Rafa
00:26:48It's not exactly tennis
00:26:51We have two rackets
00:26:54We are on a tennis court
00:26:57With a more lateral look
00:27:00We are with the director of communication
00:27:03He has a very cool initiative
00:27:06It is to join the Olympic Games with the paintings
00:27:09We leave you a song
00:27:18The soundtrack of the movie
00:27:21I did not know
00:27:24It combines the refuge with the sport
00:27:27We will see what happened with Hugo González
00:27:30We hear you Julia
00:27:33See you later
00:27:57We open the fourth hour of the program
00:28:00Ignacio Crespo, good afternoon
00:28:03Good afternoon, how are you?
00:28:06Every week we are here with you
00:28:09We are here with you
00:28:12We are here with you
00:28:15We are here with you
00:28:18We are here with you
00:28:21We are here with you
00:28:24We are here with you
00:28:27We are here with you
00:28:30We are here with you
00:28:33We are here with you
00:28:36We are here with you
00:28:39We are here with you
00:28:42We are here with you
00:28:45We are here with you
00:28:48We are here with you
00:28:51We are here with you
00:28:54We are here with you
00:28:57We are here with you
00:29:00We are here with you
00:29:03We are here with you
00:29:06We are here with you
00:29:09We are here with you
00:29:12We are here with you
00:29:15We are here with you
00:29:18We are here with you
00:29:21We are here with you
00:29:24We are here with you
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00:54:57Hasta la que viene. Un beso
00:55:12La Ventana. En ser podcast
00:55:15Podcast.
00:55:16Inés García, Paula Ducai, buenas tardes, hemos hecho todos los deberes. La casa de
00:55:38azúcar de Silvina Ocampo. Vamos a ello. Leído y releído. Voy a dar tres pincelas rapidísimas
00:55:43sobre Silvina, que es que se la conoce siempre por aquellos que la rodearon. Era hermana
00:55:47de Victoria Ocampo, que fue una crítica literaria importantísima, esposa de Adolfo Bío y Cásares
00:55:51y amiga íntima de Jorge Luis Borges, dos personas que no necesitan presentación. Venía
00:55:56de la familia Ocampo, que era una de las más ricas y aristocráticas de Argentina en ese
00:55:59momento y era la hermana menor de seis hermanas. De hecho, Silvina decía que ella se sentía
00:56:04como el etcétera de la familia, que me parece brillante. Vamos a contar un poco de qué
00:56:07va el cuento por si hay algunos oyentes que no han hecho los deberes. Hoy vamos a analizar
00:56:12la historia de un matrimonio que es narrada por el marido y ella, la mujer Cristina, está
00:56:16obsesionada con que no puede vivir en una casa en la que haya vivido alguien antes.
00:56:21Pero él, como no es capaz de encontrar un sitio donde vivir, la engaña diciendo que
00:56:23ha encontrado una casa nueva y se mudan y comienzan a suceder cosas extrañas en esta
00:56:28casa de azúcar. Visitas a la casa que llaman a Cristina por el nombre de Violeta, cambios
00:56:32en la personalidad y el comportamiento de Cristina. En fin, un montón de cosas muy
00:56:35extrañas. Así que vamos ya con nuestro primer audio. A ver qué dicen los oyentes sobre
00:56:41El cuento La casa de azúcar me ha parecido impresionante. La transmutación del personaje
00:56:46de Cristina en Violeta es algo fantástico que va sucediendo de manera paulatina. El
00:56:53narrador que está dentro de la mente del propio marido va desgranando poquito a poco,
00:56:59va dando pinceladas, va dando algunas pistas de lo que puede llegar a ocurrir y de ser
00:57:06quizá el encubridor de una mentira, puesto que la casa no es pura, sino que ha sido habitada
00:57:13por otros personajes, termina siendo quizá sorprendido el mismo, puesto que su mujer
00:57:21delante de sus propios ojos termina siendo Violeta, termina siendo tomada por el espíritu
00:57:26de otros personajes, con lo cual lo que parecía una paranoia o lo que podría llegar a parecer
00:57:31simplemente un trastorno particular de su mujer. Pensar que por ciertas supersticiones
00:57:39no puede vivir en casas habitadas por otras personas, pues no puede hacer realidad, es
00:57:43decir, se convierte la afición en realidad, la superstición en realidad. Me ha parecido
00:57:48impresionante. Qué bien María José, que me lo explica. Sí, dice todo, cosas muy interesantes,
00:57:53sobre todo la transmutación, porque es un tema central en este cuento, esta transformación
00:57:58de Cristina en otra persona, y de hecho queríamos traer una frase de Cortázar que dijo sobre
00:58:02este cuento de Silvino Campo, que dijo, raramente el tema de la posición fantasmal de un vivo
00:58:08por un muerto, que creo conocer muy bien, ha sido presentado con tanta efectividad narrativa.
00:58:13Le encantaba Cortázar este cuento. Sí. Luego, también es interesante el tema de la locura
00:58:18o la paranoia que mencionaba María José, el hecho de que él sea el narrador que nos
00:58:22daba esa clave, porque esto para mí también es como el punto fundamental de este texto,
00:58:27siempre que vuelvo a él, que es que él representa lo racional y lo lógico, sin menos y sin embargo…
00:58:32Al principio, sobre todo, y lo entiendes perfectamente e incluso sufres con él, dices pobrecito
00:58:37lo que está pasando con esta mujer. Pero claro, luego el cuento, a medida que avanza
00:58:42el relato, ya no sabes en realidad en qué tipo de mundo estás y quién tiene la personalidad
00:58:50cambiada o la suplantación de personalidad, no entiendes en qué plano de la realidad estás.
00:58:58Claro, al principio es desesperante el cuento, porque lo ves desde su perspectiva, desde
00:59:03su visión, y ves como él se va desesperando con las manías de ella, con esas…
00:59:07Supersticiones. Sí, sí, sí.
00:59:10Sí, de hecho, es chulo esto de que él representa lo racional y ella, al principio, sobre todo,
00:59:14como decía Marta, es lo irracional, la superstición, la locura, la histeria, pero luego va viendo
00:59:19como una transmutación también de lo racional y lo irracional y ya no sabes muy bien en
00:59:23qué punto, porque este narrador masculino se presenta en un principio como un héroe
00:59:27de la razón. De hecho, traía una frase del cuento que dice, trate de combatir estas manías
00:59:32absurdas. O sea, que él es como que está tratando de desentrañar un misterio, decide
00:59:37mentir a su mujer sobre el origen de la casa, y al principio, de hecho, le hace gracia la
00:59:41manera de comportarse Cristina. O sea, esto de las supersticiones, dice, era mona, ¿no?
00:59:45Al principio me hacía gracia. Y Marta, una oyente, nos decía en Instagram que le parecía
00:59:50encantador hasta que empieza a interferir con las rutinas y la norma. Ya no le hace
00:59:54tanta gracia, por ejemplo, cuando no le hace esos postres que le gustan, cuando se empieza
00:59:58a alejar demasiado de lo que es la normalidad o del cuidado también con respecto al papel
01:00:03que tiene ella en el matrimonio. A ella como que le gusta menos. Y es muy chulo cómo se
01:00:08presenta a Cristina como lo otro, lo incomprensible. Parece que en el universo masculino no hay
01:00:14cabida de lo irracional y, sin embargo, es chulo también ver cómo él, a lo largo
01:00:18del cuento, va siendo comido por esa cosa irracional y lo mágico, lo grotesco, termina
01:00:23por causarle mucha perturbación. Y como decías, Marta, no sabemos muy bien quién está allá,
01:00:29en qué mundo.
01:00:30Claro, quién es el obsesivo, ¿no? Además es que, según vas leyendo, avanzando en el
01:00:34relato, te va preparando. Porque él dice cosas como, éramos tan felices que daba miedo,
01:00:39¿no? Entonces dices, algo va a pasar. ¿En qué momento va a haber ese giro? Y sí, lo
01:00:44hay.
01:00:45Sí, total. Pues ahora queríamos comentar con Rosario, una oyente, todas estas cosas.
01:00:50Ah, pues la tenemos al teléfono. Rosario, buenas tardes.
01:00:52Hola, buenas tardes. Qué gusto.
01:00:55Igualmente. ¿Qué te ha parecido La casa de azúcar?
01:00:59Bueno me ha encantado. Pero bueno, todas las lecturas que estoy haciendo con vosotros,
01:01:03la verdad es que están muy bien elegidas y me están gustando muchísimo.
01:01:06Qué bien, qué maravilla.
01:01:08Yo quizá destacaría si un poco me parece que ahí mi aportación puede ser en la línea
01:01:13de lo que estabais diciendo, de lo mágico, de lo grotesco, introduciendo en el elemento
01:01:19de lo siniestro, ¿no? Ese elemento que se va construyendo a lo largo del relato, pues
01:01:25con elementos como la repetición del nombre de Violeta y que se va construyendo esa especie
01:01:31como de fantasma, ¿no?
01:01:33El vestido verde que aparece, ¿no?
01:01:36Eso sí. Y eso sería un poco cómo se va construyendo esa especie de enigma, de misterio,
01:01:47de algo encantado, de algo que además está definido con adjetivos, embrujada, aterradora,
01:01:55que se van repitiendo y al final crean en el lector esa sensación de que, bueno, lo
01:02:00que decíais antes, va a pasar algo y además algo que no es bueno, ¿no?
01:02:05Sí, recuerda un poco a Edgar Allan Poe en ese sentido, ¿no? Además con todo el tema
01:02:09de la casa embrujada.
01:02:10¿Dentro de qué género estaría este relato?
01:02:13Pues que Silvina Ocampo es una escritora un poco... Es difícil clasificarlo, es sin
01:02:17duda un cuento fantástico, pero yo más allá de eso no estoy muy segura. Es verdad que
01:02:24Bío y Casares y Silvina Ocampo y Borges hicieron una clasificación como de cosas que aparecían
01:02:29en cuentos fantásticos y la metamorfosis es uno de esos elementos. Entonces este sería
01:02:33como un cuento sobre un tipo de metamorfosis, podríamos decir, sí.
01:02:37Sí, porque antes comentaba...
01:02:39Hombre, ella tampoco puede alejarse de sus orígenes, ¿no? De los orígenes de lo mágico,
01:02:46del realismo mágico, ¿no? Y entonces hay elementos eso que ella conoce por las lecturas
01:02:52que ha tenido. Es una mujer fascinante y entonces eso ella lo vuelca en la literatura latinoamericana,
01:03:01lo vuelca en sus textos, ¿no?
01:03:03Hablaba Paula de Itarralampo...
01:03:04Hay uno que tiene que ser...
01:03:05Perdón, sigue, sigue.
01:03:06No, que hay uno que se llama La Soa, también, que es un acuertito también, que eso es cómo
01:03:14toma cuerpo, cómo se personaliza una soa para convertirse al final en una serpiente
01:03:19que mata al niño, ¿no? O sea, lo infantil también aparece aquí, ¿no? La visión de...
01:03:24Bueno, desde el título, La Casa de Azúcar, ¿no?
01:03:28Parece un cuento infantil.
01:03:30Hablaba Paula de Itarralampo y yo justo con La Casa de Azúcar, incluso se menciona la
01:03:35brujería, me parece todo un guiño un poco a Hansel y Gretel en un primer momento. Y
01:03:40yo decía, ¿esto por dónde va a ir? Antes de descubrir que realmente era una cantante,
01:03:42digo, esto va a ser una bruja que vivía aquí y a ver cómo acaba esto.
01:03:46Sí, está bien rastrear siempre los elementos.
01:03:49Nos lleva a lo infantil, ¿no? Nos lleva ahí un poco siempre a un mundo ahí de infancia,
01:03:54de miedos, de brujas.
01:03:56Y para que te confíes, porque luego...
01:03:58Claro, luego te da el...
01:04:00Luego ella empieza a convertirse en Violeta, a hacer cosas extrañas, el marido se empieza
01:04:05a obsesionar, la empieza a seguir.
01:04:07Sí, nos señalabas también, recuerdo, Rosario, en tu audio que te llamaba la atención la
01:04:12rima de Lope de Vega que aparece, que es un detalle muy bien visto porque efectivamente
01:04:17sale Lope de Vega en el cuento cuando Campo dice ir y quedar y con quedar partirse, que
01:04:22es una cosa que dice Cristina en una de estas salidas extrañas que tiene. Y efectivamente
01:04:25Lope de Vega tiene un poema que dice ir y quedarse, ir con alma ajena, ojo a esto,
01:04:31ir con la dulce voz de una sirena y no poder del árbol desasirse, que me parece que hay
01:04:35mucho subtexto que también los lectores pueden desenterrar. Esto del alma ajena nos pega
01:04:38muy bien en un relato en el que hay un alma que se está colando en el cuerpo de otra
01:04:42persona. Y hay un montón de referencias de ese estilo, ¿no? Y luego el tema de la metamorfosis.
01:04:47Sí, bueno, Silvina era una escritora de poesía, era una poeta. Escribió muchos cuentos pero
01:04:52escribió también mucha poesía, entonces ella tenía lecturas, ¿no?
01:04:56Sí, sí, sí, era una persona súper, súper leída. Y es curioso que su poesía, yo no
01:05:00he leído tanto, no sé si Rosario tú la conoces más, pero se dice que su poesía era más,
01:05:04bueno, que se atañía más a las normas literarias y que eso en sus cuentos en los que se atrevía
01:05:09un poco a romper y a sorprender un poco más al lector.
01:05:13Sí, parecía que seguía más los cauces de la métrica y de un sistema más clásico
01:05:21de escritura.
01:05:22Así que más deberes para los oyentes, deberes poéticos, lean la poesía de Silvina Ocampo.
01:05:26Y yo creo que podemos recomendar el libro sobre Silvina Ocampo por si alguien quiere
01:05:30conocerla bien.
01:05:31Hay una biografía maravillosa de Mariana Enríquez que se llama La hermana menor, que
01:05:34es un libro que recomendamos muchísimo porque ahí está toda la vida de Silvina Ocampo
01:05:37que fue una mujer muy peculiar, muy, muy peculiar.
01:05:40Rosario, ¿tú has participado en más clubes de lectura?
01:05:45No, la verdad es que no.
01:05:47Yo doy clase de lengua de literatura, pero no he participado, pero estoy encantada.
01:05:53Rosario, sí que has estado participando en este, sí que ha sido habitual.
01:05:57Sí, sí, sí.
01:05:58¿Cada semana?
01:05:59Sí, en este sí es que me llamó la atención el poderlo hacer tan dosificado y que sean
01:06:05cuentos, que sean un formato corto y bueno, me gusta mucho.
01:06:09Gracias por participar en este experimento.
01:06:12Un besazo, Rosario.
01:06:14Un abrazo, adiós.
01:06:16Bueno, recogiendo un poco el tema de la metamorfosis, que me parece una cosa muy interesante, hay
01:06:19que señalar que también Borges trabajó mucho este tipo de elemento en las obras.
01:06:23De hecho, Silvina Ocampo tiene cuentos en los que los protagonistas se convierten en
01:06:26animales, en plantas, o sea, es una gran narradora de lo híbrido.
01:06:30Pero bueno, más allá de estos elementos fantásticos.
01:06:32Sí, porque comentabas antes, Marta, de cuánto, o sea, qué género, ¿no?
01:06:35Si podemos decir que es sobrenatural o fantástico.
01:06:38A mí me llama mucho la atención que si lo bajamos un poco a tierra y le quitamos
01:06:41esa parte sobrenatural, podríamos decir que es una mujer transformándose.
01:06:44O sea, porque yo pensaba, leyéndolo, que normalmente entendemos la identidad como algo
01:06:48muy cerrado, como que somos la misma persona desde que nacemos hasta que morimos.
01:06:52Y en realidad no es así, ¿no?
01:06:53Sino que es mucho más fluida y caben muchas más modificaciones.
01:06:57Y yo pensaba, si le quitamos esa parte de que se está convirtiendo en otra persona,
01:07:00simplemente podemos ver una mujer siendo libre, porque al final ella se marcha, ¿no?
01:07:05Esto es spoiler del cuento, perdón.
01:07:06Bueno, es que una de las cosas que perturban del cuento es que hay una indefinición de
01:07:11lo que realmente está pasando, ¿no?
01:07:13Entonces, como que todas las interpretaciones, pues, caben.
01:07:17Y efectivamente, ¿sabes?
01:07:18Pues esta es una más.
01:07:19A mí también me pasaba de, espérate, es que me está diciendo algo más, ¿no?
01:07:23De lo que parece.
01:07:24Sí.
01:07:25Y de hecho, Lola, nuestra querida Lola, que hablamos con ella la semana pasada, nos mandaba
01:07:29un comentario por Instagram, súper chulo, porque ella siempre participa de manera brillante,
01:07:33la verdad.
01:07:34Y era que ha entendido que Cristina enloquece como respuesta a la mentira y al control que
01:07:38su marido ejerce sobre ella, sobre todo en esta parte del principio donde él es esta
01:07:42entidad más racional que parece que la tiene que atrapar.
01:07:45Y hace una lectura, Lola, muy sociológica y muy interesante del cuento.
01:07:49Y se preguntaba, ¿sería Violeta también una mujer a la que terminaron enviando al
01:07:53frenopático, directa o indirectamente?
01:07:55Si Cristina es, en el momento de la narración, una especie de reencarnación de Violeta,
01:08:00¿no acabará ella en el manicomio?
01:08:02O sea, que lo plantea de un punto de vista más sociológico, de estas mujeres que provocaban
01:08:06celos en el vecindario, que también tenemos todas estas visitas a la casa, que cantan.
01:08:10Además está esta frase que nos encanta, de canta con una voz que no es mía.
01:08:13A mí me ponen los pelos de punta esta frase.
01:08:15Porque además ella se va dando cuenta de lo que está pasando y como que sí, es perturbador.
01:08:19Se viste como quiere, de repente tiene el vestido este de terciopelo que es escotado,
01:08:23que nos lo dicen, parece que de manera...
01:08:26Los amantes, eso de ir a sitios que antes no le gustaban.
01:08:30Ella se da cuenta, pero ella no pide ayuda.
01:08:33No, no, porque como que le da la bienvenida.
01:08:35Claro, lo recibe, efectivamente.
01:08:37Y sí, cuando el marido le pregunta, bueno, ¿qué haces por aquí sola?
01:08:41Y ella le diga algo así como, ¿y por qué no voy a poder estar por aquí?
01:08:45Entonces el paranoico empieza a ser él, porque dice, ¿qué está pasando aquí?
01:08:48Empieza a seguirla.
01:08:50Claro, Lola planteaba justamente que esa locura hay alguien que la construye, que la despliega
01:08:54y que puede ser el marido sobre ella.
01:08:56Dice, para ser encerrada en tanto que loca, primero tiene que desplegarse la construcción de loca.
01:09:01O sea que parece que entre Cristina y su marido hay una escisión
01:09:04y esto tiene consecuencias que vamos a seguir tratando.
01:09:07En un audio que nos ha mandado Juan Antonio.
01:09:13La casa de azúcar es un relato muy anguloso en el que, desde mi opinión,
01:09:18se abarcan dos temas principales, la identidad y la mentira.
01:09:22Primero, el concepto de identidad y cómo la vida nos va haciendo evolucionar.
01:09:27En el caso de Cristina para bien, ya que dice que se está convirtiendo en una persona más feliz,
01:09:32aunque su marido perciba lo contrario, porque no le prepara postres.
01:09:37Y surge una pregunta, ¿seguimos siendo nosotros mismos tras las decisiones que vamos tomando en nuestras vidas?
01:09:43Me recuerda a la paradoja del barco de Teseo.
01:09:46Y en el caso de vivir en pareja o en familia, ¿cómo acepta esta evolución personal a los demás?
01:09:52¿Y cómo nos afecta la del amado?
01:09:54Es aquí el reto de la pareja y el de crear un camino juntos.
01:09:58Bueno, ha recogido todo lo que estábamos diciendo, todas las cosas.
01:10:02El tema de la identidad.
01:10:03Y por concluir un poco, y para también animar a los oyentes a que sigan investigando sobre Silvina Compoy leyéndolas,
01:10:08queríamos contar que muchas veces queremos rescatar a estas autoras que han quedado un poco en el olvido,
01:10:13pero Mariana Enríquez, en este libro que hemos recomendado, que es La hermana menor, postula una cosa muy brillante,
01:10:18que es que se piensa que Silvina Ocampo quedó opacada por todas estas grandes figuras literarias que tuvo a su alrededor,
01:10:24pero Mariana Enríquez dice que, y cito, quienes la admiran fervorosamente, a Silvina, decretan que fue ella quien eligió ese segundo plano.
01:10:32Dicen que desde allí podría controlar mejor aquello que deseaba controlar,
01:10:35que nunca le interesó la vida pública, sino más bien tener una vida privada más libre y lo menos escrutada posible.
01:10:41O sea, que Silvina Ocampo fue una persona que, según Mariana Enríquez, inventó su propio misterio,
01:10:45porque quería simplemente ser más libre en su vida privada, y no siempre... Bueno, que me parece interesante, ¿no?
01:10:50Y eso, recomendamos mucho La hermana menor, que la gente lo lea, y nos volvemos a escuchar en el siguiente...
01:10:57El próximo jueves, que es La catedral de De Carver.
01:11:01De Carver, que es uno de los cuentos más famosos, yo creo, de la historia de la literatura, que seguro que muchos oyentes ya han leído,
01:11:07y De Carver, que es uno de estos grandes narradores norteamericanos, de los suburbios, de las grandes ciudades,
01:11:13de lo que sucede en los matrimonios, en las familias, de todo lo que está por debajo,
01:11:16un poco quizás en la línea del cuento que vimos el primero, el de Catherine Mansfield, de Felicidad de Aire.
01:11:20Siempre traemos matrimonios, me estoy dando cuenta de que hemos tenido tres matrimonios y un aborto.
01:11:25No sé qué está pasando aquí.
01:11:27Les recordamos a los oyentes que lo pueden encontrar, todos los relatos, temporalmente en PDF en nuestra página web.
01:11:35Si buscan Club de Lectura, punzadas la ventana, lo van a encontrar.
01:11:38Carver, Catedral, el próximo jueves 8 de agosto.
01:11:42Sí, ahí nos vemos.
01:11:43Pues muchas gracias, chicas.
01:11:44Gracias.
01:11:45Gracias, David.
01:11:46Gracias.
01:11:47Hasta mañana.
01:11:48Cerramos la ventana, volvemos a abrirla, pues según nos dejan los Juegos Olímpicos.
01:11:52Disfruten de la radio, un beso.
01:12:04O tu plataforma de audio favorita.