"Fake-Electors Scheme" and Decertification Efforts: Marc Elias Warns of GOP Tactics for 2024
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00:00now for what is to come in November. Joining us now is Mark Elias, who specializes in election
00:05litigation. He's the founder of Democracy Docket. Mr. Elias, thank you very much for joining us
00:09tonight. I appreciate you being here. Thank you for having me.
00:13So we've been talking about this on and off for months. We've been talking about it pretty
00:17intensively for the past few weeks. Let me just ask you as an expert, if not the expert in this
00:23field, am I getting any of this wrong or seeing any of this the wrong way around, or am I presenting
00:28this in a way that you think basically captures the facts? I think you captured it entirely
00:33correctly. I mean, the fact is that when we talk about who won an election, we're really talking
00:39about two things. We're talking about the unofficial results that people get on election
00:43night, which is what AP reports, what NBC and MSNBC use to call elections on election night.
00:50But then we are really talking about the certified results. And these are the results
00:55that are first approved at the polling place and then at the county. And as you point out,
01:00then at the state and then ultimately in presidential elections that choose the
01:05electors. And then those certificates from the governor go to the go to the Congress.
01:10And Rachel, if you think of it this way, January 6th was the culmination of a certification dispute,
01:15which, as you point out, began, among other places in Michigan, at the county level.
01:20And when Republicans couldn't achieve what they wanted to at the county level,
01:23they went to the state level. When they couldn't achieve that, they launched a fake
01:26electors scheme, which was just another way of undermining accurate certification of elections.
01:30When they couldn't do that, they launched a series of frivolous lawsuits. And finally,
01:36they attempted to block what on January 6th? The certification of the election.
01:41So this has been on their radar screen for some time, and it will be on their radar screen for
01:45sure in 2024. We have seen them not just planning to do this for the 2024 election, but trying it
01:51out in multiple jurisdictions. You, among others, have pointed out that this is a tactic at the
01:57county elections board level that was essentially unheard of before 2020. But now it has happened
02:03literally dozens of times, sometimes in very off the radar, like municipal elections,
02:07sometimes in primary, sometimes in general elections. There hasn't yet been another
02:11presidential election during which they've tried it. But what have you learned about
02:16how this process works, how these essentially concocted controversies
02:23can be resolved when they do this stuff at the county level?
02:27Yeah, I mean, look, I have done more recounts and election post-election litigation than any
02:33other person ever. And I've never I had never seen it before 2020. In 2020,
02:38I represented President Biden in the DNC in 60 plus cases. We saw it in Michigan. But before
02:42that, I had done recounts in for Al Franken in Minnesota for various Senate campaigns,
02:47statewide campaigns. And the idea of tinkering with the certification at the local level was
02:54just out of bounds. I mean, that is part of the pageantry of democracy. It is what makes us
02:59great as a country that after a hard-fought election, the election officials celebrate
03:03the results by certifying these election results. And whatever takes place in court after that
03:09takes place after after that in court. But, you know, Rachel, we saw in 2022 that they refused
03:15to certify the elections in Cochise County, Arizona, and in several places in Pennsylvania.
03:20I sued them. We won. The folks in Cochise County subsequently got indicted for it.
03:25And you might think that would serve as a deterrent for 2024. But, you know, as Donald
03:29Trump proved, the loyalty to his crimes and misdeeds is stronger than people's
03:34instinct for self-preservation. Briefly, Mark, what can people
03:38who are concerned about this do to try to make sure it doesn't happen?
03:42Yeah, so we all play a role. So, first of all, you know, thank you for calling this out. Lawyers,
03:45we go to court, but, you know, making this public is the big part of the battle. And I'd ask every
03:50person listening to this to speak out on this. You know, don't stay silent. You know, you all
03:56have a town square. You don't all have millions of viewers like Rachel Maddow, but each and every
04:00one of you can post on social media. You can attend these canvas board meetings. You can file
04:05comments in Georgia before the state election board. In your own counties, you can know who
04:10is on these boards and you can attend their meetings. Every citizen has a role to play
04:14here. And if we all do that, I am confident that we will defeat these efforts and Kamala Harris
04:20will be sworn in as the next president of the United States. Mark Elias, lawyer specializing
04:25in election litigation, the founder of Democracy Ducat. Mark, I have a feeling this is the start
04:29of several conversations we're going to have on this. Thank you so much for your time tonight.
04:33Keep us surprised. Okay.