Panorama 2020 E20
Panorama 2020 E20
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CreativityTranscript
00:00Tonight on Panorama, shocking new evidence about a national scandal.
00:07I've never heard of anything like it at all.
00:10It's a quite extraordinary story.
00:13We reveal how the Post Office ruined hundreds of lives.
00:18They've been lying, not just to this postmaster, to everybody.
00:22They've been lying from day one.
00:24The Post Office knew its computer system could make money go missing,
00:29but they accused staff of stealing anyway.
00:32It's chilling. I mean, my blood ran cold.
00:35And postmasters were jailed because bosses kept the truth from coming out.
00:40You can't create this kind of injustice on people
00:44and then just walk away with it, it's got free.
00:59For ten years, I've been investigating a scandal at one of our most loved institutions.
01:13It may turn out to be one of the biggest miscarriages of justice in British history.
01:19The Post Office prosecuted hundreds of postmasters over missing money.
01:25Postmasters like Janet Skinner.
01:31So, yeah, this little blue bit, yeah, it's a police station.
01:34It's still a police station? Yeah.
01:38Yeah, the government writes and then they just repeatedly ask you the same questions.
01:43Did you steal the money? Have you taken the money?
01:47Have you borrowed the money? Have you lent the money to somebody?
01:51The evidence against the postmasters came from the Post Office's computer system, Horizon.
02:01In 2006, it showed £21,000 missing from Janet's till.
02:09She panicked and hid the shortfall in her accounts
02:12while she tried to work out what had happened.
02:16I knew that I hadn't done anything wrong.
02:19And I just thought, it's a problem, it'll come back.
02:24So what happened next week?
02:26It just doubled.
02:27And then it just got beyond the point where it was like I'd just buried my head in the sand.
02:35And I didn't know what to do, to be honest.
02:42When auditors arrived at Janet's branch, Horizon showed £59,000 was missing.
02:49The Post Office charged her with theft and false accounting.
02:53Then they offered her lawyer a deal.
02:58He said, if you will accept the guilty plea for false accounting,
03:04they'll drop the theft charge.
03:09And then I said, well, what does that mean?
03:12So he said, well, it means you probably were looking at a custodial sentence.
03:18So I said, well, I'll do that then, you know, cos I didn't want to go to jail.
03:28But Janet did go to jail.
03:31She got a nine-month sentence.
03:35On her first night inside, she was allowed to call home.
03:40I remember from the kids...
03:43..that was a lot.
03:47What were they saying to you?
03:49Just that they love me.
03:53And I was just telling them that I love them, that I'm going to miss them.
03:59She said, I'll come and see you. I said, no, you won't.
04:02She said, you're not coming to see me.
04:04I said, I don't want my kids growing up without a memory of me.
04:13Postmasters were told they had total control of their Horizon accounts.
04:19So when money went missing, the post office said it was their fault.
04:25But what if the computer made mistakes?
04:29There's a very early one of me, 2000, even a lot younger in those days.
04:34I think that was the first time we ever had anything in print,
04:37which was December 2003.
04:392003, wow. Yeah.
04:43Former postmaster Alan Bates has spent 20 years
04:47trying to prove Horizon made money vanish from his post office.
04:52There's a lovely quote from you here.
04:54I'm going to fight this for as long as it takes
04:57because of the grave injustice I feel has been done to myself
05:01and the people of Craggydon in the way my contract was terminated.
05:04Very true. Fight this for as long as it takes, Alan.
05:07Yeah, I unfortunately seem to be...
05:09Well, I'm living up to my word.
05:11Well, yeah. Two decades on.
05:16Alan was sacked after refusing to pay back money Horizon said was missing.
05:23He was one of the first to argue that computer bugs were responsible.
05:28But the post office wouldn't listen.
05:31I've always felt that they've been trying to keep it covered up,
05:34the whole thing covered up, about the condition of the system.
05:38How many people are sitting on the truth of what they knew at the time?
05:43It has to come out, Nick.
05:45There are so many people who have suffered over the years with all of this.
05:49And there are probably so many more out there that we haven't heard from yet.
05:56More postmasters joined Alan's campaign.
06:02I've met dozens of them over the years.
06:06Like Sue Knight, who was a respected member of her church and local community.
06:12She lost her home.
06:14The post office had no idea what they'd done.
06:18No idea.
06:21Or Noel Thomas. He was accused of stealing £50,000.
06:27I waited for a suspended sentence and he said, take him down.
06:31I spent my 60th birthday in prison.
06:36Or Jo Hamilton, whose customers raised thousands
06:39to pay off the money she was accused of stealing.
06:44We're not going to stop until they actually address what they've done
06:48and be helped to account for what they've done.
06:52557 postmasters took the post office to court.
06:59Some had been jailed and some had been forced to pay back large sums of money
07:03the computer said was missing.
07:06Horizon was put on trial.
07:08And the postmasters were proved right.
07:14Bugs in the computer said they'd been caught.
07:18Bugs in the computer system could make it look like money had disappeared.
07:24The judge has found that on numerous occasions over the years,
07:28bugs, errors and defects in the Horizon system
07:31caused discrepancies in postmasters' branch accounts.
07:39The judge criticised the post office for insisting Horizon was robust
07:43when the evidence proved it wasn't.
07:45This approach by the post office has amounted, in reality,
07:49to bare assertions and denials that ignore what has actually occurred.
07:55It amounts to the 21st century equivalent
07:58of maintaining that the earth is flat.
08:02The judge found that there was an excessive culture of secrecy
08:06within post office,
08:08and that definitely reflected our experience of dealing with them.
08:12It was very difficult to get things out.
08:14They held all the cards,
08:16and they weren't exactly putting them down on the table face up.
08:23The post office has agreed to pay £58m in compensation and legal fees.
08:29But that may just be the start.
08:32The Court of Appeal will now review the convictions of 47 postmasters,
08:36including all the convicted postmasters featured in this press release.
08:40The post office is also assessing 900 prosecutions
08:44that may involve Horizon evidence.
08:47This is potentially a huge miscarriage of justice,
08:50and I support fully the demands of people who are affected by it to get answers.
08:56And now, finally, I hope we're on the verge of getting justice and closure
09:01for the people affected by this miscarriage of justice.
09:11The post office says the court found the risk of bugs affecting balances
09:15in older versions of Horizon was greater than post office believed.
09:20It does not mean every shortfall was caused by a bug,
09:23and each case would need to be determined on the full evidence.
09:27The post office should have done more to investigate the risk
09:31and provide more help to postmasters.
09:34That is something we deeply regret.
09:41The Hyde Court case has given me the chance to finally get to the truth.
09:47I got access to dozens of internal documents.
09:52They show problems with Horizon coming up time and time again.
09:59These documents show the post office knew there were serious problems with Horizon.
10:04So when they said the system was robust, that wasn't true.
10:07People's lives have been destroyed because of that.
10:12They show error after error, logged by the IT firm running the system.
10:19Some bugs made it look as if money had gone missing.
10:23These messages show the post office, known as Pol, was told.
10:28But they carried on prosecuting postmasters anyway.
10:33There were bugs that affected Horizon before Janet Skinner was accused of stealing.
10:39We've uncovered further stuff that demonstrates the post office knew about bugs in Horizon
10:46well before they prosecuted you.
10:49We should have been made aware of the system failings that was going on.
10:54They just didn't. They didn't tell anybody.
10:56Do you think the department, the prosecutors,
10:59were aware that Horizon had bugs and faults?
11:02Yes. Yes, they were.
11:04And they just obviously just ignored it.
11:13The lawyer who advised Janet to plead guilty is now a Labour MP.
11:18He says they should never have been put in that position by the post office.
11:23He says they should never have been put in that position by the post office.
11:30That realisation that Janet Skinner perhaps shouldn't have been
11:33in the situation that she was in, how did you react personally?
11:37Well, it's chilling. I mean, my blood ran cold.
11:39We now know she should never have been prosecuted in the first place.
11:44She went to prison, her life was absolutely categorically ruined,
11:48there was problems that they knew about then,
11:51they were not disclosing any of that at the time,
11:54and we now know, we certainly suspect strongly,
11:58that there was corporate cover-up.
12:02This is the woman who ran the post office for almost a decade.
12:09Paula Vennells always insisted she wanted to get to the truth about Horizon.
12:16We are a business that does genuinely care about the people that work for us
12:20and if there had been any miscarriages of justice,
12:23it would have been really important to me and the post office
12:26that we actually surfaced those.
12:29Politicians have tried to hold her to account.
12:33I went along to the post office headquarters
12:39and met Paula Vennells, the chief executive of the post office,
12:43and we said, we can't go on like this, this has got to be sorted out,
12:48there's a real problem here.
12:50The response we got was actually very encouraging.
12:53They said, we'll do this properly, we'll get to the bottom of it.
12:59In 2012, the post office appointed independent investigators
13:04called Second Sight to look at the postmaster's complaints about Horizon.
13:08They were promised full cooperation.
13:12I made it completely clear to the chairman and chief exec
13:16that this was not an investigation I was remotely interested in carrying out
13:22unless they were committed to the search for the truth.
13:26That's the only way we operate.
13:28Well, there was the famous phrase, seek the truth at all costs.
13:35But the post office's independent investigators
13:38soon suspected there was a problem with the convictions.
13:42Out of all of the cases that we looked at,
13:45I don't think we ever came across a single example
13:48where the proceeds of crime, so to speak,
13:52had ever been identified in any form of satisfactory way.
13:57I might have expected to hear about an expensive holiday
14:02or a flash car or something like that.
14:06We saw nothing to indicate that if money had been stolen,
14:10that it had been used to benefit the sub-postmaster
14:13or their immediate family.
14:18Second Sight were initially given access to internal legal files,
14:22but then the post office stopped handing them over.
14:26The investigators told MPs.
14:29We, unsurprisingly, asked for full access to those legal files.
14:33Paula, why don't you give those files over?
14:35What's the problem?
14:37So, I think the point I want to pick up first, if I may...
14:40No, just answer my question first.
14:42Why won't you give Ian Henderson those files? Why?
14:45As far as I'm aware, Mr Sahawi,
14:47we have shared whatever information was appropriate on every single...
14:50That's not what Ian Henderson's saying.
14:53Most of the legal files were never released.
14:56The investigators, paid by the post office,
14:59think there's been a cover-up.
15:02If there was a decision taken
15:04to deliberately try and put obstacles in the way of your investigation,
15:09why?
15:11Well, I think that's pretty extremely obvious.
15:14It's the consequences of the fact that,
15:19It's the consequences of a loss of confidence
15:25in the underlying core system, Horizon.
15:28So, it is existential for the post office
15:32to maintain the position
15:36that Horizon is completely reliable
15:39and the people and the processes surrounding Horizon
15:44are completely reliable.
15:47The post office says it co-operated with Second Sight as appropriate.
15:52Second Sight were not experts in criminal law
15:56and it was therefore not appropriate
15:58for them to have access to the privileged prosecution files.
16:02It says it's seen no evidence of a cover-up.
16:07Those legal files are critical
16:10to the first case I ever encountered in this scandal.
16:14It's the story of a postmaster called Seema Misra.
16:19There's no evidence that I've taken any money
16:23and then the jury came back with the word guilty.
16:30All I had in front of me was a letter
16:34all I had in front of me, my husband, my children
16:37and I was pregnant that time.
16:44Seema was jailed for stealing £74,000
16:48after she covered up the fact cash was missing.
16:52Key evidence came from the Horizon computer system.
16:56In the summing up, the judge said there's no direct evidence of theft.
17:00You have to infer it.
17:02How can somebody listening to it properly
17:05come back with the word guilty?
17:08So that was...
17:10It was shocking.
17:12And then you then had to go to prison.
17:14Yeah. I asked one of the officers if I can borrow his jacket
17:18so they can cover my handcuffs.
17:21I didn't want anybody to see like that.
17:25Seema might not have been convicted of theft
17:28had her trial heard the truth about Horizon.
17:32We found crucial evidence in her legal file
17:35that was never seen by the jury.
17:38These documents are shocking.
17:40They show post office prosecutors
17:42refusing to hand over information
17:44which could have helped Seema prove her innocence.
17:48This is just one example.
17:51This is just one example.
17:53An email from the post office security team
17:56to the criminal law team.
17:59It's about a bug in Horizon that makes money simply disappear.
18:05The security team are worried
18:07it may have repercussions in future prosecution cases.
18:12The attachment says that any branch encountering the problem
18:15will have corrupted accounts.
18:17In one case, more than £30,000 went missing.
18:21In another, almost £5,000.
18:25The document was printed out by the post office legal department
18:28just three days before Seema Misra's trial.
18:31But it was never disclosed to her defence.
18:36We showed our evidence to a leading expert on criminal law.
18:41What do you think of the behaviour
18:43of the post office throughout the Misra trial?
18:45It seems to me, and it goes to the heart of this,
18:48that quite clearly the post office had material
18:52which they should have disclosed, which they did not.
18:56And in my view, resulted in the wrongful conviction of Misra.
19:03There should be a thorough examination of all the evidence
19:07in respect of any person who might have committed misconduct
19:12in the course of these prosecutions by the post office.
19:21The post office says it has always accepted its legal obligations
19:25and has taken advice throughout.
19:29It's conducting a further review about disclosure.
19:43It wasn't just computer bugs that the post office was keeping to itself.
19:49There was another way money could disappear from the Horizon system.
19:54In 2015, we discovered Postmasters' accounts
19:57could be changed without them knowing.
20:01We made a panorama which uncovered vital new evidence
20:04but it was bitterly contested by the post office.
20:08The Horizon computer system is run from this office in Bracknell by Fujitsu.
20:15A whistleblower told us that financial records
20:18were sometimes changed remotely by Fujitsu staff.
20:22He knew because he was one of them.
20:29We went in through the back door and made changes.
20:32Sometimes you'd be putting several lines of code in at a time.
20:36If we hadn't done that, then the counters would have stopped working.
20:46It was an explosive revelation.
20:52If the accounts could be altered remotely,
20:55then missing money could be down to human error.
20:58Or worse still, theft by those with secret access to the system.
21:04The post office said we were wrong.
21:07Senior managers flatly denied remote access was possible
21:10without the Postmaster knowing.
21:14One meeting was recorded.
21:18It wasn't for broadcast, so we've revoiced their words.
21:22Can the system be accessed remotely and without anybody's knowledge
21:25in terms of it doesn't leave a footprint,
21:28then no, it would leave a footprint.
21:31So in sum, it is not now and never has been possible
21:35for anybody from post office or Fujitsu
21:38to interfere with transactions
21:41without the clear knowledge of the Postmaster.
21:44It is 100% true to say we can't change, alter, modify existing systems.
21:49It is 100% true to say we can't change, alter, modify existing transaction data.
21:52So the integrity is 100% preserved.
21:55And that's true now and has been?
21:57Yes.
21:58For the duration of the system?
21:59Yes.
22:00OK.
22:07Despite these denials, our evidence of remote access
22:10was crucial to the Postmaster's victory in their High Court case.
22:15The BBC Panorama programme that you did in 2015
22:19was very important in that.
22:21In fact, I'm not sure that this litigation would have happened
22:24as it did had Panorama not made that programme.
22:29The judge decided our whistleblower was right.
22:33Remote access was possible without the Postmaster knowing.
22:38Why was that so important?
22:41Because it made a fundamental difference
22:44to the reliability of the accounts
22:46and a fundamental difference to the credibility of post office
22:50in what it had been saying to a number of people,
22:53including in response to your programme.
23:02The post office told the court it had inadvertently misled Panorama.
23:10The post office's barrister said it was a matter of enormous regret
23:13that the senior managers who dealt with Panorama
23:16were not aware that remote access to Horizon was possible.
23:20The post office claimed that that was just an honest mistake.
23:26But our documents suggest that isn't true.
23:33This Ernst & Young report was sent to post office directors
23:36back in 2011.
23:39It says it has again identified weaknesses in the Horizon system
23:44and it warned that Fujitsu staff have unrestricted access
23:48to Postmaster's accounts that may lead to the processing
23:52of unauthorised or erroneous transactions.
23:55So the post office knew all along that remote access was possible.
24:03We showed our evidence to the then chair of the Business Select Committee.
24:08What does that say to you about their attitude towards the truth?
24:12They were either mistaken or they were misleading the courts,
24:15but this document suggests that they couldn't be mistaken
24:19because the truth is here in black and white.
24:22Just spell out to us how serious that is.
24:24I think this is very serious.
24:26It is very serious that the post office was sitting on information
24:30that told them, and could have told the courts and their sub-postmasters,
24:35that other people could access their systems.
24:42Fujitsu was also sitting on information.
24:46The judge was so worried about the evidence Fujitsu witnesses
24:49had given in other post office cases,
24:52he referred the matter to the Director of Public Prosecutions.
24:58Fujitsu says it takes the judgment very seriously
25:01and is conducting a thorough process to review the court's statements.
25:08The post office has launched a scheme it says offers redress
25:11for those who may have experienced shortfalls.
25:16Its new leadership is promising fundamental change and greater transparency.
25:24So what about the woman who was in charge of the post office for so long?
25:29Paula Venels left the organisation last year
25:32and was given a CBE by the government and two new jobs.
25:36But the government has now turned against her.
25:40There's no question that the post office management at the time
25:43behaved disgracefully.
25:45None of them are now in position.
25:47Officials were misled by the post office
25:50and the information provided was not correct.
25:54Paula Venels declined to be interviewed
25:56but said it was and remains a source of great regret
26:00that colleagues and their families were affected over so many years.
26:04She's truly sorry we were unable to find a solution or resolution
26:08and for the distress this caused.
26:13But she hasn't answered any of our questions.
26:21Hello Ms Venels, it's Nick Wallace from the Panorama programme.
26:24This conversation is being filmed.
26:26I'd like to ask you some questions
26:28about your tenure as chief executive of the post office.
26:30Nick, I'm sorry, I've already given a statement to the programme.
26:34No, I would like to ask you
26:36why the post office knew about remote access to the Horizon system.
26:43This is one of the biggest frustrations about covering this story for so long.
26:46The consistent refusal of the chief executive
26:49and the people at the top to answer serious questions
26:52about what's been happening.
26:54I think the postmasters deserve better than that.
27:05MPs have demanded answers from Paula Venels
27:09and politicians on both sides of the House want a public inquiry.
27:14People went to prison.
27:16People's livelihoods were lost
27:20and some of the victims ended their lives.
27:26That is enough for a judge-led public inquiry.
27:32I've never heard of anything like it at all,
27:34where a government-owned organisation
27:38attacked on the basis of false evidence
27:44the integrity of so many pillars of the community.
27:48It's a quite extraordinary story.
27:52Has there been a cover-up?
27:54I believe that there has been
27:57and it's probably still going on.
28:02The postmasters won't stop until they get to the truth.
28:06They've been lying, not just to this postmaster, to everybody.
28:09They've been lying from day one.
28:13I want to see somebody be held accountable
28:17for what's happened.
28:19Because you can't go...
28:21You can't create this kind of injustice on people
28:25and then just walk away with it's got free.
28:31A much-loved national institution has become a national disgrace
28:36and hundreds of lives have been shattered
28:39by the scandal at the post office.
28:47Andrew Moir concludes his History of Modern Britain now on BBC4,
28:51looking back to a time when boom turned to bust.