Sunderland transfer latest amid Tom Cannon bid plus Alex Mendy and Roko Simic
Sunderland transfer latest amid Tom Cannon bid plus Alex Mendy and Roko Simic
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunland Echo.
00:28My name is Jason Jones.
00:30I'm joined as always by James Copley and Phil Smith.
00:33Lads, pleasure to see you on a Tuesday morning.
00:36This week we had a bank holiday, didn't we?
00:38Of course. Transfer deadline day is rapidly closing in on us.
00:42So I'm sure that we're going to spend the vast majority of this podcast talking about transfers,
00:46potential incomings, potential outgoings from the Stadium of Light as well.
00:50But before we do, just a quick word on Sunderland's performance against Burnley at the weekend.
00:55One nil win over the Clarets at the Stadium of Light.
00:57That's now three wins out of three for Regis Lebrie's side.
01:01No goals conceded.
01:02Yeah. Phil, I mean, in some respects,
01:05was this a more impressive display from Sunderland than the one we saw against Sheffield Wednesday the weekend before that?
01:12Yeah, I thought so. I definitely thought so.
01:14I thought that because that Sheffield Wednesday game,
01:17I think probably caught Sheffield Wednesday out a little bit, almost kind of blitzed the game in the first half hour.
01:22I thought this one was so impressive in that, you know,
01:26I thought Sunderland were better in both phases of the game.
01:29You know, they completely dominated the first half an hour,
01:32probably should have scored more than they did.
01:35But then only being one nil up against the side of Burnley's quality,
01:38they then had to play almost like a very different game after that.
01:40And I thought the way they managed the game in the second half,
01:42the way they sort of just sucked the life out of it,
01:45really, could probably have done more with some really promising counter-attacking opportunities.
01:49I think for Sunderland to show two really different sides to the game
01:53and then also see it out with 10 at the end was kind of,
01:56I thought that was really exciting and definitely something different to what we've seen this season.
02:00So really encouraging. I suppose obviously a couple of days on,
02:04you kind of look at it a little bit in perspective as well.
02:06And the one thing I think we have to acknowledge is I don't think there'll be a better day to play Burnley this season.
02:12You know, we've definitely caught Burnley in between.
02:15If you look at the players who are absent from their squad on Saturday
02:18and the players who they're about to sign to replace those players,
02:21you think, right, that was a really good day to play Burnley.
02:24But having said that, it was still a really strong 11 that they put out
02:28and a team that I think would beat a lot of teams at this level.
02:30So that's not putting dampener on it,
02:32but I think I'm just looking at it slightly differently
02:34and think we definitely caught Burnley in a bit of a sweet spot there.
02:38I really did think the performance was exemplary.
02:41We spoke about that on the whistle video on YouTube.
02:44I said to James about 20 minutes in the end,
02:45I said, even if Sunderland don't get over the line,
02:48I'm coming away from this game feeling really confident
02:51and really happy about how strong this team is
02:53because the overall performance level was tremendous.
02:55So yeah, definitely like some caveats to it,
02:58but I'm just coming away feeling like this team's in a really, really good place.
03:03And Phil obviously mentioned absences there, James.
03:06No bigger absence than Jack Clarke for Sunderland.
03:09Obviously, he's gone from the club now and it is very, very early days,
03:13but Romain Mundel could hardly have asked for a better introduction
03:17to life as a successor, could he?
03:19Yeah, he's been fantastic.
03:21He impressed both Phil and I down Bradford in pre-season.
03:25I think maybe the club do perhaps deserve a little bit of credit
03:28for maybe having a succession plan already in place.
03:32Will Sunderland be able to rely on Mundel for 46 games as they did Jack Clarke?
03:36Probably not, but we've got Wilson Isidor now
03:39who can apparently play from the left-hand side.
03:42So it seems to me like Sunderland have prepared long-term for that eventuality.
03:47Hugely helped by the fact that Mundel scored a really,
03:50really good goal with a really good finish,
03:52which was reminiscent of Clarke in a way.
03:55So I was hugely impressed, not just by his attack and output as well,
03:59but by his work rate. I thought defensively,
04:02tracking back, he was very good.
04:04He's clearly got a lot of talent.
04:06Lebris and Mundel mentioned it after the game,
04:08though the key is consistency.
04:11What I will say about Mundel as well is that it makes such a big difference
04:14having Dennis Sergen as your left-back,
04:16because whilst I don't think Dennis Sergen went outside of Mundel quite as often
04:21as he did with Clarke in the previous two games,
04:23it was just that defensive stability that allowed
04:26Romain Mundel to kick on a little bit.
04:29And it's a hugely pleasing win. Phil mentioned there about,
04:34you know, there might not be a better time to play Burnley,
04:37and that's true. I've seen a lot of Burnley fans lament
04:40in the transfer business the state of the squad when they came up to Sunderland.
04:44But, you know, James Trafford, extremely highly rated goalkeeper,
04:47multi-million pound goalkeeper, might get sold in this window
04:49for another multi-million pound deal.
04:51Conor Roberts, you know, Welsh international right-back.
04:54Josh Brownhill went for 10 million not so long ago, Premier League experience.
04:59So there was certainly enough in that team to do Sunderland some serious damage.
05:03It didn't happen. Sunderland managed the game really well.
05:07And it's crazy, isn't it?
05:08Because Sunderland have never won three in the league
05:11without conceding from the start of the season,
05:14which is a crazy start.
05:15And it's the first time that they've won three on the bounce
05:18at the beginning of a league season in 99 years.
05:20So, crazy, really. We talk about the sort of things
05:25Rudi Labrie has had to tick off.
05:27So, he's ticked off his first home win, his first away win.
05:30And Sunderland have survived a little bit of a gut check as well
05:33with the Dan Neil standing off.
05:34So, there's been a little bit of adversity now.
05:36So, we keep ticking off these things under Labrie and long may it continue
05:40because the next thing to tick off is a rare away win at Portsmouth,
05:44which proved difficult for Sunderland in various divisions over the years.
05:47Doesn't happen that often.
05:50So, I'm really interested to see what happens come Saturday.
05:54You mentioned Wilson Isidor there.
05:56Obviously, he had his introduction to the crowd on Saturday.
05:59He came out of the stadium with a really decent reception, it has to be said.
06:02I mean, what can we expect from him, from what we've seen of him?
06:07Obviously, highly rated player, initially joining on a loan from Zenit Saint Petersburg.
06:12I mean, do you think he will be operating through the centre?
06:14Do you think we are more likely to see him coming off the left?
06:17I think from the stands that his versatility is one of the main reasons why Sunderland signed him.
06:22I think judging by his career so far, he's a centre forward first and foremost,
06:26but he's definitely one who can play off the left.
06:28I would say that I think it's a little bit,
06:31I think all of this is just a little bit up in the air.
06:34I said all summer that I thought this might be the first time
06:36where we had a relatively quiet end to the transfer window
06:39and we've now got four days out and I'm like, oh, it's going to be really busy again.
06:44I'm braced for like a lot to happen at Sunderland this week.
06:47And I still think that, you know, Isidor is one of those players
06:50where we're not 100% sure yet where he's going to fit into the puzzle.
06:53I think off the back of Clark leaving,
06:56I think if Clark stays then Isidor is probably mostly going to play through the middle.
07:00Now that Clark's gone, I think there's a little bit of a question mark.
07:02I think the reality is that from what I can gather,
07:06you know, we never fully know what's going on behind the scenes.
07:08It looks to me like Sunderland are trying to sign probably two attackers to come in now.
07:13I think they just want to sign two good attackers.
07:15If it's a left winger and a striker, they'll do it.
07:17If it's two strikers, they'll do it. Do you know what I mean?
07:19And we know that they love those like versatile players
07:22who can play in a lot of different positions.
07:24So I can definitely see a scenario where Sunderland signs two centre forwards,
07:28Mendy and another, and Isidor plays primarily off the left at the same time.
07:32If they have an opportunity to, you know, just speak and hypothetically sign,
07:36you know, a Premier League lone player on the left wing,
07:38then they might do that and Isidor becomes one of your three strikers.
07:41So I think his versatility is a key asset.
07:44I think he's quick. I think he likes to run in behind,
07:46which is definitely something that there wasn't enough of in the Sunderland squad before.
07:50It's just the same, you know, you never know how quickly these kind of players are going to adapt and settle.
07:55That's the sort of the key question really.
07:57And it'll be the same with Isidor.
07:59So I think it's one of those where I think that the puzzle will be a bit more complete after the end of the window.
08:06And, you know, as I say,
08:07having expected it to be really quiet and thinking there wouldn't be a lot of sort,
08:11all of a sudden I'm looking at a week where I think there's actually a huge amount that could happen.
08:17Well, we might as well properly pile in that transfer to Arden
08:20because there is loads and loads to be getting through.
08:22I mean, the most recent report probably being Tom Cannon,
08:25obviously on the books at Leicester City at the moment,
08:27reports of a £5 million bid from Sunderland to try and prise him away from the King Power Stadium.
08:33I mean, what do we know about that at this stage?
08:39Well, listen, I think that, as I said, I'm looking at it thinking
08:43if the squad stays fairly similar now, Sunderland will try and sign two players.
08:47So we know that they're still very much in the race for Mendy.
08:51I think Tom Cannon is, it's probably a really good example of,
08:54you know, sorry to use the word, but inverted commas, the model.
08:57You know, Tom Cannon's a player who would have been out of Sunderland's price,
09:00well, he was out of Sunderland's price range last summer
09:02when he went to a club with Premier League parachute payments.
09:05The sale of Jack Clark, I think, brings him potentially,
09:08possibly, you know, into their budget now.
09:11I think that he's clearly not in Leicester's plans.
09:14The big caveat is, is that there'd be all sorts of competition for him if he does go.
09:18But the Clark fee puts Sunderland in a position
09:21that they could never have been in up until now.
09:24I think that it's unlikely that Sunderland,
09:28well, Sunderland I don't think would sign Cannon, Mendy and Simic.
09:32I think it's a case of all of these players have a number of options
09:35and in all of the cases, that's still work to be done on fees and what have you.
09:39So I think Sunderland are trying to put themselves in a strong position
09:41with a number of players and it's really just a case of seeing which one's full.
09:45I think that's the reality of it.
09:47You know, I'm looking at it thinking, can I see Cannon and Simic both signing?
09:52Financially, I think it's tricky to see that. More than anything,
09:55I think both of those players are players who would come to Sunderland to play.
09:58You know, Simic isn't leaving, you know, a Champions League club not to play.
10:02Cannon isn't going to come to a club in the Championship where he's not going to play.
10:05So I find it hard to see them doing both of those deals.
10:08So I think you've got to put these reports in the context of where Sunderland are at,
10:11which is knowing that they need to strengthen up front,
10:13knowing that there's huge competition for players in these positions,
10:17particularly up front, which is the hardest one to do.
10:19And I think it's just a case of them being in the race for a number of players
10:23and just trying to work out which deal is going to be the right one for them.
10:25So, but I think the Cannon one, I think, you know,
10:28everyone will have their own opinions of him as a player.
10:31I've not really seen enough of him to know for sure,
10:33but I think it's one that hopefully will reassure people a little bit that this is the,
10:37this is the project in action, if you like.
10:39So you have a big setback where you lose Clarke,
10:42but hopefully that gives you the chance to go and do a deal
10:44that you wouldn't otherwise have been able to do.
10:47So yeah, it's going to be really interesting to see how that one develops.
10:49But I think the sheer level of championship competition that will exist if he does go,
10:53I think means that we shouldn't get too excited just yet.
10:58And I know you were saying last night, James,
11:00that you think in some respects if Sunderland are going to go out
11:03and spend a substantial amount of money on a strike,
11:05a Cannon kind of makes more sense in some respects.
11:11It does. It depends what you want, really.
11:13Obviously, Alexander Mendy's got a proven track record.
11:15He's played a lot of games. He's scored a lot of goals, albeit not in England.
11:19Tom Cannon might present a better option financially because he's nine years younger.
11:24So there's potential resale value. So if you're going to drop,
11:27you know, upwards of three million pounds or three million euros,
11:30anything to five, six, seven on a player,
11:33you're probably going to want to do it on a 21-year-old.
11:35The flip side of that is that Tom Cannon, just looking at his record here,
11:39he played 21 times for Preston North End, 16 times for Leicester City last season,
11:44and he's scored, I think, 11 goals.
11:47So he's not hugely experienced. You know, signing Tom Cannon,
11:51although hugely talented and highly rated, would present a little bit of a risk.
11:54But there's risk with both players, to be honest,
11:57because Mendy, you know, he's not EFL experienced.
12:00That can be a learning curve. We've seen that.
12:03He does have more experience of football and life in general than Tom Cannon,
12:07but it's really hard to judge, and I suppose it depends what you like and what you're after.
12:13I do agree with Phil. I think we'll probably bring two of those three in.
12:17I think it's really interesting.
12:20We've had the Clark outgoing now, but will there be another one?
12:23Obviously, there's PR Equa reports, which I'm sure you'll come on to,
12:27but I think we're set for an interesting end to the window,
12:32sort of a flurry of business, really, with a few outgoing loans expected as well.
12:36But I think in terms of Le Modèle, as I've heard it dubbed,
12:41which I found quite funny and a nice alternative to the model that we've all been talking about for quite some time,
12:47I do think that it's pleasing to see the sort of next stage of it,
12:53the next stage of it advance, if that makes sense, in terms of we knew that a big sale was coming.
12:59But I think a lot of Sunderland fans can make peace with that as long as it's reinvested, really,
13:03and reinvested well. And that's the big challenge for Christian Sunderland.
13:08Obviously, we've mentioned his name a couple of times, Alexandre Mendy.
13:11I mean, he's certainly not quieting down any, is he?
13:14He really is still trying to push for this move to Sunderland.
13:18Well, yeah, from what I can understand, I think obviously, you know, well,
13:22Mendy's been very, very clear in terms of what happened.
13:24There was obviously some kind of gentleman's agreement in place last summer that he would stay for another year,
13:30and that then his club wouldn't stand in his way.
13:33What obviously has changed the picture completely is his takeover.
13:36So I think Sunderland were fairly, obviously there was no deal done or anything like that,
13:40but I think they were fairly, fairly well along the line in terms of negotiations with the previous regime,
13:46which is why obviously everybody kind of thought it was going to happen.
13:49The new regime, as is their right, by the way,
13:51because it's their club, obviously see things a bit differently, and that's kind of stalled it.
13:56So from what I understand, Sunderland is definitely still keen to do it.
14:00They would like to sign Mendy. Mendy clearly still wants the move.
14:04You would think it would still be in his club's interest to get the deal done
14:07because at the moment he's not part of their plan.
14:09So, you know, you would think that they would want to just get a return on that.
14:13And so that leads me to think that there's still a really good chance it happens this week.
14:17The flip side to that is that this situation has obviously been going on for the best part of a month now,
14:21even a little bit longer now, I think. And as far as I'm aware, there is still a gap in evaluation.
14:26So there's absolutely no guarantees it gets done.
14:28I think, as you alluded to there, the sheer strength with which Mendy has made clear he wants this move.
14:33And the fact that I know Sunderland is still, I wouldn't say waiting,
14:37because we've seen from all the players we've already discussed that they are looking at other options.
14:41I think the fact that they're still open to this leads me to think that there's a good chance it gets done.
14:45But, you know, someone is going to have to fold.
14:50And I'll be honest with you, from what we've seen from Sunderland over the last couple of years,
14:53strikes me as highly unlikely to be them because they're not, you know,
14:56this isn't a regime that, you know, quickly buckles and releases a lot more money,
15:01especially when it comes to signing strikers. So I don't know. It's really hard to judge.
15:05My gut tells me it will probably happen because of the sheer will.
15:09Well, you know, Sunderland aren't going to, let's be blunt about it,
15:12Sunderland aren't going to go back to the table with another three million quid, are they?
15:15It's just not what they do. So, yeah, it's going to be a really, really interesting few days.
15:20I do find it pleasing, though, that Sunderland's eggs don't appear to be all in one basket.
15:25I think the Kiefer Moore transfer debacle, it was very much Moore and bust, wasn't it?
15:30Or it appeared that way from an outside perspective. I'm sure they did have other irons in the fire,
15:35but that was the only really one we knew about. And that's certainly how it felt.
15:38But this time around, it appears like there's a few more irons in the fire
15:42and that could only be a good thing, really. The caveat to that is, as Phil mentioned,
15:46the likes of Tom Cannon, there's going to be intense competition for him
15:49because he's extremely highly rated.
15:51If I just come quickly back in on that point as well, I think what Sunderland would say as well is,
15:56whether people agree or not, is I think they would argue that was one of the reasons
15:59why they took that bid for Clarke last week. I think maybe there's a little bit of a,
16:04they've changed their view on that a little bit because of what happened with Stewart last year.
16:09Obviously, if I remember rightly, obviously, Stewart went on deadline day,
16:12but I think the deal really started to progress the day before.
16:16Obviously, there was a few noises that whole week about Stewart going.
16:18I think it was the night before deadline day where it was actually sort of agreed
16:22and that did leave them really, really short on time for a replacement.
16:25And I do think part of the logic in accepting that bid for Clarke
16:29was that it did give them a full run, a full week at signing replacements.
16:34Now, when I say replacement, as we've discussed, I don't mean another left winger like Jack Clarke.
16:38I mean, in terms of being able to go out and get attackers.
16:40And I think part of the logic was, is that when they've been planning,
16:43as they obviously did potentially for Clarke going earlier in the summer,
16:46you know, they obviously were looking at a number of players and some of those have already moved.
16:50And I do think the view was, look, if we can get some certainty on this now with Clarke,
16:55it gives us a chance to move before some of these other names on our list, they all go and move.
16:59And I think Cannon's a great example of that because of the competition we've talked about.
17:02So, you know, I said last week, that fee I would have considered keeping Clarke
17:06because I feel like you should have still been able to go out and get one more striker
17:11and then seeing what happens next summer.
17:13But I think there's definitely part of the logic, I think,
17:15in accepting that bid for Clarke was that it gave them this run at bringing in other players
17:21before they sort of sorted their own futures.
17:24And as well, just quickly, what I think we've got to remember is, you know,
17:26Eliza May and Annette did too against Sheffield Wednesday and had a reasonable game against Burnley as well.
17:31He's now a viable option for Sunderland.
17:34And I think that's hugely positive, really, that he's got his first couple of goals for Sunderland
17:39and hopefully he can build on that.
17:42And obviously the third name that keeps on getting mentioned, again,
17:45already been mentioned in this podcast a couple of times, but Rocco Simic.
17:48I mean, can we just sort of clear up where Sunderland are in that respect?
17:53Yeah, well, I'm not sure in terms of where it's developed over the weekend.
17:57The last time I understood it was, so obviously people will remember,
18:00I think it was Thursday, wasn't it, the reports?
18:03Well, not just in Austria, in various places saying that he was headed to Wearside for a medical.
18:07As far as I understand it, that wasn't the case, but he had had talks with the Sunderland hierarchy.
18:14So there was a lot of truth in it, but it wasn't the full truth.
18:16So the deal wasn't advanced at all.
18:19He booked, Sunderland has obviously been in talks,
18:21and as I understand it, the player has had direct one-to-one talks with the Sunderland hierarchy.
18:27So that's definitely a potential goer. Again, he's part of that puzzle.
18:31I think there is other interest in him. As I said, and this is just my gut,
18:35it's not sort of direct, sort of inside report.
18:38My gut is that I don't see him and Cannon, for example, both coming at the same time.
18:42To me, they are both out-and-out nines.
18:45If you manage to land one of them, it's because they're going to come in and play,
18:48and they're going to sort of lead your line. Could be wrong on that,
18:51but I just don't see both of them signing. Could I see one of them in Mendy?
18:56You know, as a slightly more experienced player, I probably could.
19:01So we'll wait and see on that one.
19:02So he's definitely still potentially an option, but I don't see him and Cannon both signing.
19:08In my head, that just doesn't quite work out.
19:13And James, is there anywhere else in the squad that you look at
19:17and think that Sunderland could potentially look to strengthen between now and Friday's deadline?
19:22I think a lot will depend on outgoings.
19:25I think if Ekwo was to go and there's been reports of interest ramping up in him,
19:29whether he does go or not is a different question.
19:32You would hope that maybe Sunderland could strengthen in that midfield.
19:35Obviously, they're playing three midfielders at the moment, a 10, an 8 and a 6.
19:40It's a long season. Sunderland play very fast-paced, pressing style.
19:44So you'd imagine, you know, Rigg, Jobb, Neil would need to drop out at some point.
19:49Neil's already suspended for one game. Obviously, you've got Alan Brown hanging around,
19:52which is hugely positive, but having sort of four players for three positions, I don't think would work.
19:58So I think if Ekwo went, you'd need to strengthen there.
20:02Full-backs possibly one as well.
20:05Obviously, Huggins is out injured. Sealt as well would probably deputise at full-back as well,
20:10but he's going to be injured for some time.
20:12You know, given Sirkin's injury record, it would be good, I think, to have some cover in that position.
20:20Adji Alissi could cover at left-back as well, but he's progressing at centre-back.
20:25Obviously, Dan Ballard to come back in at some point as well.
20:28But then you look at Adji Alissi's injury record and that is a little bit of a concern as well.
20:33So perhaps just a little bit of cover there. Interestingly enough, you know,
20:38might not have been ready for regular first-team involvement,
20:40but Oli Bainbridge might have been able to sort of cover that spot in the squad.
20:43Obviously, he's gone out to kill Marduk now to further his development.
20:46So that's positive. So I just think there needs to be a bit of cover there.
20:49They might look at Joe Anderson at the moment as that sort of squad filler,
20:55but he's probably going to leave. So if he does go,
20:58then you are sort of seriously short on numbers in that position, I would suggest.
21:02But yeah, as we've mentioned on a lot of the podcasts during this window,
21:07so much depends on whether Sunderland can secure loans.
21:09I mean, if Zac Johnson goes out on loan, he might have to look at another bit of cover there as well.
21:16You could argue that maybe Sunderland's slightly light on the left wing
21:19if a Jefferson Bennett went out on loan as well, as probably expected at some point.
21:23So I think there's a lot of questions.
21:26Abdullah Barr on the right, obviously they've brought Perveda in,
21:28so that wouldn't be a priority, but he can play in multiple positions
21:32and had a fairly decent output in terms of goals and assists last season.
21:37So it all depends, I think. And then you're looking at the wages going,
21:41the wages sort of coming back into the club that these players would vacate,
21:46and it can open up interesting opportunities.
21:48And we've actually seen Sunderland before spring a few surprises, haven't we,
21:52where they've announced deals that nobody's really had a clue about until they've happened.
21:55So I certainly wouldn't rule out something like that either.
22:00Obviously, a lot of potential outgoings between now and Friday.
22:03We might as well sort of take a closer look at some of those,
22:06dive into them in a little bit more detail.
22:08I see James mentioned there that Pierre Ekwert appears to be a man in demand,
22:12according to some reports on the continent.
22:14I mean, what's the latest with his situation?
22:17Yeah, I mean, it's definitely one that I could see happening.
22:22I think it's just, it's fairly obvious,
22:24I think, when you look at the dynamics of the squad at the moment,
22:26which is, you know, I mean, Ekwert was a little bit unfortunate
22:29and obviously that he missed a big chunk of pre-season with a back injury,
22:32which obviously put him well behind in the players.
22:34But even then, though, I think there were some signs,
22:37even in La Brice's really early pre-season selections, weren't there,
22:40that he might be looking at Regan and also Brown slightly ahead of Ekwert.
22:44And that's obviously just something that's continued while Ekwert's been recovering.
22:48At the moment, I don't get the impression,
22:51Sunderland aren't actively looking to move Ekwert on.
22:53I think at the moment they're looking at it going,
22:55we've got four centre and midfield options, which is the right number.
22:58You know, we think they're four good centre and midfield options
23:01and that's what we need for a long season.
23:03And I think the view internally is that it's on Ekwert to force his way into the team,
23:07basically, and it's up to him. Having said that,
23:11you know, if Ekwert feels there's an opportunity out there
23:13and Sunderland can bring in a decent fee,
23:15the fact that he is currently their fourth choice centre and midfielder,
23:17I think means they would do it. Now, that's been the issue all summer
23:21and I know it was reported that Udinese came in with it.
23:24Well, they did come in with a kind of a formal initial offer quite early in the summer.
23:27I think that was in July. I think it was around the time Sunderland were in Spain.
23:31And sort of the word back from the club then was that it was an offer
23:34that was miles away that would make them even consider doing anything.
23:40I know the report today from Futmacato say that Sunderland value him in about 7 million euros,
23:46which I think is probably about right. Where is that in terms of,
23:49is he the player that we saw against Southampton, against Preston on that final day of the previous season?
23:54Is he the player that we saw last season at times where he really struggled?
23:57Well, he's probably somewhere in the middle, right, with a lot of potential.
23:59So the thing for me is like, it's definitely one I could see happening,
24:04but Sunderland are going to push him out the door,
24:06which means that somebody has to fork out a decent fee.
24:09Is the market there for him? My instinct all summer has been that it's possibly not,
24:13that the clubs would be interested and probably can't hit that level that Sunderland want.
24:16But that's obviously something that could change in the final few days of the window.
24:19So I don't see that as an inevitability, but it's definitely one to watch.
24:23I don't see many, I think the outgoings this week is the vast majority is going to be sort of young players going out on loan,
24:30I think. But Ecuador is definitely one where there could be some movement,
24:33but I don't think it's nailed on. I think the question is whether somebody can meet the asking price.
24:38And as I said, Sunderland aren't looking to move him out.
24:41So it'll be an interesting one, that.
24:45I mean, obviously, you're sort of saying that you believe that it will probably be a lot of the less senior players who might be looking to leave on loan.
24:53But interesting development at the weekend when Adil Ashish and Abdul Abbar were both left out of the Manchester United squad against Burnley.
25:00I mean, where do you think Lapre stands on that?
25:05Yeah, well, he was, I mean, he was really, really blunt in this post-match press conference, really,
25:10in saying that there's no kind of big story, really.
25:12But, you know, the door's open for him, but he'll have to work really hard.
25:15And I think that ultimately it would have been slightly different if we were talking about this in two weeks' time,
25:20when Sunderland had signed, you know, Isidor and maybe two other strikers,
25:24and you could go, well, somebody needs to make way in the squad.
25:26But, you know, it felt quite telling to me that Tommy Watson was there ahead of either two of those players.
25:31Now, I think Tommy Watson's a brilliantly talented young player, by the way, and I think he'll have a big future in the game.
25:35But it did feel quite telling that he was in there.
25:38And, you know, the fact that Pavetta, who, you know, at the moment hasn't actually played any football,
25:42was ahead of Aoushish Mbara, I thought that was quite telling.
25:44I do think Aoushish is one where I could definitely see an exit.
25:49Again, he had a decent pre-season.
25:51We've shown flashes of talent from him over the last year.
25:54There is no reason why Sunderland would look to sort of rush him out.
25:57But I think from his perspective, he isn't getting past Job, is he?
26:01I think that's just the reality of the situation.
26:03Like, you know, Job, I think, you know, James and I talked about how highly we rate Job,
26:08and I think we both felt he was set for a big season.
26:10But there was an element of him coming into the campaign with, you know, fans kind of wondering about his place in the team
26:15and the fact that he played so much last year.
26:17Well, that debate's over, isn't it?
26:18He's been outstanding in the first three games of the season.
26:21So he's not going anywhere.
26:23And I think, you know, you've got Rigue who can play in that slightly more attacking midfield role.
26:28You know, will Labriez consider playing two up front at times now that he's got Isidore?
26:32And there's all these little different things that I think it looks like really difficult for Aoushish to play regularly.
26:37The other aspect, you know, is that the reason why Aoushish came to Sunderland
26:43was because he wasn't getting games under Labriez at Lorient.
26:46So, you know, I'm not saying there's been a fallout or anything.
26:49That's absolutely not the case.
26:50But, you know, is there something where he's just not Labriez's type of player?
26:55Maybe Labriez just doesn't see him as a regular starter.
26:58So I think that is one definitely to watch because I think where he is at in his career and the talent he's got,
27:04I really don't get the vibe that he's going to be happy picking up 20 minutes here and there.
27:09So that's definitely one to watch for sure.
27:11Just on that Bart Aoushish transfer story, and I'll throw this sort of philosophical question to the both of you.
27:17But do you think that perhaps they're listening to Labriez a bit more as a head coach in terms of his input?
27:23Because I'm just thinking back to Tony Mowbray, Alex Neil, maybe even Michael Bale as well.
27:29I just I can't see them being as blunt with Abdullah Barra and Adil Aoushish.
27:35It feels to me whether it's just perception or not,
27:37like Labriez's ideas are being taken on board a little bit more when it comes to recruitment.
27:42I might be well for that, but that's just the vibe I get a little bit.
27:45Yeah, I think there's possibly an element of that.
27:47I think we are seeing some, I don't know, it's an interesting one because we look at it and saying,
27:52are we seeing signs of pragmatism in terms of signing Alan Brown, for example?
27:55You know, I know the Southerners are totally, well, we signed Bradley Dack last year,
27:59you know, inverted commas for Tony Mowbray, it was just that he wasn't fitting.
28:03So I think it's an interesting one.
28:05Southerners would definitely say, no, like we've always done this.
28:07We've always signed players who the head coach wanted and we've always signed experienced.
28:11And there definitely does seem to be a little bit more pragmatism sort of in what they're doing this summer.
28:15Is it possibly that there's just a bit more of an alignment with what Labriez wants
28:19and what the club see as being the ideal kind of player and what have you?
28:23I think that's possibly true.
28:25I think it's very obvious that Labriez was very much all over the Isidore signing,
28:28wasn't he, in terms of you spoke about having to try and sign him at Lorient last year.
28:32And obviously Isidore's profile is kind of perfect for what the club like to do.
28:36So maybe it's less of a sort of deliberate thing
28:39and maybe it's just a bit more of an alignment behind the scenes.
28:42I mean, I don't know for sure, but Labriez has worked in France for the last however many years.
28:47So it strikes me that he will know a lot about Alexandre Mendy, for example.
28:51I think that's fairly obvious, isn't he? He was the top scorer in the French second division last year.
28:55So I think there's possibly something to that,
28:57but I don't know whether it's deliberate or whether it's just the fact that Labriez
29:00maybe is just a neater fit for what they're trying to do in the playing style and the players they want to bring in.
29:06So yeah, it's going to be really interesting last few days of the window for sure.
29:11To add to that as well, I wonder if a little bit of it is sort of profiling communication as well,
29:15with Labriez being French and Kyrill being French and the sort of, as you say,
29:21a line and more is a very different profile to a Mowbray or an Alex Neil who have,
29:27you know, enjoyed a level of control over clubs at various points in their careers, haven't they, Jason?
29:32Yeah, I mean, I think it's absolutely a fair point.
29:36I think you both bang on the money with it.
29:37But I do think that the other thing to point out is that when Labriez is getting off to such a flying start,
29:44surely it then becomes a little bit easier for the board to sort of, you know,
29:49I mean, if he struggled through those first three games,
29:51maybe the board is sitting there thinking, are we going in the right direction here?
29:54You've put in the performances that someone would have to gain the nine points that they've already gotten.
29:58Suddenly everything just becomes a little bit easier.
30:01Everybody's sort of pulling in the right direction.
30:03It feels as if the club is moving in the right direction.
30:06It's very early days, you know, it has to be reiterated.
30:08But I think surely that is a factor that's going to massively help his cause as well.
30:14I just want to move on and talk about Dewis and Bennett James.
30:17Obviously, we were at the under-21s on Monday night.
30:21He scored a brace against Middlesbrough, looked really lively.
30:24He's a player who's, again, been heavily linked with a possible loan exit.
30:28I mean, do you think that is the right move for him at this point in his career?
30:33Yeah, I think so. I think it would be good for him to go out to an AFL club
30:37but that one doesn't look like it's progressed to being close to completion just yet,
30:42simply because he was in Sunderland under-21 squad last night, as you mentioned.
30:46Every time I watch Dewis, I think he's certainly got something.
30:50Is he first team ready?
30:51Yet, probably not. He does possess pace.
30:55He's always lively up and down the left-hand side.
30:58When I watch the under-21s, he gets himself in good positions.
31:00What was really pleasing, actually, when we spoke to Graeme Murthy last night,
31:03he said that against Newcastle, United under-21s in the opening game of the Premier League 2
31:08that had a word with Bennett and that said,
31:11we'd like you, please, to basically drift in more from the left-hand side and get in goal-scoring positions.
31:17And Murthy's point was the pleasing thing is that we've told him that and he's listened
31:21and he's done it twice against Middlesbrough a week later, which is hugely encouraging.
31:27You know, perception counts for a lot.
31:28And every time I see him, he looks happy and bubbly.
31:31He doesn't look like he sulks or anything like that.
31:33He seems quite a driven and professional character.
31:38Last night, he was staying behind taking photos for people.
31:41He seemed really happy.
31:42So, I think he's a good character.
31:44He's clearly got talent, but he's not going to play the required games.
31:47He's a Costa Rica international for a reason.
31:50Played at the last World Cup.
31:52He was very highly rated when he came to Surin, but it just hasn't worked for him.
31:55And you can understand why, because Jack Clarke's had that left-wing spot nailed down,
31:59but Bennett's still really young as well.
32:01I think he's only 20 or 21.
32:03So, I think a good loan to a League One club would do him the world of good.
32:08The Greek loan last season didn't really seem to work.
32:12I know he got injured and he went sort of abroad again.
32:16I'd like to see him just get that.
32:17So, a good 12-month loan in English football to build him up.
32:23It's always hard to go on loan in January, isn't it, and make an impact,
32:25and obviously going over to another new country,
32:27having just come over to Sunderland so soon,
32:30I think was always going to be a struggle for him.
32:31But I think he's actually somebody that could benefit from a little bit of clarity.
32:35Here's the plan for you. Go out on loan for 12 months.
32:38Come back and we'll reassess.
32:39Because personally, I think he's clearly got something.
32:41He just needs to play games.
32:42And, you know, Jack Clarke clearly had something.
32:45He just needed to play games.
32:46I'm not saying that Bennett will reach the same levels as Clarke.
32:50We just don't know that.
32:51But there's a lot of good young players in the country that just need to play,
32:54that need to be allowed to make mistakes, and then you can reassess.
33:01And I know we've spoken about him before, Phil,
33:02but Louis Hamier, another player who's perhaps facing a bit of an uncertain future.
33:07I mean, where do you see him ending up by the end of this transfer window?
33:12Yeah, I think it's a really tricky one.
33:13I think all the noise really in the last few weeks has been that potentially
33:17Bennett was a lot closer to something happening.
33:20I'm not entirely sure what the dynamics are at Reading in terms of,
33:22I know they're going through a takeover and what have you, aren't they?
33:25So I'm not sure if that's a factor in it.
33:27I think that would be a great move for Bennett, by the way.
33:29It's like a really young team at Reading.
33:31Really good coach in Ruben Seles.
33:33I think that would be a perfect AFL loan for him.
33:37I think Hamier, from what I can gather so far,
33:39it's been a little bit harder to find the right one for him.
33:42It's tricky, really.
33:43Me and James talked about this earlier in the summer and that it's a dilemma with Hamier
33:46because, you know, is he ready to go and play regularly in the AFL yet?
33:51And maybe in the lower divisions? From what we've seen at Sunderland,
33:54I think that might be a big ask for him.
33:56But then the issue is, if he goes abroad on loan,
34:00yes, he might get minutes and it might suit him.
34:02But then does that make him more ready to come and play at Sunderland
34:05if that makes sense in the Championship next year?
34:07I'm not sure it does.
34:08So I think that one's a really tricky dilemma.
34:11I don't envy whoever's having to find the right club and make that right decision
34:14because I think realistically, obviously, the thick part of his game
34:17that Sunderland really want him to work on is getting him ready
34:20for the sort of physical rigours, really, of Championship football.
34:23And I think there's a risk if he goes to the lower leagues that potentially,
34:27you know, there's a chance he gets a little bit lost.
34:30So I think that's a really difficult one to do.
34:32But I think it's really important he goes out because, you know,
34:34Sunderland did invest quite a bit of money in Hamier last summer,
34:37whether it's to come back here and play or whether it's, you know,
34:40next summer shaking hands and saying it hasn't quite worked out.
34:43They need him to be playing in the meantime to leave them in the best possible position.
34:46So I think of all the ones,
34:48I think that's probably one of the trickiest ones to get right this week.
34:53And potential barrage of defensive loonies as well.
34:58I'm just going to throw a few names at you, James,
35:00and just sort of give me your thoughts and opinions on them
35:03and perhaps where their future should lie, perhaps.
35:06You know, Black Johnson not included yesterday in the Under-21s game,
35:11bit of a niggle there, Graham Murthy said, Elliot Anderson, sorry,
35:15Joe Anderson did play. And then aside from that as well,
35:19Timothy Pembele seems to be in a position where everything's just a little bit uncertain for him at the moment.
35:24I mean, what do you make of that trio over these last few days of the transfer window?
35:29I think Johnson's an interesting one because I think Lebris clearly quite likes him.
35:33He said that during pre-season,
35:35evidenced by the fact that he's made the bench a couple of times,
35:37obviously played against Preston. I think if you speak to Zach Johnson,
35:41he'd like to go out on loan and definitely play.
35:43I don't think he wants to sort of sit in between the Under-21s and the first team,
35:48just sort of being part of the squad and the set-up.
35:52He told me after Blackpool he's greedy, he wants to play games,
35:55he wants to develop, he wants to have a similar experience to the experience he had at Dundalk last season,
36:01and he wants to have that at a higher level.
36:04And I admire that as well.
36:05So I think that's certainly what to watch. The caveat to that is that some do need cover at first team level in those positions.
36:12I'm not saying that Zach Johnson is, you know, his first team ready,
36:14but he is an option that can fill a slot on the bench, can play right back and centre back,
36:19and that will certainly weigh on the decision-makers' sort of thinking when it comes to Johnson.
36:25I think Pembele probably expect him to leave.
36:28Obviously, there was some interest from France that Phil wrote about yesterday.
36:31It's clear, isn't it, really, that Lebris doesn't see him as part of his first team squad at all.
36:38Who was the third one? Joe Anderson.
36:40He obviously played last night, didn't he, which you would suspect means that there's nothing close regarding Joe Anderson.
36:47I think he needs to go permanently, to be honest.
36:49I think he's been at Sunderland long enough. It's not quite worked.
36:53I think there is a player there that can go and have a good career in the AFL somewhere,
36:59but I'm just not sure whether the loan move benefits him or Sunderland, really.
37:02And I think permanently for him to have a home to go and play and to go and sort of build his career further,
37:09I think that would be the best option for all parties.
37:11Whether that can happen or not, I'm not sure what sort of fee Sunderland would want.
37:15If any, I don't know.
37:17It may well be that a decent loan move presents itself and they go with that instead.
37:22So, yeah, there's just so many variables with these transfers and a lot of them are certainly ones to watch.
37:29Fast moving as well, I think, you know,
37:31we could get off this podcast now and it could be an entirely different Joe Anderson update.
37:35So, yeah, definitely want to watch.
37:39And finally, Phil, we'll round out with just a quick word on Hector Triantis.
37:43I mean, he's another one who we've had reports suggesting that there is potential interest in him,
37:47but obviously he was involved with the first team on Saturday.
37:50He came off the bench when Sunderland just needed to sort of show things up in those final moments against Burnley.
37:54I mean, do you see him sticking around at the stadium of late this summer?
37:58I think I don't see them all going. I think that would be the simplest way to put it.
38:02I think right now, I don't think Johnson, Anderson and Triantis can all go out on loan
38:07because I don't think there's enough cover at central defence.
38:10And that's a really tricky one because Sunderland won't want to over-invest in that position
38:15and load up too many players on permanent deals because Jenson Seal, you know,
38:19is going to be a big player for the future.
38:21We know that and he is going to be back sometime in the season.
38:24At the same time, he's not close to a comeback, so you need to make sure you've got enough cover.
38:29So, my instinct at the moment is that maybe Triantis would be the one who stays
38:32because I think he's the most first-team ready of the three.
38:34He's certainly got the most senior experience.
38:37So, as it stands, Triantis could go,
38:41but I think that would be a reflection of there not being a deal there for, say,
38:44an Anderson or a Johnson that the club really likes.
38:47You've obviously got Yelder as well and with Ballard coming back to fitness,
38:51there is a chance it could happen, but I think it would be a little bit of a risk at the moment to let all three go,
38:56especially when you consider that there's really no right-back cover for Traheim.
39:00I think it's obvious Pembele is not going to be involved, even if a loan doesn't happen.
39:03So, I think of the three, I think Triantis is probably the one most likely to stay,
39:10but I'd be surprised if all three went.
39:13I know Ballard coming back to fitness, does that complicate it slightly?
39:16Because then that leaves you with at least, say, Ballard 09 and Yelder.
39:19Yeah, possibly it does.
39:20But I just think the shortage at right-back means probably someone's got to stay.
39:25We'll see how that develops.
39:28Just to throw another one at you, Phil,
39:29do you think Roosan might be one to watch just if Sunderland do secure those couple of attacks?
39:33Obviously, Mundell's ahead of him, Isidor's come in.
39:36It's a potential one, isn't it?
39:38Yeah, I think that's definitely a possibility.
39:41I'd be surprised if Sunderland cut their losses and let him go permanently at this point.
39:45I think it's a bit too soon to do that, I think.
39:48But a loan one's definitely a good one because I think in a scenario where there's two strikes come in
39:53and Mienders becomes, you know, Invert Commons' third-choice striker
39:56and he's getting minutes every now and then and playing a bit from the bench,
39:59I think that's fine for where he is in his development.
40:01And I think the opportunity to work every day on the training pitch with Lebris
40:05and with the first-team players, I think that's a really good sort of place for him to be.
40:10I don't see how that works in any way, shape or form for Roosan.
40:12You know, Roosan is 25, he's a senior footballer.
40:15He's an established senior footballer.
40:17So he needs to play.
40:19I have to say that I think Roosan has done a job.
40:21Every time he's come off the bench this season.
40:23And I think on Saturday, he was really effective.
40:25He really put himself about. He was a nuisance.
40:28He did two players running, which was very useful given it's 100 out of 10.
40:31So I don't think there's like it or Roosan needs to go.
40:34That's definitely not the case. But I think the reality is if someone signed two strikers,
40:39I just don't think he's going to get many, if any, minutes.
40:42Lebris at his press conference last Thursday said he didn't see him as a winger at all.
40:46So he's not an option in that position.
40:48So if he's the fourth choice striker, he's potentially not going to get any minutes.
40:52And it just doesn't work for Sunderland because his value just depreciates in that scenario.
40:56And it certainly doesn't work for Roosan as a 25-year-old, you know,
40:59footballer with a lot of senior appearances to his name.
41:02So yeah, I think that is definitely one to watch in the latter stages of the window
41:07if Sunderland get the business done that they want to do.
41:10Again, that formula that I spoke to about at the very start of the podcast is the relevant one.
41:15If Sunderland see a huge winger option, they might go for that.
41:18And that might mean they only bring one striker in,
41:20in which case, you know, you probably want to keep Roosan.
41:23But I think that's a really good point.
41:24I think that's a massive, sort of really interesting one to watch.
41:30Okay, I think that's probably all we've got time for this week, lads.
41:33Join us again next week on the Raw podcast.
41:35In the meantime, keep up to date with all of the latest Sunderland news on the Sunderland
41:40especially across deadline day as well.
41:42Thanks to James. Thanks to Phil.
41:44Thanks to you for watching or listening at home.
41:48And we will see you again next week.