Sunderland transfer latest amid £12.6m Frigan links and Wilson's woes vs Burnley
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunland Echo.
00:24My name is Jason Jones, joined by James Copley and Phil Smith.
00:27This week, we're back up to a full contingent and we're going to need it as well because
00:31there's plenty of stuff to be discussed and plenty of action on the field, plenty of action
00:35in the transfer market as well.
00:36We're going to start at Burnley on Friday night, 0-0 draw for Sunland at Turf Moor.
00:42Obviously Phil, a game that ended in really difficult circumstances for Sunderland, given
00:47those two missed penalties.
00:49I'm just sort of interested to get your thoughts on the match as a whole, because were there
00:53signs of positivity in there as well?
00:56Yeah, definitely.
00:57I think it was a weird one, sort of once the dust had settled a little bit on the game,
01:02try to make a bit of sense of it and I think probably there were contrasts in emotions
01:07in terms of, as you alluded to there, because of the way the game ended, an absolute understanding
01:13that this could have been a massive night in the promotion race in a negative sense.
01:17I think for Burnley to get out of that game with a point, the way they handled it could
01:23be huge for them and for Sunderland, obviously, you don't get many opportunities to land a
01:28direct blow on your rivals, especially away from home very often.
01:31So you did come away with that fear that it could be a night that we look back at the
01:35end of the season and say that was massive, that was a really huge moment in Sunderland
01:39potentially not making the top two.
01:41And yet I had this really positive emotion of just how well, after the opening exchanges
01:47when Burnley were clearly dominant, how well Sunderland had played.
01:50They hadn't just competed by putting everyone behind the ball and being really dogged and
01:54putting in a big shift and stuff.
01:57They looked every bit as good as a footballing team as Burnley did for the last hour of the
02:02game.
02:03And by the end of the game, they were the only team who looked like scoring a goal.
02:07So I think I'm trying to be positive and take from the fact that surely inside that dressing
02:11room they must be looking at each other going, now we can beat anyone at this level.
02:16We can outplay anyone at this level and hope that the confidence I take from that outweighs
02:22the sort of the blow, if you like, of how the game actually ended.
02:27It's something that Phil just sort of alluded to there, James, but again, we sort of come
02:30out of a top of the table clash involved in Sunderland in which they have more than proven
02:37that they are capable of going to tour with, tour to tour rather, with anybody in this
02:41division.
02:43Yeah, I think that second half was really pleasing.
02:46I think Sunderland had four corners to Burnley's one, 12 shots to four, nine shots in the box
02:52compared to Burnley's three.
02:54I think they had five big chances, hit the woodwork once and obviously those two penalties
02:59as well.
03:00I thought in the opening exchanges Burnley did quite well in the first half and I was
03:04a little bit worried, but it was pleasing to see how Sunderland sort of managed to bend
03:08the game to the will.
03:09I agree with Phil, it is a little bit of an opportunity missed.
03:12I do think though that four points from Burnley this season is not a bad return and more generally,
03:20if you look at Sunderland versus teams in the top six currently, they've taken 12 points,
03:24which is a more than healthy return and they still have Blackburn Rovers, Middlesbrough
03:29and Leeds United to come.
03:31So I think that's all to play for.
03:32A couple of those games are away and Burrett and Leeds, they're very, very, very hard games.
03:37So we'll have to see what happens.
03:39But I was encouraged by the performance against Burnley, but I think it is one of those whereby
03:48if Sunderland go and beat Derby and Plymouth, we'll look back at this Burnley point as one
03:53gained.
03:54However, if Sunderland slip up in one or both of those games, you're looking back at it
03:59as a real opportunity missed.
04:00I don't think anything is decided against Burnley away.
04:03It would have been a statement, but there's just still so much to play for and Sunderland
04:06is still in touching distance.
04:08A lot of the big six have to play each other as well.
04:11So I understand the frustrations around the game 100%, but I think it is a good point,
04:16although a slight opportunity missed as well.
04:21And just a word on Wilson Isidore, Phil, obviously stepped up and took both penalties on Friday
04:26night, both penalties saved and it has to be said, saved well by James Trafford.
04:30They weren't necessarily poor penalties and I know that's something that Reduced Libris
04:34sort of alluded to in his post-match comments, but where does he go from here now, Wilson?
04:40Because obviously it's such a huge disappointment for him to personally have to absorb, but
04:46do you see him bouncing back from that pretty quickly?
04:49I think so.
04:50I think we could all see how devastated he was at the end of the game.
04:53That's obviously going to take its toll, but I get the impression from Isidore that he's
04:57a pretty big character and I think he'll probably bounce back in a positive sense.
05:01I think it was almost like the life of a striker really, you know, you're defined by what happens
05:07in the box, aren't you?
05:08Because I thought, by and large, Isidore produced a really good performance on Friday.
05:13I think that I wasn't overly impressed by Burnley in a lot of phases of the game, given
05:17the quality that they have, but the one thing I did think was that their two centre-afts
05:21and their goalkeeper were outstanding, especially Esteve, I think he's a brilliant defender
05:26and actually you can see why Burnley are where they are, because it's clear they don't concede
05:29many goals because they've got two brilliant centre-afts and a good goalkeeper.
05:33I thought Isidore was excellent.
05:35I thought he gave them a real fright, ran his socks off, never stopped running, showed
05:40bits of quality at times.
05:43So I'm pretty confident that Isidore will bounce back in the right way.
05:47The thing that we've always said about Isidore since he arrived is that you know what you're
05:50going to get as a minimum from Isidore and that is a huge shift.
05:54He'll never stop running, he'll cause the defenders nightmares.
05:57The happy bonus so far is that he's also found a way to chip in with goals and I'm
06:01pretty sure that will continue.
06:02So I don't have a huge amount of concern about Isidore to be honest.
06:07I think it's good that there's a game tomorrow, I think it's good for him just to get back
06:11out on the pitch and start again and doesn't have to dwell on it too long.
06:14I think he's going to be a pretty big player.
06:16The harder thing for Sunderland is what they do with penalties next year, isn't it?
06:20Because Isidore has got a brilliant penalty scoring record in his career.
06:25That's why he was the one who took over after Roberts missed the last one.
06:29I think you have to give Trafford some credit because the preparation was obviously really
06:32good and as you mentioned, although Isidore didn't find the corner with either of his
06:36efforts, they were really powerfully struck, especially the first one.
06:41Pretty impressive reflexes from Trafford.
06:42So I don't know what on earth Sunderland do next time they win a penalty.
06:45I'm glad that's not my job to work that out but I don't really have any major concerns
06:50about Isidore to be honest moving forward.
06:52I think there's a reason why he's a centre forward.
06:55I think he's got the personality for it and I wouldn't be surprised if he scores at least
06:59one goal this week to be honest.
07:03Obviously hindsight is a wonderful thing, James.
07:07Wilson stepping up and taking a second penalty against Trafford, I mean, obviously he didn't
07:13score so you can't necessarily say it was the right decision but do you understand the
07:17reasoning behind him being the man to step up again and trying to score that second penalty?
07:22I do, yeah, and it's purely outcome based, isn't it, our analysis of it because he missed
07:27the second penalty so obviously it was the wrong decision.
07:29It doesn't mean it couldn't have been the right decision.
07:32We've seen precedent for this at Sunderland over the years.
07:36Against Burnley actually, David Connolly at the Stadium of Light, he stepped up, missed
07:39one.
07:40Burnley went 2-1 up and then everyone remembers Carlos Edwards's fantastic goal but Connolly
07:45actually stepped up to take a second penalty and scored.
07:48I think Darren Bent missed two in one game and scored one against Tottenham at the Stadium
07:53of Light.
07:54That was the Bolo's ending game.
07:55It's bizarre, it does happen.
07:57I've got no issue with him stepping up to the second one.
08:00I think if it goes in everyone's hailing him as a hero and commenting about the guts and
08:05the bravery.
08:06I was just gutted for him at the end of the game.
08:07He was visibly upset, he looked to be close to tears if not in tears.
08:11I thought it was wonderful how Sunderland's squad rallied around him.
08:14I thought it was really classy of the Burnley player, Forster, to go over and console him.
08:20I think the reaction from the away end was largely positive though, wasn't it?
08:23I think that's a really good barometer.
08:25Sunderland are going to need Wilson Isidor towards the back end of the season.
08:29He's proven himself as a good player, he's the club's top scorer.
08:32Some of the vitriol online, the less said about that the better, but it was heartening
08:36to see a lot of people rally around him.
08:39We've spoken, haven't we, Phil and Jase, about Isidor and his arrival to the club and how
08:46genuine he's been.
08:48When he first arrived in he was saying all of his stuff about wanting to score 15 goals
08:51and modelling his game off Thierry Henry and Sunderland being the biggest club in the North
08:55East.
08:56You are cynical and you do take it with a little bit of a pinch of salt, maybe he's
09:00just trying to get the fans on side, but having met him a couple of times and watched his
09:04interviews he's just that sort of character, he loves it.
09:08He's really bought into Sunderland.
09:10That's lovely to see.
09:11We've had a lot of players over the years who haven't bought into Sunderland, the likes
09:16of Dillabongi, Darren Gibson, N'Dong, all of these players from that ill-fated Premier
09:22League era who didn't do much for Sunderland at all and deserved all of the criticism in
09:28the world that they got and Wilson Isidor is not one of those players.
09:31So yes, let's criticise him missing two penalties against Birmingham, that's absolutely fair
09:36enough, but we're going to need him, he's a good player and he knows that, but I think
09:42it's just time to move on and support him.
09:44I think actually it's interesting to sort of, on a wider debate, have Sunderland's coaching
09:51staff been strong enough about penalties this season because Jack Clarke was the penalty
09:56taker wasn't he?
09:57He left so it sort of just got passed to Roberts in terms of him being the most senior player.
10:03He then missed one and then Isidor has come in, so it doesn't feel like there's been
10:07too much of a plan, maybe I'm being uber-critical there, but perhaps that's something that could
10:12be ironed out a bit more.
10:15There was a meeting after Roberts missed the last one and Isidor became the penalty taker
10:20because obviously he wasn't at the club when Roberts took the first penalty of the season
10:24and Roberts scored it, so that's how he got the second one.
10:27It was something that was, well, I asked in the next press conference we had, I asked
10:31Lebris and he said there would be a meeting.
10:34So I'm pretty sure that what subsequently happened was Isidor was put on penalties.
10:38Isidor's taken penalties in his youth career, he's taken penalties in his senior career.
10:42As far as I'm aware, he's never missed one.
10:45So I think that, to be honest, I have absolutely no issue with Isidor taking the first two
10:51penalties on Friday night.
10:52I think it was the right decision, I think it makes sense with his record.
10:54As I said, you've got to give Trafford a lot of quality for his preparation and also having
10:58the skill to back up the preparation to make the saves.
11:01I do think it's clearly something they're going to have to have another conversation
11:04about, isn't it, as a group?
11:05Yeah, absolutely.
11:06Is Wilson still happy to do it?
11:09If not, do we have a better option?
11:10Who else is happy to do it?
11:13So yeah, I do think, I agree with you, I think it was something that for a while had just
11:17sort of stumbled along.
11:18So I don't know if you remember, but the start of last season, obviously Ahmad and Ross Stewart
11:22went and basically the dressing room decided whoever won a penalty could take it.
11:27So that was how Clarke became Sunderland's penalty taker last season, he kept scoring
11:30them so you just don't touch it, do you?
11:32And then obviously once Clarke went, we stumbled into Roberts a bit and fair play to Roberts,
11:36he scored the first one.
11:37So I do think that actually, for the first time, there may actually have been a discussion
11:41where Wilson became the club's penalty taker, but it's clearly something they're going to
11:45have to double-check again.
11:47Personally, I would let Isidore have the next one if he wants it, but that's just my opinion.
11:51It depends who else in the squad is potentially prepared to do it.
11:55But yeah, I think you have to, it wasn't just total chance Isidore taking a penalty, it's
12:00something he's done in his career and he's done it well.
12:04They need to have the old ill-fated penalty competition in training, don't they?
12:10That's my style.
12:13So we haven't done well for England over the years.
12:16Famously, famously.
12:18Obviously another big talking point as well, Phil, Enzo Laffey made his Sunderland debut.
12:24I mean, what did you make of his performance?
12:27Yeah, to be honest, to a degree, it was kind of what I expected.
12:30I think it was going to be really difficult for him on the left wing against a team of
12:34Burnley's quality in a game where Sunderland weren't going to dominate possession.
12:38I don't think he was ever going to produce a 10 out of 10 performance.
12:42And I think the first half, naturally, because Burnley were on top for most of it, he spent
12:47most of his game doing defensive work, which meant that we didn't see the best of him.
12:50But, and some Dan Neil mentioned afterwards, which I thought was spot on, was like, it's
12:55a really big tick that he just went out on the left wing.
12:58He helped circling out.
12:59He dug in for the team.
13:00He got through his defensive work.
13:01I think that tells you a lot of good stuff about his attitude.
13:04And then the second half, there were a few more flashes.
13:06I mean, I think that sort of run and pass to Isidor was like a genuine, obviously press
13:11boxes in the sort of Burnley stands and there were genuine sort of gasps when he went past
13:15Roberts and then when people had realised he'd found Isidor, that was just a moment
13:19of total class.
13:21So really, really exciting, albeit, you know, it wasn't a particularly headline grabbing
13:25performance.
13:26I think we'll see more of his quality when someone are dominating the ball.
13:31You know, I'm looking at Plymouth coming to the Stadium Night on Saturday.
13:34Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I imagine they're going to defend pretty deep.
13:38And that's when we're going to need players like Lefebvre to show that bit of quality.
13:42So without it being like a sensational debut, I thought there was like quietly a lot of
13:47very encouraging signs in the way he applied himself.
13:51And also exciting, James, to, you know, he's producing those sort of passes and those moments
13:56of brilliance from the left flank.
13:58But when he's playing in his more natural position, it's sort of doubly exciting to
14:02imagine what he might be able to do when he's in a more familiar sort of birth.
14:06Yeah, I need a shout out, my friend Adam actually, Adam Rieke, because he said to me leading
14:12up to the game, oh, I think Lebris will play Lefebvre on the left-hand side of attack.
14:16And I actually called him an idiot.
14:17I said, nah, that won't happen.
14:18He's going straight to the middle.
14:20And then I looked around, idiot, when the team sheet dropped.
14:22Not for the first time, not for the last time either.
14:24But yeah, I thought he was very tidy.
14:27I thought, you know, when he went down the left in the first half and skied that cross
14:31well over the bar, you were a little bit worried.
14:34But yeah, just very tidy.
14:35And for a player who hasn't been at the club that long, I thought it was encouraging.
14:40He's going to obviously develop alongside his teammates, those little connections, those
14:44little links that Lebris likes to mention.
14:46So often, that pass for Wilson Isidor, as Phil mentions, it was breathtaking.
14:51But yeah, looking forward to seeing him more.
14:54I'm really interested to see where he plays now, actually, against Derby and Plymouth
14:59and sort of coming into the championship running, because you would suspect he goes into the
15:04middle at some point.
15:05But who drops out, I don't know.
15:08So that's an interesting one to keep an eye on, I think.
15:12And one last quick word on the Burnley game, Phil.
15:15Slight injury concern for Chris Mepham.
15:17Is there any sort of update on that at the moment?
15:20Not particularly.
15:21Other than it wasn't cramp, it was a pain in his hamstring, which is kind of like the
15:26words you never want to hear, obviously.
15:28But we don't know at the moment the severity of it.
15:30So I'd be reluctant to sort of speculate too much, especially because we'll speak to Lebris
15:34this afternoon and it's pretty dire.
15:36We've pressed conference, so anyone watching and listening, hop over to the Echo website
15:40later this afternoon and we should have a bit more detail on that.
15:43But it's never a good sign.
15:45You knew straight away, you know, he didn't even get any treatment.
15:48He just left the pitch to go and sort of get treated.
15:50So we knew straight away there was an issue.
15:53So I would suggest my amateur sports science would be that doesn't look great for the couple
15:57of games this week.
15:58But in terms of whether it's anything more significant than that, we'll have to wait
16:03and see, I think, until this afternoon.
16:06What a thoroughly professional and smooth plug that was, by the way, Phil.
16:10That was excellent.
16:11Well, it's true, isn't it?
16:13It's pointless to be speculating.
16:14People can get it from the great man Lebris himself in just a few hours, so yeah.
16:22Another thing I'm sure you're going to be sort of tentatively picking his brains about
16:25as well are transfers, lots of transfer speculation at the moment on Wearside.
16:31One name that is being increasingly linked in with a decent amount of ferocity is Mattia
16:36Friggen.
16:37The KVC Vestalore striker.
16:40I mean, do we have any sort of update on where that stands at the moment?
16:46Not a huge amount for me personally, other than to say that he is a name that I've been
16:50aware of in previous windows.
16:52He's definitely something that's one of those players that's summoned of light for a long
16:55time and by all accounts is having his sort of best season yet.
17:00So I think there's an obvious, people can join the dots there, that there's an obvious
17:04sort of strength to those reports.
17:07From what I can gather, he is quite versatile as well, which is definitely something we
17:10know appeals to Sunderland.
17:12My feeling going into this window was that Sunderland would very much target Championship
17:18experience players.
17:19Now, I know people will say, well, Enzo Lefevre never played in the Championship, but as I
17:22think Lebris has explained in quite a lot of detail, they felt he was a bit of an exception
17:26to the rule because he knew the formation and the system and the head coach so well
17:31that it didn't feel like that much of a punt.
17:36But I think the reality is that, as we're seeing, the competition for a small group
17:40of Championship experience strikers is so fierce that I think Sunderland are probably
17:44having to be realistic and look at alternative options as well.
17:47I think it's fairly clear from the report and over the weekend that Ben Berut and Diaz
17:51and Tom Cannon will almost certainly both go to Sheffield United.
17:57Berut and Diaz, he wanted the Sheffield United move for personal reasons.
18:00He played there last season.
18:01He knows Chris Wilder.
18:02It's an environment he feels settled in.
18:05With Tom Cannon, it looks, although it's not confirmed yet, it looks as if Sheffield
18:10United are paying a big fee now, whereas, as we know, Sunderland prefer sort of a loan
18:14to buy in the event of promotion.
18:15So I think that the pool of sort of Championship proven forwards is getting smaller every day,
18:22I think it's fair to say.
18:24So I think the frigging one is definitely one to watch.
18:26But as I know James reported this morning, he did play for Vestavol last night, he came
18:31off the bench.
18:32So I think that gives you an indication that he's probably not going to be on a plane this
18:36morning to sign for Sunderland.
18:37So we'll have to wait and see how that one shakes out.
18:41And obviously, James, we will see how it pans out.
18:44But if we take the sort of reports that are coming from the continent at the moment, there's
18:48having some sort of grain of truth to them, it sounds as if there might be a fairly hefty
18:52fee attached to Friggen if he does come through the door of Sadio Mane.
18:57Yeah, it's interesting, the reports from his Belgian club, Vestalo, I think they'd quite
19:01like to cash in and make some money on him.
19:05And it seems to be an issue, or the talks seem to be ongoing regarding that fee and
19:11basically when it comes and how it comes.
19:13There's obviously, it's been mooted that there would be an obligation to buy if Sunderland
19:17got promoted.
19:18I think Vestalo would like to have some money in the event that they didn't get promoted,
19:22whether Sunderland would still want to do that deal financially for a cut price while
19:25they were still in the Championship.
19:27I don't know.
19:28We've spoken about it before, Jason, that we're throwing it ahead a bit now.
19:33But if Sunderland did get promoted to the Premier League or did have multiple agreements
19:39in place to sign players at the end of the season, then you are actually sort of account
19:43for a lot of your budget already, aren't you?
19:45Now, Sunderland seem to be stepping up the transfer business a little bit, which is good.
19:49But you do have to be a little bit careful, don't you, not to hamstring yourselves over
19:55proceedings.
19:56Just thinking of Hull City, actually, who are near the bottom of the Championship, they
20:00sort of seemingly overextended themselves a bit, didn't they?
20:02Stoke City, over the years, spent a lot of money.
20:06Now they can't due to the rules.
20:07They could potentially change, but you have to play the field in front of you.
20:11Whilst it's good that Sunderland are prepared to spend money, I'm not disputing that at
20:15all.
20:16I think that's probably why we're seeing a little bit of caution and a little bit of
20:19negotiation around this deal, is that does it work properly and does it work financially
20:25in the long term?
20:26And that has to be weighed up, of course, against the prospect of promotion this season
20:31as well, which would bring a lot of money into the club.
20:33So I think it's a balancing act and a tightrope, and I don't envy the decision-makers at all.
20:40Obviously, like Phil was saying, you know, Cannon and Bert and Diaz both looking as if
20:44they're going to end up at Bramall Lane.
20:46I mean, does that represent almost a double blow to Sunderland in the sense that not only
20:51are they looking as if they're going to be able to land those two reported targets, but
20:56also that they're going to a major promotion rival this January?
21:00Yeah, I mean, it's only a blow if they do well and Sheffield United get promoted ahead
21:06of Sunderland, isn't it?
21:07So I think, again, it's outcome-based.
21:09You absolutely have to see.
21:11Tom Cannon's a player I liked.
21:14You know, reports were that he was sort of prepared to come to Sunderland as well, but
21:17Leicester have favoured that bid from Sheffield United.
21:20Obviously, they're under new ownership.
21:23So Chris Wilder's quite encouraged that they're going to spend a little bit of cash.
21:26The Berrett and Diaz one, although there were sort of links there, it did always feel like
21:30his preferred destination was always going to be Sheffield United.
21:32He spent time on loan there last season, didn't he, under Chris Wilder.
21:36So it always felt like that one was a little bit unlikely.
21:39I think the Tom Cannon one is unfortunate because, obviously, Sunderland have been a
21:42fan of him for quite a while and scored a couple of times against Sunderland as well.
21:46I think he would have been sort of a great option to have up there with Wilson Isidor.
21:52But I think there are still options out there in the market, but as Phil mentions, you know,
21:58time ticks away quickly in January and before you know it, it'll be deadline day.
22:02Whether Sunderland have that striker in before then is another matter.
22:06It would be being another Kiefer Moore situation where we're all waiting for him to sign,
22:11but it doesn't happen. He goes somewhere else.
22:12That's the situation we want to avoid, isn't it, really?
22:14Because Ipswich managed to get promoted off the back of that.
22:17Now, I'm not saying Kiefer Moore would have fired Sunderland to the playoffs or promotion,
22:21because, you know, that was a Michael Beale side at the time.
22:25And then what happened afterwards with Mike Jones.
22:27But I'd imagine he certainly would have helped Sunderland's season.
22:30So, yeah, let's see what happens.
22:33But I think it's encouraging that Sunderland seem to be shopping in a slightly,
22:39what's the best way to say it, a pool above what they have been,
22:42in a sense that they're looking at championship-ready players or players with a lot of experience
22:46and players that can sort of come in and immediately help the squad.
22:49You know, those developmental signings, if they're there to be done, like a Romain Mundell last January,
22:54if something like that could be done, then fantastic.
22:57But I think it's good that Sunderland are pressing ahead with the needs of the team now, actually.
23:03And in terms of other positions, Phil, obviously, we heard Lebris say in the wake of Adi Elisa's injury blow
23:10that, you know, Sunderland were potentially one defender away from being, you know, in a bit of a problem.
23:16Obviously, without speculating on the Chris Mepham situation too much,
23:21if he is going to be out for a period of time,
23:23could you then foresee Sunderland potentially going back into the market and maybe bringing in a little bit more cover?
23:30Yeah, potentially, I think they might have to.
23:31As you say, it depends on the extent of Mepham's injury.
23:34I think if it's not a hugely serious one, they'll just try and wait it out.
23:38But I think that, you know, if he is out for a period of time, I think they will.
23:42I think they'll have to because the logic so far this season, and so far, to be fair,
23:45as far as it's been brought out, is that we've all said, you know, there's a lack of full-back cover.
23:51You know, and Sunderland have very much seen Luke O'Neill as the full-back cover
23:54because they feel he can play either full-back position very well.
23:57But if Mepham's out for a long time, then O'Neill becomes one of your two main centre-halves,
24:02which means that you then have literally no full-back cover with Alesi out,
24:06apart from Leo Yelder on the left side, but obviously nothing on the right side.
24:10So, for me, I think if we're serious about Sunderland trying to win promotion this season,
24:14I think it would be too big a risk not to bring another defender in, you know, if Mepham is out for a period of time.
24:21And in terms of outgoings, James, obviously one of the defensive options that the Brits had available to him
24:27was young Zach Johnson. He's gone out on loan to Notts County.
24:31I mean, what do you make of that move? It feels like a good step for him this week.
24:36Yeah, definitely needed to go out and get some game time.
24:40We spoke to Zach Johnson at Bloomfield Road in pre-season, and I was hugely impressed with his mentality, really.
24:47We asked him, me and Nick Barnes from the BBC, asked him about, you know, regular game time,
24:52and he came out and said, look, I want to play, I need to be playing.
24:55He's obviously had experience at Hartlepool United and then a really good loan at Dundalk in Ireland as well.
25:02So, I imagine he's been sort of frustrated at the lack of first-team opportunities,
25:08whilst understanding that there's some very good defenders in Sunderland's squad and they've been flying high in the league.
25:13He's obviously a Sunderland fan, so I'm sure he's enjoyed being around the environment.
25:15But I think the loan to Notts County, it just offers that chance to get some regular experience in the AFL,
25:22which he actually hasn't had yet because Hartlepool are in the National League, obviously, Dundalk and Ireland.
25:26So, I think it's a move that makes sense.
25:28I thought he did well when he came on against Stoke City in the FA Cup the other week,
25:33and, you know, a very disjointed back line towards the end, but I thought Zach Johnson did OK.
25:40So, this will just allow him to sort of get up to speed and then Sunderland can reassess.
25:45And I think it's good that Sunderland don't stand in the way of these loans when they need to be done.
25:50Obviously, you could argue that Sunderland are looking a bit slim defensively now with the injury to Chris Metham,
25:57but I don't think there's any point really keeping Zach Johnson around just to be a squad player till the end of the season,
26:03because it would have taken a large, large injury crisis for him to be starting the game.
26:07So, I think it's just a move that works best for everybody.
26:10And hopefully he does well.
26:12And, you know, he's got some good pedigree.
26:14He's played for England's youth sides before.
26:17So, yeah, looking forward to seeing how he gets on.
26:21And the other player who's left the stadium alight since we last spoke, Phil, is Aaron Connolly.
26:25Obviously, he joined the club as a free agent in September, scored just the one goal that came against Millwall.
26:31And now he's gone to Millwall to link up with former Sunderland boss Alex Neil.
26:35I mean, what do you make of that whole situation?
26:40Yeah, I was a little bit surprised by how quickly it happened.
26:44I think, you know, we spoke to Lebris, I can't remember after which game it was, possibly the Norwich game.
26:50No, the Portsmouth game, sorry, which was another game that I think he hadn't played in or if he had only for a few minutes off the bench.
26:57And that was when Lebris sort of first floated the idea that they would be having discussions with Connolly
27:02and sort of raised the possibility of him leaving, which I think came as a surprise to all of us at the time.
27:06I think it's just a decision, really, that's been in the best interest of the player that's been put first.
27:12And I think that's absolutely right in Connolly's situation.
27:15Obviously, when he first signed for the club, he spoke really bravely and really candidly about what he'd been through over the last year or so
27:22and sort of the place he's got himself into now to sign for Sunderland.
27:26And I think that Sunderland have just been, well, Lebris especially, have just been really honest with Connolly and just saying,
27:31look, you know, you aren't going to get past Isidore and Mienda.
27:35And, you know, we are trying to sign another striker.
27:38And I think Connolly's put himself, looked at it and said, well, I've got six months left of my deal here.
27:43I need to be playing because he's got his long-term future to be thinking about.
27:46You can't afford to become a free agent in the summer, having not played again for, you know, eight months.
27:50So I think it's one that he pushed for, not because he was unhappy or frustrated, just because I think he understood the situation.
27:58So while it's a little bit risky at the moment, because obviously Sunderland haven't signed a striker yet,
28:03I think they've done right by him and let him go.
28:05And I think, you know, Connolly's left in the right way, hasn't he?
28:08I thought his message was really classy last week when he left.
28:10And I think everyone associated with Sunderland radio just wish him the best and hopefully he can kick-start his career now at Millwall.
28:19Yeah, I mean, would you echo that, James?
28:21Obviously, it didn't quite work out for him on Weah's side,
28:23but, you know, full kudos to the way that he came out and spoke when he initially joined the club.
28:28And by and large, I think it's fair to say he's been a positive presence on Weah's side.
28:32Yeah, wish him well. I think the way everybody's handled it has been fantastic.
28:36Again, it's good to see that Sunderland won't stand in players' ways unnecessarily.
28:41I think that's a real positive of the club and a real selling point of the club, actually.
28:45But yeah, you'll have to ask me that if it's a good decision when he plays against Sunderland at the stadium of right for Millwall.
28:54And we'll see how that goes.
28:55So, yeah, I might be fuming with it in a couple of months' time.
29:00Finally, we'll sort of take a look at a few of the names that have been repeatedly mentioned as potential exits this month.
29:06Is there any sort of movement, Phil, on the likes of, you know, Adewa St Bennett and Abdullah Barre,
29:11obviously in Adil Ashish now as well, because we saw him drop out of the side for Enzo Laffey on Friday.
29:16Are there any sort of indications that any of those players could be moving on over the coming weeks?
29:22Yeah, I think Barre and Bennett and Sunderland are sort of actively pursuing that and the players are.
29:28Sorry about that. With Ashish, I'm not convinced Ashish will go.
29:33And if he does, it would be right at the very end of the window, because I think that Watson and Mundell are still a couple of weeks away.
29:40And although I fell for him on Friday because it was harsh for him not to be in the team because he's played well.
29:45But I still think he's got a role to play in a three-game week.
29:48I don't see Laffey playing 90 minutes three times off the left, you know what I mean?
29:52So I still think Ashish has got a big part to play.
29:56What's been very obvious over the last few weeks is that he's not pushing to leave Sunderland, like he's not trying to find a move.
30:03The ideal scenario for him is he wants to play his way into the team.
30:07Now, obviously, if it gets to the end of the month and he feels as if he's fourth or fifth choice out on the left wing,
30:12then he might have the decision almost taken out of his hands.
30:14But for now, you never know in football, things can change quickly.
30:18But I don't envisage any quick movement on that, I think.
30:21If anything happens, and I think that's a big if, it'll be right at the end of the month.
30:26And another one as well, obviously, Nazari Bruce.
30:29And it's kind of felt as if he is destined to maybe find a fresh challenge elsewhere, James.
30:35But obviously, with Conor Lee leaving and with suggestions that Sunderland are probably going to bring in one more striker,
30:40do you think that there's an element of him almost having to stick around for the time being so that they have that cover if it is needed?
30:48I think so. I would imagine that if slash when Sunderland sign a striker, particularly if he can play on the left side,
30:55which is what's been mooted, isn't it?
30:57Then I imagine the door will be open for Bruce to go.
31:00Just one of those that hasn't worked out.
31:02Obviously, people forget as well.
31:03I think he joined the club in pretty trying circumstances for him.
31:06He was over here for a long time by himself without his young family, who I think were still home in Ukraine,
31:13obviously, with the problems with Russia there as well.
31:17So, he's never really managed to get a run, has he?
31:20Obviously, he did score a couple of goals.
31:22But it's sort of a casualty of Sunderland's managerial merry-go-round as well.
31:27Last season, obviously, with Mowbray and then Magdodds, then Beale and Magdodds, it was hard for any of those players to get any sort of continuity.
31:35Sunderland now just appear to have moved on slightly in terms of team selection, obviously, with the emergence of Mundell and Watson.
31:43I know they're injured at the moment, but it just doesn't really seem to have worked for him.
31:47It was always going to be hard for him to get in on the left over Jack Clarke when he was at the club.
31:52So, I think, yeah, one of those where it's best for all parties that he probably moves on at some point.
31:58When that is, I don't know, but I would imagine common sense that it would be after Sunderland signed a left-sided attacker.
32:07And I think, you know, we didn't really think Adil Al-Shish was a winger or a left-sided attacker, did we?
32:13We thought of him more as a central midfield player or a number 10.
32:18And the fact that he was given the nod at left wing over Roussempf probably speaks to where Le Brice's mind is.
32:25Although Le Brice has said a couple of times that he actually likes the player, doesn't he?
32:28And he has trusted him to bring him on towards the end of games.
32:31But, yeah, he hasn't started the game under Le Brice.
32:34I don't think Roussempf has. Phil might correct me on that.
32:37But I don't think he started the game in the league under Le Brice.
32:41Certainly not the league.
32:42No, I can't remember if he started against Preston, but definitely not in the league.
32:46And I think, to be honest, I think, like, yeah, I think it is time for Roussempf to move on.
32:51Because I think the other thing as well is, like, I did wonder.
32:55I did think Roussempf was a bit of an odd sign in the net.
32:57He seemed like very much, he's got a lot of good qualities.
33:01His work rate, his athleticism.
33:03Didn't really feel like it fit Sunderland's style of play last season, especially under Mowbray.
33:07You know, that very sort of technical build-up.
33:10Actually, what we've seen in recent weeks from Le Brice, when Mienda and Isidoro have played, a lot more direct, a lot more counter-attacking.
33:16To be honest, I think that style should really suit Roussempf.
33:18Like, when I watch him and what I think his skills are.
33:21And I think the fact that it hasn't happened, even despite that slight shift, I think probably tells you it isn't going to happen.
33:27But I think, Jason, I think your instincts are probably right.
33:30I think Sunderland might say, look, you know, you can absolutely go out and get some minutes on loan and we'll review it in the summer.
33:35But let's get, you know, let's get our striker in first and then we'll feel comfortable in letting you do that.
33:42OK, lovely stuff.
33:44That's all we've got time for on this week's show.
33:46Join us again next week when we'll be discussing all of the latest Sunderland news and developments.
33:50Meantime, follow all the latest Black Cats news on the Sunderland Echo.
33:53You can give us a follow on social media as well.
33:56Thanks to James. Thanks to Phil.
33:58Thanks to you for listening. We'll see you next week.