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00:00Well, for more analysis on this, we can bring in Reid Brodie, who's a war crimes prosecutor
00:05and the author of To Catch a Dictator.
00:08Thank you very much for speaking to us on France 24.
00:10You're welcome.
00:11I wanted to start, you know, we've been hearing that there's very little that can be done
00:18if Ulaanbaatar doesn't comply with this arrest warrant.
00:22Can you explain the legal reasons for this?
00:25Sure.
00:26I mean, Mongolia is a state party to the International Criminal Court.
00:33That means that it has an obligation to cooperate with the court.
00:41Let's remember that the court does not have a police force.
00:47It relies on state cooperation in order to enforce its warrants.
00:54And of course, if in 22 years the International Criminal Court has actually never, the prosecutors
01:02have never convicted any state official anywhere in the world, it's in large part because they're
01:10not able to capture them.
01:13But Mongolia has that obligation.
01:17And really by going to Mongolia and not being arrested, of course, Putin is thumbing his
01:25nose at the ICC.
01:27He's thumbing his nose at Ukraine.
01:29He's thumbing his nose at his many victims, especially the tens of thousands of deported
01:35Ukrainian children for which he has been indicted by the ICC.
01:40But I think he's also forcing Mongolia to be complicit in his impunity.
01:48You said that he's thumbing his nose at the court.
01:51Do you believe that it undermines how the ICC is viewed internationally by other countries
01:56as well?
01:57You know, I don't.
02:00First, I mean, Mongolia is a country I actually know well.
02:04Many years ago, I was invited to consult as it drafted its democratic constitution
02:09following the Soviet era.
02:12It's a democratic country.
02:14It's one of the very few countries in Asia that has ratified the ICC founding treaty.
02:21There's a Mongolian judge who was elected just last year to the ICC bench.
02:27Interestingly, just a few months ago, when the court was under attack for its actions
02:34in Israel and Gaza, Mongolia joined the statement by 94 ICC members declaring unwavering support
02:43for the ICC and calling on all members to ensure full cooperation with the court, the
02:49same cooperation that Mongolia is not providing right now.
02:53So it's obviously very disappointing to see Mongolia violate its obligations, undermine
03:00the ICC, undermine the rule of law and hand this victory to an accused war criminal.
03:06But as your setup said, you only have to look at the map to understand Mongolia's predicament.
03:13It's squeezed between Russia and China.
03:15It's got a 3500 kilometer border with Russia.
03:20It depends on Russia for virtually all of its energy imports.
03:23And as you said, it's had some brutal winters recently.
03:28But you know, South Africa, it's interesting because, I mean, in theory, Putin can only
03:33cannot visit countries that have ratified the ICC.
03:37There are 124 countries.
03:39Last year, Putin was supposed to visit South Africa, a country basically allied with Russia.
03:47South Africa, for a heads of state, for a heads of state summit, South Africa made it
03:55clear to Putin that he should not come.
03:58A high court in South Africa reminded the government that if Putin came, it would be
04:03obliged to arrest him.
04:05Of course, South Africa has a much greater leeway here.
04:09So I, to be honest, I think that Putin is doing this purposely, that, you know, he looks
04:15at the map, he looks at the weakest ICC country, and he says, I'm going to thumb my nose.
04:20I'm going to go there.
04:22Mongolia is not going to dare arrest me.
04:25And I have to, I have to believe that Mongolia is not happy with this situation.
04:29Right.
04:30Well, does this mean the ICC is toothless then when it comes to prosecuting state officials
04:37of things like war crimes, as you mentioned, you know, obviously, this isn't the first
04:41time that this has happened.
04:42One example that comes to mind is in 2015, when then Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir
04:48was in South Africa, but not handed over.
04:52What do you make of this?
04:53Well, that's absolutely right.
04:55I mean, to date, no state has ever transferred an official from another state to the ICC.
05:01So no state has ever done what we would hope and what Mongolia should be doing today.
05:07And as I said earlier, in 22 years, there's never been a single final conviction for serious
05:13crimes at the ICC against any state official at any level anywhere in the world, largely
05:20because the ICC is unable to get its hands on Bashir of Sudan, on Vladimir Putin.
05:28And this is certainly a weakness.
05:30I mean, the ICC depends on state cooperation.
05:34And if that state cooperation is not there, then the ICC's purpose, and let's remember
05:41that purpose, the ICC is there to prosecute the worst crimes in the world, genocide, crimes
05:50against humanity, war crimes.
05:52I mean, Vladimir Putin is indicted for the transfer of children from Ukraine, but he
05:59presumably will be indicted in the future.
06:01And he's human rights groups have abundantly documented many other war crimes, the bombing
06:08of civilian infrastructure, torture, prisoners, mistreatment of prisoners.
06:14This is why the ICC exists.
06:16And if states do not comply with their obligations, then it certainly undermines international.
06:22And I think that's exactly what Putin is trying to do here.
06:26He did not dare go to South Africa.
06:28He would not dare go to Japan or Korea, I believe, while they would not invite him.
06:36But poor Mongolia, I think he felt he could get away with it, and he obviously is getting
06:43away with it.
06:44And it's a tragedy.
06:45Right.
06:46So what could we expect the future implications to be for other international figures who
06:52are also the subject of ICC arrest warrants?
06:55We're jumping a bit too far into the future, but we know that warrants are sought for Benjamin
07:00Netanyahu and Yoav Galant from Israel.
07:05If these are issued, what could we expect from that?
07:09Well, again, I think, you know, this would implicate all the countries that have ratified
07:17the ICC treaty.
07:18I assume that if, let's say, Netanyahu, there's a warrant for his arrest.
07:25I don't think he would go to a Western country.
07:26I don't think Western countries would allow him in.
07:28I don't think that, I mean, countries that respect the rule of law, but also have the
07:35political weight to resist that.
07:38I think what Vladimir Putin is doing is he's testing that resistance.
07:41He's looking for the weak spots.
07:43You talked about Omar al-Bashir of Sudan, he tested the weak spots.
07:48I do think that it undermines the principle, but I do believe that if there are warrants
07:55against Benjamin Netanyahu and his defense minister, Yoav Galant, that it will circumscribe
08:02their world.
08:03It will make it impossible for them to visit rights-respecting countries that are willing
08:08to uphold their obligations.
08:11Again, the ICC relies, doesn't have a police force.
08:17It relies on the cooperation of states, and what we're seeing today is a dent in that
08:23cooperation.
08:24We're seeing an undermining of that rule of law, and hopefully it will not be repeated
08:31in other situations.
08:32All right, Reid Brodie, we're going to have to leave it there.
08:35You're a war crimes prosecutor and an author.
08:37Thank you very much for speaking to us.
08:40You're quite welcome.