In this compelling discussion, we deeply explore the profound impact of challenging family dynamics on individuals by sharing experiences of callers coping with manipulative and toxic relationships. Themes include vulnerabilities in relationships, the concept of sexual market value, childhood trauma, parental relationships, establishing moral boundaries, confronting past traumas, and seeking autonomy amid deceit and manipulation. Through poignant stories, reflections, and insights, we unravel the intricate layers of family relationships and the transformative journey towards healing, personal growth, and self-discovery in the face of adversities.
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https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022
Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!
NOW AVAILABLE FOR SUBSCRIBERS: MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING' - AND THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI AND AUDIOBOOK!
Also get the Truth About the French Revolution, the interactive multi-lingual philosophy AI trained on thousands of hours of my material, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!
See you soon!
https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022
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LearningTranscript
00:00:00Okay. Thank you very much. All right, where do we got to start?
00:00:05Well, you wanted the call. I'm happy to facilitate the topic that you want. So dive straight in.
00:00:12All right. Okay. So, yeah. So, I mean, about a year ago, I started in the men's behavior change program,
00:00:22which, unfortunately, is on the Duluth model. So I took a job in the integrated men's program,
00:00:32sort of thinking that I'll be helping men because obviously, you know, I'm a guy and, you know,
00:00:39been through it in my life and thought I'd be helping men. But, yeah, I was told sort of early on that
00:00:48it's not really for men, it's to help women and children as it relates to family violence.
00:00:57So it runs on the Duluth model. Are you familiar with the Duluth model?
00:01:03I am not.
00:01:05Okay. So the Duluth model runs on power and control. So it's kind of the standard model that runs through the police
00:01:15and subsequent social services as it relates to family violence.
00:01:21And unfortunately, it runs through the feminist lens as it relates to family violence.
00:01:30So it sort of relates it all to power and control and the patriarchy.
00:01:41I'm not sure what that would mean in terms of how things would play out in conflicts.
00:01:46Okay. So basically, most of the men who get referred through to my program were mostly are referrals from corrections.
00:01:55So they've had an incident with the police or through the courts. Some are self-referrals though as well.
00:02:05So generally speaking, as people get referred through to the program, they have to run through this model.
00:02:17It runs through the power and control. So generally speaking, it's always taken at the outset that the man is at fault as it relates to family violence,
00:02:33which is sometimes the case, but not always. So we kind of have to run through that frame.
00:02:40And most of the men that come through the program, generally, they engage with the material often as the victim.
00:02:51And it's difficult because we kind of have to reframe it because we sort of have to push back on blaming the victim, justification, and that sort of lens.
00:03:09Which makes things difficult. And a lot of men, it seems to be that, not a lot, but certainly a significant proportion have had a hard time as it relates to family courts and that sort of system.
00:03:31And ethically, it poses a problem for me because I'm not really allowed to engage with them on their side of things. I sort of always have to reframe it around about that they're the oppressor and the female side of things is always the victim as it relates to family violence.
00:03:59Does that make sense?
00:04:01I think I understand. I think I understand. I mean, you have to navigate the system that is, right? And try and help men as much as possible. I mean, I remember many years ago having Ellen Pizzi on the show, and she was famous for having tried to open the first men's shelter in the UK.
00:04:19And feminists went nuts on her and death threats and all kinds of crazy stuff just for trying to help men who were victims of domestic violence or abandonment. And it's a little asymmetrical, I suppose.
00:04:32No, it absolutely is. And I mean, in my past roles, I'm working in the homelessness sector, and there are a lot of men who have been victims in this space, including myself in my own story, which makes things a bit more complicated. But I'm not allowed to engage with that, which is difficult within the program that I'm in.
00:05:01That I'm working in.
00:05:06And what's your story?
00:05:09My story, where do you want to start? I mean, when I was about, I don't know, maybe 21, 22, I was in a relationship with a much older woman, about maybe 10, 11 years old, I think she was about 33, 34.
00:05:28And, you know, I was young, but I made decisions at the time and sort of overlooked red flags, possibly because of my age. But basically, within that relationship, like, no, it wasn't an option. I just sort of had to do as I was told.
00:05:48And as things went on, threats and that sort of thing went on. Like, for example, if I wasn't doing as she saw fit, she would threaten to call my work and make all sorts of allegations and get me fired in case that I wasn't going with the program.
00:06:15That was her point of view. And I see that a lot on a more higher stakes with all the men that I work with in terms of marriages that have fallen apart. And then they end up being accused of family violence. And due to the way the laws are worked out, not a lot of evidence is required.
00:06:35And they end up having to do my program basically in order to tick a box, in order to see their children.
00:06:47Right. And what were the red flags in the relationship? That's always helpful for men to see ahead of time and learn from our bitter experience. What were the red flags?
00:06:56Absolutely. I mean, I was young and I've had a lot of trauma as a child and had low self-esteem. But the red flags in the relationship was obviously, if I could see clearly now as an older man, was using drugs. And there's a lot of victim blaming.
00:07:19I'm sorry. It's a little hard to hear. So the woman was using drugs?
00:07:25Yes, she was. And she introduced me to drugs that I hadn't used at the time. There wasn't a gun to my head. So there was a choice in the matter. But yeah, she used that to control me a long time ago.
00:07:41And sorry, when did you first know that she was a drug addict and I suppose a drug dealer if she's introducing you to drugs as a young man?
00:07:50I would say maybe about maybe a few weeks into the relationship. I mean, the first few times we met, obviously, she's given me checks that I wasn't used to and it was a lot better than what I was used to.
00:08:05So she did the sexual love bomb?
00:08:08Yeah, absolutely.
00:08:11All right. And so you found out a couple of weeks into the relationship that she was a drug addict and a drug dealer, I suppose, or at least a drug hand or outer, whatever we would call that.
00:08:25Yeah.
00:08:26And what do you think had you susceptible to continuing? Because I assume this was before the abuse started. And I'm not criticizing, of course. I just wanted to know what is the vulnerability?
00:08:36No, absolutely. Well, it's a lack of self-esteem. I mean, I grew up in a single mother household and it was…
00:08:47So you're used to serving dysfunctional women as a child, right?
00:08:51Absolutely. I'm familiar. Yeah, no, absolutely. It's like you always have to say yes. Otherwise, if you don't say yes, there are severe consequences coming your way.
00:09:01Right. Okay.
00:09:03And how long did this relationship last, if we can call it a relationship, not really?
00:09:08Yeah. I mean, I, well, I would say about like two years of self-bullying and then another four years of me being trapped.
00:09:18Oh, gosh. So this ate up most of your youth?
00:09:21Yes, it did. I mean, and I held on to a lot of sort of hate and blame for a long time. And I wasn't able to work through it until I sort of take responsibility, acknowledgement of my behavior on it.
00:09:39Even though I was a young man, it was still like I wasn't able to work through it until I sort of said, well, look, the red flags are there. And I saw them as green flags because I had issues and I had to work through them and low self-esteem and that.
00:09:55And yeah, I continued it. But then she got pregnant by another man while we were in a relationship.
00:10:07And did you know at the time it was from another man?
00:10:11Within a few months, I figured it out. However, I was trapped in it. Looking back, I could have worked my way out of it, but I didn't because it sounds silly.
00:10:25But I had a dog and, you know, we're living in the same house with the dog. And I was sort of trying to find a new house. But also she was, you know, with the drugs, I was addicted at that time. And, you know, I was sort of trapped in that space. And then, you know, she was threatening and she did call my work and make accusation and threats. So it felt like, you know.
00:10:50Was she accused of the sexual misconduct of some kind?
00:10:53Correct.
00:10:55But it also being a drug addict and these sort of things like that, she was going to tell my work, in which case, which felt like, at the time, because, you know, I was not healthy. It felt like a death sentence at that time. Like, you know, if I lost my job, that was it.
00:11:12So she would call your job and tell, like, reveal your drug addiction?
00:11:16Correct. She hadn't at the time, but she would ring and harass, you know, the workers and that sort of thing and make a nuisance of herself and embarrass me. Sort of with threat that the next thing that was coming was, you know, these sort of explicit threats of, you know, of violence and drug addiction and these sort of things.
00:11:37Wow. OK, so how long? It was a six year relationship, if I understand it correctly. And how long into the relationship did she get pregnant with the other man's child?
00:11:48About three years.
00:11:50Gosh. Gosh. OK. And so you how did you find out that it was another man's child?
00:11:57I suspected slash knew that she was having an affair with another man, and I was taking precautions not to get her pregnant at the time without being too explicit that, yeah, I was making sure that I wasn't, you know, at risk of making her pregnant and tying me to her for the rest of my life.
00:12:20And then she became pregnant and, you know, I didn't feel safe to accuse her to begin with, but we got in an argument and then I accused her and then, yeah, and then it all came out.
00:12:32Oh, so she admitted that it was the other man's child?
00:12:34She admitted it, in which case, you know, you know, if I was rational and in a safe and healthy point of view, I would have, you know, tried to escape, you know, come hell or high water. I would have done that. But I didn't. And it lasted then again for another sort of two to three years.
00:12:55Oh, gosh. And did she she obviously kept I assume she kept the baby and you were raising another man's child. Is that right? Oh, did she leave and go with him for a while or?
00:13:04No, that is correct. He was involved. He was a gang member and got incarcerated during the pregnancy. And that's so, you know, obviously, his resources as well as his wife had.
00:13:23He was a married criminal gang member.
00:13:26Correct. You know, a great pick.
00:13:29Wow. Wow. Sorry, go ahead.
00:13:33No, no, no. It's all pretty hairy. I mean, look, I mean, it's not the sort of thing that I that I share with most people because they wouldn't understand. But I obviously have shared with psychologists and that sort of thing, trying to work through my trauma.
00:13:53But, yeah, this happened and, you know, I tried to take my my partner and trying to work him through it. Is that that? Yeah, I mean.
00:14:05Sorry, you said you tried to take your partner and work her through it. And I'm not sure what that means.
00:14:12Well, basically, you know, once I finally did separate from her, I held on to a lot of hatred and it was a lot of blame. And that sort of held me from taking responsibility for my actions.
00:14:26I was a victim, but but I also, you know what I mean? I, you know, I still made choices and this very poor choices and taking accountability and responsibility for my actions allowed me to to finally work through it and try and make changes to make better choices moving forward.
00:14:51Well, but a young man's mistakes are a social concern, not an individual concern.
00:14:57So, I mean, I'm sure you're aware of this, but one of the reasons why nature pumps us so full of mad testosterone sex juice is because nature is assuming that we have male mentors and healthy females around us to guide us in the right direction.
00:15:16Right? I mean, if the young man's sex drive led on a consistent basis to this kind of chaos and horror, then nature would have turned down the juice, right? And made us, made young men less sex mad, right?
00:15:37So the reason why we can be so crazy full of lust is because it's supposed to be a force that is guided to pair bond us with a healthy woman.
00:15:48And without male mentors, older men with some wisdom who are past the sort of manic phase of sexual, I mean, it's used to say lust, but young men are basically sex addicts as a whole.
00:16:02And we're supposed to have that channeled right into a pair bonding healthy or at least reasonably healthy relationship.
00:16:11And so, to me, a young man's mistakes in the sexual arena are a social issue.
00:16:19It's not just an individual because you didn't have anyone around you to sit you down and say, here are all the red flags.
00:16:30Don't do it. You know, here's five healthy women you can date instead.
00:16:34She's a drug addict. She wants to ply a man barely out of childhood with hard drugs.
00:16:41This is an absolute disaster. And you need to not go down this path.
00:16:47And here's why. And here's what happens to people who do. And you didn't have any of that, I assume, right?
00:16:53No, you're absolutely right. And, you know, the male mentors that I had in my life at that time were pretty much like the ones I did have were also drug addicts, but for softer drugs.
00:17:08And, you know, she made sure to embarrass me so that I would turn my back on them or they would make it too difficult for them to intervene.
00:17:19And I see that now as an older man and that these institutions that were in place, like the church or organizations or institutions, just weren't available for me at the time.
00:17:34Growing up, you know, not unlike yourself within a social welfare state.
00:17:41And that just wasn't, it wasn't there for me. And, you know, I have sympathy, you know, for my younger self and the poor decisions that I made, but lying within that victim complex just was not helpful, you know?
00:18:00Yeah. I mean, if there was no such thing as a car, expecting a young man to invent a car and all of the component parts and, you know, the rubber and the metal and the frame and the wheels and the steering wheel and the rack and pinion and the suspension, like expecting a young man to invent a car out of nothing would be insane.
00:18:23And expecting young men without guidance to choose wisely in the realm of romance is equally insane because we're supposed to have this whole structure in society that strongly guides young men towards healthy outcomes.
00:18:41And because we need such a ridiculous level of pair bonding, you know, we're a very long-lived species and a man gets married at 20 and is going to live into his 80s, right?
00:18:51We're talking 65, maybe 70 years of pair bonding. And, you know, if you want two pieces of metal to stick together for 80 years, you've got to weld them like crazy at the beginning.
00:19:02So this is why we have such a high sex drive as young men is to get us into a pair bonded relationship that's supposed to last for 60 to 70 or more years and is supposed to survive aging and is supposed to survive the issue that occurs for men in middle age, right?
00:19:20The issue that occurs for men in middle age is sexual market value flips, right? So, you know, when you're a young man, you're low on the totem pole and women are very high on the totem pole because they're in the peak of their beauty and youth and fertility and you're, you know, a broke-ass young guy trying to make ends meet and get ahead in life.
00:19:39And then, you know, in your, as you know, in your 30s and in your 40s, your wife becomes older. She's, you know, often ravaged by childbirth and she's losing her figure and she's losing her looks. And so her sexual market value on the open market, I don't mean in a monogamous relationship, her sexual market value declines.
00:20:01And of course, as a man, you are now a proven commodity, right? Assuming you've had a decent career and you've made some money and you have some stability and some savings and some assets. Now, young women are interested because they don't have to cross their fingers and hope you'll make money, which they have to do with young men. At their own age, you're a proven commodity.
00:20:23And so the pair bonding also has to survive, you know, what's derisively referred to as a midlife crisis, which simply reflects the fact that a man's sexual market value goes very high and a woman of the same age goes very low.
00:20:39And so the pair bonding of a young man and a young woman at the age of 20 has to survive the big flip 20 or 25 years later, where young women are highly desirous of the middle-aged man. And how does he stay pair bonded with his wife when he could, of course, dump her and go and start another family, which for his genes would be highly advantageous.
00:21:03And, you know, you're absolutely right. And that's where culture, you know, comes into play, where you have sort of, you know, a shared understanding of values and norms, whereby, you know, in the past, you'll be ostracized and, you know, there'll be severe consequences if you left your family and started a new one, which is what, you know, my father did.
00:21:33There was no repercussions for it.
00:21:35Sorry, did your father experience repercussions or did that get erased by the welfare state?
00:21:41Oh, no, absolutely not. No, yeah. No, he started a new family and, you know, all is well. You know, yeah, the welfare state should take care of, you know, the past mistakes and quotation marks.
00:21:53And, yeah, you can start a new family and you can be, you know, the best dad in the world to his, you know, look, apologies, but mixed-race children that, you know, doing good going forward, you know, with, you know, whatever results that embrace, but in strict Darwinian, you know, frameworks, you know, it's a smart move.
00:22:20Yeah, and I mean, the whole pair bonding that occurs with the very high male sex drive and the very strong female bonding emotional mechanisms, they have to survive all of the vicissitudes of life, right?
00:22:31And there are times, of course, if sex alone is the basis of your relationship, then there are times when in marriages, there's more sex and less sex.
00:22:39Obviously, in the honeymoon, there's more sex. When there are babies around, there's less sex. And, you know, the challenging part in life for women around menopause and menopause often coincides with, you know, a five to 10 year decline in the health of the grandparents or the health of the parents of the parents, right?
00:22:59So, a woman is battling menopause, and that can be a challenge. And she's also taking care of aging and increasingly infirm parents. And, you know, it's tough to feel super romantic when you've just come home from spending a day, you know, wiping your dad's butt or something because he's lost his control over his bowels.
00:23:20So, there has to be such a strong pair bond at the beginning of life that it survives all these things. And, of course, it has to survive as we knew evolutionarily when half the children died before the age of five. It has to survive miscarriages. It has to survive infant mortality. Usually, there's at least a couple of dead babies in the family burial plot.
00:23:44And it has to survive all of this. So, how do you get men and women to pair bond to that degree? Well, the man's sex drive is crazy high, and the woman's pair bonding is crazy strong. And so, that's why you need older men to help guide and channel the young man's half-sex addiction to its proper purpose, which is a healthy marriage.
00:24:15And, of course, you didn't have that. So, you latched on to a volatile, dangerous personality who didn't really have the capacity to pair bond. And then you pair bonded with her. And then, I guess, that was a six-year ride to hell.
00:24:31Absolutely. And you're right. Within a healthy culture, you would think that love would be trust and respect built up over time, not that infatuation, like you say, the crazy high sex drive and then the massive oxytocin release by the females.
00:24:58So, within a healthy culture with good institutions involved, there would be that knowingness that the ups and downs and this and that are part of the course. And over time, you want to build a strong foundation whereby these ebbs and flows are manageable.
00:25:24But within the disaster, quite frankly, of the welfare state, which is picking up the slack for bad behavior, it just causes all these social issues, which then, now in my new career, I'm sort of the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff.
00:25:45Right. And your mother must have been especially kind of crazy to have you pair bond with this level of instability.
00:25:50Oh, yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, even though I have a degree in psychology, I would not even try to guess what's going on with my mother. There's some severe issues there, but she abused me and my brother, who I'm estranged from, massively.
00:26:20And many of us don't have children of our own and our lives are – I would like to think that I'm rebuilding things and doing things not so bad, but we're both messes in terms of the general – the ways that you would gauge or measure a successful life.
00:26:40And sorry to – you don't have to talk about anything you don't want to, but if you are okay with it, in what manner were you – or manners – were you abused by your mother?
00:26:50I feel that she has a form of mutualism by proxy. Look, I mean, I've unpacked everything. I'm happy to talk about whatever, because I think that, you know, like, by being really raw and saying things, a lot of people listening have probably experienced it to a lesser or similar degree.
00:27:16But my mother got caught up in the sexual abuse, satanic panic hysteria of the late 80s and early 90s, and she convinced me at a very young age that I had been sexually molested by my father.
00:27:35Oh, gosh. Okay.
00:27:38Yeah, like, it's pretty heavy, but look, I'm comfortable talking about it. But basically, there was a financial incentive. I'm from New Zealand and we have a thing called ACC back there. So there's a financial incentive for having confirmed sexual abuse.
00:28:01So I just, you know – when do I start? Okay, so at about seven years old, my dad – when I was still visiting him, I was still, you know, having casual business with him every now and then until about seven to eight years old, and he told me he was having a lot of parties and this sort of thing, and there was issues with my mother.
00:28:22And I was a pretty smart kid, but I didn't quite understand what he was meaning, but he was basically confessing, and what he was confessing to was the fact that he was sleeping with prostitutes and another woman while my mother was pregnant, and I was born with chlamydia.
00:28:39Oh, okay.
00:28:41So, yeah, like, a great start to life and really adult problems that a seven-year-old shouldn't be having to deal with. So my mom explained this to me, but, you know, a seven-year-old is not quite capable of understanding all these sort of nuances and these sort of things.
00:29:00And then maybe within about a year or so, you know, I had issues. Like, it was pretty understandable. Like, I couldn't sleep very well. You know, I had all the signs of trauma and this sort of thing.
00:29:14Sorry, do you mean within a year or two of being born?
00:29:17Apologies. Within a year or so of my dad telling me this, and then me asking my mother further explanation, and she explained it all to me in adult terms, which I didn't quite understand, but I was showing all these signs of trauma.
00:29:33And at that time, in the late 80s, early 90s, there was all this satanic panic slash sexual abuse kind of hysteria going on. And, you know, I was sort of talked into making accusations of my father, which weren't true, but I was only a kid and I sort of, you know, I held onto a lot of hatred to myself for making this stuff up as a kid.
00:30:00I sort of let that go because…
00:30:01Well, you didn't make it up.
00:30:05True.
00:30:06No, I mean, I'm not saying it actually happened, but you didn't just make it up out of whole cloth, right? So, you know, one of the things that we know as, you know, as a father myself, I've been a stay-at-home dad for almost 16 years now, I mean, children are unbelievably, ridiculously, pathetically helpless.
00:30:23I mean, they really can't do anything of any use for a long time, right? And that's the price of our big brain and our conceptual abilities.
00:30:31You know, unique in the animal kingdom, like they've been teaching sign language and talking with apes since the 1960s, right? So, you know, 50, 60 years, they've been sign languaging or using sign language with apes. And in those 50 or 60 years, not one single ape has ever asked one single question, right?
00:30:53Yeah.
00:30:55And so, we are so ridiculously dependent that we are programmed by nature to please our mothers.
00:31:07Yes.
00:31:09We have to, and we will do that no matter what, because the alternative to doing that is not surviving. Or to put it another way, of course, all children who defied their mothers, well, those genes got weeded out pretty damn quick, because the mothers would not feed them as much, they would not take care of them, they would not nurse them when they were ill, they would not protect them from predators, they would abandon them.
00:31:36I mean, infanticide and child abandonment and infant mortality was so high, like the pressure on the survival of children is so intense.
00:31:49Even today.
00:31:50You have to. If your mother says, jump, you say, how high? Your mother says, I want you to call this tree a potato, you call the tree a potato. Your mother says, you have to accuse this guy. Okay, well, the genes to say no got weeded out about 200,000 years ago or millions of years ago. You have no functional ability in any practical sense, and certainly from evolutionary pressure standpoint, you have no functional ability to say no to crazy moms.
00:32:16So it's not like you just made this up. I mean, biology, evolution stripped you of free will and said, obey your parents or die. And if your mother says you have to do this, and I'm sure the pressure she put on you was immense, what are you supposed to do? I mean, you choose death if you don't obey, in general.
00:32:36Look, I mean, you know, I so appreciate you framing it in those terms. I mean, I have, you know, sort of thrown off that.
00:32:47And it's your father's fault for choosing such a crazy woman to be the mother of his children anyway. They're colluding.
00:32:52I don't view your father, and I'm sure you don't either, but I don't view your father as a victim of this at all. He chose to give children to a deranged, immoral woman. Sorry to put it so bluntly, but that's from what I hear, right?
00:33:07And so if that blows back on him in terms of accusations, it's like, well, that's a shame. Maybe you should be a little more careful where you lay your dick next time. So I view you as the victim. I don't view you, of course, as bad or immoral in any way. I'm glad you did it because the alternative would probably have been to not survive, or at least that's what the genes say.
00:33:28So I view you as a victim, and I view both your mother and fathers as participants and perpetrators in these allegations. And you are just trying to survive two insane, immoral people battling away. And if you're picked up and used as a weapon, well, you have no more guilt in my view than a sword picked up on a road.
00:33:52I really appreciate that framing. I try to acknowledge it and work through it as best I can, but that framing is super happy.
00:34:06I mean, you were seven. What is a seven-year-old supposed to do? You've got no legal recourse. You've got no independent thought. You've got no guidance. You've got no protectors. You've got no salvation. You've got no wisdom. You've got no economic or legal independence.
00:34:20I'm sure you didn't really want to, but if mom says, hey, make these allegations, you are just a butter knife picked up in a fight. And the butter knife is not morally responsible, it's the people fighting who are morally responsible.
00:34:37So I'm sure that you don't have much of a burden left after all of these years, but if there's anything I can do to ease that even so much later, so much the better, I view. Your parents battling, and you are like an inanimate object picked up and thrown.
00:34:51Absolutely. And for a long time, I held on to it because I was pretty clear for a seven-year-old. I wouldn't say gifted, but I was pretty clear on my age. And at the time, I was given a weapon to hurt my father, who had abandoned us to start a new family.
00:35:12And I was aware enough as a seven-year-old to realize that this would hurt, and I was encouraged to do so.
00:35:22No, you weren't encouraged to do so. Please, I'm so sorry to be annoying. I apologize in advance. You weren't encouraged to do so. I guarantee you that your mother threatened the bond if you didn't.
00:35:37Yeah, she did.
00:35:38She either threatened it with violence, threats of abandonment, hysteria, escalation, abuse, threats of going to the orphanage. She threatened the bond. It's not like she's like, yay, allegations, you should do it. And you're like, good, that sounds great, mommy. That wasn't the scenario. That's not encouragement. I mean, I encouraged my daughter in running races. I'm not going to use the same word for threatening the bond and provoking in you the thanatos or the death instinct that if I don't please mom, I'm dead.
00:36:08And if she's willing to do this to the man she once claimed to love, like there's an implicit threat in making your children do these kinds of horrible things, which you see she's saying to you, hey, kid, that man I promised to love, honor and obey for the rest of my life. This is what I'm willing to do to him, kid. What the fuck do you think I'm willing to do to you?
00:36:30I chose him. You're just here by accident in a way, right? This is what I'm willing to do to the man I promised before Almighty God to love. And I chose him out of a multitude. This is what I'm willing to do to him, kid. Cross me. You want to find out what I'm willing to do to you? I don't think you do.
00:36:52Yeah, I mean, yeah, John, he's saying in person that the happiest I've ever seen my mother was when I was 17, and I nearly died from a suicide attempt. And that's the happiest I ever saw her when I pleaded with her not to tell anyone or show anyone, and she tried without all her friends and relatives, rather than hospital. That's the happiest I ever saw her.
00:37:18Was when she was showing me off, recovering in hospital to her so-called friends and family.
00:37:29Yeah, I mean, I would assume obviously just a garden variety sadist. And you know, when a sadist has power over you for the next decade, right, you're seven and probably the earliest you can get out of 17. So if you have a punch and torture happy sadist in charge of your life for the next decade, well, you better obey.
00:37:53You know, it's like, you know, those stories of the soldiers in World War One. I remember as a kid, I'm like, why on earth would they get up out of that trench and run into machine gun fire? Like, why would they do that? Doesn't make any sense. Well, they're doing that, of course, because they've got an officer down in the trenches with a pistol who's going to shoot anyone and does shoot anyone who doesn't go over. So rather than certain death, you'll take only a possible death.
00:38:18So, you know, if the soldier says, well, I was, I was encouraged to get out of the trench and run into machine gun fire. It's like, no, you weren't encouraged. You were threatened with death. And that's what happens with cruel parents and children. It's all a death threat. It's all a knife to the throat death threat. And so I'm obviously completely happy that you survived.
00:38:40I don't feel any particular sorrow that such a brute of a father got these accusations. I mean, I get that they were unjust and false. But I mean, and I wish that they hadn't happened. I wish that your mother hadn't forced you. It wasn't encouraged. I wish your mother hadn't forced you.
00:39:02But I do find it kind of tough to find a great deal of sorrow in my heart for the blowback on a man who gave his newborn chlamydia.
00:39:15Yeah, well, there's no repercussions. He's living a rather nice life with his new family and children. Well, there are difficulties.
00:39:25Sorry, you think he's living a nice life?
00:39:28Well, no, he's a pathetic alcoholic.
00:39:33So why would you say, why would you drop a bomb like that? The evil doer is living a nice life? What are you talking about?
00:39:40He's got six children. So if you look at it from a strictly Darwinian. But yeah, I mean, look, I mean, you're right.
00:39:51No, I just can't have you say that kind of stuff. Sorry to be annoying. I just can't have you say that kind of stuff to my audience that a man can completely escape the consequences of his evil actions and live a great life.
00:40:03I mean, that's as bad as saying, you know, my father is 70 years old. He's been a chain smoker for 40 years. And he just completed the Boston Marathon and came in fifth.
00:40:18I'd be like, well, that can't be true.
00:40:22It could be an outlier. Yeah.
00:40:26No, no, it's not an outlier. There's no one alive who can be a pack a day smoker for four years and then come in fifth on the Boston Marathon at the age of 70. Like, that's not an outlier. That's an absolute physical impossibility.
00:40:42A hundred percent. And I suppose that's one of the issues that, you know, I still haven't worked through. And it's crazy, you know, like countries, you know, for a new job.
00:40:57Your audio keeps coming in and out. I'm not sure if you're getting further or closer away from your microphone.
00:41:02I am. I apologize.
00:41:05Do you want to know?
00:41:07Yes.
00:41:08So let's talk about this, right? Because I think this is important, right? Because some of that bitterness comes out when you think your father got away with everything.
00:41:16Yeah, yeah, it is, you know, and, you know, it's just heartbreak after heartbreak because, you know, and it's just so stupid of me, but I keep going back to that well, but that well is empty. Like, well, I was sort of 19.
00:41:35Please don't insult yourself. If you could do me a favor, I don't like it when people say I'm so stupid and so on, right? I wouldn't accept you saying that about me or someone else. So I certainly won't accept you saying about yourself. If you could refrain, I would appreciate it.
00:41:52Yep.
00:41:53All right. So what's the well you keep going back to?
00:41:56My father.
00:41:58Okay. And what's in the well that you think of?
00:42:01Nothing.
00:42:02No, no, but you go back. So you must think there's something in the well. So what?
00:42:06I don't know. Like, I just want him to love me and to, you know, to appreciate me. But, you know, he never will.
00:42:15Sorry. You want the evil guy to love you?
00:42:19I don't know.
00:42:21No, you just don't. I'm not asking you to retract your statement. I'm just, it's a little, I'm a little curious. I don't know how long you've listened. How long have you listened to what I did?
00:42:30A long time.
00:42:32A long time. Okay. So you want the evil guy to love you. The guy who chose your mother, abandoned you to her abuse and slept around with whores when his wife was pregnant, gave his wife a sexually transmitted disease, which she then transmitted to you in utero.
00:42:56And it was, you know, just a terrible father and human being and about as corrupt and immoral as a father and husband can be. Is that a fair assessment?
00:43:09It's absolutely accurate.
00:43:10Okay. So you want him to love you.
00:43:18I guess I had nobody else because, you know, shortly after my first suicide attempt, my mother threw me out of the house. I didn't speak to her for five years, you know, when I was about sort of 17 and a half. And, you know, I reached out to him because, you know, I had nobody else.
00:43:39And, you know, I'm not stupid. It was obvious that he had nothing to offer. But from time to time, I try and reach out again and try and build that bridge or reach out, which is just ridiculous. And I don't know why I do it.
00:43:57No, you know why. And sorry, how old? I mean, you don't have to give me your exact age, but what decade are you in?
00:44:03Born in 82.
00:44:06Okay. Got it. Got it. Okay. So you're in your 40s, right?
00:44:11Correct.
00:44:12Okay. So this is a long time ago. And I completely understand how you would need, you know, as a young man, you would need to reach out to your father. You need a roof over your head and, you know, you're traumatized. You've had a suicide attempt. So I can understand. It's like any port in a storm, right?
00:44:29I understand that. But again, this is many decades ago. And it's important to have a clear assessment of things now and understand why we did things in the past. So reaching out. That's interesting. Okay. Is your father a vain man?
00:44:48I think so. But I think that's, you know, there's no reason for him to be because by all accurate assumptions, you know, he's completely deteriorated.
00:45:02Would you call him, and again, we're just using this term in an amateur fashion, would you call him highly selfish or narcissistic?
00:45:11Correct. I believe he has borderline personality disorder or some sort of, you know, cluster B personality disorder.
00:45:19Okay. And would you call him cruel?
00:45:22Oh, yes.
00:45:25Okay. So cruel people, what they love to do, particularly sadistic people, is they love to provoke a need in people and then deny that need. That makes them feel strong, important, valued, necessary, right?
00:45:45So you think of, you know, someone who kidnaps a woman and he'll dangle food in front of her when she's really hungry. He'll dangle water in front of her. She's desperate for these things. And it makes them feel strong and powerful and important to provoke a need in her and then deny her that need.
00:46:01Some women who are sadists will do this in a monogamous relationship. Some men too, where they say, well, we're monogamous and therefore you can't get sexual gratification anywhere else, but I'm going to deny you sex.
00:46:14So they provoked the need for sex by entering into a monogamous relationship and then they deny sex. It's just a form of garden variety sadism. And so my question would be, was it anything to do with you that you kept going back to this well, or was it your father provoking needs and then denying them, provoking needs in you and then denying them?
00:46:40Possibly. I mean, I think it was like he never reached out. He reached out once, I mean, about a year and a half ago when my half brother, who's schizophrenic, was having a complete meltdown. And my father knew that now I'm in the, I'm into health field and I work with people and that sort of thing. And he asked me to help him to help my half brother, which I did because I was stupid.
00:47:08So your father reached out because he needed you to help your schizophrenic half brother?
00:47:14Correct.
00:47:15Okay. So he's not reaching out. He just has a need. He wants to dump his child on you.
00:47:22Yeah. Well, at least that crisis. Yeah, at least that crisis.
00:47:25Okay. So he doesn't want to deal with it. He wants to dump it on you. So that's not reaching out.
00:47:30No. So you're absolutely right. He did reach out to me, but for whatever reason, I would reach out to him.
00:47:39Okay. So let's go back to when you reached out to him, did he ever give you anything that you wanted?
00:47:48No.
00:47:49So what would happen? What would be the cycle of reaching out to him?
00:47:55Well, I mean, okay. So for example, a few weeks before my 21st birthday...
00:48:00I'm so sorry. This audio is really rough, man. I'm sorry if just to ask you to speak closer to the microphone and enunciate a little better because overall, I'm getting a lot of fog in the voice.
00:48:10So if you could just be a little bit clearer, I would appreciate it. Sorry about that. Go ahead.
00:48:14So yeah, the cycle of reaching out to your dad.
00:48:16Sorry, my apologies. Okay. For example, a few weeks before my 21st birthday, I reached out to him and I reminded him my birthday was coming up and that it would be good to see him or something.
00:48:32And then, of course, my 21st birthday rolled around and there was no... I was only expecting a phone call, but there was no phone call or no nothing.
00:48:43So that's just sort of an example of where I would reach out and then maybe...
00:48:47But that's over 20 years ago, right?
00:48:50Correct. And then maybe every sort of five years or three to four years, I might reach out and try and have a dinner or something. And I'm not sure why I would do it.
00:49:03Okay. So let's examine why you would do it because I think that's important, especially because you got... Listen, man, he's going to age and he's going to want things from you again and his kids are going to run into trouble and his wife's going to age and they're going to want things from you.
00:49:15So if you don't have this wall, welcome to the next 10 years of your life. If you don't have these boundaries, if you don't have this clarity, then you're going to get just hoovered up into this muck and mire for five to 10 years.
00:49:31I mean, I guarantee you this is happening because I'm in that phase of life where people's parents are aging out and it's brutal.
00:49:38So, and especially if he's an alcoholic, he's going to have probably, if he doesn't already, lingering messy health issues and he's just going to be like a guy drowning, grabbing at any piece of wood.
00:49:51And since you're somebody who provides him resources, you're going to be on the speed dial.
00:49:58Quite like that. Unless I work through it, I will pick it up on the first ring.
00:50:06If he calls.
00:50:09Correct. I guess that's a lingering thing that I still need to work through is to put up those boundaries.
00:50:19The boundaries are moral. They're not, everyone's like, oh, low self-esteem or this, that and the other. No, the boundaries are moral. In other words, the boundaries are a healthy defense against evil.
00:50:35Right. That's what you need. So how do we get a healthy defense against evil?
00:50:41Well, first of all, we have to identify it. Think of like the immune system in your body, right?
00:50:47You don't want it not attacking dangerous pathogens and you also don't want it attacking healthy cells, right?
00:50:55So it has to first identify the dangerous pathogens.
00:51:00Do you identify your father as evil?
00:51:07And if not, that's fine. We can have a discussion about that.
00:51:11I do, but I struggle because then when I see him or I talk to him, he's just pathetic and it's hard to hold that frame that he's just an evil person.
00:51:25Okay, so he's pathetic. So what do you mean when you say that? What does that look like?
00:51:33He's just useless. He's an alcoholic. He's totally reliant on his wife or his long-term partner.
00:51:45Yeah, he's just failed at everything in his life.
00:51:52I'm pretty sure at this point that it's cultivated. He cultivates this persona of being pathetic and useless in order to be able to feel sorry for him and not to judge him.
00:52:16Okay, so he's manipulative.
00:52:21Absolutely.
00:52:23Okay, so he's gone from masculine intimidation to feminine uselessness in terms of the manipulation, right?
00:52:30Mm-hmm.
00:52:32Okay, it's very common.
00:52:34So when you were genuinely helpless and dependent as a baby and as a young man, how were you treated by him?
00:52:52Pretty indifferently. When I was growing cannabis and that, I was useful to him. So he would come and get cannabis and he stole furnishings from his workplace to furnish my house. So when I was of use to him, then I got resources.
00:53:21Oh, sorry, was your father a drug dealer?
00:53:27I don't know. My mother paints this picture of him as this drug dealer and all that, but he's not half the drug dealer my brother was or even I was somewhat. I was just a farmer when I was younger.
00:53:50Sorry, you grew cannabis, right? And you shared it with your father?
00:53:55I did. I sold the drugs.
00:53:57And did you share more cannabis with your father than he could use himself?
00:54:01I would say so, yes.
00:54:04Well, then he's giving it, maybe not selling it, but he's transferring the excess you're giving him to other people, right?
00:54:12Correct.
00:54:14Ah, okay. And how old were you at this phase in your life?
00:54:19It was in that in-between time, so I was maybe 19, 20, 21.
00:54:24Right. And did you also provide cannabis to others?
00:54:30Look, I mean, I'll be honest, I did. It was mainly for my own use. And then I would frame it back in that time as pocket money. But yes, I would sell it or trade it for what I needed at the time or what I found useful.
00:54:51Right. And what were the ages of people that you were giving or selling drugs to?
00:54:56I was very careful about that because I used to really judge my brother, who was wholesale in terms of, you know, he would sell in bulk to people and then would give on to kids. But no, I was very small time, so I knew exactly who I was giving it to and what amounts. It was all adults.
00:55:16So just young men like yourself, right? Young men and women?
00:55:19Yeah, correct. Or, you know, yeah, all adults.
00:55:24Okay, got it. But all victims of child abuse, I would assume, right? I mean, as far as you knew.
00:55:30No, no doubt. Yes. Looking back on it, yes.
00:55:33Got it. Okay. And how do you feel about your participation in, I guess, obviously, small aspects of the drug trade?
00:55:49Look, I, you know, it's, you know, it's dual-sided. Like, sometimes I look back on all my times in that time because, you know, I had lots of friends, obviously, because, you know, I was quite particular and I grow quite good quality stuff. So, you know, I had a lot of people who were wanting to be friends with me. So at that time, I had lots of friends.
00:56:13Are you really using the word friends for people who like getting drugs from you?
00:56:18Thank you for calling me out. Yes. No, absolutely not. No, they weren't friends. They were just using.
00:56:23They were just parasites and you were parasiting on them to avoid loneliness and they were parasiting on you to get drugs. Okay. Anyway, go on.
00:56:29Correct. No, correct. Look, I left that, obviously, like, you know, nearly 20 years ago. So, but I still look back on it and I am ashamed, you know, because even though I was careful, there is no doubt that probably a small amount, you know, trickled down to children, most likely, and I'm ashamed of that and I will never go down that road again.
00:56:54You know, and, you know, it used to provide me with money, which then, you know, then I would use for, you know, nefarious activities, which then would then feed into, you know, further. What sort of nefarious activities? You don't have to give me any details, but that's a pretty broad category.
00:57:09I used to, you know, I would frequent strip clubs and brothels at the time. Ah, okay. Got it. Yeah. Certainly very ashamed of it now, but I did do it and, you know, that's a fact I can't walk away from and, you know, knowing my, you know, how ashamed of my childhood and that sort of thing, but that's no excuse. It was still a choice at the time and, you know, it's, I don't do it anymore and I haven't done it for a long time, but I still did it.
00:57:40And when was the last time you went to a brothel or had sex with a prostitute?
00:57:46I would say at least 10 years ago, 15 years ago.
00:57:50Okay. Got it. Late twenties, sort of thirties kind of thing, right?
00:57:54Correct. Yeah. I tried to, I tried to turn things around when I hit 30. It was no longer like, I could no longer excuse myself and be like, I'm just trying to keep myself alive. I'm just trying to kill myself. You know, by that time I hit 30, I'm like, well, look, I'm no longer at that point. I'm not a young man anymore. It's up to me now to make changes in my life.
00:58:16Okay. So what was your fantasy dinner with your father like? What were you looking for? What would have been the ideal for you?
00:58:24Oh, look, my ideal was like, oh, you know, I'm really proud of you. You know, you have, you turn things around, you knuckle down and you started, you finish with honors and et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, I'm really proud of you. And, you know, I wasn't expecting any resources and that, but, you know, just some props and some recognition was the fantasy.
00:58:47Okay. And now if you had gotten that recognition, what do you think that would have done for you in your life? What would that, what would that, what pain would that have eased or what benefit would that have provided?
00:58:58I don't know. I mean, I, I think maybe it would have stopped that, that whole, um, or that issue with that, um, the male recognition. Obviously I have issues with, you know, um, with men and authority and that sort of thing. And, um, maybe it would have eased that or made me feel a bit more complete. Obviously, you know, that's total nonsense, but, um, if I'm reflecting on it, that's what I, what I think I'm wanting to do.
00:59:28Okay. So your mental health development was in the hands of an evil guy.
00:59:33Yeah.
00:59:36You voluntarily as an adult, you know, I'll be straight. We're not talking about when you were 18, right? You voluntarily as an adult, put the quality of your soul and the progress of your spirit and the health of your mind in the hands of a guy who gave his baby a venereal disease.
00:59:56Correct. And, uh, I think as an adult at that time,
01:00:00The audio is coming and going, whatever you need to adjust to get back to it. It's just, uh, it's really, I mean, cause I really want to follow the story and it's just kind of annoying that you're all right.
01:00:09I, I apologize. Um, no, reflecting now I can see where you, where you're coming from. Um, but at the time I think it was more to put it to bed. Like I was trying to justify it.
01:00:24At the time this happening in your forties.
01:00:27Correct. But my late thirties, but yeah.
01:00:33Oh, long ago, low those 18 months when my father wanted me to take care of my schizophrenic half brother.
01:00:39And the distance of time called last year.
01:00:46A couple of years ago, but yeah, I think, um, at the time, uh, you know, the way I was sort of justifying it to myself was, um, to put that to bed, to try and, um, to try and put that away that, um, that hole in that, um, that sort of masculine, um, you know, affirmation that I wanted.
01:01:08Okay. So let me just, sorry if I got the timeline wrong. When did your father ask you to take care of your schizophrenic half brother?
01:01:14Yeah, we, um, two years ago now.
01:01:18Okay. Okay. So, and, and how long did you, did you do that for, or if you're still doing it, is it still occurring now?
01:01:26No, it's not occurring now.
01:01:29How long did you take care of him for?
01:01:33Oh, I did one crisis intervention one evening, and then I did maybe three or four phone calls doing some mental health support with him after the fact.
01:01:43Okay. Got it. Okay. So it was less than two years that you finished it and more than 18 months. Okay. So we'll just say two years. I'm fine to round up. Okay. Got it.
01:01:53Sure.
01:01:54Okay. So, sorry, it wasn't last year. It was the year before.
01:01:56Correct.
01:01:58The distant mists of 2022. Okay. Got it.
01:02:00Thank you.
01:02:01Back when men were men and women weren't invented. Okay. So.
01:02:05Yeah. Yeah.
01:02:08So you put your mental health in the hands of an evildoer.
01:02:20I did.
01:02:21And you did this as recently as 2022.
01:02:27Correct.
01:02:28Okay.
01:02:29And it's not a criticism. It's genuine curiosity.
01:02:32WTF.
01:02:34Why? Why? What's the thinking behind this? He's an evil guy. Boy, do I ever need the approval of an evil guy?
01:02:41You know, it's strange. I guess it's one of the flaws that I still need to work on.
01:02:51One of the character flaws that I still need to work on.
01:02:55Oh, gosh. I don't want you to flaws and stupid. I just be curious. Why? Because you're judging. Like, you step back from the curiosity. You judge, well, it's a negative thing. It is a character flaw. And I guess I'm just stupid. And it's like, none of those is curiosity.
01:03:08Just why?
01:03:10I think it's because I want to put that to bed. I want to.
01:03:15Putting that to bed tells me nothing.
01:03:17I want to be a bigger person.
01:03:20That tells me nothing. I don't know about being a bigger person. Like, what is the fundamental moral judgment that you have where you say, the way that I improve as a human being is to get the approval of an evildoer?
01:03:33Which is like a cop saying, the best way that I can become an excellent cop is for organized criminals to love me.
01:03:41It's insane when you think of it that way, right?
01:03:45It is.
01:03:47And you're not crazy, so there's got to be some kind of distorted thinking around there that I'm trying to understand.
01:03:54I think forgiveness. I want to forgive him.
01:03:57Fantastic. Okay. Are you a Christian?
01:04:00Culturally.
01:04:02Okay. So you believe in the virtue of forgiveness, right?
01:04:05Correct.
01:04:06Okay. So who owes who forgiveness in this relationship?
01:04:15He forgives you when you were a child.
01:04:19Yeah, but I will never get it.
01:04:22I'm sorry?
01:04:24I will never get forgiveness.
01:04:26Well, you can't now because you're not a child anymore.
01:04:29Yeah.
01:04:30Okay. He needs to beg your forgiveness for leaving you with a crazy, dysfunctional, destructive woman.
01:04:37Right? He needs to beg your forgiveness for burdening you with adult issues and inflicting a sexually transmitted disease upon you in the womb.
01:04:46And about a million other things, right?
01:04:49Yeah.
01:04:50Okay. So if forgiveness is a good, then refraining from forgiveness is a negative, right?
01:04:58Okay.
01:05:02So forgiveness is something that can be earned, right?
01:05:10It can be earned if you take responsibility.
01:05:13If you apologize, you make restitution, you find ways to commit that it's never going to happen again,
01:05:20then there are people, I'm sure, in your life, and I'm sure you've done this too.
01:05:23All decent people have. You've made a mistake, you've done something wrong, you've hurt someone,
01:05:27and you apologize, you make restitution, you earn your way back into trust and honor, right?
01:05:32Yeah. A quick side note, I use that in group all the time, and I want to thank you for that framing around forgiveness.
01:05:41Fantastic. Let's put you in that group now.
01:05:43That's right.
01:05:44So, do you believe, because this is a Christian thing, right?
01:05:50And there's no negativity towards Christianity, but this is one of the challenges.
01:05:55Yeah.
01:05:56Do you believe that there's a good father in there somewhere?
01:06:02No.
01:06:04Okay. So if there's not a good father in there somewhere, like I assume as a lifelong alcoholic,
01:06:11he's done massive damage to his liver, and there's no good ghost liver in there,
01:06:15like there's no backup liver that he can just pray into existence, right?
01:06:19His health is good, but anyway, yeah, carry on.
01:06:22He certainly would have done damage to his liver, I assume, through the drinking, even if it hasn't shown up that much yet.
01:06:27Okay. Or like a smoker, right? A smoker damages his lungs, and that's just the lungs he has.
01:06:33And there's no backup lungs, there's no ghost lungs in there that are pink and healthy,
01:06:37he's just got these black lungs.
01:06:39So, if there is no good father in there, then whose approval do you want?
01:06:48I think it's approval, but I really think it's my forgiveness to move on. I think that's what it is.
01:06:59So what does it mean to say to move on? Because you haven't moved on.
01:07:03How long have you been working on this forgiveness thing?
01:07:05I guess I've pushed it down, but really forever.
01:07:10Okay. So since you were at least a young man, so we've got a quarter century.
01:07:15For a quarter century, you've been trying this forgiveness route, right?
01:07:22Okay. Has it worked?
01:07:24It has not. And we can just cut in quickly. I moved country for a job.
01:07:33Sorry, your audio's gone bad again.
01:07:35Sorry. I moved country for a job like a year ago, and I told him,
01:07:42I told him, look, I'm moving country, and do you want to see me before I go?
01:07:47And we made a time and a date, and he flaked on me.
01:07:51And then my uncle told me that, look, he's lying to you.
01:07:56So he's what?
01:07:58He lied. He said that he didn't have his phone, or he made some excuse, but he didn't.
01:08:04He was just joking.
01:08:06Are you saying that the guy who screws prostitutes and gives his pregnant wife a sexually transmitted disease is also a liar?
01:08:13Oh, yeah.
01:08:15Hang on. That's shocking to me.
01:08:17Oh, absolutely.
01:08:18And he lies.
01:08:20Yeah, I know. And at that point, I want to think that I haven't spoken to him since, but I, you know, look, that was the last chance.
01:08:28Okay. So this was a year ago. You were still hoping to get something from your evil bag of a dad.
01:08:35I want to say goodbye, but yes, correct. Yeah.
01:08:38So what did you want from him?
01:08:41I don't know. I mean...
01:08:43Yes, you do. You absolutely do.
01:08:45We're not incomprehensible creatures motivated by things completely beyond our understanding.
01:08:50Because that would mean we have no free will.
01:08:53So what do you want from him?
01:08:56I really want him to apologize so I can forgive him and move on.
01:09:00So in order to... Okay, let's say that he was dead five years, right?
01:09:06Would you still want an apology from him? Would you still want to prop up his rotting carcass at dinner?
01:09:15I would really hope that I would say no, but maybe yes.
01:09:20Okay. So even death cannot reveal to you your father's nature, and even death will still have you begging for him to accept your forgiveness or to apologize when he's been in the ground rotting for five years.
01:09:36Maybe, if I'm being honest.
01:09:38I appreciate that. I appreciate that directness. I appreciate that directness. Right.
01:09:44So, the question is, you're a very intelligent man, so why would you continue doing something for 25 years that doesn't work?
01:09:53And gaslighting yourself as to why.
01:09:55Oh, to put things to bed, to move on, to... I don't like this at all. None of this makes sense.
01:10:00It's a deal with my hostility towards male authorities.
01:10:04Like, none of this. This is all just nonsense, right? None of it makes any sense, and none of it's thought out at all.
01:10:09So why do you keep doing something for 25 years that doesn't work, and you still want to keep doing it?
01:10:14Because a year ago, last year, 2023, you wanted to meet up for dinner and get closure, right?
01:10:22Here's a rule of thumb. People who give you chlamydia ain't going to give you an apology.
01:10:30Yeah. You're absolutely right, and I think it's because I stop it down, and I don't talk to him for years, and I try to forget about it, and then it pops up again.
01:10:44And I think that's why.
01:10:46Sorry, you don't talk to him, and that's why? I don't understand.
01:10:51Yeah, I think it's because every five years or so, I'll try again for some reason. I won't think about it. I'll try and stuff it down.
01:11:01And then for some reason, whatever justification or bullshit reason that I'll try and say to myself, I'll reach out again, only to be let down again.
01:11:14Okay, but it's not the once every five years that matters. It's the principle in your mind that matters. It's the principle in your mind.
01:11:24Okay.
01:11:25You have an illusion about your father that there must be a good guy in there somewhere.
01:11:34Maybe, yeah.
01:11:36Well, that has to be the only reason.
01:11:40I think maybe because my mother always told me I was just like her ever since I was like a little kid. So maybe that's it.
01:11:54Oh, well, that's the death threat from your mother, too. She detonated your father and her relationship with the father. Therefore, if she says you're like him, she'll detonate it with you, too. So that's the death threat from your mother very explicitly, right?
01:12:05Okay, let's go to your mother.
01:12:08What was moral, good, right, true, noble, and righteous about your mother? What were her virtues?
01:12:13She's a hard worker.
01:12:15That's not a virtue.
01:12:17I have to be a serial killer.
01:12:19That's not a virtue.
01:12:21Virtue. Look, I mean, all her virtues are lies.
01:12:28I don't want to hear, I know the evils. What are the virtues?
01:12:34Look, all I would say was that she's a hard worker and conscientious, but you're right. That's not a virtue. So I can't say anything.
01:12:42And also, if she's really dedicated to her craft and she's a sadist, you don't want a sadist to be a hard worker, too. You want a sadist to be lazy as fuck, right?
01:12:50Yeah.
01:12:52So your mother is an evil person.
01:12:54Yes.
01:12:57So why, I understand needing to believe this as a child, right?
01:13:02But why in your 40s, in your fifth decade of life, why would you believe a sadistic evildoer who says you're just like your father?
01:13:19Like, she's a sadistic evildoer and a child abuser and her soul is going to hell if there's any justice in the afterlife.
01:13:26And I would salute it as it went and shed no tears whatsoever.
01:13:31She's an evildoer who abused children, who falsely accused her ex-husband of sexually assaulting her son, who forced him into that position.
01:13:41Who manipulates and bullies and I'm sure is violent and handed you over to Mom Mark II, which is the crazy girlfriend when you were in your early 20s.
01:13:49Yeah.
01:13:51So if she says you're just like your father, how the fuck is that supposed to be any kind of empirical, rational judgment from a manipulative evildoer?
01:13:59Well, I mean, you know full well that's not empirical or rational.
01:14:06Okay, so the fact that it's not empirical or rational should give you some pause.
01:14:12Correct.
01:14:14A manipulation. It's a threat.
01:14:17Yeah.
01:14:19She says, this is what I'm willing to do to your father, you're just like your father, ergo this is what I'm also willing to do to you, so you better fucking get in line or you're going to be evaporated.
01:14:27You're going to be disassembled and turned into a red mist of former child.
01:14:31Yes.
01:14:33Okay, so this is a threat.
01:14:37Yeah.
01:14:38This is a threat.
01:14:41So if you have crazy, sadistic, evil mother threatening you, why would that threat, as an adult, I understand as a kid you got a nod and say, oh yeah, Mom, I guess I'm just like Dad and because otherwise the threat is executed, right?
01:14:58Yeah.
01:14:59So I get that.
01:15:02But as an adult, and as an adult of many decades, why would this still have meaning or landing or connection to you?
01:15:12I don't think it does in my day to day, but I guess in my subconscious.
01:15:18Okay, I don't care about your day to day, because we're talking about the deep tides of life.
01:15:22Yeah, in my deep tides, yeah, I guess it does because, you know, it sort of helped brain my personality.
01:15:36Right.
01:15:37My temperament.
01:15:38So you have allowed, and at this point it is allowed, right?
01:15:44Correct.
01:15:45You have allowed evildoers to define your value, which means you keep going back to this empty buffet of shit, trying to get a good meal.
01:15:57Yeah, correct.
01:16:00Okay, so why, what's the gain for you?
01:16:06What's the benefit to you of defining yourself according to the verbal abuses and manipulations of rankly evil and corrupt people?
01:16:15Why would you accept that?
01:16:22I'm not sure.
01:16:23Apart from, you know, whatever sort of, you know, the temperament and personality that has now formed around me.
01:16:32But you would challenge this, right?
01:16:35You would challenge this in your mind like a fire in the house, right?
01:16:40The fire in the house, you put it out or you get out of the house, right?
01:16:43Correct.
01:16:44If you're sleeping and you wake up and there's a strange rotten egg smell in the house, it means that, I don't know what, propane is leaking or something like that, right?
01:16:53So you wouldn't just be like, oh, well, I'm sure everything's fine and just try and get some sleep, right?
01:16:59If you hear a thump in your house in the middle of the night, you get up and investigate, right?
01:17:04Because something dangerous could be in your home.
01:17:09So if you have, hey, evildoers have tried to define me to myself so that I can serve their evil plans, so that is like a dangerous pathogen.
01:17:26That is like rot on your sandwich.
01:17:29That is like fur and bacteria on your sandwich, right?
01:17:37So you don't just eat it, you identify that as really bad for you and you fight it with everything you've got because it's a vile infection that harms your life.
01:17:52You hear what I'm saying, right?
01:17:54So you have allowed this infection to sit and define you deep in your spine.
01:18:00And the question is, I mean, I'm not saying anything to you that you don't know, right?
01:18:04I mean, you've listened to me for years, right?
01:18:05So this is nothing too shocking.
01:18:07So the question is, why haven't you squared off against this infection?
01:18:12Why haven't you fought it with everything you've got and get that shit out of your brain?
01:18:18I'd like to think that, you know, look, I mean, it's no excuse, but it's no longer on the dinner table.
01:18:26It's still sitting there in the basement.
01:18:28Are you in a happy and loving and stable romantic relationship?
01:18:34I think you know the answer to that.
01:18:36Well, that's why I'm bringing this up.
01:18:41You allowed evildoers to define your essence.
01:18:46And you're having trouble falling in love.
01:18:52Of course, that's the price.
01:18:57You were born with an infection, chlamydia.
01:19:00You still have an infection called essence.
01:19:04Your essence has been defined by evildoers.
01:19:07Your mom, who's an evildoer, says you're just like your father.
01:19:11Your father, who's an evildoer, you still have this fantasy that he has something that he can provide you that is not manipulation.
01:19:22So why are you holding on to these definitions when they are undermining your life?
01:19:31Why are you still allowing evildoers in your fifth decade?
01:19:34Why are you still allowing evildoers to define who you are?
01:19:42I think that, like I said, I don't make excuses, but I've made some progress.
01:19:51But for some reason, I haven't managed.
01:19:53No, it's not clear to you, though.
01:19:55It's not clear to you because a year ago, you're still trying to get your dad's approval.
01:19:59When you're 41 years old, this guy who's giving you nothing but shit sandwiches, you're like, maybe he's become a Gordon Ramsay.
01:20:09The progress is not enough, and it's not clear.
01:20:13It's not enough.
01:20:14If you've reduced the spread of the infection, that doesn't make you well.
01:20:18Correct.
01:20:20It's difficult, isn't it, to throw off things that, like you said, have been playing in your mind or have been defining yourself for so long.
01:20:47Because then I guess all you're left with is yourself.
01:20:51What? No.
01:20:53You're incredibly isolated at the moment.
01:20:55All you have now is the lies.
01:20:59Right?
01:21:01You can't be close to people if evil people have defined your essence.
01:21:05Because the only way that you can be around people in any close way, if evil people have defined your essence, is to be around evil people.
01:21:14Which you don't want to do.
01:21:16But you can't be around good people because good people can smell this rot a mile away.
01:21:21Yes, that is true.
01:21:24So you're isolated.
01:21:25You say, oh, well, all I'm going to have is myself.
01:21:26You don't even have yourself yet.
01:21:28You've just got an endless 24-7 job of lie management.
01:21:32Yeah, okay.
01:21:35And breaking.
01:21:36Yes, yes, you're right.
01:21:38And I say this with great compassion, and none of this is any kind of negative judgment.
01:21:42I want you to understand that very clearly.
01:21:44I say this with great sympathy.
01:21:46Yeah.
01:21:48So what is causing, I mean, the stuff that you say about your parents is some of the worst stuff I've ever heard.
01:21:56And I've heard a lot.
01:21:57Yeah, yeah.
01:21:59Like, you've got to be in the top ten of thousands of callers.
01:22:02You've got to be in the top ten of people with evil parents.
01:22:04Okay.
01:22:06So what you communicate to others, this is what keeps you isolated.
01:22:09What you communicate to others is my parents were about as evil as evil can be, and I still want things from them.
01:22:17I still let them define me.
01:22:19I'm still trying to get close to them.
01:22:20I'm still trying to get closure.
01:22:23And that is very disorienting to people.
01:22:27Honestly, it's like listening to, imagine you go on a date, right?
01:22:32Yeah.
01:22:33And you say to a woman, hey, tell me a little about yourself.
01:22:37And she says, well, I enjoy being a pen pal, right?
01:22:41Yeah.
01:22:42Right?
01:22:43And she says, so there was this guy, he's a serial killer, and he likes to murder children.
01:22:51And I'm a pen pal with him, and I really hope he'll take me out on some dates when he gets out of prison.
01:23:01What would you think?
01:23:04You're not a smart move.
01:23:06But what would you think deep down?
01:23:10I would think that, yeah, they're damaged and making poor decisions, you know, due to various factors.
01:23:21Okay.
01:23:22This is all very abstract.
01:23:24What would you feel about such a woman who said, I can't wait for the serial killer of children to get out of prison so he can take me on a date and maybe take me away for the weekend?
01:23:36I mean, yeah, it depends if I was in a professional sort of thing.
01:23:44What would you feel?
01:23:46I would feel bad.
01:23:47I would feel judgment.
01:23:50I would feel that this person's making poor decisions.
01:23:52Judgment is not a feeling.
01:23:53What would you feel?
01:23:55They'd be a lot more able to propagate in the world they're in.
01:23:58What would you feel?
01:24:01I would feel terrible.
01:24:03Yeah.
01:24:04Terrible is not a feeling.
01:24:05That can be a headache.
01:24:06What do you feel?
01:24:07What is the flavor or depth of your emotion?
01:24:09What kind of emotions are you having?
01:24:14Pain.
01:24:15I would feel emotional pain, I guess, on their behalf and also anger at their poor decisions.
01:24:26Okay.
01:24:30So I think there's something you wouldn't see.
01:24:33Yes.
01:24:34Oh, maybe you see it deep down.
01:24:37I would feel disgust and horror.
01:24:42And the reason I would feel disgust is that this woman was serving and rewarding evil.
01:24:51Mm-hmm.
01:24:52Right?
01:24:53Yes.
01:24:54Because she'd be like, I can't wait to fuck the serial killer.
01:25:00So she would be serving and rewarding evil.
01:25:05Mm-hmm.
01:25:06You follow?
01:25:07Yes, I do.
01:25:08I mean, yeah, I'm very familiar.
01:25:10Okay.
01:25:11Your parents are evildoers.
01:25:13I think we've agreed on that.
01:25:15Is that fair?
01:25:16That is absolutely fair.
01:25:17Okay.
01:25:18Now, we haven't talked.
01:25:19Is your mom still alive?
01:25:21Correct.
01:25:22Okay.
01:25:23And what's your relationship like with her, if there is one?
01:25:27It's sporadic at arm's length.
01:25:30Okay.
01:25:31So you still have a relationship with your mother.
01:25:32Okay.
01:25:33Correct.
01:25:34Yeah.
01:25:35I'm sorry?
01:25:36Yes.
01:25:37Yes, I do.
01:25:38Okay.
01:25:39So they have not apologized.
01:25:40They have not become better people.
01:25:42They are still manipulative and they're still toxic, right?
01:25:47Correct.
01:25:48Okay.
01:25:49So you are serving and rewarding evildoers with the grace of your presence.
01:25:53You are shielding them from the consequences of their evils by continuing to seek things from them
01:25:59and pretending to have some kind of relationship.
01:26:01Now, you can say about your dad, well, it was goodbye last year, but, you know,
01:26:06he still obviously has an effect and who knows what's going to happen in another couple of years
01:26:11when you start to get teary-eyed and sentimental and full of crap.
01:26:14Correct.
01:26:15Okay.
01:26:16So you are serving and rewarding evildoers.
01:26:20Correct.
01:26:22Correct.
01:26:23Yeah.
01:26:24Okay.
01:26:25So what does that do to your moral standing in your own conscience?
01:26:29It creates, yeah, tension and, yeah, I'm not able to, you know,
01:26:39to be an ethically moral and upstanding person if I continue to do that.
01:26:44Yeah, I see that.
01:26:45So are you aware of the price of your conscience by continuing to serve and reward evildoers?
01:26:56I see that now.
01:26:58Yeah.
01:26:59So why would you do that?
01:27:04Have you had, sorry to interrupt, I apologize.
01:27:06I asked you a question and I apologize for interrupting.
01:27:09Have you had, you know, quote, the conversation about your parents,
01:27:13about what they did to you that was dire and immoral when you were a child?
01:27:18Have you had that conversation or those series of conversations where you talk about
01:27:23problems that you had with them when you were a child?
01:27:27I have tried, you know, forthrightly and that.
01:27:32My mother, she cannot handle it.
01:27:34She will collapse and deteriorate.
01:27:37She cannot handle it?
01:27:39She will, yeah, she cannot.
01:27:41She's in total denial about her behavior.
01:27:43What do you mean she cannot?
01:27:45So if somebody gave your mother a million dollars to sit and listen to you for 20 minutes,
01:27:50would she take that money and would she find some way to not burst into tears and whatever?
01:27:54Or even if she did, would she say, no, no, no, keep going because there's a million dollars?
01:27:59I don't think she would.
01:28:01Yeah, she would.
01:28:03It's all manipulation.
01:28:04She has no genuine emotions.
01:28:06Everything is manipulation.
01:28:08And if there was enough of incentive, she could absolutely do it.
01:28:11I guarantee you.
01:28:12Okay, okay.
01:28:13I guarantee you.
01:28:14Listen, she's a functional person in the world, right?
01:28:16You said she's hardworking, right?
01:28:18She ran away.
01:28:20Last time I did in a public place, I tried to have the conversation.
01:28:23I get that, but you're thinking that she can't and that's not true.
01:28:30Now, if she was in a coma, if she had Alzheimer's, if she had some significant brain damage,
01:28:36or if she was in some mental institution and highly drugged up.
01:28:39Okay.
01:28:40But you said she's hardworking and conscientious, right?
01:28:42So she's a functional person in the world, which means she has the capacity to defer gratification.
01:28:48She does.
01:28:49Okay.
01:28:50So she's just bullshitting you and she's lying and manipulating and you're letting her get away with it.
01:28:55But, oh, she just can't.
01:28:56Just like, what do you mean?
01:28:57She can't.
01:28:58Of course she can.
01:28:59She's got free will.
01:29:01Yep.
01:29:03I think you're right.
01:29:06I mean, I always justify it to myself.
01:29:08You played.
01:29:09You're getting played.
01:29:10Oh, I can't take it.
01:29:11You must stop.
01:29:12I'm so upset.
01:29:13Okay, you're fine.
01:29:14I'll stop.
01:29:16You're just playing, man.
01:29:17Come on.
01:29:18Yeah, I'm a sucker.
01:29:19I'm a sucker.
01:29:23All right.
01:29:24So you haven't had that with your mother because she...
01:29:27Oh, she runs away.
01:29:28It's too...
01:29:29I'm trying to do it.
01:29:30It's too unbearable, blah, blah, blah.
01:29:32Yep.
01:29:33All right.
01:29:34So what about your dad?
01:29:36I have, but he seems to be immune to it.
01:29:41It's mad.
01:29:42I, you know, when I was, like, if you're up for another, like, really messed up story,
01:29:49when I was...
01:29:50Why stop now?
01:29:51Anyway, go ahead.
01:29:52Why stop now?
01:29:53Yeah, why stop now?
01:29:54So when I was 19, you know, I reached out to him again, I think partly for my own good
01:29:59because, you know, for resources, I was seeing what I could get, I guess, and that.
01:30:04And I met up with him and stuff.
01:30:06So you wanted money from him?
01:30:10Possibly, but more likely, like, maybe.
01:30:14Maybe money, maybe furniture, maybe, you know, I was...
01:30:18Sorry, you're giving up the truth about your childhood and love for a fucking table?
01:30:23Yeah, pretty much.
01:30:25Things were hairy at that time.
01:30:28I was borderline homeless.
01:30:33But anyway, regardless, I met up with him to see what I could get out of him.
01:30:37That was what I was, you know, if I'm looking back on things, that's how I would frame it.
01:30:44And I just, you know, I happened to have two tabs of LSD on me.
01:30:49And I, you know, I showed it to him just to, I guess, show off.
01:30:53And I said, oh, look, you know, I got this.
01:30:55And he just picked one up and ate one.
01:30:57And then...
01:30:58Sorry, how old were you at this point?
01:31:0019.
01:31:0119, OK, so I get that.
01:31:03That's a long time ago.
01:31:04So your father, who's a drug addict, you show him drugs.
01:31:06Or was he a drug addict at the time?
01:31:09I wasn't sure, but yeah, I mean, yes, he was.
01:31:11Probably, I mean, certainly a heavy drug user.
01:31:13OK.
01:31:14Alcoholic, yeah, yeah.
01:31:15OK.
01:31:17So, of course, well, he already ate one.
01:31:19So, I mean, I might as well eat one, too.
01:31:22And so, anyway, we, you know, we went to some gathering or something and went to his place.
01:31:30I tried to have the conversation with him.
01:31:32And I...
01:31:33Sorry, you tried to have the conversation with your...
01:31:36I'm sorry.
01:31:37I know this is not funny.
01:31:38And I apologize for a little bit of laughter.
01:31:41So, you tried to have the conversation with your father when you were 19 and he was tripping
01:31:49balls on LSD.
01:31:51Correct.
01:31:52Which he stole off me.
01:31:53I want to be noted.
01:31:55I did not...
01:31:56Well, you show drugs to a drug addict.
01:31:59What do you expect?
01:32:01OK, so let's not pretend that this is anything that could be achieved.
01:32:06Yeah.
01:32:07You can't have the conversation with a drug addict or heavy drug user who's high on LSD.
01:32:13Can we agree on that?
01:32:16We can agree on that.
01:32:17And I did try to have the conversation later on when we were stone cold sober, too.
01:32:22But whatever hard shell is placed over him, it just bounces off.
01:32:30And I tried to apologize for the sexual abuse allegations and stuff.
01:32:37And so I explained to him that, you know, look, it was sort of goaded out of me and I tried
01:32:42to take it back.
01:32:43But at that point, I was told that I was in denial and I couldn't take it back at that
01:32:48point.
01:32:50And he sort of forgave me.
01:32:52He said he just blamed my mother and said, you know, not to worry about it.
01:32:59And then later on, I sort of, you know, tried to say as well about, you know, the birthdays
01:33:05and all the sort of thing and, you know, all the time missed and the impacts that I've
01:33:11had.
01:33:12But it just it just bounces, bounces off him.
01:33:14He doesn't he doesn't register it at all.
01:33:16He sort of says the words, but it doesn't really impact him.
01:33:22And so how old were you when you had these series of conversations?
01:33:26I think we had 19, which I was shooting balls.
01:33:30No, the LSD thing was 19.
01:33:32But the other ones?
01:33:34I think maybe 23, 20 years.
01:33:37So 20 years ago.
01:33:39Yeah.
01:33:40Yeah.
01:33:41OK.
01:33:43So.
01:33:45You've had no satisfaction in that realm for decades.
01:33:49No, no, it's not going to happen.
01:33:51So it sounds to me and I don't mean this in any critical way at all.
01:33:54It sounds to me like you just don't want to give up your parents.
01:33:57Right.
01:33:58You still want to hang around evildoers and want things.
01:34:03You're willing to sacrifice love and connection and companionship.
01:34:07Of course, they're going to die.
01:34:08You're still going to be alone.
01:34:09Right.
01:34:10And there'll be fewer women to pick from in your 50s or 60s.
01:34:12So it sounds to me like because I'm always trying to track the emotions behind the words.
01:34:18Right.
01:34:19So I'm half listening.
01:34:20Actually, I'm about 35% listening to what you say.
01:34:23And I'm about 65% listening to your emotions.
01:34:27Yeah.
01:34:28Now, I've really tried to challenge this moral core of yours.
01:34:31And you've bounced away from that and have no particular emotions about it.
01:34:36And so it sounds to me like you don't want to give up wanting or needing things from your evil parents.
01:34:47And I don't mean this in any critical way.
01:34:48I'm just trying to say because there's no particular.
01:34:50You had a bit of emotion earlier, but it's all gone.
01:34:52Right.
01:34:53So and so when I'm talking about this aspect, and I don't want to waste your time, obviously.
01:34:57Right.
01:34:58So if you want to continue to have these evildoers in your life with no particular confrontation,
01:35:05no, I mean, do what they want, not what's good for you.
01:35:09Right.
01:35:10So unfortunately, now you have, you know, 25 years almost as an adult doing what your parents want rather than what's good for you.
01:35:17And it sounds like you want to continue that.
01:35:19And maybe things will change after they're dead or something like that.
01:35:22But it sounds to me like you want to continue doing that.
01:35:24And I'm just making that as an observation, not the judgment.
01:35:27That's a really good observation, which I guess I have not thought about critically because it's very sporadic.
01:35:38I speak to, you know, a dad like, you know, once or twice every five years and my mother once or twice a year.
01:35:45But you're absolutely right.
01:35:47And I think that, you know, it's.
01:35:51But you're always waiting for the call, aren't you?
01:35:55I don't think I am, but I think.
01:35:57Okay, then what's the plus of having them in your life?
01:36:00Help me understand that.
01:36:01What's the plus?
01:36:02I mean, the cost is pretty clear to me.
01:36:03I think I've made my perspective on that pretty clear.
01:36:06So what's the plus?
01:36:08I don't know.
01:36:09Am I trying to be the better, you know, to be the bigger person and to be, you know, to this forgiveness and to let it go?
01:36:16I know.
01:36:17I think I framed it a while back.
01:36:19I tried to frame it around trying to break the cycle because, you know, my mother.
01:36:23You haven't broken the cycle.
01:36:25You're alone.
01:36:26You're alone in your 40s with no kids.
01:36:29What cycle have you broken?
01:36:31Breaking the cycle of ostracization, of cutting people off because that's what's in the cycle.
01:36:37So I think I framed it around that.
01:36:40Breaking the cycle of cutting people off?
01:36:42Are you kidding me?
01:36:43Why are you saying this stuff to me?
01:36:46Do you have any idea who you're talking to?
01:36:48You've listened to me for years.
01:36:50So if you say, I can't have any personal boundaries, I have to do whatever the fuck evil people want me to do, I can't have any standards of behavior, I have no self-protection, but don't worry, Steph, that's great progress in my life.
01:37:04That's great progress in the moral universe.
01:37:07No, it's not.
01:37:09It's not.
01:37:11So you're saying that you're breaking the cycle because breaking the cycle is cutting people off.
01:37:16It's an excuse.
01:37:18It's an excuse for me to take the easy way out.
01:37:20Okay, so why do you—it's not the easy way.
01:37:22You're alone and childless.
01:37:24When was the last time you had a long-term romantic relationship?
01:37:29A year ago.
01:37:31I was with my partner, my ex-partner, for four years.
01:37:36And why did that end?
01:37:38His family was really dysfunctional.
01:37:42Oh no, you didn't just say that to me.
01:37:44You didn't.
01:37:46You didn't just say that to me.
01:37:48Well, you see, although these are my parents, her parents were actually kind of dysfunctional and really had negative effects on the relationship.
01:37:55You didn't just say that.
01:37:58I actually did.
01:38:00Okay, go on.
01:38:02I put up boundaries and I said that I will not tolerate disrespect from them, and it carried on.
01:38:09And I said, fine, after many—she was lovely, and I wasn't going to put up with disrespect from—she wasn't going to cut them off.
01:38:18So I said, that's it.
01:38:20It's over.
01:38:21Right, so she chose her dysfunctional family over true love, or the possibility thereto, right?
01:38:29Correct.
01:38:30And so are you.
01:38:32I don't know why you think that's her issue and not yours.
01:38:35How the fuck are you supposed to tell someone, well, you really can't have dysfunctional people in your life now, excuse me, I have to go arrange a dinner date with the guy who gave me chlamydia as a baby?
01:38:45I guess, you know—
01:38:47Are you trolling me at this point?
01:38:49I don't know if this is serious anymore.
01:38:51It's absolutely serious, and—
01:38:53Then what the fuck are you saying?
01:38:55She couldn't draw boundaries with her dysfunctional family.
01:38:58Oh, dad needs me to take care of his schizophrenic half-son, my half-brother, I'm on it.
01:39:03I guess I justify it by saying that once or twice every five years and once a year, I can handle that.
01:39:09But you're right, an ethical and moral boundary needs to be absolute.
01:39:15Oh, yeah, you know, if a guy only kills someone every five years, that's okay, I mean, there's lots of time between.
01:39:21Yeah, you're absolutely right, and, man, this is so helpful for me.
01:39:27Okay, did she ever say anything about your relationship with your parents?
01:39:32Well, because she's very, like, she's Maldi, right?
01:39:36She's what?
01:39:37She's Maldi, like, you know, Mary, I guess, yeah, she's an indigenous New Zealander.
01:39:43She's Maldi?
01:39:45Maldi, it's Mary, you know, indigenous New Zealander.
01:39:50Oh, Maori, okay, okay, sorry, sorry, sorry, okay, got it.
01:39:53My apologies, I misheard.
01:39:55So she's Maori, and so then you have, you know, the cultural—did she grow up in Maori culture or New Zealand culture?
01:40:03Correct.
01:40:04Yeah, well, a bit of both, but basically, there is no cutting of bonds and family in that culture.
01:40:11Well, and aren't Maori children treated absolutely appallingly, on average?
01:40:17Absolutely correct, yes.
01:40:19Okay, so why are you choosing a woman who had severe child abuse and was still bonded with her parents?
01:40:27I guess the person that would take me, I guess.
01:40:31Well, then don't tell me how loved she is, then it's just a port in any storm.
01:40:36I mean, yeah, that is true, but she was, like, she was very kind to me and very nice to me, and she's a very good partner.
01:40:45And it wasn't because of her behavior that we broke up, let's be honest.
01:40:50Well, you broke up because her family was treating you badly, right?
01:40:55Correct.
01:40:56And she supported her family treating you badly?
01:40:59She didn't support it, but she wasn't willing to.
01:41:03I'm sorry, did she put you in situations where her family would treat you badly?
01:41:08In other words, come over and see my family, my family's going to be here, my family's going to be there, we're all going to be together, knowing in advance that they were going to treat you badly?
01:41:18Look, I mean, for you and me, yes, you would say that, but I don't think she would think that far ahead.
01:41:23So, I don't know what you mean, she wouldn't think that far ahead.
01:41:28She's not stupid, right?
01:41:30A little bit, I mean, I wouldn't say she's stupid, but she's not sophisticated in her thinking.
01:41:36Sorry, I didn't quite get the end of that.
01:41:38She's not sophisticated in her thinking, I don't think she was thinking three or four steps ahead.
01:41:44That's not three or four steps ahead.
01:41:46My family treat my boyfriend badly, therefore when they're around my boyfriend, they'll treat him badly.
01:41:52That's not, you know, unpacking the secrets of the universe there.
01:41:56Okay, fair, okay, fair.
01:42:00So, she loved her dysfunctional family more than she loved you?
01:42:05Correct, correct.
01:42:06Okay, because when you said, I don't want to be in this situation anymore, and was she of a childbearing age or was she older?
01:42:14Oh no, she was, yeah, like early 30s, yeah.
01:42:19Okay, so she gave up what could probably be her last chance to have children,
01:42:26and you gave up your last chance to be a father,
01:42:29because of her screwed up family and their aggression and disrespect towards you?
01:42:35That is correct, yeah.
01:42:37Now, have you been listening to me for more than four years?
01:42:42For a while, for a long time, I don't know if you've seen it.
01:42:45Okay, so, just out of curiosity, why wouldn't you,
01:42:49and maybe you did, I don't know, but why wouldn't you shoot me a call and request,
01:42:54saying, I'm thinking of getting involved with a Maori girl, who's not super smart,
01:42:58and is highly traumatized from her family, and will never break any bonds with them?
01:43:04I didn't think you would, I guess, yeah, I didn't think you'd take my call.
01:43:08You didn't think I would take the call?
01:43:10No.
01:43:11Why?
01:43:12I think you'd have, you know, I just didn't think that,
01:43:17that you'd have much volume or, you know, would make the cut.
01:43:24Oh, so you made that decision for me?
01:43:28Yes, I mean, that's the excuse, isn't it?
01:43:30It's a justification of, you know, avoiding...
01:43:34Okay, so that's, I mean, you know, that's a cope, that's an excuse, right?
01:43:39I just said that, yes, correct.
01:43:41So, because the stakes are very high, right?
01:43:43You're a guy who grew up with a lot of trauma and dysfunction,
01:43:46and you already got into a relationship with a highly dysfunctional woman in your 20s, right?
01:43:52Correct.
01:43:53And so, these are the kind...
01:43:55And there were times when we were doing three or four call-ins a night on video, right?
01:44:01So...
01:44:02Yes.
01:44:03You almost certainly would have gotten in, just so you know, right?
01:44:06Because we were trying to get to just about everyone.
01:44:08So, or if you just sent me a comment or a question,
01:44:13either on one of the websites that I have, you know,
01:44:16here's my situation, what do you think, right?
01:44:21Yes.
01:44:22I would have... I could have done it just in a response, right?
01:44:25So, there were a lot... It didn't have to be a full call-in, right?
01:44:27You could have just sent me an email or posted somewhere,
01:44:29because I'm often asking people, give me your questions, give me your problems,
01:44:32and I'll do responses to those, right?
01:44:35Yep.
01:44:36Okay.
01:44:38Now, did your family warn you about the Maori girl?
01:44:47Well, I mean, I'm not in touch with my family very often.
01:44:50My dad, like, you know, I was out every, like, you know,
01:44:53once every sort of three or four years.
01:44:55So, he didn't know about her at all.
01:44:57And that, my mother was just happy I had someone that was being kind to me in my life.
01:45:03So, she was pretty encouraging.
01:45:05But then she wasn't, you know, I told her that we'd split.
01:45:11She was, you know, not exactly, you know, upset about it.
01:45:15She said, oh, no, I don't think that was the one for you sort of thing.
01:45:18Okay.
01:45:19So, she allowed you to get into a relationship with a woman that she knew it wasn't going to work out?
01:45:25Yeah, correct.
01:45:26No, she encouraged you.
01:45:28She encouraged you to be in that relationship, and knowing that it wasn't going to work out.
01:45:33I think so, yes.
01:45:34Well, no, that's what she said.
01:45:35She said, I knew this wasn't the one for you.
01:45:38Yeah, she said that afterwards.
01:45:40I know, I know.
01:45:41So, she encouraged you at the beginning.
01:45:43She said, I'm just happy you've got someone who's kind to you.
01:45:45I'm happy that you're in this relationship.
01:45:47So, she encouraged you to go into a relationship with a woman, and she knew it wasn't going to work out.
01:45:55So, you get the low-key sadism, right?
01:45:58Oh, yes.
01:45:59Yeah.
01:46:00No, no.
01:46:01It's that Munchausen syndrome by proxy.
01:46:04Yeah.
01:46:05Okay.
01:46:06Now, what did your girlfriend's parents do to you that was objectionable, or family?
01:46:14Her dad was actually pretty cool with me in that.
01:46:19Her mother somewhat was.
01:46:21Her brothers and sisters in that, they would just shut me down every time I tried to talk,
01:46:28and really exclude me from conversations, and just really disrespectful.
01:46:34A race thing?
01:46:36I think so, yeah.
01:46:37Okay.
01:46:38So, your girlfriend's family were sort of anti-white, racist perhaps, right?
01:46:44Part of it is, you know, I have an abrasive personality sometimes, yes.
01:46:52You have an abrasive personality?
01:46:55Sometimes, to some people.
01:46:57Yeah, I'm not sure what that means, because then why would your girlfriend be with you?
01:47:04Oh, because there's other reasons.
01:47:06I mean, like, to some people, like, I mean, I can be kind of, have a dark sense of humor,
01:47:12and a bit sarcastic, and also, you know, I'm reasonably well-read, and that sort of thing,
01:47:18and that, and so people can kind of see it as being a bit of a know-it-all, or a show-off.
01:47:22I try and dial that back, but it does come out at times, and it has been told to me,
01:47:28yeah.
01:47:29Okay.
01:47:30I mean, you have a bad habit of listening to bad people, and thinking they're telling
01:47:34you anything other than bad things, just as a whole, right?
01:47:37I mean, the people who get to define you should only be virtuous people, right?
01:47:44The people who get to tell you who you are should only be people who are genuinely virtuous
01:47:48themselves.
01:47:49Yeah, thank you, Steph.
01:47:51Yeah.
01:47:52Okay.
01:47:53So, did you ever talk with the girl about, sorry, the woman, the Maori woman, did you
01:47:57ever talk with her about having kids?
01:48:01Yes, she very much wanted to have children with me.
01:48:06Gosh.
01:48:09And you dated her from 27 to 31, or 28 to 32, or something like that?
01:48:14About that, yeah, well, up until, yeah, you know, last year, so sort of at 33, 34 to 39,
01:48:23so yeah.
01:48:24Wait, sorry, sorry, I thought she was in her early 30s, my apologies.
01:48:27Oh, no, my age.
01:48:29Oh, your age.
01:48:30No, I'm talking about her age.
01:48:32Oh, yeah, yeah, so yeah, she would have been, yeah, sort of like 27, I think, when we met,
01:48:37and then to mid-30s when we split, yeah.
01:48:39Sorry, not mid-30s, because that would be longer than four years.
01:48:42So she's 27, then she's 31 or so when you split, is that right?
01:48:45Yeah, about that, yeah, yeah, correct, yeah.
01:48:47Okay, so early 30s, right?
01:48:49Correct.
01:48:50So you took, like, more than a third of her fertility window?
01:48:57Look, I said to her that we have to get married if we're going to have children, and she was…
01:49:03Sorry, you said to her what?
01:49:05I told her that if we have children, we have to be married first, and she dragged her heels on that.
01:49:14Sorry, you said to her, we have to be married, and then how long into the relationship did you ask to marry her, ask her to marry?
01:49:23I never formally did, but she started talking about children about a year in, and I told her, look, we have to get married, and for some reason…
01:49:33Okay, so did you want to marry her?
01:49:37Yes.
01:49:38Okay, so if you want to marry her, and she wants kids, and you say we have to get married to have kids, why wouldn't you propose?
01:49:46Because she said she wasn't sure, she was not.
01:49:50Yeah, when she said she wanted to have kids, and I said we have to get married, she was very down on the marriage side of things.
01:49:58Oh, she didn't want to get married?
01:50:00No.
01:50:01Okay, so if she doesn't want to get married, and she wants to have kids, and you won't have kids without getting married, why would you stay together?
01:50:09Good question, I guess we're happy together, I guess, and yeah, I guess it was silly to stay together that long, but I thought that we would work through it.
01:50:24What does that mean?
01:50:26You have a lot of therapy speak that I don't know what the hell you're talking about, like move on it, put it to bed, move past, be the bigger person, we're going to move past it, let it go, and it's all of this therapy garbage, I don't know what the hell it means.
01:50:38What does it mean to work through it?
01:50:40She would eventually agree to get married.
01:50:44Sorry, but she didn't want to get married?
01:50:47Well, yes.
01:50:50Okay, so how is that going to change? What's going to change?
01:50:54I don't know.
01:50:56You're like some chick who's like, well, he told me from the beginning he didn't want to have kids, and I dated him for half a decade hoping that he'd want to have kids.
01:51:03Well, she said she wanted to have kids.
01:51:06I get that, I'm talking about the marriage thing, it's an analogy.
01:51:10So to me, I was like, I guess I was dumb in thinking that, but it was a values mismatch, and I should have realized that from earlier and ended it.
01:51:22And did she not want to get married because it's like a white man thing, or like, I don't know how the Maoris deal with their pair bonding.
01:51:29Yeah, yeah, possibly. I'm not sure. I think it might have been part of it. It seems really strange to me that you want to have a child, but wouldn't want to get married. It seems like a child is much more of a bigger commitment.
01:51:42Sorry, the audio is cutting in and out again.
01:51:44So it seemed to me that having a child is a bigger commitment than getting married. So it seemed a bit strange to me. So I thought she was, I guess, just wanting to vet me further.
01:51:59No, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's not vetting further. Come on. Most people got married within three to four months of meeting. There's no way you need four years, especially when you're older, right? Because then it's not, you know what you're getting, right?
01:52:13Yes, yes, yes, yes.
01:52:15Okay, so it wasn't vetting. Maybe her family didn't want to marry you. Maybe they opposed the interracial marriage.
01:52:22Looking back, yes, that is probably correct, yeah.
01:52:26Right, okay, okay. And I guess before that, you had a relationship in between the six-year one in your twenties and then the four-year one in your thirties?
01:52:43Yes, another long-term relationship for like two years, three years, yeah.
01:52:51And why did that one end?
01:52:54That's a sad story. She already had a child with muscular dystrophy and that child died. And after that child died, yeah, we couldn't work through it.
01:53:07Sorry, you dated a woman who had a disabled child from another man?
01:53:12Correct, yes.
01:53:14Bro, bro. You dated a single mom, and the disabled part obviously is difficult and tragic, but you dated a single mom.
01:53:27I did.
01:53:30So, I guess the last thing I want to say is, I mean, do you want to get married, or whatever the equivalent would be in terms of long-term committed relationship?
01:53:44Yeah, absolutely, I would.
01:53:49Okay, are your parents going to be at your wedding?
01:53:54No. Maybe my mother, but not my dad.
01:54:00Okay. Did your mother or your father do more damage to you as a child?
01:54:09I used to make like a dark joke that my dad, you know, never cared about me enough to abuse me or to beat me and stuff.
01:54:17So, it depends what you say. My mother was there, but, you know, was, you know, horrible to me and abused me.
01:54:23My father just didn't care at all. So, I don't know.
01:54:27Well, your mother did more direct harm to you, right?
01:54:30Correct, yes.
01:54:32And you probably, I mean, you barely survived her. I mean, you were suicidal in your teens. She almost killed you.
01:54:39Yeah, up until a few years later, too.
01:54:44So, I just, I don't know if you know the view from healthy people, to be honest. I'm sorry to be so frank.
01:54:51No, you're right.
01:54:53So, there's a woman who loves you. Now, if she loves you, can she also love someone who almost killed you?
01:55:01Or who drove you to near suicide?
01:55:07No, no, because I've got a friendship at the moment with a woman and, you know, and she has that opinion of my mother and that.
01:55:18So, she's, you know, a pretty on to it person and stuff. So, no, I think a healthy person with good morals and ethics wouldn't be able to accept my mother, no.
01:55:27Okay. In fact, the more you love someone, the more you hate people who hurt them.
01:55:37You understand that, right?
01:55:39I do.
01:55:40I mean, if you have kids and there's a babysitter who, I don't know, beats them with an electrical cable, do you love the babysitter?
01:55:49Absolutely not.
01:55:51You hate the babysitter because she hurt your children who you love.
01:55:58So, you're asking a good moral woman to come into your life, to love you and to accept your mother.
01:56:08In other words, to love you and also love the woman who forced you to lie and neglected, I assume, beats, violence, gaslighting, lying, drove you to the edge of suicide for years.
01:56:24You want that woman to have your fucking mother at her wedding.
01:56:29Are you crazy? Like, honestly, seriously, like, what the hell?
01:56:33If I'm honest, I've given up on that.
01:56:36No, no, you just said that. Maybe my mother.
01:56:39I would love it, but I don't think...
01:56:41No, no, you did. Don't disown what you just said. Don't gaslight me, bro. You just said that.
01:56:46So, it's really annoying when you say, I might have my mother at my wedding and I give you a case and you're like, no, I've given up on that.
01:56:54It's like, come on, don't pretend to me it's that easy. Don't pretend to me you just transitioned like that.
01:56:58No, no, no, but I don't think I'll ever get married or have children. I don't think it's going to happen.
01:57:03But if it did happen, maybe.
01:57:05Okay, I said marriage, right? I don't think I said children.
01:57:10Okay.
01:57:11So, I said marriage.
01:57:13Okay.
01:57:14Okay, so let's say it's a woman who's in her mid-forties.
01:57:17She's too old to have children.
01:57:19She's not too old to get married and to be a companion for the next 40 years of your life, right?
01:57:23Yeah.
01:57:24Okay, so she loves you.
01:57:26Oh, I'm so sorry, the giving up part, I thought you meant I've given up on having my mother at my wedding.
01:57:31My apologies. I misunderstood.
01:57:33So, you thought I was talking about children and I was only talking about marriage.
01:57:37And then you brought the children thing in which I hadn't mentioned and I mistook that for your mother being at your wedding.
01:57:42My apologies.
01:57:43We just had some cross lines there.
01:57:45I'm caught up and we're back.
01:57:47Okay.
01:57:48So, a moral woman, you say, to celebrate my love for you as a moral woman, I want to have, standing in the front of the church,
01:57:59the woman who abused me for decades and drove me to suicide, near suicide.
01:58:12I hadn't thought about it very deeply.
01:58:15You have.
01:58:16You have.
01:58:17Absolutely have.
01:58:18You're an intelligent guy who's listened to this show for years.
01:58:20You absolutely have.
01:58:22I said maybe, but no, you're right.
01:58:24I wouldn't want to.
01:58:25I wouldn't want to.
01:58:26Okay.
01:58:27Does a woman who is going to be your bride, going to be your mother, maybe the mother of your kids if you want them or not, I don't know.
01:58:39But certainly going to be your wife for the next 40 or 50 years.
01:58:43Does she want your mother having power over you in the context of loving you and being in a marriage with you?
01:58:51In other words, the phone rings, it's your mother, and you pick up and say, whatever you want, Mom, I'm there.
01:58:56Because that's a lot of what happens, right?
01:58:58So, does a woman who loves you want to share you with a woman who drove you to the brink of suicide?
01:59:07Not a good moral and upstanding woman will want nothing to do with it.
01:59:11No, absolutely not.
01:59:12Because she won't, like if you love someone, you can't stand to watch them get hurt.
01:59:18Yeah.
01:59:19And you certainly can't stand to watch them be enslaved.
01:59:22See, here's the thing, man.
01:59:24To be in a marriage with a woman, you have to be, and she has to lead in some areas, but you have to be a leader.
01:59:32You can't be a leader if Mommy calls and says, jump, and you say, how high, Mommy?
01:59:40She can't, like the woman can't respect you.
01:59:43No, not at all.
01:59:44And you can't really respect yourself.
01:59:47That's true.
01:59:48So, this is what I mean when I say, if you want to hang out with your parents,
01:59:53even if it's once every couple of times a year with your Mom, a couple of times a decade with your Dad.
01:59:59I mean, I don't understand the cost-benefit analysis here.
02:00:02It's like, yeah, I totally give up having quality women in my life in order to have,
02:00:06in order to be rejected by my father every couple of years and traumatized by my mother.
02:00:11I don't understand why he would make that deal.
02:00:14You know, I guess a coward's way out or whatever.
02:00:18No, stop that.
02:00:20Stop just insulting yourself.
02:00:22Be curious with yourself, brother.
02:00:24I have moved countries to try and stop that.
02:00:28I really said to myself, that's it.
02:00:30With my Dad, that's it.
02:00:31That's done.
02:00:32Done.
02:00:33It's over.
02:00:34Okay, my gosh.
02:00:35I'm not dealing at these levels of details.
02:00:37They're in your head.
02:00:39You don't have the barrier in your head.
02:00:43And last year, you still tried to get something from your father.
02:00:46So, don't talk about moving countries.
02:00:48I'm limiting contact, and I don't talk to them that much.
02:00:51Yeah, you're right.
02:00:52It's fucking mealy-mouthed bullshit.
02:00:57So, look, we're not going to resolve this in this call.
02:01:00Right?
02:01:01I'm talking for over two hours, and I have yet to connect with you the value proposition.
02:01:07Because the costs of having your parents in your life are clear.
02:01:14The benefits of having your parents in your life are clear.
02:01:19You get to not deal with your childhood by continuing to think that your parents can give you something good.
02:01:25And you also get to keep blaming yourself for your childhood.
02:01:30Right?
02:01:31Because if your parents can give you something good, then they could have done that in the past.
02:01:35There was just some mismatch.
02:01:36Maybe you have this abrasive personality or whatever.
02:01:38But by thinking you can get good things out of your parents, you're blaming yourself for not getting good things out of your parents.
02:01:46Yes.
02:01:47Right?
02:01:48It's your fault.
02:01:49You just have to figure out how to pick this lock.
02:01:51You've got to try another key.
02:01:52You've got to try another combo on the Tumblr.
02:01:54You've just got to keep working at it, because there's great stuff in there.
02:01:58Right?
02:01:59And so, it's your fault that it's not happening.
02:02:01So, you just get to keep blaming yourself and holding yourself responsible.
02:02:05And, of course, there is no lock.
02:02:07There is no Tumblr.
02:02:08There is no door.
02:02:09It's a blank fucking wall that goes on forever.
02:02:11And you're just sitting there for decade after decade trying to fucking jam keys into brick and think you're opening a lock.
02:02:17So, you just get to keep...
02:02:21And I understand, as a kid, you'd have to take responsibility for these things, otherwise...
02:02:25Otherwise, you would get suicidal.
02:02:27And I guess you did.
02:02:28Right?
02:02:29So, you've just taken responsibility in your 40s for having a quality relationship with your parents.
02:02:34And I don't know why you'd keep doing that.
02:02:37It hasn't worked your whole life.
02:02:38It hasn't worked for 42 years.
02:02:40And 43 ain't going to make a goddamn bit of difference, except you're older and there are fewer good women around.
02:02:45So, I guess I'm not able to make that case.
02:02:49And I apologize.
02:02:50I mean, it certainly could be my deficiency.
02:02:51I'm not able to make that case clearly enough to get to where your emotions are.
02:02:55Can I just pat on for a second?
02:02:56Sorry?
02:02:57Yeah, go ahead.
02:02:59You absolutely have made that case.
02:03:01But I'm still getting, well, I moved countries and I don't see them that much.
02:03:05I know when I make the case in your heart.
02:03:08And I know when I don't.
02:03:09I've been doing this for a long time.
02:03:11So, I know when I make the case in your heart and things really click and connect.
02:03:14And maybe you can listen to this again, of course.
02:03:16Maybe...
02:03:17I will listen to it again.
02:03:20But no, no, it's merely mouth bullshit.
02:03:23You know, making those excuses around...
02:03:25But that's just your parents talking.
02:03:26Right?
02:03:27It's just your parents.
02:03:28And the parents are saying, we're not letting him go.
02:03:29And the way we're not going to let him go is we're going to pretend like we're not doing
02:03:32much damage to him.
02:03:34No, it's I need to move on.
02:03:38And if I'm going to create those boundaries, I need to do it.
02:03:42And I have done it with my father and I will do it with my mother.
02:03:46I've done it with your father because at the age of 41, you were still trying to get good
02:03:49things out of him.
02:03:51You don't have to believe me.
02:03:52That's why I say, like, I haven't made the case.
02:03:54Right?
02:03:55Which is fine.
02:03:56I just do my best.
02:03:57And maybe sometimes my best isn't good enough.
02:03:58And I'm not blaming myself.
02:03:59I'm just saying that that does sometimes happen.
02:04:01So, no, the fact that you're saying that you have put these boundaries in with your father
02:04:06is not the case.
02:04:07A couple of years ago, you were trying to take care of your half-brother.
02:04:10And last year, you were trying to have a good dinner with him.
02:04:13So you haven't.
02:04:14You haven't.
02:04:15Now, again, you don't have to believe me.
02:04:16I'm just telling you that that's what I see.
02:04:18So, all right.
02:04:19Well, listen, I really do appreciate the conversation.
02:04:22I really do.
02:04:23And I think you did a great job in many ways.
02:04:24And I really do appreciate the honor of hearing your story.
02:04:28And I do take it very seriously.
02:04:30And I hope that you get more out of it on the re-listen.
02:04:33And I really do thank you for your time today.
02:04:35I appreciate it.
02:04:37Thank you very much, Stephen.
02:04:38Take care, brother.
02:04:39Bye-bye.
02:04:40Ta.