Stefan Molyneux
  • 8 months ago
In this deep conversation, we explore the complexities of navigating past trauma in current relationships with a caller feeling stuck in a seven-year relationship marked by conflicting emotions and a long-distance ultimatum. Unraveling the impact of childhood experiences on adult relationships, we delve into the caller's upbringing, struggles with anorexia, childhood bullying, and family pressures. Reflecting on family dynamics, we highlight the challenging relationships with both the caller's and their girlfriend's parents, shedding light on emotional struggles and unresolved issues. The discussion progresses to analyzing the implications of unresolved issues on the relationship and future family dynamics, emphasizing self-ownership, unconditional love, and setting boundaries to navigate relationships successfully.

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Transcript
00:00:00 I would like to talk to you about my stuckness in my romantic life.
00:00:02 My hope is that with your help and insight we will make sense of my conflicting emotions and
00:00:07 by extension understand if I want to move forward with my relationship.
00:00:10 It has been a challenging time with my girlfriend of seven years.
00:00:14 She feels my reticence in marrying her.
00:00:16 However, things are slowly inexorably coming to a head and I'm afraid whatever way forward
00:00:21 I choose is going to turn out to be an abysmal decision.
00:00:24 The worst decision I could make for my life going forward.
00:00:27 I worry that whatever I do will be me heading straight off a cliff.
00:00:31 I recall you saying you were engaged to the wrong woman but realized and backed
00:00:34 off and backed out of it just in time and I wonder if I'm putting myself in a similar situation.
00:00:40 How would I know?
00:00:41 Can you help me make sense of this relationship as I have seen you do with many other callers in?
00:00:46 Thank you for your interest and all that you do.
00:00:49 Warm regards.
00:00:50 That's great.
00:00:51 Yeah, listen, and I appreciate you calling me beforehand as opposed to
00:00:55 I'm in a marriage with four children and it's miserable and right, that's a tough one.
00:01:01 So I appreciate the prevention rather than the cure.
00:01:05 So, all right, do you want to tell me what's going on?
00:01:09 What has got you between these two extremes of love and fear?
00:01:13 Yeah, yeah, I guess.
00:01:15 Well, as I wrote to you, I've been in a relationship for seven years now.
00:01:23 My current girlfriend, I moved abroad to work about two years ago and we've been going long
00:01:30 distance since.
00:01:31 My girlfriend's tried to find a job locally where I'm currently located at but she has not been
00:01:40 successful in finding employment.
00:01:43 Part of it certainly to do with the fact that she doesn't speak the local language
00:01:50 or at least not to a high enough level, let's say.
00:01:54 And yeah, this has been quite hard on her last year, especially.
00:02:02 And she's now essentially given me an ultimatum whereby very soon, I guess the end of the month,
00:02:14 I either have to propose to her or she said she'll find alternative arrangement.
00:02:20 What, whatever that means.
00:02:24 Alternative arrangement?
00:02:25 I'm not quite sure I understand that language.
00:02:28 Yeah, well, essentially she's currently, so she's not living very far from here.
00:02:36 She's about a four-hour drive.
00:02:40 Obviously, there's a border in between.
00:02:41 But yeah, she would essentially look for a new place where she's currently at,
00:02:48 look for a new job where she's currently at because she doesn't
00:02:50 very much appreciate her current position and her current living arrangement.
00:02:56 Oh, so she'd break up with you?
00:02:58 Essentially, yes.
00:03:01 Not explicitly.
00:03:02 I mean, the threat is not as explicit.
00:03:06 Well, it's the threat of something else.
00:03:09 I mean, it's the threat to, I don't know, she'll sue you for alimony or palimony or...
00:03:15 No, definitely not.
00:03:15 I'm trying to sort of figure out what this means.
00:03:17 No, no, it's definitely...
00:03:19 Oh, just break up.
00:03:20 We'd be moving in a direction where we break up, yeah.
00:03:22 Sorry, moving in a direction where we break up.
00:03:26 I'm trying to figure out, maybe the language is vague as a whole, but I don't quite follow.
00:03:31 Like she'd break up with you, like marry me or we break up, is that what she's saying?
00:03:36 Yeah, I guess that's essentially the threat underneath that.
00:03:39 She doesn't put it as explicit.
00:03:40 She says, marry me, you propose marriage or I'm going to start living my life over here
00:03:47 and then we'll see what happens happens.
00:03:48 Okay.
00:03:50 I mean, you say threat, you sort of use the language of threat.
00:03:53 Is it a threat?
00:03:55 It's a good point.
00:04:01 I mean, if you say to your boss, I need a raise or I'm going to start looking for other work,
00:04:07 is that a threat or is that consequences?
00:04:08 No, that's consequences, definitely.
00:04:12 I mean, I don't think it's a threat.
00:04:13 A threat is, you know, or I'll cut you or something like that.
00:04:16 So I think it's just consequences.
00:04:19 And it's not unreasonable, is it?
00:04:22 I mean, it's been seven years.
00:04:23 Yes, I know.
00:04:27 I am aware of it.
00:04:29 Yeah, I know.
00:04:29 Sorry, you told me.
00:04:31 What age range are you guys in?
00:04:33 Like late 20s, early 30s, mid 30s?
00:04:35 Just in the late 20s, early 30s edge.
00:04:40 Okay.
00:04:41 Borderline, let's put it.
00:04:42 Yeah.
00:04:43 Okay, that's fine.
00:04:43 So tell me a little bit about how you met and why you got together and what's been going on.
00:04:49 I know it's a lot to jam into a conversation, but yeah, do what you can.
00:04:54 So we met online in 2017.
00:05:00 She was my first girlfriend.
00:05:02 And I guess I was her first proper boyfriend as well.
00:05:08 We met online, we just started chatting, went to the movies, had a chat afterwards,
00:05:14 and then went out for drinks once, twice, just on a regular date.
00:05:20 And then we sort of ended up together, really.
00:05:24 I'm sorry, what does that mean?
00:05:27 You end like gravity well?
00:05:28 Yeah.
00:05:29 I don't know.
00:05:30 Did you accidentally glue each other?
00:05:31 What do you mean you've sort of ended up together?
00:05:33 I mean, but you were attracted to her?
00:05:35 Were you attracted to her?
00:05:37 I was, yes.
00:05:37 Yes, I was.
00:05:38 Okay.
00:05:39 I still am, actually.
00:05:40 Okay, so what do you mean you ended up?
00:05:44 I mean, it was a choice, wasn't it?
00:05:45 It was a choice, yeah.
00:05:48 It was more like...
00:05:48 Listen, if it wasn't a choice, I don't want to tell you that it was.
00:05:51 But I'm not sure I understand how you would choose to date someone that kind of end up together.
00:05:56 No, it was a choice.
00:06:01 Okay, and what was it about her that attracted you to the point where you've committed for seven years?
00:06:12 I don't know.
00:06:15 I find myself asking that question.
00:06:17 I don't know.
00:06:17 I don't know.
00:06:18 I don't know.
00:06:18 I find myself asking that question.
00:06:21 I have difficulties answering.
00:06:23 On the one hand, she was available, which sounds very bad.
00:06:28 No, no, listen.
00:06:29 I mean, I'm not going to judge any of this stuff.
00:06:32 I'm just, I'm a rabid curiosity hole.
00:06:34 That's my sort of, my life as a whole.
00:06:36 So, you know, we can forsake the judgment stuff and say, okay, so she was available.
00:06:42 And I assume that for you, she was attractive?
00:06:44 Yes, correct.
00:06:47 And how would you rate her looks and your looks on the sort of the old one to 10 scale?
00:06:52 I'll probably say she's a solid six and a half to seven.
00:06:58 I struggle judging myself.
00:07:02 I'd probably say an eight, but.
00:07:03 Okay, got it.
00:07:07 And was there something in particular that you found more attractive about her?
00:07:14 Now that could be physical.
00:07:15 You know, some guys are like guys, some guys are boob guys, some guys are, I don't know,
00:07:19 whatever, hair guys.
00:07:20 Was there some particular physical attribute that she had that you found more attractive
00:07:25 that may have influenced your judgment?
00:07:27 Not really.
00:07:30 Maybe freckles, I'd say, but not really.
00:07:33 Okay, yes, I guess some guys are freckles.
00:07:34 All right.
00:07:35 And who was it, was there someone who was more interested of the two of you?
00:07:41 Was there either of you that was more interested in pursuing the relationship?
00:07:45 And the other?
00:07:45 No, I would say it was fairly balanced.
00:07:50 Okay.
00:07:51 And tell me about the kind of conversations you had and a good sense of humor, wit,
00:08:02 intelligence, well-read historical knowledge.
00:08:04 Like, was there any sort of, if she was just a dude or a woman who was unavailable for
00:08:10 whatever reason, a nun or married, was there aspects of her that were attractive outside
00:08:17 of sexual interest or what were those?
00:08:19 I think she's witty, for sure.
00:08:23 Much wittier than most women, most girls at the time.
00:08:26 She was, our conversation was much about ideas, which I'd never really had with women before.
00:08:39 It was mostly boring chit-chat.
00:08:41 Yeah, that sort of thing.
00:08:46 And would you classify her as a good person?
00:08:51 Not obviously perfect, but moral and morally courageous and honest and so on?
00:08:58 Courageous, not so much, but she's definitely not an NPC, which is, yeah.
00:09:09 Okay.
00:09:09 And she was your first girlfriend and I guess you met in your early 20s or mid-20s.
00:09:15 And if you're an eight, why had you not dated for the previous?
00:09:24 I was too stuck up.
00:09:25 Too stuck up?
00:09:27 Okay.
00:09:27 Tell me more about that.
00:09:28 That's a very certain statement.
00:09:30 No, I'd come very close with a couple of girls.
00:09:35 I knew they were definitely into me.
00:09:38 We dated, went out, went to movies, they came over maybe.
00:09:42 I even went over to theirs, but I just couldn't make the leap.
00:09:47 Let's say the step.
00:09:48 I just couldn't get intimate.
00:09:50 I just freeze into place, even like on the couch or something, watching a movie.
00:09:55 Sorry, how is that?
00:09:57 I thought stuck up meant they weren't good enough for you, you were too vain or?
00:10:01 Well, that might be it.
00:10:07 Stefan, that's a bit too subtle for me, a different sound.
00:10:10 English is not my first language.
00:10:11 No, listen, I appreciate it.
00:10:12 I thought it meant.
00:10:15 You got paralyzed, like you couldn't?
00:10:18 Correct.
00:10:19 Okay, sorry.
00:10:20 Yeah, stuck up means really snobby and superior and so on.
00:10:23 So you would become paralyzed in the face of potential romantic stuff, right?
00:10:30 That's correct.
00:10:31 Okay, got it.
00:10:31 That's very well with it.
00:10:35 And what was your parents' marriage like if they had one?
00:10:40 They're still together.
00:10:41 And I don't envy them their marriage at all, let's put it that way.
00:10:47 Why?
00:10:50 Well, I don't think they have a functioning relationship going on.
00:10:55 My mom's a screamer and a nag.
00:11:03 And dad was never around, actually.
00:11:06 At least for me.
00:11:07 But those two things often go hand in hand, right?
00:11:09 I mean, if the woman's really unpleasant, then the man is like, "Hey, I've got work to do.
00:11:14 I've got other things going on."
00:11:16 Right, okay.
00:11:16 Correct, yeah.
00:11:18 Sorry, was she always a screamer?
00:11:22 Did that change over time?
00:11:25 I guess, as you well know, Stefan, memory does tend to get a bit blurry in the past,
00:11:32 but as far back as I can remember, yes.
00:11:35 Maybe initially she didn't scream as much as at him, and she screamed more at me.
00:11:39 Okay.
00:11:41 But yes, as far as I can tell, I would say she's always been a screamer.
00:11:45 And was the screaming generally just tension, or was she screaming also
00:11:52 insults and aggression at you?
00:11:58 No, insults for sure.
00:11:59 It was all the moral lecturing, and I was a bad kid, and was making them unhappy.
00:12:05 Oh, so she wasn't just hysterical, she was also abusive, right?
00:12:10 Yeah, definitely.
00:12:12 God, I'm so sorry.
00:12:13 And what would she say to you as a little kid?
00:12:16 Honestly, I don't recall much as a little kid.
00:12:22 I remember when I was probably seven.
00:12:25 Yeah.
00:12:26 Yeah, when I was seven, actually, I found it on the computer recently,
00:12:29 because they were smart enough to keep it.
00:12:31 I wanted to...
00:12:34 She used to come pick me up at school, after school, in elementary school.
00:12:39 And at the time, I wanted to stick around and play with other kids.
00:12:43 And one day, she just lost it.
00:12:46 She essentially just left until I ran after her, after she threatened to do so.
00:12:50 And then back at home, she wrote me a two-page letter/contract.
00:12:56 Laying out how I was to behave, how I was to comport myself, how I was to
00:13:00 obey, essentially, her orders.
00:13:02 Under threat that if I...
00:13:06 She wrote you a bully contract when you were seven?
00:13:10 Yes.
00:13:12 And sorry, so you said you had to obey her, this, that, and the other,
00:13:17 under pain of what?
00:13:18 What were the consequences?
00:13:19 Well, it gets a bit blurry, but in the contract,
00:13:24 it said they would send me off to boarding school, abroad.
00:13:27 Oh, gosh.
00:13:28 And verbally as well, they used to tell me that if I kept making them unhappy,
00:13:35 they would end up divorcing because of me.
00:13:36 Oh my gosh, no.
00:13:39 Oh, how monstrous.
00:13:42 Oh, God.
00:13:42 I'm so sorry.
00:13:44 My gosh, that's just about as soul-crushing and immoral as can be imagined.
00:13:51 I'm so sorry.
00:13:52 God, what a...
00:13:54 Oh, that's terrible.
00:13:56 Do you have siblings?
00:13:58 No, I'm an only child.
00:14:01 Oh, gosh.
00:14:02 So they really...
00:14:04 You got all of their crazy laser focus, right?
00:14:06 Indeed, yes.
00:14:08 And you found the letter that your mother had sent you recently?
00:14:11 Yeah, I recalled...
00:14:14 I remembered that, as I said, she'd written that letter,
00:14:19 and I found the word file still on their computer.
00:14:23 Oh, you don't have a copy of it, right?
00:14:25 Well, I do now.
00:14:27 Can you read it?
00:14:28 If you want, I mean, it might be helpful.
00:14:33 It's in a foreign language.
00:14:34 Oh, it is? Okay.
00:14:35 It is in a foreign language, but I can try and see if I can translate off the cup.
00:14:39 If you could, I'm quite curious.
00:14:42 Bear with me a second.
00:14:52 Oh, yeah, no, no, I'm asking you outside the convo, so take your time.
00:14:55 So, dear, my first name,
00:15:06 since we can't really talk to you
00:15:09 because you always interrupt and you always find excuses,
00:15:13 and I can't help it to scream,
00:15:16 I thought I'd write you a letter so you can read at your own pace.
00:15:21 What I want you to know,
00:15:25 every time that you want to read it,
00:15:31 even when I will not be there,
00:15:33 I can't accept to be treated in this way,
00:15:35 and you know what I mean.
00:15:36 I'm the only, or one of the only mothers,
00:15:39 who takes as much care of her son
00:15:42 and who has put him before everything else,
00:15:46 and yet there's not one time where I
00:15:50 don't have to wait for you
00:15:51 while you ignore me and continue playing with your kids
00:15:58 as if nothing were happening.
00:16:00 I don't want to be humiliated to this point
00:16:02 when all the other moms and all the other women
00:16:06 are there watching me and nothing's happening.
00:16:11 So, since you're a big kid and you want to be autonomous
00:16:16 and you want to keep on doing whatever it is you do,
00:16:22 please continue.
00:16:24 I won't keep coming to pick you up.
00:16:28 We had agreed yesterday night on some rules,
00:16:33 but just a few hours afterwards,
00:16:37 you pretend that you've forgotten all about it.
00:16:42 Hence, I've forgotten that I'm your mom,
00:16:46 too bad.
00:16:46 I kid myself that I have a nice kid
00:16:51 like many other mothers,
00:16:53 a kid who adores his mom
00:16:56 and for whom his mom is the person that counts most in the world.
00:17:04 When you're not there in the morning,
00:17:07 I program how I come pick you up.
00:17:12 I envision you jump up to embrace me.
00:17:17 I tell you how I spend my morning
00:17:20 and then you do your homework
00:17:23 and then all happy and dandy,
00:17:26 I take you somewhere where you've got your afternoon activities
00:17:30 or we do something together.
00:17:32 Today, for instance, I thought we could have gone downtown,
00:17:36 but instead I see we have to argue
00:17:41 like every other day or like any day.
00:17:45 It's too bad that I gave up all those jobs in your favor
00:17:53 who you don't seem to appreciate.
00:17:55 Since this is not really not working,
00:17:59 I give you the last chance for the next three weeks
00:18:02 to make up for everything.
00:18:06 Otherwise, you know you're going to end up in boarding school.
00:18:10 I'm sorry that the situation is so bad at the moment.
00:18:12 My heart is in pieces and my eyes are all tears
00:18:18 because after all, in spite of everything,
00:18:21 I still love you so much.
00:18:23 Signed, your mom.
00:18:25 And then on the back is a couple of bullshit rules
00:18:29 as to what my afternoon activities were to be
00:18:36 and homework and how to sit properly
00:18:39 at meals and how to dress up and get cleaned up.
00:18:46 And what's it like for you reading this back
00:18:51 more than a quarter century later?
00:18:53 I don't know what to think of it.
00:18:58 It's on the one hand, I know it's not all in my head
00:19:02 because I have a paper copy or a hard copy at least.
00:19:05 It's terrible.
00:19:09 I've never treated a child of mine this way.
00:19:12 And I agree with you that it's terrible,
00:19:17 but what is it that strikes you in particular?
00:19:20 Everything.
00:19:22 The fact that she thought about writing me
00:19:26 this kind of a letter at age seven.
00:19:29 All the bullshit rules, all the lies.
00:19:38 And this like rancid level of manipulation.
00:19:41 Yeah.
00:19:44 Yeah.
00:19:46 Right.
00:19:47 And also, you make me scream at you.
00:19:51 Yeah.
00:19:53 All of that.
00:19:54 All of this.
00:19:56 Oh, and I guess I've just, if you forget that I'm there,
00:19:59 I guess I'll forget that I'm your mother, right?
00:20:01 So the threats of abandonment and all of this, right?
00:20:04 Yeah.
00:20:06 Now, why do you think your mother was this way?
00:20:12 And I'm not trying to excuse her, but I mean,
00:20:15 what do you think the bad thinking was
00:20:17 that produced these kinds of monstrous outcomes?
00:20:19 I think she's a narcissist,
00:20:22 but that still doesn't give a proper why.
00:20:26 I don't know.
00:20:27 She's just vitriolic.
00:20:29 Right. Okay.
00:20:34 So why do people...
00:20:35 I mean, it's a big question, right?
00:20:37 And I think it's important to puzzle this out.
00:20:40 Why do people manipulate and threaten and bully children?
00:20:44 I mean, we can say, well, but they have power
00:20:47 and they can get away with it.
00:20:49 It's like, well, yeah, but so, I mean, I have that power.
00:20:52 I could get away with it, but I don't do that.
00:20:54 So it's not in the nature of parenting.
00:20:57 Why does your mother scream and manipulate
00:21:01 and bully and threaten, right?
00:21:03 Does she get away with it, I guess?
00:21:05 Well, all parents can, so that doesn't limit to her.
00:21:08 So why would she...
00:21:11 Can you repeat the question? Sorry.
00:21:13 I think I didn't...
00:21:14 Yeah. So why would your mother...
00:21:16 I mean, I assume she does this to your father too,
00:21:19 like this sort of manipulation, bully and threat?
00:21:21 Yes. Not probably as explicit.
00:21:26 Right. Yeah, I guess.
00:21:28 But why does she do that?
00:21:30 What is the thinking?
00:21:39 Now she's responsible for it.
00:21:40 When I say, why does she do that?
00:21:41 I don't mean like she's possessed by a demon or it's determinism,
00:21:45 but why would she take this approach?
00:21:48 Why would she do this?
00:21:49 I guess, because it's always worked in her favor.
00:21:54 Okay. It's worked.
00:21:57 I'm not sure if it's the same answer I gave you earlier.
00:22:00 Okay. Let me ask you this.
00:22:01 Does she do this kind of stuff out of desperation or sadism?
00:22:09 Because when we're cruel to people, when we're vicious,
00:22:12 when we threaten and bully and so on,
00:22:14 there's generally, it's either because we just like doing it,
00:22:17 like it gives us a weird kind of sick pleasure to bully people,
00:22:20 or we're desperate for something and we don't have any clue
00:22:25 how to do it, how to get what we want any other way.
00:22:27 Well, given this choice, I would say she's desperate.
00:22:34 I get that sense too.
00:22:36 And that doesn't mean that it's not crushingly wrong to do this.
00:22:38 I just, I don't get a sense of sadism.
00:22:41 I get a sense of desperation.
00:22:43 No, I would say more desperation because even seeing,
00:22:47 she screams at her own mother as well.
00:22:50 Right.
00:22:50 And then comes back around and sobs and asks for forgiveness
00:22:56 and then repeats it the next day.
00:22:57 Right.
00:22:59 Right. Sorry, don't make me laugh because it's not funny.
00:23:01 Now, what is she desperate about?
00:23:05 What is, where is this desperation or what is this desperation coming from, do you think?
00:23:09 I don't know that she's wasted her life, I guess.
00:23:14 And why do you think she's wasted her life?
00:23:16 I don't know.
00:23:21 She's one of the things that's sort of implicit in the letter I read to you, but,
00:23:26 all the jobs they gave up for you and you're not even grateful.
00:23:30 Right.
00:23:31 Exactly.
00:23:32 So, this also ties in a bit to my life story now, because obviously I told you I moved abroad.
00:23:39 My parents moved abroad before I was born, before they actually got married.
00:23:44 My father moved for work and then similar situation.
00:23:50 My mom, well, they got married and then my mom struggled finding a job in the new country they
00:23:56 moved to.
00:23:57 Oh, like your girlfriend.
00:23:58 Yes, situation's a bit different in that case because she did speak the language, but
00:24:06 there was potentially a bit of prejudice, that's what they told me.
00:24:11 No, people didn't want to hire her because they sensed that she was morally corrupt and vicious.
00:24:18 I never thought about it this way, actually.
00:24:20 I mean, I've been a hiring manager, as you probably know.
00:24:24 I've interviewed like a thousand people.
00:24:26 I've hired like a hundred people.
00:24:27 And the pettiness, immaturity and instability, it's basically your major job to try and root
00:24:35 those out.
00:24:35 Right.
00:24:38 And not hire.
00:24:40 Because if you can imagine, this is how she's dealing with a seven-year-old.
00:24:42 Imagine the chaos.
00:24:45 And destruction of productivity and politics and manipulation and lawsuits that your mother
00:24:51 might bring to the workforce.
00:24:52 That's a fair point.
00:24:55 I mean, you couldn't, no responsible manager could ever hire someone like your mother.
00:25:00 It would just be, it would be crazy.
00:25:02 Like you would lose years of your life, the stress, you know, like it's terrible.
00:25:08 I mean, when I would occasionally get hired into new companies, my first
00:25:12 order of business was to scan my new employees and get the crazies out.
00:25:17 Right.
00:25:20 So no, it's not, unless it's prejudice against emotional terrorists, which I suppose is a
00:25:27 kind of prejudice, but I think it's a good one.
00:25:28 It wasn't any kind of bigotry, I assume that would keep her out of the workforce.
00:25:32 Yeah, that's just the narrative she's been recently always.
00:25:37 So the narrative was either that they were, you know, they were, you know, they were
00:25:42 they were, uh, didn't want to hire a foreigner or else the job was able to get to the, like
00:25:48 she would qualify for, they tell her she was overqualified.
00:25:50 Yeah.
00:25:51 Yeah.
00:25:52 Yeah.
00:25:53 Okay.
00:25:55 For what it's worth.
00:25:55 Yeah.
00:25:56 So she's not, she's not learned any lessons about taking responsibility in her life.
00:26:00 It's always other people's fault.
00:26:01 Okay.
00:26:01 Yeah.
00:26:03 And that's, that's a good way of saying, yeah.
00:26:05 So, um, yeah, she, she never, she never really worked.
00:26:11 And, but she was, she was, but sorry, go ahead.
00:26:15 Well, she didn't, she didn't, she didn't do that either.
00:26:18 I think, as you said, I was, I was in daycare, kindergarten, and then
00:26:23 a school kept me busy the rest of the time growing up.
00:26:27 So, so she was like, stay at home mom with one kid in daycare and then school.
00:26:33 Yeah.
00:26:35 So is your mom kind of lazy?
00:26:40 I guess.
00:26:41 Yeah.
00:26:41 No, no, don't guess.
00:26:42 I don't know.
00:26:43 I mean, I already have kinda in there.
00:26:46 And if you say, I guess, then we have two fogs, which don't make a hole.
00:26:50 So it seems to me if you have only one child and your kids, you put your kid in daycare,
00:26:56 pretty lazy.
00:26:57 And she even had a high cleaning lady as well.
00:26:59 Oh no.
00:27:00 I'm sorry.
00:27:01 Oh no.
00:27:02 She wouldn't do the groceries.
00:27:05 Oh my gosh.
00:27:07 She would do the groceries.
00:27:09 Yeah, she would go get the groceries.
00:27:10 That's so she could yell at the shop owners, I'm sure.
00:27:13 Okay.
00:27:14 Now she's, as you probably familiar from your mom, she can be very, very kind to strangers.
00:27:22 Oh, absolutely.
00:27:23 Yeah.
00:27:23 Now, cause she's about the status, right?
00:27:24 Does she come from a high status family?
00:27:29 Not really.
00:27:32 No, no.
00:27:32 In general, I would say no.
00:27:33 Grandfather was a policeman.
00:27:37 She did talk about in the letter, her potential and so on.
00:27:41 Was she well-educated or?
00:27:43 Yeah, she went to uni first.
00:27:46 The first generation to go to uni.
00:27:48 I'm sure you knew what she put there.
00:27:52 It was something related to languages.
00:27:56 I'm not exactly sure what the exact title would be, but she holds a doctorate.
00:28:06 She's a doctorate, that's a PhD.
00:28:08 Yes.
00:28:10 It's fantastic that society poured hundreds of thousands of dollars into educating your mother
00:28:16 so that she could drop you at daycare and go buy some fucking cabbages.
00:28:19 Oh, yeah.
00:28:22 It's just, I think of the opportunity costs of all of that kind of education,
00:28:28 you know, society could have got a doctor or something out of it, right?
00:28:31 But instead, okay.
00:28:33 So, your father was traveling for work a lot, is that right?
00:28:41 Yes, that's correct.
00:28:44 Yeah.
00:28:44 Okay.
00:28:45 I apologize for the swearing.
00:28:47 If that was upsetting to you, I'm sorry for the swearing.
00:28:50 No, I didn't even register it, Stefan.
00:28:54 Personally, I swear quite a bit and I want to work on that.
00:28:57 Okay.
00:28:58 I may not help you in this call, but maybe afterwards you can say don't swear.
00:29:02 Okay.
00:29:03 All right.
00:29:03 In my native language, swearing is sort of like water to a fish.
00:29:10 It's like punctuation, right?
00:29:11 Yeah.
00:29:11 Yeah.
00:29:12 So, when you were disciplined, I guess you got these bizarre letters,
00:29:20 this half-legalese abandonment threat letters.
00:29:24 Did you get spanked or hit or how else were you pressed?
00:29:30 So, go ahead.
00:29:33 I'm not exactly sure.
00:29:34 So, spanked for sure.
00:29:36 Hitting is that with a closed fist, closed hand.
00:29:38 Spanking is generally open hand, usually on the buttocks or lower back.
00:29:43 Hitting is closed fist or that could be hitting with implements, like with a
00:29:47 belt or a stick or a rolling pin or something like that.
00:29:50 Yeah.
00:29:51 I was always threatened with a belt and told to be grateful that I didn't get hit with a belt
00:29:55 because that's what apparently my father got.
00:29:59 But definitely spanked, potentially on the face as well.
00:30:03 I was slapped.
00:30:05 And how often would this happen?
00:30:10 It's very hard to tell in retrospect, but up to probably around the time I got to school.
00:30:18 And how often?
00:30:19 Once a week, once a month?
00:30:21 Daily.
00:30:24 Once every other week.
00:30:25 Once every other week.
00:30:26 Daily once a week.
00:30:29 Somewhere in that ballpark.
00:30:30 Okay.
00:30:31 So, maybe 30 or 40 times a year.
00:30:33 And it started, I assume, when you were very young and it ended around puberty.
00:30:38 Is that right?
00:30:38 No, it ended around when I started going to school.
00:30:42 Ah, okay.
00:30:44 Okay.
00:30:46 So, from my respect.
00:30:46 I remember actually, yeah, there's a memory that came back to me recently, was potentially
00:30:54 even them telling me that I made them, like, if I kept on making them hit me, people would
00:31:01 start asking questions because they would start seeing it at school.
00:31:04 Oh, so the hitting was bad enough that it would leave like bruises and marks?
00:31:08 I guess, yeah.
00:31:11 I'll be honest, I don't recall that.
00:31:14 I don't recall the force levels anymore.
00:31:16 No, but if they were concerned about you being seen in school or the injuries being seen
00:31:23 in school, then it must have been pretty hard.
00:31:26 Yeah.
00:31:28 Okay.
00:31:30 And they literally said, or something to the effect of, if you keep making us hit you.
00:31:36 Yeah, that's the memory that resurfaced recently.
00:31:41 It was the, I know memories can lie, but.
00:31:44 Well, I mean, I would not assume in this case, because it, memories, we can doubt our memories
00:31:52 when they don't act in accordance, or we don't remember things that are in accordance with
00:31:56 every other thing.
00:31:57 Yeah.
00:31:59 But this all fits the pattern, right?
00:32:00 I mean, if you grew up in the desert and you have a memory of a desert, it's probably a
00:32:05 real memory.
00:32:06 If you grew up in, I don't know, England and you have memory of a desert, then it probably
00:32:10 was just the food.
00:32:11 I'm just kidding.
00:32:12 All right.
00:32:12 So, the hitting was replaced with, I guess it was abandoned, and then there was yelling,
00:32:22 because they were afraid of being found out to be child abusers.
00:32:26 And that must mean that the hitting was pretty substantial.
00:32:28 Okay.
00:32:29 And then when you were in school, how was your social life as a whole?
00:32:36 Wild.
00:32:41 I would say wild, especially elementary school.
00:32:45 I skipped second grade.
00:32:48 So I went from first to third.
00:32:51 And I had a bit of trouble initially making friends in third grade, but then all of a
00:32:56 sudden, essentially, the entire grade was friends.
00:32:59 So that was pretty good.
00:33:01 And then secondary school, a bit of a similar thing.
00:33:08 Initially a bit tough.
00:33:11 Then I sort of made some friends, but never again as many friends as I had
00:33:20 in elementary school.
00:33:21 And then high school is a whole different story.
00:33:27 But in general, I would say quite a loner.
00:33:30 And I assume that you...
00:33:33 It sounds deterministic.
00:33:35 I'm sorry, go ahead.
00:33:36 No, I was saying it sounded a bit deterministic if I said I turned out to be quite a loner.
00:33:43 No, I mean, it's deterministic if you don't know the patterns, right?
00:33:47 If you can't figure out the causality.
00:33:50 So, like, I mean, if you don't know that smoking makes you sick, then you don't really have
00:33:55 much of a choice to stop getting sick, right?
00:33:57 To avoid that.
00:33:57 So when you were younger, is it fair to say that you weren't super comfortable having
00:34:08 friends over to your house because of your parents?
00:34:12 Or were they able to be civil or nice to kids you had over?
00:34:20 I guess initially, so when I was smaller, I would have friends over more often.
00:34:25 But I don't think it was so much like a conscious choice to stop inviting friends over and going
00:34:34 to other people's places afterwards.
00:34:37 I probably worded this very poorly.
00:34:40 Well, so you don't remember a time where you had friends over and your mother would yell
00:34:45 or be embarrassing, so she was able to...
00:34:47 No, definitely no, no, no.
00:34:49 Everybody used to love her.
00:34:50 It's like, "Oh, I wish I had your mom."
00:34:52 Okay, so she was a good chameleon, right?
00:34:55 Okay.
00:34:55 Yeah, yeah.
00:34:58 When you got older, you said high school was another matter.
00:35:01 Can you tell me what you mean?
00:35:02 Yeah, I guess I sort of fell in with the nerdy crowd.
00:35:15 Well, I was a year younger than, as I'd skipped, I was only in second grade, so I was a year
00:35:20 younger than most.
00:35:20 And then I went on and skipped another grade further down the line.
00:35:25 So I was always a bit the odd kid out, especially, well, initially, especially also when I was
00:35:34 just one year younger.
00:35:35 When puberty started kicking in, I was bullied quite a bit, thrown into the bin, like a garbage
00:35:44 bag, not a garbage bag, a garbage can in the schoolyard.
00:35:48 And was that mostly because you were younger, or was there some other reason, do you think?
00:35:53 I'm not blaming you, obviously, for being bullied, I'm just curious.
00:35:56 No, I don't know.
00:35:58 I guess it was just an easy pick.
00:35:59 I don't know, I was smart, probably the smartest boy in the class, and I think people were
00:36:06 also envious of that.
00:36:07 Right.
00:36:08 Well, I guess, yeah, because you were moved ahead.
00:36:10 Yeah.
00:36:11 So, you know, the funny thing is, well, it's not funny, but the inspiration was a textbook
00:36:17 we had for English, had that, I don't know, there was a scene somewhere in there, it's
00:36:24 like this guy called Ben, and they used to play Ben in the bin, and then they did it
00:36:28 with myself and some other kids as well, like the bigger ones picked on the...
00:36:34 And did you tell your parents?
00:36:38 Did they do anything to help?
00:36:41 I don't think I told them that time.
00:36:43 No, but I assume the bullying was more than once.
00:36:46 Yeah, the bullying was more than once.
00:36:49 There's another episode, they picked my beanie, you know, the cap I put on, and trying to
00:36:58 make you run after them, they obviously keep throwing it amongst them until you run out
00:37:04 of steam, and then they dropped it into a puddle on the ground, so it got all dirty.
00:37:09 Right.
00:37:10 So I could not tell them that case.
00:37:12 And then my mum wrote a letter...
00:37:13 Sorry, why couldn't you tell your parents?
00:37:15 I know, I could not tell my parents.
00:37:20 Oh, you couldn't, oh, because they're dirty, sorry about that, okay, my mistake.
00:37:23 Yeah, yeah.
00:37:24 And so your parents, they found out you were being bullied?
00:37:27 Yes, yeah, yeah, they must have found out, I mean, mum wrote a letter to the teacher...
00:37:36 She's a big fan for letters.
00:37:38 ...teacher writing class, which only made the situation probably worse.
00:37:41 So your mother wrote a letter, that's about it?
00:37:48 Like complaining.
00:37:49 Yeah, yeah, I know, I get it.
00:37:50 Yeah, yeah.
00:37:51 And your father, I mean, it would be your father's job, I assume, to deal with the bullying,
00:37:58 that's a bit of a bro thing, right?
00:38:00 Yeah, he always checking out because he didn't really speak the language, he was working
00:38:03 in a different language, so he sort of never interacted with his host country.
00:38:08 Okay, oh, so you were in the West at this point, is that right?
00:38:12 That's correct, yeah.
00:38:15 Okay, and sorry, just remind me how old you were when you came over?
00:38:18 I was just born...
00:38:22 Oh, newborn, okay, sorry.
00:38:24 ...in my home country, I grew up in my host country at the time.
00:38:30 Okay, got it.
00:38:32 Now, I guess you were two years younger in high school, is that right?
00:38:36 Yeah, yeah.
00:38:39 And so I assume that...
00:38:40 And then I lost another year, though, I lost a year back.
00:38:43 Oh, when I got hospitalized for anorexia.
00:38:46 Anorexia?
00:38:49 Yes, sir.
00:38:51 All right, I suppose we should talk about that a little bit, that's a bit of a new variable.
00:38:57 So what happened there?
00:38:59 I guess, to put it bluntly, I came back from a student exchange and stopped eating.
00:39:02 Well, you basically just gave me the definition of anorexia, but that doesn't give me any
00:39:10 understanding as to why.
00:39:11 Yeah.
00:39:13 I think sexuality, I had difficulty with sexuality.
00:39:23 Difficulty with sexuality.
00:39:24 And that was the way to, on the one hand, stave it off, and on the other hand,
00:39:34 try to starve your way to perfection.
00:39:37 Not sure if it makes any sense.
00:39:38 How old were you when you came back from the...
00:39:41 You said it was a student exchange program?
00:39:43 That was two weeks.
00:39:46 I was 15.
00:39:47 You were 15.
00:39:49 And so the exchange program was two weeks?
00:39:51 Yeah, it was just like with a host family.
00:39:55 I'm not sure if you've got it in Canada.
00:39:57 All right.
00:39:58 You just go abroad for two weeks and then to a host family, and then their child comes
00:40:03 to yours for two weeks.
00:40:04 All right.
00:40:05 And was there anything that happened when you were away that may have triggered the
00:40:13 eating disorder?
00:40:13 I was just hungry all the time.
00:40:16 We were always eating.
00:40:17 We were always eating, and I remember the people in the host country saying, "Oh, these
00:40:23 guys here, they're always eating.
00:40:25 They're always hungry."
00:40:26 Right, an itch boy.
00:40:28 I mean...
00:40:28 Yeah.
00:40:30 I remember that distinctly, though, for what it's worth.
00:40:35 And then, I don't know, there was a cute girl, and I was too shy to approach her as well.
00:40:45 And then some, pardon my French, dickhead jock, I would not have approached her.
00:40:57 And so they sort of ended up together, at least for the exchange.
00:41:02 Oh, so the cute girl was overseas?
00:41:07 Correct, yeah.
00:41:09 I'm sorry.
00:41:10 There was nothing really to go.
00:41:12 I mean, there was nothing really to do there, right?
00:41:14 I mean, you're heading back, so...
00:41:15 Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah.
00:41:19 Now, did you get the perception from the host family in the exchange that you were eating
00:41:24 too much, that that was bad?
00:41:25 No.
00:41:27 So, tell me, I understand, why did you stop eating when you came back?
00:41:30 I don't know.
00:41:34 I thought I had to be better.
00:41:36 I would have been rejected because I wasn't good enough.
00:41:38 And I thought my good enough, the problem lay physically.
00:41:43 Were you overweight?
00:41:44 Mentally, couldn't be.
00:41:45 No, I've never been, never had a weight issue in that sense.
00:41:51 Was this the first girl that you recall being very attracted to?
00:41:55 No.
00:41:58 No, there have been one or two prior to that.
00:42:01 So, help me understand.
00:42:02 So, this girl goes with the jock, right?
00:42:04 Yeah.
00:42:06 And do you think that had something to do with why you stopped eating?
00:42:09 Probably not, especially if you ask me.
00:42:12 So, you understand why you'd come back from this two weeks and not eat?
00:42:15 Yes.
00:42:17 I used to have a...
00:42:20 I would normally pick my fingers of skin, you know, in my elbows.
00:42:28 And whenever mom would catch me, when I was probably 12 or so, she would...
00:42:32 she would just, you know, she would just...
00:42:35 catch me when I was probably 12 or so, she would...
00:42:37 well, it was like probably a daily thing.
00:42:40 She would tell me, "Hey, if you keep doing that, no girl's going to want you.
00:42:43 No girl's going to want to be with you.
00:42:45 Nobody's going to want you."
00:42:46 And I think that dug its way into me that somehow I had to be perfect physically to be attractive,
00:42:55 to be considered attractive or be considered for a mate.
00:43:03 So, where did you get the idea that skinny was attractive?
00:43:10 Is your mom skinny or is there some... is your dad skinny?
00:43:13 Because you could easily have said, "Well, a jock got the pretty girl,
00:43:18 so I've got to go to the gym and start working out and drink a lot of protein shakes and whatever you do."
00:43:23 So, why would you consider...
00:43:25 I think that would have been the second stage.
00:43:27 That would have been the second stage, first to get really lean and then to bulk up.
00:43:32 Okay, but anorexia isn't just about getting really lean, right?
00:43:35 Isn't it sort of endangering your health?
00:43:36 Yeah, definitely.
00:43:39 So, why skinny?
00:43:42 To obliterate the body, I don't know.
00:43:50 To obliterate the body?
00:43:52 I mean, that's kind of abstract.
00:43:59 What's your family's relationship to weight and food and diet and so on?
00:44:03 So, weight, I would say, actually okay.
00:44:09 Like, there's nobody who's really overweight or overweight, really.
00:44:16 Food, let's just put it that way.
00:44:21 All the women in my extended family,
00:44:25 they keep trying to stuff your mouth with something.
00:44:29 It's unbelievable.
00:44:30 Like, my mother, my grandmother, my other grandmother,
00:44:35 aunt, grandaunt, I don't know what it's called.
00:44:38 Like, sisters of my grandparents, they were all,
00:44:41 "Eat this, eat that.
00:44:45 Do you want this?
00:44:45 Do you want that?"
00:44:46 It's incessant still to this day.
00:44:48 At least those are still alive.
00:44:50 But they themselves are not overweight, is that right?
00:44:53 Well, yeah, they're not overweight, no, I would say.
00:44:58 Maybe marginally, but not like-
00:45:01 Yeah, like, I mean, maybe just a little bit of middle-aged spread or whatever, right?
00:45:04 So, do you know why women try to stuff men?
00:45:09 When I've listened to your show long enough?
00:45:13 No, it's because they've no other nourishment to provide.
00:45:18 Yeah, that may be part of it.
00:45:21 But one of the reasons they will try and stuff their men is to make the men less attractive,
00:45:26 so that they'll put up with women who aren't very nice.
00:45:33 Okay.
00:45:36 So, I don't know why, because anorexia tends to be a female response.
00:45:43 Yeah.
00:45:45 I'm aware, yeah.
00:45:50 So, if your mother-
00:45:52 Makes the stigma even harder.
00:45:53 Sorry, go ahead.
00:45:54 No, it makes the stigma even harder.
00:45:57 Right, right.
00:45:58 No, and I'm not saying there's anything, I'm just saying that in general.
00:46:01 So, I would assume that it would have something to do with the female.
00:46:04 And if your mother is constantly trying to stuff your face with food,
00:46:08 then refusing food is refusing your mother, right?
00:46:11 Yeah.
00:46:13 Now, how long did the anorexia go on for?
00:46:18 A cute couple of months, and yeah, it was a latent couple of years.
00:46:28 And how did your parents respond to you not eating?
00:46:32 I assume you lost a lot of weight.
00:46:34 I did, yes.
00:46:36 Well, I got hospitalized twice.
00:46:40 First time was just, yeah, but it was never, it never got that bad.
00:46:48 That it had to be hospitalized, it was just probably easier to manage.
00:46:53 But it was never critical, not yet critical.
00:46:59 But I would say mom made a big fuss about it, and dad rejected me over it.
00:47:08 He said I should pull myself together.
00:47:10 I once walked, we were walking across the hospital yard once,
00:47:15 and it was the epileptics ward across the yard, I guess.
00:47:20 And he went, so it was just me and him, and he told me,
00:47:23 "Well, look at those guys, they've got real problems."
00:47:26 And then, I don't remember, I don't think I've said anything back to him at that time.
00:47:32 But what's your father's relationship to, does he get angry in the same way your mother does?
00:47:38 No, he blows up occasionally.
00:47:41 He just bottles it down.
00:47:44 Well, and leaves.
00:47:44 And then occasionally just, say again?
00:47:48 Well, and leaves, right?
00:47:50 I mean, he travels, right?
00:47:51 He works.
00:47:52 Not anymore.
00:47:53 Well, it's funny too, because if, you know, pull yourself together,
00:47:58 did he ever say that to your mom when she was getting all kinds of hysterical and abusive?
00:48:01 No.
00:48:04 Right.
00:48:05 So, you know, it's...
00:48:06 To her, it's irrational, that's the only thing.
00:48:09 Oh, he would call her irrational?
00:48:11 But he wouldn't say, "Pull yourself together,
00:48:13 there are people out there with real problems, stop being ridiculous"?
00:48:16 No, he wouldn't say that.
00:48:19 So, he would say that to you, but not, but he married this woman, right?
00:48:25 Yeah.
00:48:27 Okay.
00:48:28 And, you know, you face the fundamental, both challenge and opportunity,
00:48:33 of all of us who don't want our parents' lives.
00:48:35 Right, I mean, you don't want your father's life, right?
00:48:39 You wouldn't want to get married.
00:48:41 No.
00:48:41 To someone like your mom.
00:48:42 So, I mean, that's a very interesting and creative space to be,
00:48:46 because you don't want what your parents have, so you can't sort of slip into their train tracks.
00:48:53 But it's tough to jump the tracks, it's tough to not end up in that situation.
00:49:00 So, there's a great opportunity, but also a great challenge.
00:49:05 So, okay, so the dieting, the anorexia, it didn't have anything to do in particular with being
00:49:12 attractive, because it didn't work, right?
00:49:15 The girls weren't like, "Oh, wow, I can see his ribs, and he's in hospital, what a hottie", right?
00:49:19 Fair, yeah.
00:49:22 And you didn't experience any inappropriate sexual contact or
00:49:30 molestation or that kind of abuse when you were a kid, is that right?
00:49:33 Not as far as I know.
00:49:37 The only thing I've – so, none from adults.
00:49:40 The only thing that was a bit strange is I was probably seven or eight.
00:49:48 Another kid my age, we sort of had sex play in my room.
00:49:54 We would get naked, stripped down, and then have mock sex, I guess.
00:50:02 And this was another boy?
00:50:03 This was another boy, yes.
00:50:05 And then there was the same feel, let's put it that way, with another boy, same age as again,
00:50:17 probably also around the same time in my life, but where we have a holiday home.
00:50:26 So I would only see this other kid once a year, twice a year, maybe.
00:50:32 And was it that the other kids initiated this sexual reenactment?
00:50:39 Yeah, with the local boy.
00:50:42 So yes, both kids initiated, certainly the first time.
00:50:48 I think with the local boy, it only happened twice, I think.
00:50:54 And I was a bit disgusted with him.
00:50:56 And then with the other kid, I think it went on for longer, but it was, as I said,
00:51:02 I only saw him twice a year, I'd say.
00:51:06 But it must have gone for two years or three years.
00:51:09 And initially there again, it was initiated by the other kid.
00:51:13 But a couple of times into it, I was sort of looking forward to seeing him again and playing
00:51:20 lovers.
00:51:24 And when it first began, you said you were kind of disgusted by the first kid or the local kid.
00:51:29 Did it cross your mind to say, I don't want to play or let's go get a soda or something like that?
00:51:37 No.
00:51:39 No, I don't think it crossed my mind.
00:51:42 I was just disgusted, but didn't want chicken out.
00:51:45 Well, I mean, you weren't allowed to say no with regards to your parents, right?
00:51:51 You weren't even allowed to want to play with other kids after school without your parents
00:51:54 threatening to send you to boarding school, right?
00:51:56 Yes, that's correct.
00:52:01 I mean, can you remember a time when your parents accepted a perspective or opinion of yours
00:52:08 that went against what they wanted to do?
00:52:11 No.
00:52:13 What?
00:52:15 No.
00:52:15 Okay.
00:52:19 I mean, so you were starved of affection and acceptance and love,
00:52:22 and maybe you went on a hunger strike about that.
00:52:26 Because if you don't allow your kids to say no, they're unsafe in the world.
00:52:34 Sorry, go ahead.
00:52:35 No, I just was musing about, you used the word, obviously, starve.
00:52:41 I was starved for love and affection, and I starved myself for food afterwards.
00:52:45 Right.
00:52:48 Right.
00:52:49 Now, sorry, you were going to say?
00:52:52 No, I wasn't.
00:52:55 I was waiting for your input.
00:52:56 So what happened?
00:52:59 It was a couple of months of, I guess, the extreme anorexia,
00:53:03 and then just under eating for a couple more years.
00:53:05 Is that right?
00:53:05 Yeah, that's a good way to phrase it.
00:53:09 Yeah, under eating and sporadically overeating and sort of under eating again.
00:53:14 Sort of managing it that, quote unquote, managing it that way.
00:53:17 Oh, like a sort of binge.
00:53:19 Was it a binge purge thing or just overeating and then under eating?
00:53:21 No, I never purged.
00:53:22 Okay.
00:53:23 Your teeth, thank you.
00:53:25 I was just binge eating and eating shit.
00:53:26 Right.
00:53:26 I know.
00:53:27 Now, what about in your sort of mid to later teens,
00:53:32 what happened with regards to girls or attraction or dating or anything like that?
00:53:38 Date, I wouldn't really call it dating, went out a couple of times with,
00:53:47 there's one girl at school after I came back after anorexia.
00:53:51 She came, she was in, she moved from another place, she moved to our school.
00:53:57 It's interesting.
00:53:58 I thought I heard you say not anorexia, but anorexia,
00:54:03 which is a whole other kettle of fish, which we may or may not unpack,
00:54:09 but I thought that was interesting.
00:54:10 Yeah.
00:54:11 Okay.
00:54:11 So you dated this girl in high school, but it was...
00:54:15 Well, I wouldn't say I dated her.
00:54:17 You went out a couple of times, right?
00:54:18 A couple of times she came over, I went over to hers as well and just watched movies and
00:54:25 sort of dated, I guess, but
00:54:29 people might've, some people thought we were dating, but we never,
00:54:34 we never, yeah, we never formalized it.
00:54:38 We never made it like we're boyfriend and girlfriend.
00:54:41 We never kissed.
00:54:42 Did you hold hands?
00:54:45 I think we, no, I think we hugged, we embraced even on the couch,
00:54:49 like watching a movie or something, but I don't think we,
00:54:51 I don't recall us holding hands actually.
00:54:53 Now, what did you do with the teenage lust, teenage boy lust thing?
00:54:59 I mean, isn't that somewhat what drives us to overcome our fears of rejection and so on to ask
00:55:04 girls out?
00:55:05 You know, now you think, now that you make me think about it, I don't know.
00:55:12 It's probably the anorexia sort of kept it in check.
00:55:15 Oh, so maybe, maybe that was it.
00:55:17 Like, maybe, maybe it's like, well, if I'm well fed, I'm going to be lusty for a woman
00:55:23 or a girl and I'm going to end up with someone like my mother.
00:55:26 So I'll kill my sex drive through starvation.
00:55:27 Yeah, probably.
00:55:30 I used to do quite a bit of sports back then as well.
00:55:33 I used to especially run.
00:55:35 So I guess that got also rid of the excess energy and.
00:55:41 But do you remember, so you don't remember much as a, in your sort of middle, middle,
00:55:44 middle eighteens having a lot of lust, sexual desire and so on?
00:55:49 No, I remember crushes, like random crushes every other week.
00:55:55 Right.
00:55:56 But like crazy lust, no, I wouldn't say so.
00:56:00 I'm not sure I said crazy, but it's interesting that you'd add that, but lust.
00:56:06 Okay.
00:56:06 All right.
00:56:07 Yeah.
00:56:08 Okay.
00:56:08 So then you, what happened to you?
00:56:11 Did you go to university or what happened after high school?
00:56:13 Yeah, I left after high school and moved back to our home country.
00:56:18 And why did you do that?
00:56:20 I studied at uni, same uni my father went to actually, but different, different major.
00:56:30 Right.
00:56:31 And, and.
00:56:34 Sorry, go ahead.
00:56:34 No, sorry, go ahead.
00:56:36 Well, and so you, you graduated and then did you come back to the West?
00:56:40 Yes.
00:56:43 Not initially, actually.
00:56:45 Okay.
00:56:47 And.
00:56:48 So I started working there reluctantly because I got, was a bit fed up with the
00:56:53 salary situation and cost of living.
00:56:56 Right.
00:56:59 Because the salaries were quite low while the cost of living was quite high.
00:57:02 Right.
00:57:04 And then you came back to the West and then you got involved with this woman, right?
00:57:09 I actually met her while we're still at uni.
00:57:14 Uh, is she one of the reasons you came back?
00:57:19 Um, no, my home country is actually not that far from, from where I'm currently at.
00:57:27 So it's.
00:57:28 Oh, you said four hour drive, right?
00:57:29 Okay.
00:57:29 Got it.
00:57:29 Yeah.
00:57:29 It's about a four hour drive.
00:57:31 So yeah.
00:57:32 Now, how have things been going overall with your girlfriend?
00:57:40 Actually, apart from the, um,
00:57:46 from the arguments, a few arguments last year and a bit of the ultimatum thing, uh, it was
00:57:54 actually last year was actually fairly good.
00:57:56 I would say.
00:57:56 Last year was fairly good, but we're talking seven years, right?
00:58:00 So how things be going over enough.
00:58:01 Yeah.
00:58:02 Fair.
00:58:03 No, I would say, I would say good.
00:58:06 And why do you think you haven't prepared?
00:58:11 I mean, do you want to have kids?
00:58:12 Do you want to be married?
00:58:13 Is that something?
00:58:14 I do.
00:58:14 I initially, I initially, I, when we met, I was, uh, very much against kids.
00:58:21 I thought they were a huge nuisance and, uh, swallowed up all those resources and made
00:58:27 you unfree and, uh, essentially they would run your life.
00:58:32 But, um, I've since changed, changed quite a bit.
00:58:36 And I realized I would like to have medium sized family.
00:58:40 I'd like two or three kids, actually more three than two.
00:58:43 So when, when you met her, you talked about not wanting kids.
00:58:50 Is that right?
00:58:54 We didn't really, we didn't really talk kids initially.
00:58:57 I think we, at some point, at some point she said, well, she said she'd always wanted kids
00:59:02 or she, she always said she wanted kids.
00:59:05 I was initially, I was not really, I don't think it's, it's for me.
00:59:10 Okay.
00:59:13 So she wanted kids and you said, I don't want kids.
00:59:15 Yeah.
00:59:17 Okay.
00:59:17 And when did that begin to change for you?
00:59:21 I would say significantly the last two years, ever since I moved abroad again,
00:59:29 um, and I used to get like reading in the park.
00:59:36 I used to get glimpses occasionally.
00:59:38 What it would be like to, how cool it would be to have a kid and play with a kid in the park.
00:59:43 Right.
00:59:44 But that was like glimpses occasionally.
00:59:47 And then it was sort of the defense would move back in.
00:59:50 You would think of all the time you have to invest in them, all the effort, all the money,
00:59:54 all, all the cool things you couldn't, you wouldn't be able to do.
00:59:58 Right.
00:59:59 Yeah.
01:00:00 Now, did you want to get married and not have children or not get married?
01:00:10 No, I, I'd rather, yeah.
01:00:16 My priority is not marriage.
01:00:18 Let's put it that way.
01:00:19 I prefer the kids and not be married and, um, then necessarily have to be married.
01:00:27 I garbled that up.
01:00:28 Sorry.
01:00:29 No, I get it.
01:00:29 I get it.
01:00:30 Okay.
01:00:30 Now my issue, my issue is more the marriage than it is the children.
01:00:35 Let's put it that way.
01:00:36 And why is that?
01:00:36 Do you think?
01:00:40 Probably because I don't really believe there's something I know there are happy marriages.
01:00:46 I just don't know them.
01:00:47 Well, but do you think that it's the marriage that makes, sorry, do you think that it's a
01:00:53 marriage that makes, do you think it's the act of getting married that makes relationships unhappy?
01:00:57 No, if you phrase it that way, no, but I guess a part of me is worried that
01:01:05 as soon as the paperwork is signed, my, my balls are on the line.
01:01:10 Let's put it that way.
01:01:11 Ah, okay.
01:01:13 So this is a defense of your father.
01:01:16 So do you think that your father knew that your mom was a total witch for the capital B?
01:01:28 Do you think that your father knew that your mom was abusive and violent and hysterical
01:01:35 before he married?
01:01:38 He must have known.
01:01:39 Ah, sorry.
01:01:40 Ooh, I think he must've known.
01:01:44 No, do you think he did?
01:01:46 Must've theoretical, right?
01:01:47 You've known the guy.
01:01:48 Do you think he did?
01:01:49 Yeah, I think he did.
01:01:53 Okay.
01:01:53 So your mother didn't magically change after she got married, right?
01:01:58 That's right.
01:02:01 So I'm trying to figure out why you'd have this thing that a woman is nice and trustworthy,
01:02:07 you put a ring on her finger and she, demonic, right, whatever, possession happens.
01:02:12 So why would you, I mean, why would you have that thought?
01:02:17 That a woman changes, like the ring is like the ring of power,
01:02:21 corruption in Lord of the Rings, right?
01:02:23 Why would the ring-
01:02:24 It's a bit of a meme that way, Stefan.
01:02:27 There's tons of memes, it all depends what sticks to your heart, right?
01:02:32 This one sticks to your heart.
01:02:33 Yeah.
01:02:33 So why?
01:02:35 This one does.
01:02:35 Have you seen that in other people you know that they get married and the woman changes
01:02:44 or the man changes?
01:02:45 Is that something you've seen?
01:02:46 No, no, I would say no.
01:02:52 First time, no.
01:02:54 Okay, so you haven't seen it in your own family, you've not seen it in any other family,
01:02:58 but somehow the meme convinces you to go against all of your experience.
01:03:01 Why?
01:03:04 That's a very fair point.
01:03:05 Let me ask this another way.
01:03:14 What is your relationship like with your parents now?
01:03:16 Terrible.
01:03:19 Go on.
01:03:21 I avoid them as much as I can because it's just boring, bland conversation.
01:03:28 There's no substance, there's never any genuine question.
01:03:32 It's always about them.
01:03:34 Sorry, why the hell would you put up with that?
01:03:38 I don't understand.
01:03:38 They say the conversation is boring, you're part of the conversation,
01:03:42 why don't you bring up something interesting?
01:03:43 Because I'm scared to bring up something interesting.
01:03:48 Why?
01:03:50 Because I'll probably just get screamed at.
01:03:52 Okay, so let's say you get screamed at.
01:03:54 I mean, you're an adult, right?
01:03:58 You're pushing 30.
01:03:58 Let's say you get screamed at.
01:04:00 All right, let me ask you this.
01:04:08 How often do you see them or talk to them?
01:04:10 Once a fortnight, maybe.
01:04:15 See them not so much, maybe three times a year.
01:04:21 Right.
01:04:21 Now, if you were to get married, they would be there, right?
01:04:25 Yes, unfortunately.
01:04:28 Yeah.
01:04:29 Unfortunately, right?
01:04:31 Like you have no choice.
01:04:32 And then if you were to have children, they would be there even more, right?
01:04:36 Yeah.
01:04:39 Right.
01:04:39 So this is why you're stuck in this timeless zone, right?
01:04:43 Because if you get married and have kids,
01:04:47 mommy and daddy are going to be a lot more than a fortnight between visits, right?
01:04:52 I never thought about it that way.
01:04:58 That's why I asked if they would get closer, but they would, right?
01:05:02 Grandparents, right?
01:05:03 I guess, yeah.
01:05:04 I assume it's part of the culture that extended family is a value, right?
01:05:09 Yeah, to be fair, I grew up abroad as well.
01:05:17 They were the only family members that moved abroad.
01:05:19 No, I get that.
01:05:21 But I mean, it's part of their culture, right?
01:05:22 Yeah.
01:05:24 Okay.
01:05:25 So what-
01:05:27 Like my grandparents didn't visit us often.
01:05:29 I'm sorry?
01:05:31 Maybe visitors.
01:05:32 No, my grandparents didn't visit us that often.
01:05:36 But aren't your parents closer than your grandparents were?
01:05:38 Or physically?
01:05:41 Yeah, not substantial difference.
01:05:47 Okay.
01:05:47 It's like not a normal magnitude yet.
01:05:50 What does your girlfriend think of your parents?
01:05:52 She doesn't like my mother.
01:05:56 And does she know what your mother did to you?
01:05:59 Yes, she knows.
01:06:02 Okay.
01:06:02 So she doesn't like your mother, but she likes your father?
01:06:05 No, she doesn't really like him either.
01:06:08 She hasn't-
01:06:09 My father, whenever-
01:06:11 It's like he's not there.
01:06:14 When it's like dinners or something, he's barely there.
01:06:17 He doesn't really say anything much.
01:06:19 How often does your girlfriend see or talk to your parents?
01:06:21 See them about the same, I guess.
01:06:30 Three times a year.
01:06:33 Okay.
01:06:33 But she doesn't talk to them, I guess, every two weeks like you do, right?
01:06:36 No, no.
01:06:38 Thank God, no.
01:06:40 Okay.
01:06:40 And what do you think of your girlfriend's parents?
01:06:44 I don't like them that much either.
01:06:46 Why is that?
01:06:47 The mom's a bit-
01:06:50 Tries to make herself absent.
01:06:53 She tries to make a scene and jokes and stuff, but it's not funny, the things she says.
01:06:58 And she tries to-
01:06:59 Like whenever my girlfriend does something on the computer or when she makes a piece of
01:07:07 sort of art on the computer, her mother says, "Oh, you're so good at that."
01:07:13 Or she says, "Oh, that's not that difficult.
01:07:15 I can do it."
01:07:16 Or when she explains something to her on the computer, "Oh, yeah, but it's easy.
01:07:19 It's easy."
01:07:19 And then two minutes later, she comes back to her asking her to show it again because
01:07:23 she forgot how it's done.
01:07:24 So the mom's got to be in competition with her daughter?
01:07:29 Yeah, very much so.
01:07:33 Okay.
01:07:34 And the father, he was beaten severely as a child by his own mother.
01:07:45 That's what my girlfriend told me.
01:07:47 And then he sort of broke off contact with her for a very bad relationship with his mother.
01:07:54 And then now she's, I don't know, 90-something, I guess.
01:08:01 And now she's ill and for Easter, he bought her presents.
01:08:05 All of a sudden, he's, I don't know, he's back in touch with her.
01:08:09 But she's never apologized for anything and always treated him like shit all her life.
01:08:16 And I don't understand why he's acting that way.
01:08:21 You don't understand why your father-in-law is in touch with abusive parents?
01:08:30 You didn't just ask me that, did you?
01:08:31 Or you didn't just state that, did you?
01:08:34 I did.
01:08:36 You can't understand!
01:08:37 They've treated him like crap, he's still in touch with them and...
01:08:40 Did you really just ask me that?
01:08:43 How dissociated are you?
01:08:46 I did.
01:08:51 Well, what do you think of asking me that?
01:08:53 Foolish.
01:08:59 Well, you understand it's a little crazy, right?
01:09:01 Yeah.
01:09:03 All right, well, we'll get back to that.
01:09:06 I just wanted to...
01:09:07 My George just hit the floor.
01:09:08 It hit the floor because you said that and because you didn't even notice that you'd said that.
01:09:12 And how did your in-laws, your father and mother-in-law,
01:09:17 how did they treat your girlfriend when she was growing up?
01:09:19 My girlfriend never really spoke that much about it.
01:09:25 I know that her mother was very proud that she went to the hardest high school in the region.
01:09:33 And she's the first one to go to uni of her family.
01:09:37 I'm sorry, do you not know anything really about your girlfriend of seven years childhood?
01:09:43 Not that much.
01:09:52 She doesn't like to really talk about it.
01:09:55 She doesn't like to talk about it.
01:09:57 So isn't that kind of a red flag?
01:10:01 If you don't even know her origin story, how can you know her?
01:10:05 Why doesn't she like to talk about it?
01:10:14 Has she given you any hints as to anything negative that might have happened?
01:10:18 Not really, but I get the hints, which is...
01:10:24 I get the way she still...
01:10:26 I wouldn't say worships her parents, but...
01:10:31 Oh, so she's a big fan of her parents.
01:10:34 She's a little bit...
01:10:34 Say again?
01:10:36 She's a big fan of her parents.
01:10:38 She likes her parents.
01:10:39 Yes.
01:10:41 She's as usual shy to them.
01:10:44 They're not perfect.
01:10:46 Yada yada, they did the best they could with what they had.
01:10:49 All right.
01:10:53 Have you had much curiosity about your girlfriend's childhood?
01:10:56 I actually...
01:10:58 Yes, I think I would say so, because I've tried to break through with her, to her.
01:11:05 And what does she say?
01:11:07 What does she...
01:11:08 Does she say, "I don't want to talk about it," or "There's nothing to talk about."
01:11:12 What does she say?
01:11:13 She said, "Dad, my parents were fine.
01:11:17 They did the best they could.
01:11:18 I don't want you to poison me," or something like that.
01:11:23 Oh, okay.
01:11:24 She's projecting from your own parents onto mine.
01:11:27 Oh, she's got psychological explanations.
01:11:31 Excellent.
01:11:33 That's another just way of saying, "Shut up," but with more syllables.
01:11:36 Okay.
01:11:36 I mean, can you really evaluate how your girlfriend is going to be as a mother if you don't know
01:11:42 anything really about her childhood?
01:11:43 Yeah, that's what's one of the things, I guess, that's keeping me a bit
01:11:51 insecure about the way forward, Stefan.
01:11:53 So you really...
01:11:54 It's a blank that her first 20 years of life give or take, right?
01:11:58 I mean, it's mostly a blank to you?
01:11:59 No, I guess she was...
01:12:01 I guess.
01:12:03 I know she was...
01:12:04 Both parents were working.
01:12:05 She used to...
01:12:06 Initially, her grandmother would take care of her after school, until she passed.
01:12:13 And then I think...
01:12:14 Wait, her grandmother on which side?
01:12:15 Maternal, so not...
01:12:20 Not the abusive grandmother.
01:12:22 No, not the abusive one.
01:12:23 She's essentially no contact with her abusive grandmother.
01:12:29 Okay.
01:12:30 I know they used to tell her, that's what she told me,
01:12:37 "You're lucky you're so skinny and small, because otherwise we would have beaten the
01:12:42 shit out of you."
01:12:42 Maybe not in those words, but...
01:12:45 Right, sorry.
01:12:46 Her parents said to her, "You're lucky you're so skinny and small, or we would beat the
01:12:50 shit out of you."
01:12:50 I think probably not.
01:12:54 Well, whatever, something like that, right?
01:12:55 We don't have to have a verbatim, right?
01:12:57 That's what her parents said to her?
01:12:59 Her father, yes, apparently.
01:13:03 And does she have siblings?
01:13:05 No, she's an only child as well.
01:13:08 So, I mean, she was threatened with extreme violence as a child by her father?
01:13:15 Yeah, I guess it's fair to say.
01:13:19 Well, I guess you're just projected to have any criticisms of that, aren't you?
01:13:22 Jeez.
01:13:23 How emotionally available is she as a whole?
01:13:28 Because you're a total fortress.
01:13:33 I can't get any emotional connection with you at all.
01:13:35 I'm just wondering if that's the case with your girlfriend as well?
01:13:38 I mean, you've had no emotion and no animation over the course of this entire conversation.
01:13:46 It's all just, you know, "Mm-hmm, yeah, violence."
01:13:48 And the other and that.
01:13:50 And we might as well be talking about the most boring subject in the world,
01:13:53 rather than your own actual life.
01:13:55 Sorry, go ahead.
01:13:55 Yeah, no, I was about to sob earlier.
01:13:58 So that's not...
01:14:00 Well, you hide it well.
01:14:00 Okay, thank you.
01:14:03 Okay, so do you have an emotional connection or contact with your girlfriend?
01:14:07 Maybe you just don't have it with me.
01:14:08 That's fine.
01:14:08 I mean, I guess it's an unusual situation.
01:14:10 But what about with your girlfriend?
01:14:12 Do you guys connect emotionally?
01:14:13 Is she available to you?
01:14:16 Does she do the spontaneity and play of her own?
01:14:18 Her feelings connect you?
01:14:19 Yes, I think so.
01:14:22 I would say so.
01:14:24 She's very caring as well with me.
01:14:27 I had a medical incident last year, and she took care of me for a good 10 days until she had to go back.
01:14:35 Sorry, what was that?
01:14:39 10 days of what?
01:14:40 No, I had a bit of an accident last year.
01:14:44 Oh, an accident.
01:14:47 Yes, and so she actually came over, took care of me.
01:14:49 But no, that's not an emotional connection.
01:14:54 That's not emotional.
01:14:57 I mean, taking care of someone, I mean, nurses do that, right?
01:15:00 They were very nice to me when I had a colonoscopy.
01:15:02 So, you know, that's not a...
01:15:04 That's not the test.
01:15:07 When you're helpless and she takes care of you, that's not the test of emotional connection.
01:15:15 The test of emotional connection is if you say something that upsets her,
01:15:19 she asks you to tell her more and doesn't make it about her.
01:15:22 Okay.
01:15:27 Yeah, I would say recently she's been more that way.
01:15:33 She's been curious about...
01:15:34 Oh, okay.
01:15:36 So then she says, "You have some questions about my childhood, so I know it's uncomfortable for me,
01:15:44 but I want to know more about your questions and let's have an honest conversation about that."
01:15:47 Yeah, not that available.
01:15:53 I mean, she told you that her father threatened to beat the shit out of her
01:15:58 and said she was just lucky that he didn't, right?
01:16:01 Now, that's going to give you some concerns about how she might be as a mother, right?
01:16:06 I don't know.
01:16:10 I don't see her like her father.
01:16:12 You don't know if that would give you any concerns about how she might be as a mother?
01:16:15 If she's got unprocessed half-death threats in her childhood?
01:16:22 On the one hand, it does.
01:16:23 Yes, no, Stephan, let me rephrase it.
01:16:24 On the one hand, it does.
01:16:25 On the other hand, when I see her father, when I see her, I don't see them as alike.
01:16:34 You don't see them as alike?
01:16:38 I don't think she would model off of her father in that instance.
01:16:42 Sorry, but let's say she models off her mother.
01:16:48 Her mother approves of that, those violence or threats?
01:16:52 Her mother dated, got engaged to, got married and gave children to a man
01:16:58 who's capable of uttering those kinds of threats without regret, without remorse?
01:17:02 I don't...
01:17:06 Are you doing the split where it's like,
01:17:08 "Well, you know, the dad's really aggressive, but the mom's pretty nice"?
01:17:10 No, I wasn't even thinking about her mom either.
01:17:14 I was just thinking she's not that way, not like either her father or the mother.
01:17:20 All right.
01:17:22 So let me ask you this.
01:17:23 She knows that you were shut down a lot as a child,
01:17:31 that if you had disagreements with your parents or had criticisms of your parents,
01:17:36 that you would be threatened into submission, right?
01:17:39 Yeah.
01:17:41 So then you have questions, legitimate questions, about her childhood, and what does she do?
01:17:47 She shuts them down.
01:17:50 She does, knowing that's exactly what your mother did, right?
01:17:54 But tell me more about how caring she is.
01:17:56 If she's pushing the same wounds made by your mother to get the same effect
01:18:01 off your mother, I'm, you know, I guess it's nice that she took care of you when you were
01:18:06 in an accident, but that's not regular life.
01:18:10 Yeah, that's, you've got a point there.
01:18:17 I think it's one of the things I jotted down a while back as well about,
01:18:22 and you know, a funny thing, well, it's not funny, but when you brought up about
01:18:31 her potentially being like her father,
01:18:34 that's essentially how her father proposed to her mother,
01:18:37 like either we marry or we break up.
01:18:40 Oh, that's how her father proposed to her mother?
01:18:43 Yes.
01:18:45 Yeah.
01:18:47 And I personally, I don't ever said that she was going to be like her father.
01:18:50 I just said that she has unprocessed, some unprocessed trauma, and we don't even know
01:18:56 what it is. We've just seen a little bit, you know, but what I've heard is pretty terrible.
01:19:03 So she's got unprocessed trauma, and if she becomes a mom, it's going to get acted out.
01:19:11 Unprocessed stuff gets acted out.
01:19:12 That's the whole point of self-knowledge, right?
01:19:14 So you don't have to end up repeating what happened to you.
01:19:17 Because stuff remains unprocessed because it's justified, because we justify it, right?
01:19:22 As your girlfriend is justifying the bad behavior of her parents, right?
01:19:27 Well, they did the best they could with the knowledge they had, and they meant well,
01:19:31 whatever nonsense she's saying.
01:19:32 So because she's justified it, she's not going to have any barrier to repeating it.
01:19:37 Because we can't justify something and then say, "Well, it's totally just and fair and right,
01:19:42 but I'm never going to do it."
01:19:44 The only way we say, "I'm never going to do it," is saying it's fucked up and it's wrong.
01:19:49 That's how we don't do it, right?
01:19:51 Right.
01:19:54 I mean, if you say to a kid, "It's totally right and fair and just to shoplift candy
01:19:59 bars, just don't get caught," and then we punish them for doing that, that would be
01:20:03 a trap.
01:20:03 That would be kind of crazy, right?
01:20:04 So she justifies what happened to her as a child, which means, most likely, she's going
01:20:13 to recreate it with your children, and you don't even know what that is.
01:20:16 But you know that you get rejected if you even ask, and you get insulted.
01:20:25 Because when she says, "You're just projecting from your own family," that's an attack.
01:20:29 That's not even, "I don't really want to talk about it.
01:20:31 I understand you've got questions.
01:20:32 I'm just not comfortable talking about it."
01:20:34 She's like, "No, you're so immature and so lacking in self-knowledge that you don't
01:20:39 even know that you're projecting from your family."
01:20:42 Mm-hmm, yeah.
01:20:43 So that's an insult.
01:20:44 Yeah.
01:20:44 Is that fair to say?
01:20:47 I think that's fair to say.
01:20:50 I can also see that she snaps.
01:20:52 It's like whenever I question her parents or how she was raised by her parents, it's
01:21:04 like she snaps out of it.
01:21:05 It's like she gets possessed by something and sort of snarls.
01:21:11 Right.
01:21:13 Okay, let's talk about her dad, right?
01:21:17 Yeah.
01:21:20 So has her dad ever sat you down and said, "Okay, listen, son, let's be frank.
01:21:26 Let's get real here.
01:21:27 You've been dating my daughter for a while now.
01:21:30 What's your plan?
01:21:33 What are your intentions?
01:21:34 What's going to happen?
01:21:35 Because you've been dating for a couple of years.
01:21:39 I'm not hearing—"
01:21:40 Yeah, that never happens.
01:21:41 "Let me—I've never heard any talk about marriage."
01:21:43 And, you know, she obviously cares about you a great deal.
01:21:46 You care about her a great deal.
01:21:47 Do you not want to get married?
01:21:50 Do you not want to have kids?
01:21:52 I mean, I've got to look out for her because she's my daughter and I love her.
01:21:55 So let's have a frank discussion, man-to-man, about what your intentions are.
01:21:59 No, nothing of the sort.
01:22:03 Do you think that would be a reasonable thing to do as a father?
01:22:09 Yes, yes.
01:22:10 Of course it would be.
01:22:10 Of course it would be.
01:22:12 So—and—or his mother might do that too, but it's more likely to be the father.
01:22:17 So why hasn't her father done that?
01:22:20 Who?
01:22:30 I mean, I would hope that you would do that to your daughter if she ended up
01:22:35 burning up glorious fertility years on some relationship where there was not any sense of a
01:22:40 future.
01:22:40 You'd say, "Well, what are you guys doing?"
01:22:42 I mean, maybe sit both of you down, but certainly one of you.
01:22:46 I mean, what's happening here?
01:22:48 Like, what's going—you guys are just kind of bumping along.
01:22:50 Like, what's your life plan?
01:22:51 What's going on?
01:22:52 No, I guess he doesn't care.
01:22:55 Well, I don't know, but that would be an act of caring, right?
01:22:59 Yeah, sorry, it was in response to your—
01:23:03 No, no, no, what I mean is I don't know if he doesn't care.
01:23:05 I mean, it's impossible for parents to not care at all.
01:23:08 I mean, it can be negative or whatever, but—
01:23:10 Maybe he doesn't care enough.
01:23:12 I don't know.
01:23:12 Well, it's kind of weird, isn't it, to—his daughter's now seven years into a relationship
01:23:19 and has no proposal, no ring, no promise, no nothing, right?
01:23:30 Most of her 20s have been burned up in this relationship, that if it doesn't work out,
01:23:36 if you guys do break up, she's going to need a couple of years to get over it,
01:23:40 so then she's going to start, what, trying to have a family when she's in her early to mid-30s?
01:23:45 Starting to date, starting—like, it's a catastrophe potentially for his daughter, right?
01:23:50 Yeah.
01:23:52 And fathers, if you care about your daughters, you try not to let catastrophes happen to them, right?
01:23:59 So what the fuck is he doing?
01:24:00 Not being there, I guess.
01:24:07 I don't know what's going on, but he's there for the—see, he's there for his
01:24:11 own mother, who abused him, he's there for her, but his own daughter?
01:24:19 I don't know, it's a weird thing.
01:24:23 I don't know when men just got kicked out of any kind of responsibility as far as this stuff goes.
01:24:27 He does a bit what my mother does in general, she, like, takes care of all the petty shit,
01:24:32 driving people places, going grocery shopping 15 times because every time she forgets something.
01:24:39 Or like your girlfriend taking care of you when you were in an accident.
01:24:42 But not listening to you when you have questions about her childhood
01:24:49 because you might want to have kids with her.
01:24:56 All right, let's go back to your mother.
01:24:57 If that's all right.
01:24:59 So why does your mother write these letters?
01:25:03 Why does she scream?
01:25:04 Why does she manipulate and bully and threaten?
01:25:07 I'll tell you why, and then you can tell me if it fits, right?
01:25:12 I mean, it doesn't mean it's a fact.
01:25:15 Have you ever been in a situation where you desperately need someone to do something,
01:25:20 but you have no credibility with them?
01:25:22 You hit the nail on the head, Stefan, all the time.
01:25:29 That's the job.
01:25:31 That's the gig.
01:25:32 Because your mother wants you to listen to her, wants you to, I guess, quote, obey her.
01:25:41 But she doesn't have any credibility with you.
01:25:44 Your mother wants you to come running to her at the end of school
01:25:49 and not want to go and play with your friends, right?
01:25:52 Because she wants love, she wants loyalty, she wants affection, she has this fantasy, right?
01:25:57 He owes me the dopamine of love, right?
01:26:00 I've paid by being his mother.
01:26:04 He damn well owes me.
01:26:06 You know, if you pay for something and the person doesn't deliver, you get angry, right?
01:26:13 Because they've just stolen from you, right?
01:26:16 So if you pay by being a mother, then your kid owes you the dopamine of love.
01:26:21 And if your kid doesn't pay, you can get as angry as you want, because they owe you,
01:26:26 and they better pay.
01:26:29 Allegiance, yeah?
01:26:31 What's kind of, well, love, whatever, making her feel good, right?
01:26:35 Yeah.
01:26:35 Now, that's called being entitled, right?
01:26:39 I mean, it literally is the same as a man saying, "A woman owes me sex because I bought her dinner."
01:26:44 Now, of course, a woman doesn't owe you sex if you bought her dinner.
01:26:48 I don't care if you bought her a yacht, she doesn't owe you sex.
01:26:50 She doesn't owe you sex, right?
01:26:51 Right.
01:26:53 And of course, if you were to say to a woman, "Do you owe a man," forget about the sex part,
01:27:00 "Do you owe a man loyalty, love, and affection if he buys things, pays for dinner?"
01:27:09 They'd say, "Well, no, of course not."
01:27:12 In fact, I've seen this, you've seen this a million times on social media, you know,
01:27:15 this incels, they're so terrible because they think that women owe them something and blah,
01:27:19 blah, blah, right?
01:27:20 You can take a woman out for dinner 10 times, 200 bucks a pop, $2,000, she owes you nothing.
01:27:25 Well, I'm not going to disagree with that.
01:27:29 It's not a contract.
01:27:30 But then, if you say to women, "Do children owe their parents affection just for giving them a
01:27:39 roof over their head and food?"
01:27:40 Because the same principle, right?
01:27:43 Give you stuff, owe me affection.
01:27:46 The difference being that the woman chooses to go on the date, the child does not choose to be
01:27:50 there.
01:27:50 So, your mother wants something from you that she believes you owe her.
01:27:56 And when you don't pay her what you owe, she initiates quasi-legal proceedings against you.
01:28:08 This is why I asked you to read that letter.
01:28:09 That letter is like a legal pleading document, right?
01:28:12 You're on her.
01:28:13 Here's the reasons why, right?
01:28:16 Right.
01:28:16 This is what you would do if somebody, like if you give somebody $10,000 and they're supposed
01:28:23 to give you a used car, they've taken the $10,000 and then they block you, you're going to send
01:28:29 them a letter, right?
01:28:30 Here's what you got to do, here's why.
01:28:33 If you don't do it, these are going to be the negative consequences, I'm going to go to the
01:28:37 next level, and so on, right?
01:28:39 Yeah.
01:28:40 So, this is a legal letter.
01:28:44 Your mother's suing you for wanting to play with your friends rather than be with her.
01:28:49 I'm only half kidding about this.
01:28:51 No, it's the way I've always perceived it as well.
01:28:57 So, when you want something from someone, this is why I asked earlier about sadism versus
01:29:03 desperation.
01:29:04 So, your mother wants you to like her.
01:29:08 Your mother wants you to love her.
01:29:13 You, I assume, as a child, did not particularly like or love your mother.
01:29:18 Is that a fair thing to say?
01:29:19 I don't know, Stefan.
01:29:25 On the one hand, I remember all the...
01:29:27 I guess the Donna I didn't know.
01:29:30 The Donna I was terrified of her, actually.
01:29:32 Well, I think it's tough to love people who threaten and hit you.
01:29:38 Yeah.
01:29:40 I mean, wouldn't you say?
01:29:41 Yeah, yeah.
01:29:42 I mean, if a woman said, "My boyfriend is constantly threatening and beating me to the
01:29:48 point where he's scared I'm going to be out in public and he's going to get arrested,"
01:29:52 and she said, "But I love him," what would you say?
01:29:54 What the hell are you saying?
01:29:58 No, you don't.
01:29:59 I mean, you may have some sort of trauma bond, and of course, we do have to bond with our
01:30:04 parents because they're our means of survival, but that's not love.
01:30:08 Let's not insult the term love by saying it applies to parents who treat their children
01:30:12 wonderfully and parents who insult, threaten, scream at, and beat their children.
01:30:16 So your mother wanted the fruits of love without the work of love.
01:30:30 Your mother wanted the fruits of being virtuous without actually being virtuous.
01:30:35 So what people do, and this is what abusers do in general, is they act like complete shitheads
01:30:41 and then they imagine that the only reason they acted badly is because their children misbehaved.
01:30:54 Right?
01:30:55 Right.
01:30:56 So if somebody owes me $10,000 and won't pay it, I'm going to get angry at that person
01:31:01 and I'm going to say, "I'm angry because the person is not paying me the $10,000 and I really
01:31:07 need it. I've got to pay my taxes," or something like that.
01:31:09 So I'm angry and I feel kind of helpless, but I'm owed $10,000 and if this person would pay it,
01:31:17 I wouldn't have a problem, but because this person is not paying the $10,000,
01:31:20 I'm really angry at them.
01:31:21 So if somebody were to say, "Why are you angry?" I'd say, "Because the guy won't pay me the $10,000
01:31:26 he owes me." Does that make sense?
01:31:29 Yeah, yeah, it does.
01:31:31 So abuse is when you create an imaginary debt
01:31:34 that your children owe you something.
01:31:38 I feel like that's true.
01:31:39 Yeah.
01:31:40 I'm sorry?
01:31:40 Yeah, I was about to say that the kid has to repay.
01:31:45 Yeah, it's, "Hey kid, I'm your mother. I gave birth to you. I carried you for nine months. I
01:31:50 breastfed you. I slept half the night." Sorry, go ahead.
01:31:54 Gave up my career for you.
01:31:57 There you go. There you go. I could have been—
01:31:59 That was explicitly said.
01:32:01 Yeah, that was explicitly said. I gave up everything. I've got a PhD.
01:32:04 I gave up everything for you. You owe me, right?
01:32:08 It's psycho.
01:32:11 It's completely psycho.
01:32:14 And it is how the fist is drawn back to punch. You owe me.
01:32:27 The imaginary debt that is put upon children is the excuse for abuse.
01:32:31 You owe your mother nothing because you didn't choose to be born. You didn't choose her as a
01:32:41 mother. You didn't choose to stay. It's cannibalistic. You want to feed off your children in that way.
01:32:52 My daughter owes me nothing. Now, she does enjoy spending time with me. We do enjoy going
01:32:58 places together. We're going out for the day soon, just the two of us, and I don't have to write her
01:33:06 threatening letters to get her to do that. We enjoy each other's company. She doesn't owe me that
01:33:11 because I made the choices in the relationship she didn't.
01:33:21 We owe our parents justice. We owe our parents a fair evaluation of their characters and behavior,
01:33:28 but nothing else. Nothing else. I mean, can you imagine if there was a culture,
01:33:36 and there are cultures where a woman can get kidnapped and be forced to marry?
01:33:41 I actually knew a woman once who told me this story that she was in India and she was kidnapped
01:33:46 and she was raped and she was forced to give birth and she was forced to be married and
01:33:50 all of that because I think people were trying to claw their way up the caste system or something
01:33:54 like that. It's just absolutely appalling story. Now, if a woman gets kidnapped and forced married,
01:34:00 do we then say you can never get divorced, you owe your enforced quote husband, you owe him
01:34:13 everything, and you must obey and worship him for the rest of your life? No. No, because she didn't
01:34:20 make that choice to be in that relationship and children don't make a choice to be in a
01:34:24 relationship with you, which is why you have to treat them the very best because that choice
01:34:30 comes along. My daughter, when she becomes an adult, she doesn't have to talk to me at all.
01:34:35 So, it's incumbent upon me to make that worth her while.
01:34:41 Yeah. Yeah. Which is exactly what my mother is unable to do.
01:34:48 Well, I mean, to act there makes you want to leave. I'm sorry about that. Yeah.
01:34:55 And now, doesn't your girlfriend to some degree think that you owe her marriage?
01:35:04 Shit, Stefan, to some part of me thinks that as well. I've used up so much of her time.
01:35:17 Well, it certainly is true that but you know, she's an adult, she made the choice.
01:35:21 And she chose, she chose, she chose to not tell you about her childhood,
01:35:31 other than a couple of massive warning flags. But she made that choice. She made the choice to say,
01:35:41 marry me, without knowing my history, have children with me without knowing about my childhood.
01:35:47 And she insulted you for even wanting to know.
01:35:52 That's a choice that she made. She's made that she's made that choice. She knows about your
01:36:00 childhood. She knows, I assume that it's been helpful and valuable for you to talk about your
01:36:04 childhood to be honest about your childhood. And she has chosen to protect her parents,
01:36:15 rather than connect with you. So she's living for the past, not the future. She's living for
01:36:22 their preferences, not your legitimate needs in order to feel safe and secure. She knew
01:36:28 that you grew up with an aggressive mother. She tells you that she was verbally aggressed against
01:36:35 extremely as a child. And she won't tell you anything more. How on earth are you supposed
01:36:42 to trust a woman who knew you grew up with a psycho aggressive mother and won't tell you about
01:36:50 her own childhood, other than a couple of clues that she was crazily aggressive against verbally,
01:36:55 and God knows what else, right? We don't know what else.
01:36:58 So we come, as you know, with instruction manuals. We come with histories. And the
01:37:09 histories are instruction manuals. So you come with an instruction manual called,
01:37:14 "It's tough for me to trust women.
01:37:20 And it's easy for me to be bullied and intimidated by women." Right?
01:37:25 So someone who loves you should do what? A woman who loves you should do what?
01:37:31 Not bully me. Yeah. Listen to me. Listen to you, not bully you, and reassure you
01:37:40 that she will never behave as your mother did. Because you come with a big...
01:37:47 That's the thing that drives her up the wall. Whenever I say, "That's just what my mother does
01:37:52 or did or would do," that drives her up the wall. In what circumstances do you say that?
01:37:58 I don't know. Even the ultimatum thing, what I said is like, "This is..."
01:38:05 No, but was there other things?
01:38:08 Threatening the bond.
01:38:09 Yeah. Were there other things that she has done or said that have reminded you of your mother?
01:38:15 Occasionally she nags. Not sure. She's not well half the time. That's unfair.
01:38:25 Not well.
01:38:25 She's frequently unwell. I don't know. Headache, stomachache, tired, fatigued.
01:38:33 Oh, so she can be naggy if she's tired. Well, no wonder you hesitate about having kids with her,
01:38:40 because when you have kids, it can be a little tired.
01:38:45 Fuck. Never made that connection either.
01:38:50 What else?
01:38:50 I don't know. Sometimes she can get super petty.
01:39:00 Like what? Can you give me an example? I'm not doubting you. I'm just not sure what you mean.
01:39:06 I don't know. A couple of weeks ago, it was some local elections thing or something, and she went
01:39:15 on and on and on about some idiot she knew apparently got elected.
01:39:19 And she went on for like half an hour about... That was with her father as well.
01:39:26 About, "It's unbelievable how fucked up this world is. These kinds of idiots make their way up to
01:39:33 get elected even," and this and that, and just went on for half an hour. But it was a midwit
01:39:38 and a stupid ass. And that was a bit... It felt like she had something personal underneath it,
01:39:49 all this looking at the small...
01:39:51 Well, isn't that her mother being superior to the world?
01:39:56 Yeah. I guess it is.
01:40:00 Anything else?
01:40:09 No. Another thing she said to me is recently that...
01:40:12 No, she's been quite stressed recently with work and our long distance thing.
01:40:22 And at some point she was, "Look, I'm all burnt up. I'm half burned out. And it's all because of
01:40:28 you because we've got this long distance thing going on. I don't know where I stand."
01:40:31 Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. She didn't blame you for her being upset, did she? She knows about
01:40:36 your mother, right?
01:40:37 She did, Stefan.
01:40:39 She said, "I'm stressed and burned out, and it's all because of you."
01:40:44 Yeah, she did. I told her. That's exactly what my mother did as well.
01:40:50 And did she catch herself and say, "Oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry. Oh, my gosh."
01:40:54 No, she didn't say that.
01:40:55 What did she say?
01:40:56 I don't know. I think probably she said, "Don't you dare say that I'm not like your mother."
01:41:05 Oh, so she acted like your mother. You said, "You're acting like my mother."
01:41:09 And then she got even more aggressive, just like your mother.
01:41:12 Yep.
01:41:15 Dude.
01:41:17 Yeah.
01:41:18 Dude.
01:41:21 Dude.
01:41:21 Okay, let me ask you this. What has she taken huge responsibility for in her life or your
01:41:30 shared life?
01:41:30 Um...
01:41:37 I can't come up with anything, Stefan.
01:41:42 I mean, something at work, does she say, "Well, you know, I did do this, that, or the other,
01:41:48 so I can understand why the person is upset, and that makes sense."
01:41:51 What level of self-ownership does she manifest?
01:41:55 Not that much. She doesn't see herself as she comes across. She comes across
01:42:06 to strangers a bit off-putting, a bit very cold, keeping people at a distance, shutting down.
01:42:13 I'm not sure if that answers your question, though.
01:42:18 So, can you think of a time when she said, "That's 100% me. My bad. This is all on me."
01:42:25 No. In general, she jokes that it's always my fault. That's her
01:42:31 stupid joke. But then when I push back, she takes some ownership.
01:42:38 But I don't think she's ever heard her say, "It's 100% my fault."
01:42:42 Right.
01:42:45 Or 100% on her.
01:42:47 So, the only thing that makes it possible for us to love someone is self-ownership.
01:42:51 That's the price you pay. The price people pay for blaming others is to not be loved.
01:42:58 Because we can only love a cause, not an effect. Because virtue is a cause, not an effect.
01:43:04 Virtue is something that we decide to do of our own volition,
01:43:07 and we can't love a shadow. We can only love the person.
01:43:15 And so, if she doesn't take self-ownership and say, "That's 100% me." Because in life,
01:43:21 in general, things are 100% you. They're 100% me. They're 100% her. I like to aim for 150%
01:43:29 because I have the weasel out part, like I think most of us do. So, I aim for 150%.
01:43:34 Like, it was late for the call today, and I said, "I wasn't reminded.
01:43:42 I'm sure that was me. Like, I didn't set the reminder or something like that."
01:43:45 Yeah, yeah, you didn't.
01:43:47 Right. So, I didn't say, "Well, it was too early. I don't know why you wanted it that early."
01:43:52 Like, whatever nonsense that would be, right? And I appreciated your patience and apologized and so
01:43:59 on, right? So, I mean, this is just a little example. I didn't, you know… Well, my mom used
01:44:04 to drag me out of bed really early, so I'm not used to it. Like, you know, whatever nonsense I
01:44:07 could come up with, right? Or just pretend that nothing happened. "Well, let's get started,"
01:44:14 you know, without recognizing that it was late. So, if you can't think of a time when she's taken
01:44:20 100% self-ownership, what do you love? And that's the big question, right? Because that's the
01:44:27 question that's foundational, I think, to this situation. So, if you can tell me, what do you
01:44:34 love about your girlfriend? I would have said she's kind, but I know that she can be kind,
01:44:46 and at times she can be vicious. Right, which means it's a whim. A virtue is that which you
01:44:52 do consistently, right? I mean, I can't say I'm a great golfer if I play one hole accidentally
01:44:59 really well. I'm a good golfer if I do it consistently, right? And I'm virtuous if my
01:45:04 kindness is consistent. And the virtue is when it's difficult, right? Yeah. Yeah.
01:45:16 So, what do you love?
01:45:26 Honor, courage, honesty, directness, responsibility, maturity. What do you love?
01:45:34 I wouldn't say any one of the ones you mentioned are actually unalloyedly applicable.
01:45:45 Okay, let me ask you this. What do you really admire about her?
01:45:55 And I would have said that she puts up with me.
01:45:57 Yeah, that's a cop-out, and that's the general bro thing of
01:46:01 spineless appeasement, you know? "I can't believe she's stuck with me all these years!"
01:46:06 So, no, what do you genuinely admire about her?
01:46:10 And in general, it should be something independent of the relationship. Sorry, go ahead.
01:46:17 Yeah. No, her idea of raising children and being a happy family and the prospect of that.
01:46:26 Sorry, what are her ideas about raising children? How is she
01:46:29 going to be as a parent? What's her philosophy of child raising?
01:46:33 Oof. I don't know. It's probably just more an image I have in my head than what she's…
01:46:43 Wait, hang on, hang on. You've been together seven years. You want to have kids. You said
01:46:48 two, three kids, preferably three. So, you've been with her for seven years. You don't know
01:46:53 about her childhood, and you don't know how she wants to raise children. Does she want to
01:46:58 stay home with kids? So, initially, she said – that's another red flag for me – she said she
01:47:07 didn't want to be dependent upon me as a breadwinner. Whenever she wanted a pair of
01:47:12 shoes or a haircut, she didn't want to come to me and beg for it, essentially.
01:47:18 But I pushed back. I said it was unfair to me, and then I wished I would like her to stay home
01:47:29 with the kids, to raise the children and not have some idiot stranger in some underpaid daycare.
01:47:37 Take care of my kids and transmit whatever values they transmit.
01:47:41 Sorry, let's just back up a second here. Sorry. You said you wanted her to stay home,
01:47:46 and she said, "I don't want to have to beg you for grocery money."
01:47:50 Well, it wasn't quite grocery money, but…
01:47:55 Haircuts, money, whatever, right?
01:47:59 Yeah.
01:48:00 So, she doesn't want to be dependent upon you,
01:48:03 and she doesn't want to beg you to give her money for legitimate expenses.
01:48:09 Yeah.
01:48:13 Help me understand. What the hell is she talking about?
01:48:17 Sure. The way she would frame it is, it's more not necessary expenses, but
01:48:24 whim purchases or whatever she fancies.
01:48:27 Okay.
01:48:29 Sorry, does she have the view of you as some sort of Turkish sultan
01:48:34 that's going to cut her fingers off if she reaches for the gold purse without permission?
01:48:37 Like, what does that mean?
01:48:38 No, she says I'm the chief.
01:48:40 That you would be 100% in control of the money,
01:48:42 and she wouldn't have, what, a credit card or a checkbook or access to cash? Is that something
01:48:51 you've said? Like, "I want you to stay home, and you'll have to beg me for spending money."
01:48:56 No, it was never something I said.
01:48:57 Okay, so what is she... because you understand, this is a total NPC,
01:49:02 brain-dead feminist talking point.
01:49:03 I know.
01:49:05 Okay, so, but you told me right at the beginning, she's not an NPC.
01:49:08 Yeah, you're right.
01:49:12 So, that's a huge insult, isn't it?
01:49:14 It's a huge insult to say...
01:49:16 It is.
01:49:17 ...that you would control me and not allow me to get a haircut,
01:49:21 because you're such a patriarchal asshole bully.
01:49:24 And I'm not going to submit myself to that kind of insane levels of psychotic control
01:49:29 over my life, because that's who you are.
01:49:31 Am I wrong? Isn't that kind of what she's saying?
01:49:33 It is what she's saying, and it piggybacks off of
01:49:40 my being seen and regarded as a cheapskate, both in my family and,
01:49:47 sort of, I wouldn't say friends group, but I do...
01:49:52 ...I do spend mindfully, let's put it that way.
01:49:58 You do what?
01:49:59 I spend mindfully, spend my money mindfully. I'm a bit of a cheapskate in...
01:50:04 What does that mean, a cheapskate? I know what the word means,
01:50:08 but I don't know what it means in the context of you.
01:50:10 Well, I would rather not spend money than spend it.
01:50:15 Okay, so you're a sensibly human being?
01:50:17 ...when there's something I want.
01:50:18 Yeah?
01:50:18 I guess, but...
01:50:22 I mean, do you know how much people suffer? Do you know how much people suffer in life
01:50:26 because they overspend? It's insane.
01:50:28 I know.
01:50:29 It's stressful, it's terrifying, it's worrying. And, you know, like, I was just reading this in
01:50:34 the show last night, like, in America, one out of eight families can't even pay their bills.
01:50:38 Like, they can't pay their debt bills. Now, why is it that people are suffering? Oh my god,
01:50:46 the grocery prices are so high, why are they suffering so much? Because they didn't save.
01:50:50 So, ah, well, inflation is like, yeah, but saving doesn't mean just sticking money in the bank,
01:50:53 right? So they didn't save. Why? Because they spent money on bullshit.
01:50:57 So because people spent all this money on bullshit, they're now stressing out,
01:51:02 because, hey, guess what? The environment, sorry, the economic environment goes up and down.
01:51:06 There are recessions, there's inflation, all this shit is totally common.
01:51:11 And so the reason you save money is because there are these stupid things that the government does
01:51:18 that jacks up the price of things, right? So I don't, I mean, I have no sympathy for the people,
01:51:24 oh, well, yes, but there's inflation. It's like, yeah, you know that, you know that there's such
01:51:27 a thing as inflation, you know, inflation went up to like 15% in the 80s, right? So I don't understand,
01:51:33 just save your money, save your money so you're not stressed later, that's all. And people are
01:51:37 like, well, I can't pay my grocery bills. It's like, well, you should have saved your money.
01:51:40 But you spent it on, and people would like, women with these tattoos and makeup and
01:51:46 perfect nails and eyelashes and so on, all of them, you know, huge amounts of money.
01:51:50 It's like, well, you chose to go to Puerto Rico for a week, you chose to go on a cruise,
01:51:56 so now you're stressed about money. But that's why you save money, because winter always comes.
01:52:02 And sometimes it's a long ass winter, sorry, for this minor rant, but, you know,
01:52:06 oh, you're such a cheapskate. It's like, okay, talk to me when grocery bills doubled in five
01:52:10 years, then talk to me about being a cheapskate, because I'll be fine. I'll be fine. I'll have the
01:52:14 money to buy my groceries. And then you'll be out there complaining about the price of groceries,
01:52:18 when what you're really doing is you're complaining about your own lack of preparation
01:52:22 for the inevitability that government's going to fuck up the economy. Anyway,
01:52:25 sorry, but that's just kind of annoying to me. But I mean, I've been called a cheapskate too,
01:52:29 but I'm not worried about my grocery bills right now. Sorry, go ahead.
01:52:32 No, I think the same way. And, you know, the ironic thing is that
01:52:36 in many respects, she's just as much a cheapskate as I am.
01:52:44 But then she holds, she rubs it into my face. And then whenever I push back and say, well,
01:52:49 it seems to me that you're not really acting differently.
01:52:53 She says, well, she doesn't agree. And I'm way more excessive than her. And that's that.
01:53:02 And does she know that your parents have called you a cheapskate?
01:53:06 Yes, she knows it because they've called me so many times.
01:53:11 So then she also calls you a cheapskate.
01:53:13 Yeah.
01:53:16 Okay.
01:53:17 But she says I've gotten better over the years.
01:53:20 No, no, I don't care about that. But what I am saying is that
01:53:23 she's taking over your parents' wounds and using them for her own advantage.
01:53:29 Yeah.
01:53:34 She is, yeah.
01:53:41 Yeah.
01:53:41 And because she does that, she won't tell you about her childhood because she doesn't want
01:53:49 to give you power. So you've told her about your childhood and she's using that, as far as I can
01:53:54 see, and I'm happy to be corrected, right? You told her about your childhood, which means you've
01:53:58 said I'm controllable by these buttons. Here are my buttons. Here are my buttons. And then she
01:54:05 pushes the buttons to get you to do what she wants. Now, she won't tell you about her childhood.
01:54:11 Why? Because she doesn't want to give you access to her buttons. She wants to stay in control.
01:54:16 Because, and the funny thing is she calls you projecting. Because she's like, well, you know,
01:54:25 when you find out about somebody's sore spots, you hammer them to control them. So the last thing I'm
01:54:30 ever going to do is tell you about my sore spots. Because she's genuinely projecting. Because you'll
01:54:38 misuse my sore spots the way I'm misusing yours. Yeah. I can see that now. Yeah.
01:54:47 You know, bringing up another thought I had, it's an occasion whenever I bring up something or,
01:54:56 I don't have a concrete example now, actually, when I think of it, but I know I've thought about
01:55:00 it in the past is whenever I say something, whenever I open up in an argument, it's going
01:55:07 to come back and get used against me. Right. Yeah. I mean, that's quite common. It's really tragic.
01:55:16 Yeah. It's really, and I assume the same thing happened with your parents,
01:55:19 that they would bring stuff up from long ago.
01:55:24 I guess. And at the same time, I can't bring stuff up from long ago, because obviously it's
01:55:27 in the past. You got to move on. You got to move on. You're X age now. That was so many years ago.
01:55:36 Right. At some point, you got to be taken, take charge of your own life.
01:55:40 Right. Yada, yada.
01:55:43 Right, right, right. Tragically common as well.
01:55:51 Is there anything that you admire about how your girlfriend conducts her life outside of
01:55:55 the relationship? Not really. Like me, she doesn't really have any friends.
01:56:02 What about at work? Do you admire the way she handles things at work?
01:56:07 No, I would say no. She gets overstressed. She is capable. She can get very creative.
01:56:19 That's what I appreciate, that whenever she does creative things,
01:56:24 aesthetically nice things, that is very cool. But she can't handle the pressure of work.
01:56:35 She gets totally eaten alive by it. She can't keep a distance and ends up running around for
01:56:41 everybody else. Okay. So I guess two questions. Number one, if she can't handle the stress of
01:56:47 work, how is she going to handle the stress of motherhood? Number one. Number two, if there's
01:56:52 nothing you admire about her, what will her children admire about her?
01:56:57 Fuck.
01:57:01 And if they don't admire things about her, how is she going to raise them?
01:57:14 Right. Because we were talking earlier, right? If you don't respect, love, and admire your parents,
01:57:19 you don't want to emulate them, but they still need you to do stuff. So then they just get
01:57:23 aggressive or punitive. They hit, they withdraw, they scream, they yell, they just bully, they
01:57:28 half sue you with these quasi seven-year-old legal letters from hell. So if you can't think
01:57:35 of anything that you really admire about your girlfriend, then it seems likely that your
01:57:39 children will not admire anything about their mother. And if they don't admire, I mean, imagine
01:57:45 a son. You have a son. Maybe you have three sons. I don't know. But you have a son. If your son
01:57:51 does not admire his mother, why would he listen to her? If he views her as kind of petty and
01:57:59 not worthy of respect and manipulative and why would he listen to her? He's just going to roll
01:58:05 his eyes. And what happens to petty women when their sons roll their eyes?
01:58:10 They snap.
01:58:15 Yeah, they lose their shit, right?
01:58:17 And then the sons respect the mothers even less, which makes the mothers lose their shit even
01:58:27 more, which means the sons respect the mothers even... You understand? Where's the end to that?
01:58:31 Yeah, yeah. It's run on.
01:58:32 It's runaway behavior. Yeah.
01:58:37 You know, the funny thing is that you brought up respect now with my own mother. She still
01:58:46 yaps it in my face. I deserve respect. I demand respect. I just laugh her out of the room.
01:58:54 But not far enough, maybe.
01:58:58 Yeah.
01:58:59 So what's the benefit of being in touch with your parents?
01:59:02 I'm not saying there isn't one. I don't know. I'm just genuinely curious.
01:59:07 What is the benefit of being in touch with your parents?
01:59:10 They're quite wealthy, so I guess part of it is a prospect of inheritance.
01:59:17 Right. But I mean, you were in your 30s. They're not on death's door, right?
01:59:22 That's true.
01:59:24 Sorry, late 20s, right? So, okay. So that's decades away, right?
01:59:28 Give or take. Yeah.
01:59:29 Okay. What else?
01:59:31 Odd favors here and there.
01:59:37 Like what?
01:59:38 Like, I don't know. Sometimes like birthday gifts for holidays. I don't know.
01:59:49 Okay, so just material shit. Okay. So I don't care about that. You shouldn't either.
01:59:54 Yeah.
01:59:55 So material stuff. What else?
01:59:57 No, other than that, nothing. There's no guidance provided.
02:00:04 Well, no, it's counter. Your mother is still demanding respect. She's still bullying you.
02:00:08 She's still threatening you.
02:00:09 Yeah, that's true.
02:00:11 So the abuse, as far as I can tell, and correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't the abuse still continue?
02:00:17 It does. It's obviously different now, but it does, yeah.
02:00:23 Okay.
02:00:24 All the pretence, all the-
02:00:25 Well, you can't be honest, right?
02:00:28 All the walking around and eggshells, yeah.
02:00:31 Eggshells, talking about nothing. And you can't be honest with your parents' family, right?
02:00:35 You can't sit down. Sorry, you can't be honest with your girlfriend's parents. So you can't sit
02:00:39 down with your girlfriend's parents and say, "All right, I'm kind of stuck here. I really care about
02:00:44 your daughter." And you do, right? "You care about your daughter, but one thing I'm concerned about
02:00:49 is I haven't heard anything about her childhood." And she kind of won't tell me, so I'm sorry to
02:00:53 have to do this, but I just need to know what her childhood was like. In every childhood,
02:00:59 there's good and bad, and I kind of need to map that because it's hard to know someone really well
02:01:03 without knowing their childhood. And my spider sense is tingling in a way because she won't talk
02:01:11 about it, but can we just spend an hour talking about her childhood, right? I mean, seven years
02:01:17 into the relationship, I kind of need to know to figure out what to do next. So I'd really,
02:01:22 really appreciate that if you guys could accommodate me. And what would they say?
02:01:27 I think they would be sort of feel like imposed upon, "What do you mean?"
02:01:37 Okay, let's play it out. So they'd say, "What do you mean?" And I'd say, "What part of 'I want to
02:01:43 know about her childhood' is not comprehensible?" Well, in what way is it relevant? Why are we
02:01:49 involved? Sorry, why are you involved in your daughter's childhood? I mean, you're her parents,
02:01:56 right? So I think that would be how you're involved, right? Yeah, how are we involved
02:02:02 in this relationship now? What's it about with us? Well, I can repeat this if you like,
02:02:09 but I need to know about your daughter's childhood. I can't get the information from her,
02:02:14 so I have to come to you. So you're involved because I'm not able to get the information
02:02:20 from her, and I kind of need to know what her childhood was like, because if we move forward
02:02:25 and we have kids, she's going to be a mother, and I need to know what her childhood was like,
02:02:29 because that's going to have an effect on how she is as a mother.
02:02:31 Well, what do you think about it? You being my girlfriend in this case,
02:02:40 what does she think about it, about the situation here?
02:02:42 I don't think we should be discussing this without her. Yeah, and what would she say?
02:02:48 I don't know. I think she would try and brush it aside. Right, and I would say to you, I would say,
02:02:59 "Yeah, and this is kind of what happens, is I try to find out, and she just kind of brushes it aside,"
02:03:03 which, you know, doesn't give me much comfort. I mean, childhood should be an open book, right?
02:03:09 The good and the bad, right? And I've been open about the good and the bad in my childhood.
02:03:13 And so, given that she won't tell me, I guess, you know, tell me what was she like as a kid,
02:03:21 how did you guys interact, how did you discipline her, what was it like for her growing up?
02:03:26 Because, you know, I mean, I need to know these things so that I can move forward. And, you know,
02:03:33 she's kind of given me a thing, which is like, "We've got to get married," or, "It's over,"
02:03:38 and, you know, I take that very seriously, and as I say, I really do care about your daughter.
02:03:41 And so, I want to be able to move forward. One of the things that I need to move forward is knowing
02:03:48 about her childhood, and if she won't tell me, I care about her enough, and I care about you guys
02:03:52 enough to, you know, come to the real source, which is her parents, you guys. So, if you could
02:03:56 tell me these things, I'd really appreciate it. Well, we were—I don't know what this has got to
02:04:06 do with it, with you guys, but we're a regular family. Guys, guys, I'm just asking about her
02:04:11 childhood. I'm not asking you to give up the recipe for the secret sauce on a Big Mac or
02:04:16 Coke, right? I'm just—what's the problem here? I'm just asking about her childhood.
02:04:22 I mean, we talked about everything else. You guys did a half-hour rant the other day on some
02:04:27 politician. You can't give me a half an hour about her childhood? Like, what is going on?
02:04:32 That this is like—why can't you just tell me? Well, what would be the use? We were just a
02:04:44 regular family, you know? We get by, both work. She goes to school,
02:04:49 saves some money, buy a house, go on vacation twice a year.
02:04:58 And just— So, I mean, seven years into this relationship, she had a childhood for 18 years,
02:05:03 and I get 20 seconds of like bland tapioca, nothing? I'm like, sorry, I need more. Okay,
02:05:09 so what happened when you guys had disagreements, right? Because one of the things that my
02:05:13 girlfriend has said—this is to you, my father-in-law—one of the things that my girlfriend
02:05:18 has mentioned is that you at one point said that she was lucky she was small and slender,
02:05:24 otherwise you would have beaten the crap out of her. And I guess that's given me—that doesn't
02:05:32 seem like regular family stuff to me. Again, I don't know what, you know, where you guys grew
02:05:38 up or the neighborhood exactly, but that doesn't seem like regular family stuff to me, and that's
02:05:41 the kind of stuff I need to find out about or learn more about. I'm sorry? It was just idle
02:05:47 threats. I would have never raised a finger on her.
02:05:54 So do you feel it's—because, you know, I mean, if I'm going to have kids with you guys as the
02:05:58 in-laws, right? Do you feel that it's a fine or decent or good parenting tactic to threaten to
02:06:08 beat the crap out of a kid?
02:06:09 Well, it can't have been that bad, can it?
02:06:16 Well, no, that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking, do you still think, like, looking back upon it—I
02:06:23 understand this is the heat of the moment and we all say things we regret in life—looking back
02:06:27 upon it, do you think that was good parenting to threaten to beat the crap out of your little girl?
02:06:33 No, probably not, but—
02:06:37 Sorry, what do you mean by probably not? You mean there are circumstances in which that is good
02:06:41 parenting?
02:06:41 No, but it's just, you know, things happen. Life is not that easy.
02:06:47 So you're back to justifying it again, like you were stressed or it was difficult or whatever,
02:06:52 right?
02:06:53 Yeah.
02:06:54 Okay. So I suppose if you're around my kids and you get stressed or upset, you could also threaten
02:07:00 to beat the crap out of my children, is that right? Like, that's something that's on the table for
02:07:04 you as acceptable parenting? Or grandparenting, I guess, in this case?
02:07:07 Well, you know, times have changed. We don't do that anymore.
02:07:09 So was it just that times have changed, like it's a fashion thing?
02:07:15 Or was it always kind of wrong to threaten to beat the crap out of your little girl?
02:07:18 No, it was probably not right even then, but things are past now. I can't go back in time and
02:07:32 change it.
02:07:33 What has that got to do with anything? I mean, you guys were really angry about an election,
02:07:40 right? Do you remember that? Fucked up world and midwits and, right? You were— Now, can you go
02:07:46 back in time and change the election? No, but you were still upset about it. So by your own standard,
02:07:52 it's fine to get upset about things that happened in the past, right? I mean, I just had to listen
02:07:58 to half an hour of you guys railing against some stupid politician, half at the top of your lungs.
02:08:03 So that was in the past. You can't change it, but you were still upset. So let's not do any
02:08:07 of this nonsense about there's no point getting upset about these things in the past, okay?
02:08:14 So was it wrong for you to threaten to beat the crap out of the woman I love
02:08:19 when she was a little girl?
02:08:20 Fine, I guess it was.
02:08:28 Sorry, I don't know if you genuinely— It doesn't sound like you genuinely believe that.
02:08:32 No.
02:08:35 So you don't genuinely—
02:08:36 I just want to get out of the situation.
02:08:38 No, I understand that. I mean, I understand it's not comfortable when you're called out on bad
02:08:42 behavior. I know that. I understand that. I mean, if it's any consolation, your daughter calls me
02:08:47 out on bad behavior from time to time, and I don't like it, but it's important, right? I mean,
02:08:51 if your doctor says you should stop smoking, it's uncomfortable, but it's important, right?
02:08:55 So, okay, so as far as I understand it, you don't really believe that it's wrong
02:09:01 to threaten to beat the crap out of little kids, right? So that's behavior that is still on the
02:09:07 table for you. I assume it's behavior that you won't apologize for, like you wouldn't turn to
02:09:11 your daughter and say, "I'm really sorry for saying that." There was no excuse?
02:09:13 No, we can't apologize, but what does it make a difference now?
02:09:19 Sorry, what do you mean? You don't think apologies— Apologies are always about things
02:09:27 of the past, right? So are you saying that there's no context in which an apology is ever valid?
02:09:39 No, but I mean, it's so far in the past, so what difference can it make now?
02:09:43 Well, what do you mean, "what difference"? You're not even admitting that it's wrong.
02:09:47 If you admit that it's wrong, the difference it will make is you get to see your grandkids.
02:09:52 I tell you, that's a difference it will make. Because if you don't
02:09:57 accept that threatening to beat the crap out of a little kid
02:10:02 is wrong, I'm not letting you around the grandkids.
02:10:08 Well, she will, though.
02:10:09 Not if I don't have grandkids with her. Not if I don't marry her. Not if I don't
02:10:15 have kids with her. And if she's going to put my kids in the care, custody, and control of
02:10:21 people who think it's fine to threaten to beat the crap out of them, then I'm not having kids with her.
02:10:28 Of course. I mean, why would I— I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't put that on my kids.
02:10:33 And of course, if you're the kind of family that prefers, "I won't admit fault even for
02:10:47 something that's clearly wrong." Like, it's clearly wrong to threaten to beat the kids—
02:10:51 beat the crap out of little kids, because you never did it in public, right? So it's clearly wrong.
02:10:55 So if you're so full of pride that you would rather have your
02:11:00 bloodline end than admit you were wrong, then I'm entirely in the wrong household.
02:11:06 Like, I'm entirely in the wrong place. Like, you'd rather your daughter not get married and have kids
02:11:13 than admit you did something wrong, which is clearly and obviously wrong.
02:11:16 You would rather sacrifice your daughter's happiness than admit you were wrong?
02:11:23 How messed up is this place?
02:11:24 And then I'd peace out out of that situation. Honestly, I would.
02:11:36 Because that pause tells me everything I need to know.
02:11:38 That you'd seriously consider that?
02:11:43 Well, it might be the end of my bloodline.
02:11:46 I don't get grandkids. My daughter is miserable. She just wasted seven years of her life.
02:11:53 She might never have kids. On the other hand, I might have to apologize
02:11:57 for being verbally abusive as a parent. Like, if that's something you'd even weigh?
02:12:02 Oh my god, those perspectives and priorities are so far out of whack,
02:12:08 I'd feel like I was in an asylum.
02:12:11 You know, if someone kidnaps your beloved dog and says, "It's going to cost you a dollar
02:12:22 to get your dog back," and you're like, "Ooh, dollar.
02:12:24 That's a lot, man. Really? A dollar? Can we start maybe? Let's start at a penny."
02:12:32 Like, would that be kind of like, let's say they kidnap your kid,
02:12:35 and it's like, "It's 25 bucks to get your kid back," and you're like, "Ooh, 25.
02:12:40 That's a lot. I might have to go to the ATM." Now, let's start haggling.
02:12:50 Yes.
02:12:50 That's insane.
02:12:52 I know we're role-playing, so we don't know exactly how it would play out,
02:12:56 but I'm sure you've known these people for more than half a decade. But if somebody would be like,
02:13:02 "Ooh, admit that I'm wrong about something that's clearly wrong," or
02:13:06 not have my daughter get married and have kids. Oh, come on.
02:13:17 I'm sure you're right, but isn't that just kind of jaw-dropping?
02:13:20 That's why your girlfriend can't admit she's wrong.
02:13:23 I mean, does she? I asked you earlier about responsibility.
02:13:28 No. No, she doesn't.
02:13:29 Okay. Right.
02:13:31 Most times she doesn't. She might occasionally.
02:13:34 You know that theme, like, "Yes, I'm sorry," and it's just one line, and the woman is like,
02:13:39 all over the paper with the pencil, right? And then it ends up with the man being, "Sorry."
02:13:44 Usually at the end, it's kind of funny.
02:13:46 Yeah, yeah. That's normally when you try and push back, it's more of a headache to push back than it
02:13:51 is to just take it occasionally.
02:13:53 Right. I mean, that's not the case with every—I mean, that's not the case in my marriage. We both
02:13:57 admit fault when it's right. It's just easier, and it's honest. And everybody knows—like,
02:14:05 if your girlfriend's responsible for something, she did something wrong, as we all do,
02:14:08 everybody knows it. We just do this weird dance where we pretend to not know it,
02:14:12 you know, blindingly and clearly, right?
02:14:14 Yeah.
02:14:15 And the other thing, too, I mean, which you could mention in the role play, but
02:14:21 if they say, "Well, that's in the past. What does it matter?" It's like, "Well,
02:14:25 but you got angry at your daughter about things that were in the past, so that mattered."
02:14:28 Yeah, that's true.
02:14:32 And then if they say, "Well, it's so far in the past, what does it matter?"
02:14:35 It's like, "Well, then it should be easy to apologize, because it doesn't matter."
02:14:39 Yeah. That's another, "Whenever I get the 'what does it matter, what's the difference'
02:14:45 argument, I try to reverse it back, but it never works."
02:14:47 Like, "Oh, oh no, no, no, no, it works every time. Oh, no, no, no, see, you have—okay,
02:14:56 I'm going to be kind of annoying here, so I apologize for that. Oh, no, it works every time."
02:15:00 Because you think by "it works," you mean the other person changes their mind at a bit's fault?
02:15:06 Yeah.
02:15:08 No, when you just prove someone—
02:15:09 Where you're going, yeah.
02:15:10 It works every time. How do I know? Because you now know that they won't admit fault.
02:15:15 Yeah.
02:15:17 Now, if you choose to still hang around with people who will never admit fault,
02:15:21 who continue to blame you, who continue to abuse and diminish you, who continue to bully you and
02:15:26 demand respect, and you say, "Well, my arguments aren't working," it's like, they absolutely are,
02:15:30 you're just not listening.
02:15:31 Yeah. I get your point.
02:15:35 Dude, you are such an energy killer. What the hell is going on in this company?
02:15:38 Yeah, yeah.
02:15:39 Sorry, Stefan, I'm a bit—
02:15:41 Well, yeah. I mean, am I boring you? I don't want to bore you.
02:15:45 No.
02:15:45 Try to help you.
02:15:46 No.
02:15:47 So what the hell?
02:15:47 No, I'm spacing out because my head is—
02:15:49 What's going on?
02:15:50 Is looking forward at the hard decision I'm going to have to make.
02:15:55 No, it's a hard decision to execute. I think it's an easy decision to make.
02:16:02 The easy— I mean, in my view, I obviously can't tell you what to do, but in my view,
02:16:05 it's like, just have conversations, right? Have conversations with your parents,
02:16:09 have conversations with your girlfriend, have conversations with her parents.
02:16:12 And if you have doubts, then find out the facts, right?
02:16:18 Yeah.
02:16:20 Maybe they'll respond in a very positive way. Sorry, go ahead.
02:16:22 No, I spoke about the ultimatum situation. It was absolutely— lack of interest was
02:16:31 off the charts. Like, "Yeah, we'll marry her. Just make sure she gets a prenup."
02:16:34 You talked to your parents about this ultimatum situation and the torture you had with regards to
02:16:39 your girlfriend?
02:16:41 Yeah, because I couldn't get around them. Well, I could get around them, but it was
02:16:45 a family member's birthday.
02:16:49 They said— how did that conversation go?
02:16:52 Well, my father didn't comment, really.
02:16:54 Your father didn't comment at all?
02:16:55 My mother said, "Not that I recall."
02:16:58 And my mother said, "Well, marry her. What's the problem? Just get a prenup."
02:17:03 Oh, because of their money, right?
02:17:06 Well, yeah, I guess I've got—
02:17:11 Oh, you've got some money too, okay.
02:17:12 Yeah, I've got some money too as well, yeah.
02:17:14 Okay. So, how long, how many minutes did you spend on the conversation with them? How long
02:17:22 did it occur?
02:17:25 Five, to be generous.
02:17:26 Okay. So, you're pushing 30, you've got the biggest decision of your life to make,
02:17:31 and you get five minutes of which your father says nothing, and your mother just doesn't
02:17:36 give you any—
02:17:37 Just—
02:17:37 Just says, "Do it. Do this," right?
02:17:39 Seconded her— my mother's "get a prenup" suggestion.
02:17:44 Have your parents given you any particular instruction that's been helpful in life as a
02:17:49 whole? Maybe some career stuff from your dad, or?
02:17:54 Not really.
02:17:55 So, have they parented you? I mean, parenting isn't just feeding, right? You can get that
02:17:59 from a prison.
02:18:00 No.
02:18:00 So, are they your parents? Did they parent you?
02:18:03 I wouldn't say so, no. No, no, they haven't. They've just treated me like a— I don't
02:18:12 know, like a thing to be moved around the wrong path that they somehow carved or preconceived.
02:18:21 Yeah, so, it's funny because a lot of— I mean, dysfunctional parents, what they want
02:18:27 is they want to be treated as parents without actually having to gather and transmit wisdom
02:18:36 to their children.
02:18:37 Yeah. I've listened to your recent shows, and I found them very helpful, more insightful.
02:18:50 It's funny, I give you this big M-O-A-B, right? And you're like, "Yep."
02:18:54 I know.
02:18:57 Where are you emotionally, brother? I don't know where you are. You're in the fog somewhere.
02:19:02 I'm half-sobbing, yeah. I'm in the fog, half-sobbing. Sitting on the floor.
02:19:06 Okay, so tell me, what are you thinking? What are you feeling? Tell me.
02:19:09 I'm sad. Very, very sad that I've been— I don't know. I'm still in this fucking
02:19:19 fog. Still fucking lost. With sort of everything—
02:19:25 It's sad. What are you sad about? I'm not disagreeing with the feeling,
02:19:30 I just want to know how it's connected.
02:19:32 Circumstances. Everything. Just like all my life, you know, that line from Blade Runner?
02:19:36 Like the tears lost in the rain.
02:19:43 It's interesting that you would go to a robot.
02:19:46 Yeah.
02:19:46 That's your analogy.
02:19:47 Well, like everything. Like a construction that's like a sandcastle that's—
02:19:54 what would you call it? The sand that's sliding through the fingers.
02:20:02 Right.
02:20:02 Yeah.
02:20:05 Now, are you sad? Is that your feeling?
02:20:11 Or is that your parents' feeling?
02:20:12 Part of me's sad. Part of me's—
02:20:17 Okay, what else do you feel when we talk about how you've been abused and exploited
02:20:21 and continue to be so by your parents? I get the sadness. What else is there?
02:20:25 Anger.
02:20:26 Okay. So let's man it up a little and tell me about that.
02:20:29 Yeah, I'd like to smash it all to pieces.
02:20:35 All this shit. Leave it all behind me. Just be done with it. Be done with it all. I'd like to get a table in front of me. I'd just like to grab the legs of the table and just smack it against the wall.
02:20:57 Right.
02:21:03 I get the sadness. I do. I understand the sadness. But the sadness weakens you.
02:21:08 And the sadness may be there to weaken you so that you don't do the necessary steps to secure the truth.
02:21:21 Because the necessary steps that you're going to need to take to secure the truth are around assertiveness.
02:21:30 And sadness does not fuel assertiveness. Anger, when properly channeled, can help fuel assertiveness.
02:21:39 Right. And I feel—
02:21:47 Sadness is anorexia. Anger is boundaries. Sorry, go ahead.
02:21:54 I feel difficulties with setting boundaries and putting my feet down. Like, whenever I start, I need to be like, tap into my anger. Afterwards, I start to cry because it just upsets me too much.
02:22:10 Well, that's because you feel that your anger needs to have permission or needs to be accepted by others. That's not true at all.
02:22:24 Interesting.
02:22:26 You feel that your anger has to achieve a goal that coincides with your parents' wants and needs.
02:22:34 I'm angry, so I'm going to tell my parents, and they're going to change. "Oh no, they haven't
02:22:42 changed. I guess anger is useless. What's the point?" And then you go back to sadness and
02:22:49 despair and a lack of energy and emotional emptiness, because, you know,
02:22:54 the anger just doesn't work. It doesn't get you what you want, right?
02:22:58 But anger is not there for other people to agree with it.
02:23:07 Anger is not measured. The value of anger is not measured by who agrees with you.
02:23:18 Because we tend to get most angry at those who agree with us the least.
02:23:21 So, we tend to get the most angry with those who agree with us the least.
02:23:29 In other words, if you're moral, you tend to get most angry at the immoral, but the
02:23:34 immoral are never going to listen to you. So, if anger is only valuable because people listen to you,
02:23:39 then the more just your anger, the more helpless you feel. Do you see what a trap that is?
02:23:45 I see. Yeah, yeah.
02:23:51 People say boundaries like, "Well, I try to set up these boundaries with my mother and
02:23:55 she just walks right through them." Boundaries is the wrong word, in my view. The correct word
02:24:02 is standards. Do you meet my standards? I want to have a relationship where I'm honest. I want
02:24:12 to have a relationship where I can speak my mind. I want to have a relationship where I'm not biting
02:24:15 my tongue. I want to have a relationship where people aren't manipulative and aggressive.
02:24:18 These are my standards. Do you meet them?
02:24:20 Boundaries requires agreement from the other person. Standards does not.
02:24:27 Yeah. Standards is just my thing and I can always choose to subtract myself from there.
02:24:33 Well, I have these standards for how I'm going to spend my precious time in this world.
02:24:42 If you don't meet those standards, are you helpless?
02:24:45 It's like saying, "Well, I really want to have a family. I want to be a father."
02:24:54 And then some 50-year-old woman contacts you and wants to date you and you're like, "Well,
02:24:58 I guess I have to date her. That's too bad. I really wanted to be a father."
02:25:04 Yeah, I see what you mean.
02:25:07 But that would be like, "What are you talking about?" You have a standard called, "I want
02:25:10 to be a father." So you're going to need a woman who can give you children. And if a woman can't
02:25:14 give you children, then you don't marry her. That's a standard, right?
02:25:19 Or you say, "I really want to become a father." And some 30-year-old woman contacts you and wants
02:25:26 to date you. And she says, "I'm resolutely against having children."
02:25:29 So, "Well, I guess I'll try and convince her. And I guess whether I become a father or not and
02:25:35 have children is dependent upon whether I can convince this woman to have children." It's like,
02:25:39 "No! That's making yourself helpless and meaning now you're the one who has to beg
02:25:45 to have your needs met. You know, never beg to have your needs met."
02:25:50 "These are my needs. They're legitimate. I'm willing to reciprocate. I've thought them through.
02:25:57 They're valid. They're just. They're fair. They're right. They're honest. They're direct."
02:26:00 Meet the standards or don't.
02:26:08 If you have some good that you say, "I'm not going to sell it for less than 500 bucks,"
02:26:12 and somebody offers you 200 bucks, you say, "No."
02:26:15 Yep.
02:26:17 "Well, I've got to convince this person to spend 500 bucks." No, you don't.
02:26:22 You just have to tell them, "No, the price is 500." I'm not selling it for anything less.
02:26:25 You're not helpless to get $500. You can lower your standards if you want.
02:26:36 And, you know, with some of the people we've been talking about,
02:26:39 it's not just lowering your standards. It's reversing your standards.
02:26:43 In other words, you're not saying, "Well, you don't have to be totally virtuous or have much
02:26:49 of a commitment to virtue to be in my life, right? You say you can yell in my face that I owe you
02:26:56 respect and you demand respect from me. You can continue to yell at me even in my late 20s,
02:27:04 and I'm like, "Yeah, when do we call next? Let's call in two weeks."
02:27:07 And at the time, when I absolutely desperately need your advice, you give me nothing.
02:27:18 Yeah, absolutely nothing.
02:27:21 But in fairness, I didn't really expect much either.
02:27:30 Okay. So that's your problem.
02:27:33 The fuck are you doing in relationships where you expect to be treated like shit?
02:27:38 You think if you have kids in this environment and your kids see you being pushed around by
02:27:48 your parents and pushed around by your wife and pushed around by her parents,
02:27:51 you think they're going to respect you?
02:27:56 No, not at all.
02:27:59 So then you're going to be left with either nothing or aggression.
02:28:03 And that's how the cycle reproduces. You lower your standards to the point where your children
02:28:17 don't respect you, and then you have to be aggressive with them to get them to comply.
02:28:20 And then they lower their standards.
02:28:24 And their children don't respect them, and then they have to use aggression to get the kids to
02:28:27 comply. If you don't lower your standards, your kids will respect you, and you don't need
02:28:34 aggression. I've never had to call my daughter names. I've never... I can't imagine raising my
02:28:39 voice at her. I can't imagine hitting her. I can't imagine threatening her. It's inconceivable.
02:28:51 And she's a great person. I mean, I've modeled that, right?
02:28:57 Yeah. You know, the first streams I heard with you and your daughter, I couldn't listen to them
02:29:03 because it was too painful. The joy that was emanating from the voice of both of them to play
02:29:11 was too painful for me to listen. Now it's changed. Now I can listen to them. But initially,
02:29:18 it was very hard. I couldn't, as I said, I couldn't listen to them. It was too painful.
02:29:22 Right.
02:29:24 I'm glad for that.
02:29:25 It's quite inspiring, actually.
02:29:27 I'm glad for that. I'm sorry that it was so painful, but I'm glad that you kept with it.
02:29:31 So, what's the plan?
02:29:47 I'm going to listen to this a couple of times. I need to talk to people. I need to talk.
02:29:52 I'm going to talk to my girlfriend again. Obviously, try and talk to her parents as well.
02:30:00 Get this talk out.
02:30:02 Have you... I appreciate that. I think that's wise. Have you ever done
02:30:07 personal talk therapy or anything like that?
02:30:10 Yes. I started when I was first hospitalized, but that was a terrible experience because they
02:30:17 essentially were blaming me. It was pretty bad. I was used to sort of an escape goat.
02:30:24 Oh, sorry about that.
02:30:26 Essentially, what my parents wanted to hear, that's what the doctors said. It was my fault.
02:30:32 I was being too perfectionistic, yada, yada. Aim lower. You don't need to be the best. You can
02:30:37 80/20, YOLO it. That was essentially the gist that I got from the first cycle of therapy.
02:30:43 Then I've been in therapy for quite a while with another therapist, I guess, in hindsight.
02:30:49 Even at the time, it wasn't really helpful. I've now started a new cycle after I've moved last year,
02:30:57 and that has been quite powerful, however, nowhere near as powerful as this session
02:31:04 has been today, Stefan.
02:31:06 Oh, well, I'm glad for that. I'm glad for that. Yeah, certainly when you're going through these
02:31:12 kinds of actually being honest in your life, therapy can be very helpful because there can
02:31:18 be quite a lot of resistance both within and without to any kind of facts.
02:31:22 As you might have judged from the call today, I'm having recently quite a big issue with
02:31:28 dissociation. I'm just completely spaced out. I'm not sure if it's just stronger now or if I've
02:31:35 always been that way.
02:31:35 No, just so you know what's happening, you have to depersonalize in order to survive around really
02:31:41 selfish people because they don't stand contradiction, they don't stand independence,
02:31:46 they don't stand questioning. So you have to, in a sense, cease to exist, to be around them.
02:31:51 You have to not have preferences, you have to not have an identity, you have to not have a being.
02:31:56 So when we start bringing criticisms up of, say, your parents, the response is to depersonalize
02:32:02 because that's how you ended up not criticizing your parents as a kid because criticizing your
02:32:07 parents as a kid could have been very dangerous. I mean, it would have been very dangerous.
02:32:10 So depersonalization, which I assume is associated with, in my opinion, obviously I don't know, but
02:32:16 I think that that's probably associated with the anorexia. It's just in order to be in the world,
02:32:22 I have to not be in the world. In order to live, I have to start. In order to exist,
02:32:26 I have to do the opposite of existence.
02:32:30 Yeah.
02:32:31 Will you keep me posted about how it's going?
02:32:34 I will, Stefan. I will.
02:32:39 I'm very, very glad, and I really do appreciate the call today. Sorry, go ahead.
02:32:42 Yeah, yeah. Thanks for arranging it. I know it's been quite a while in scheduling.
02:32:47 You're very welcome, and I'm very glad to have helped, and I'm absolutely sure you will get
02:32:52 what you want in life. Like everyone, it's a bit of a ride to get there, but it's well worth the
02:32:58 trip, and I'm sure you'll do fantastic. Very clean words.
02:33:02 All right. Take care, brother. I hope to hear from you soon, and thanks again for the call today.
02:33:06 All right. Thank you, Stefan.
02:33:08 Bye-bye.
02:33:08 Have a nice rest of your day.

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