GenZ: Is religion irrelevant today? || Acharya Prashant, in conversation (2022)

Acharya Prashant

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Transcript

00:00Acharya ji, thanks for agreeing to talk with me again in Goa.

00:09I know you have very limited time, so I'll make this quick.

00:14Welcome DDS.

00:18So I guess something that keeps coming up in my mind is, what is this deal with religion?

00:25It seems so irrelevant, it seems so childish to me, and yet so many people seem to believe

00:32it with such militant fervor and zeal.

00:36And I'll give you my example, that I remember as a child, my mother would take me to the

00:43fire temple, and I used to hate it because it was the most stupid thing I would do, that

00:50you had to put the so-called holy water on yourself, you had to go in front of the fire,

00:57you had, and then when you came home the priest would supposedly pray on the fruit, and the

01:02fruit was supposed to be holy fruit that tasted better, and it didn't really taste better.

01:06I think it's similar to langar, people say it tastes better in the temple than in the

01:12house, but then you're not supposed to let it fall on the ground, you're not supposed

01:16to give it to people who are not part of your religion.

01:19This just seems so stupid, and it just seemed like a cult, and I didn't experience anything

01:25different in that temple, or eating the fruit, but it seemed like my mother and other people

01:32experienced something different, or to me it seemed like people were just pretending,

01:37and I didn't want to go on with that farce.

01:40But I've noticed this happens in most religions, like just now as I was on the way here, there

01:45was mass in temple, and people were standing like this, looking at the sky, and I'm not

01:50sure there was anything happening to them when they did that, it just seemed like a

01:55put on social convention.

02:06You called the whole thing childish, and that gives me a point to start from, say, who are we?

02:28We are born kids, immature, dependent, enslaved to their physical tendencies, bodily configuration

02:57and habits, that's how human beings are born.

03:08Now physically it is evident that we are born small and dependent and immature and unwise,

03:23and it appears when you just look at the body of the kid, that in the course of time,

03:32over the next 20-25 years, we grow up, and when we grow up physically, we are said to

03:49be adults, mature, thoughtful, wise, free, capable, independent, but that does not really

04:10happen or always happen in the psychological sense, the growth, that is.

04:20Inwardly we are born a kid, and we remain the kid.

04:33What is a religion then?

04:44There is a religion that liberates us from our inner tendencies and inner weaknesses

04:57and the inner darkness, and there is a religion that acts as a toy in the hands of the child.

05:14So religion is not one thing, but two things really.

05:24To keep these two distinct, I sometimes call real religiosity as spirituality and the common

05:37kind of religion that you refer to as just organized religion.

05:51Unfortunately, as would be evident, mostly what we see is a display of the latter kind

06:02of religion, where instead of religion being able to grant us the benefit that we so deeply

06:21need, it actually becomes a continuation of our immaturity.

06:34It actually becomes another bondage on the one who is already in so many chains.

06:54The presence of the wrong kind of religion should not convince us into thinking that

07:08the childish displays of ceremony and hollow superstitions and rituals and practices are

07:21all that is there to religion.

07:29These are mostly acts of ignorance.

07:36You could call these rather as distortions in the spirit of religion.

07:47That's not real religiosity.

08:01We need real religion.

08:07Religion is not just an unnecessary thing foisted on us by history, by tradition, by the priests.

08:24Religion is a liberating force, true religion, pure religion.

08:35Not the branded kind of religion, not what goes by in the name of religion.

08:45Religion is not an unnecessary addition to the long list of problems we already have.

09:01If religion is true, it is a solution rather to the core problem that we have.

09:14But I understand where you are coming from, mostly overwhelmingly what we see is just

09:27the wrong kind, so I understand.

09:35So you said true religion, not the organized kind, and you said true religions are liberating force.

09:43So what exactly is this true religion?

09:46Is it the life of the saints?

09:49Is it, what's its essence if it's so corrupted today?

09:54Where can I find it or what is it?

10:01See the essence of true religion is self-knowledge.

10:10Why is the essence self-knowledge?

10:14Because as we said true religion has to be a liberating force.

10:20Religion exists for us, therefore it has to do intimately with our condition.

10:33We must know what our condition is, and that is self-knowledge, and when we know what our

10:41condition is, then we know what to keep in ourselves, what to drop, what ails us, and

10:55therefore what could be a possible solution.

11:00This process of self-knowledge with deep assurance that freedom from the internal

11:24bondages is possible, is the essence of true religion, pure, simple, direct.

11:37This is what true religion is.

11:39Freedom from bondage?

11:41Freedom from inner bondages that we are born with, and the bondages that get manifested

11:50in the world around us, in our social systems, in our education, in our family, in our politics.

12:00Because they are within us, we see them all around us.

12:04So if you look at the human being, inside of himself he is deeply conditioned, the body

12:12itself is the primary conditioning, and then all around him are forces that only deepen

12:29and aggravate his conditioning.

12:32So that's the human condition, and that's why man needs religion.

12:37Religion is not unnecessary.

12:41As long as we are who we are, we will continue to need religion.

12:47As long as the kid is born the way he is, we will continue to need religion.

12:57It seems like such a tough sell because if you're rational and intelligent, you see through

13:05the farce of organized religion.

13:07How do you see the benefits of religion if all you know is the organized religion nonsense?

13:14So if you see the kiosk that happens during Diwali or Holi or Christmas or Eid, you lump

13:22all religion as, okay, it doesn't matter if it's X, Y, or Z religion, they all do the

13:28same nonsense, and it's better for me to just step outside of this religion umbrella because

13:34wherever I go to find religion, it seems nonsensical.

13:41See I understand that it's very evident that a lot of organized religion is quite nonsensical,

13:54but I also wonder why the same mind, the same faculty that sees through the farce of

14:04organized religion fails to see through one's inner farce.

14:14We are very quick to deplore all the foolishness that happens outside of us as organized religion.

14:25We see that and we must see that, that's good, but why don't we see all the foolishness

14:32that constantly happens within us and also gets patronized by us.

14:41If we can see that, then we are truly religious.

14:45In fact, it is a mark of true religiosity to see that a lot of organized religion is

14:55fake and corrupted, but if you truly have the discerning eye that penetrates through

15:03fakeness, that knows the reality of fakeness, then why is that eye unable to look at one's

15:14own self, this inclination to know one's own self, one's center of operations, one's cluster

15:31of identities, one's inner contradictions, this is self-knowledge, this is the foundation

15:40of true religiosity.

15:44It seems like seeing the farce outside is very easy because I'm drawn towards the outside.

15:54This is almost, no one's told me, I've never learned how to draw myself inwards or when

16:04I go to people who claim to know that it's like the fake meditation, the fake close your

16:09eyes and imagine you're in bliss, which again seems like another fakeness.

16:14So I guess why am I so drawn outside and when it comes time to think inwards, the only concepts

16:26I have are what I've studied, so biology, the heart flows in my body, my heart pumps,

16:32the chemistry, the physics of the body, but all that is again outside knowledge of the

16:39inside, if that makes sense.

16:40So what is inside knowledge of the inside?

16:45When you're talking of the heart that pumps blood and all the physical mechanism, there

16:52is somebody who is looking at all this, who is the one looking at all this and is the

16:59looking proper and pure.

17:03True religion has to do with this looker, the observer, the experiencer of everything.

17:12You put your hands on your chest and you say, oh my heartbeat is probably abnormal right

17:18now.

17:19Who is the one experiencing the heartbeat?

17:24Who is the one experiencing a particular emotion?

17:28Who is the one having a thought?

17:29Who is the thinker?

17:33So if you are content with just looking at things physical, whether outside of yourself

17:42or inside, then you are at best a rational man who looks at things and who looks only

17:49at things.

17:53But if you can also look at the looker, if you can look at the thinker, if you can look

18:02at the one who calls himself as I, then you are a religious mind.

18:13When you say look, I'm assuming that's a metaphor because again to me it seems like I can't

18:19really see the one who is seeing me in the physical sense.

18:24But you do that all the time, don't you?

18:26When you say I am angry, have you not looked at yourself?

18:37To be honest, I think when I say I am angry, I just say it out of habit and conditioning

18:42when I feel a certain way in my body, that X feeling has arisen, therefore I must be

18:48angry.

18:49Let me put it this way, you are acting in a certain way and then due to the presence

19:01of a person or because of the presence of a helpful condition, you just realize that

19:14you are doing it all wrong or you are mistaken in the way you are approaching things and

19:20then you suddenly say, oh, I am mistaken.

19:26I am mistaken.

19:29What does that tell about the inner thing?

19:34That I take it, its existence as a given.

19:38That it operates, it can make mistakes in its operation and that you can remain happily

19:49unaware of the internal mistakes and that it is possible to see that you are mistaken.

20:00That's the inner worker and that inner worker remains shielded, veiled, concealed, we do

20:14not come to know of the inner worker.

20:18But it is possible to know of it and often do, we do come to know of it and that's when

20:23we say things like, oh, I am so mistaken or I was so mistaken.

20:29So it's the ability to analyze, introspect and see how we were mistaken or how what we

20:39thought was true wasn't really true.

20:42Yes, it's that and a bit more than that because you see when you analyze and introspect, that's

20:48all with respect to the past.

20:51Something has already happened.

20:53Something in the form of data is present to be analyzed, something is available and lending

21:01itself to scrutiny and then you sit down and defect it and analyze and whatever.

21:11True religiosity consists of doing exactly this but in real time.

21:19So self-observation does consist of introspection and contemplation but it's also much more

21:31than that, it's about knowing yourself right now as you desire something, as you think

21:44of something, as you rush towards a particular goal, as you are happy or sad or dejected,

21:55as you suddenly feel hurt, that is self-knowledge in its most useful form, to know it right

22:04now because if you know it in the past, that is if you know it after the deal is done,

22:12the event is gone, then the utility is limited, whatsoever had to happen to you has already

22:22happened and remember the role of religiosity is to help you.

22:30It is not just an external obligation, it's an inner demand, it's an inner requirement.

22:39We need religiosity because we are born fettered and in several ways incapable, however, that

22:53is not our destiny and that's the reason why we need religion truly.

23:00So Chagaiji, by real-time self-knowledge, for example, if I want to go to a restaurant

23:07instead of just going eating and coming back after two hours, it would be noticing that

23:15I feel the urge to go to the restaurant, asking myself why restaurant, why this restaurant,

23:21is it really the best use of say two hours of my time, what else would be in that self-knowledge

23:29real-time evaluation?

23:31This that you are talking of and something more than that, being very alert to the stimulus

23:43that provokes the desire within you, seeing how the thought arose and drove you into action,

23:57seeing it then and there in real time, that obviously does not preclude what you said.

24:09Thinking, analyzing is a part of true religiosity, but true religiosity goes way beyond thought

24:21because thought is incapable of addressing the real nature of our bondage.

24:34Thought is way too slow to catch up with the inner mechanism that's lightening fast.

24:47Thought is not the right vehicle, not that thought is not useful there, but it won't suffice.

24:54So one has to be incredibly sharp and attentive.

25:00Sharp and attentive to what?

25:01The impulse?

25:02To what is happening within, just as you catch with your eyes, anything that's happening

25:10in front of you, you catch with your senses, a fly just comes and right now lands on your

25:19arm and don't you notice it instantaneously, that instantaneous appreciation of what is

25:31going on internally is true religiosity, coupled with the deep faith that what is happening

25:43within need not continue to happen that way, that freedom from all this happening, this

25:52entire ecosystem of conditioning and bondages and compulsiveness is possible.

26:05These two together, knowledge that I am in bondage and faith that my destiny is liberation

26:13from all bondages, this is true religiosity.

26:19So it sounded like thought, if I understood correctly, thought is too slow to have real-time

26:28situational awareness.

26:31So I guess I'm trying to put words to what that awareness is, is it like just a sense

26:37and impulse, a feeling in the body that this desire arose and you catch it?

26:45You feel a certain way, you...

26:48It's something that knows the feeling, it's not a feeling, it is something that knows

26:56the feeling, you know that you are feeling, you are not just feeling, right now you are

27:02behind and beyond the feeling, so you know the feeling and you know the feeling even

27:08as it is rising within you, captivating you.

27:15So is this what they mean when some of the sense look, observe, watch, be mindful, is

27:24this what they're pointing to?

27:27It is that and beyond that, it's not about being mindful, it's about being in knowledge

27:37of, in instantaneous knowledge of what fills up the mind.

27:42So mindfulness too is a small thing when it comes to religiosity.

27:51The mind is not the equipment, the instrument that can watch really, or even if it does

28:03manage to watch, it's a lazy and inefficient watcher.

28:12The mind itself has to be watched, when you watch through the mind, then you are watching

28:21through a distorted and colored lens, and a lens that cannot have a 360 degree view,

28:31the mind watches fragments and even those fragments, it watches in a prejudiced way.

28:40Therefore this very tendency of the mind to watch in a prejudiced and fragmented way has

28:48to be watched.

28:51It is therefore something, as we said, behind and beyond the mind.

28:59So this again sounds like some of the stuff I've read about in organized religion that

29:07God is all-knowing, all-powerful, you can't, beyond.

29:11How am I supposed to know?

29:13All I know right now is my emotions and my mind, I don't know this beyond and it.

29:20Right now we do not know our emotions and our mind, it is when we are beyond our emotions

29:27and our mind that we know our emotions, we think that we know our emotions, we do not

29:37know them, we are emotional without knowing a thing about emotions, we think without knowing

29:45a thing about thoughts, we exist without knowing who is the existent one.

29:54So as you said, you know, God is all-knowing and all that.

30:03So there has to be a point beyond our existence, our thoughts, feelings, emotions and everything

30:11that there is to the human life that can look at all this, I don't have a better word so

30:21I say look at all this, that point that can look at all this, that point you can equate

30:30to God, if need be, if you are interested, otherwise there is no need or you can call

30:39that point as the true self, as who you really are, that one as it is called in Vedanta.

30:53How do you develop this faculty, I feel like I don't have it, in that all I do is either

31:05think or feel emotions.

31:07You don't really have to develop this faculty, you have to ask yourself what is it that prevents

31:14you from knowing something so intimate to you, you say your feelings, you say your life,

31:24you say your relationships, your love, your fears, your thoughts, who else is supposed

31:33to know them if they are yours, you live with them, they are your entire life, they are

31:41not even yours, they are you, take all that away and you will find you are left with nothing,

31:50my body, my mind, if these things are taken away, the me itself does not exist.

32:00So if that's who I am, how do I manage to not know them, what prevents us from knowing

32:10what just kindled desire in me, how do I manage to not know what ails me and why I am not

32:22in a good mood this morning, how do I manage to not know that even as I am sitting over

32:30a task, there is something else crying for attention within, how do I manage to not know

32:37that I may claim I am moving in a particular direction for a particular reason but my real

32:46intentions are different, how do we remain so unaware internally, we meet someone and

32:59we smile, how do we manage to not know that the smile is fake, we argue with people and

33:10we feel that we are arguing in a rational way, we think that our differences are objective

33:18and hence the argument or the debate, how do we manage to not know that most of that

33:26is just personal, that all the argument might vanish when it comes to another person saying

33:37just the same things, because the argument often is not about an issue, the argument

33:45is largely about the two parties taking up the issue, how do we manage to not know that,

33:54how do we manage to convince ourselves that we are rational people, and all that is happening

34:04within us, very very close to us, how do we manage to keep ourselves in dark?

34:11It's a great question, I've never really gone that deep into it, what, is it because I think

34:24I know what I don't really know?

34:27Yeah, that's what, we think we know what we don't really know, and we convince ourselves

34:35that we know, because admission of one's ignorance is painful, and that's the reason why true

34:45religion talks so much of austerity, sacrifice, willingness to inflict pain on oneself, humility,

35:08an admission of one's real estate, I don't want to kid myself, I know where I really stand.

35:18So it sounds like the austerity and sacrifices, that was another thing that I didn't really

35:24understand why people had to be so ostentatious in terms of sacrificing milk, fruits and even

35:33killing animals.

35:37The problem is that they're not sacrificing the ostentation itself.

35:43And that it sounds like that's the root of what the sacrifice is, that give up what's

35:48dear to you.

35:49That's what sacrifice is really meant to be, sacrifice that which is of no value and is

35:58yet occupying very prime position within yourself, it's like somebody encroaching on prime real

36:12estate in the heart of your city, you don't allow the squatters to continue, that sacrifice,

36:22getting them evicted.

36:28And it sounds like now it's just become an excuse to party, get drunk, do stupid things.

36:34We said right in the beginning, religion could either be something that helps the inner child

36:40grow up, or it could become something like a toy in the hand of the child, and a rather

36:52enfeebling toy, a toy that keeps the child, the child.

37:03Because it doesn't ask the child to look inward.

37:09It tells the child you're already grown up, just as you said that we think we already

37:16know, so we don't ever come to know.

37:20Similarly, this rather harmful toy, organized religion, tells the inner child that you already

37:30have truth and liberation and the real thing, whereas the child really has none of them.

37:40But when you are convinced you already have it, you lose all zeal to look for it, to put

37:48energy into the search, and the search is gone, the inquisitiveness is gone, and the

37:59possibility of freedom is gone then.

38:04So I've talked a lot about the bad examples of religion because they're so obvious and

38:09in my face, but what are the good that religion has done to this world?

38:18You know, the great Indian saint, Kabir Saheb, there are words from him, he said,

38:31ना होते जो सादु जन जल मरता संसार।

38:38He said, if in absence of religion, had religion not been there, the world would have simply

38:51burnt itself down to ashes.

38:55You see, man is a tremendous animal.

39:00Man carries all the instincts of animals with unmatched firepower in the form of intellect.

39:15Intellect that manifests itself as knowledge and then as technology.

39:23So we are animals with huge guns and nuclear arsenals.

39:32If we have even to this date managed to somehow survive with at least a bit of sanity, it

39:43is due to the becoming effect of religion.

39:50It's evident what the shortcomings of religion are, it is evident how polluted and corrupted

39:56organized religion is, but we do not realize that religion is also, true religion is also

40:07the basic source of all goodness.

40:11Where does compassion come from?

40:16Who will tell you that what we usually call as love is not love at all and that there

40:22is something called true love which is possible to us?

40:27Religion does all of that.

40:30So if there is anything that you see as good in the world, you wouldn't be wrong in calling

40:42it as something religious.

40:44That's the service of religion to this world.

40:49Religion is again not an ideology.

40:50Religion is not something that you wear.

40:54Religion is your very inner urge to not suffer.

41:01And that way it would mean that all of us are religious.

41:03All of us are religious.

41:04Yes.

41:05Whether we claim it or not.

41:06It says that some people follow true religion and others even with their innate yearning

41:24for freedom somehow due to the effect of ignorance end up following a distorted version of religion.

41:34But we all want to be religious.

41:37In fact, every single desire that any human being has is the desire for liberation and

41:45therefore religion is our first desire.

41:50Religion is at the root of all desires.

41:56So it sounds like it doesn't matter what label you give yourself.

41:59You could be claiming to be religious but very irreligious.

42:04You could be claiming to be an atheist but if you want to be free of your suffering and

42:08you acknowledge it, you're religious whether you claim it or not.

42:13See there is nobody who does not have desires.

42:16And if you have desires, you want something.

42:21Religion is to know what is that something that we really want.

42:30Maybe one last question.

42:34So is there a difference?

42:36So I know I've disparaged organized religion but is there a difference between the founder

42:44of the organized religion and the religion?

42:47Because I remember reading the Bible and the Koran as a child and a lot of it just seemed

42:59to make no sense.

43:01There were fiery gods, there were taboos against things that are considered normal today and

43:06I'm reminded of a quote by Gandhiji in South Africa.

43:11Someone asked him, why don't you like Christians?

43:13And he says, I love your Jesus.

43:15I just wish more of you Christians were like your Jesus.

43:22You see, on one hand it is true that Christians are probably not much like Jesus, Buddhists

43:35are not so much like Buddha, Muslims are probably not so much like Muhammad, that is true.

43:45But you must also realize that true religiosity is beyond the founders of religious streams.

44:02It is your own inner urge.

44:04It is something very very intimate to you.

44:09Would you say you won't be religious had some other great person from the past not

44:17brought those things to you?

44:21We need to be grateful to the ones who brought the teachings to us.

44:29But then the fact is that you anyway needed them on your own and even if somebody else

44:40did bring the teachings to you, you still need to go through the long and arduous and

44:51very demanding journey of self-observation.

44:58Otherwise the teachings just won't suffice.

45:02So on one hand, it's good that we be grateful to the greats from the past.

45:12On the other hand, we must realize that the responsibility is very much our own.

45:22Just going through the motions, just restricting ourselves to what has been said in the scriptures,

45:32just calling ourselves followers of religious sects or religious personalities, won't take

45:39us very far and I'm saying that along with the humble submission that mankind has benefited

45:52a lot due to the contributions of the sages and the seers.

46:01But still, it is your life and irrespective of how much others have tried to help you,

46:11you still need to fight the battle very much by yourself.

46:24So I have to study for the exam?

46:26You have to study for the exam.

46:28Somebody else might have provided the textbook, that's alright.

46:35And even if the textbook does not exist, let's see a calamity strikes mankind tomorrow

46:43and all the textbooks get destroyed, it is possible.

46:48We are not very different from the dinosaurs, it's possible.

46:54You would still need religion or would you say now that no religious books exist, therefore

47:00no religion exists.

47:02That's not true.

47:03As long as man exists, religion will have to exist.

47:08Religion can't be a thing of the past.

47:10Religion has to do with our suffering of this very moment.

47:15How can it be a thing of the past?

47:17How can religion ever be dead?

47:19As long as we are there and our consciousness is there, the need for religion is always there.

47:27This makes a lot more sense when you reframe religion as honest self-inquiry to stop myself

47:33from internally suffering.

47:36It seems like part of the human condition, not something that's an imposed outside value

47:48account.

47:49You see, within us we have these two forces, there is the force that we are born with in

47:59the physical way, that limits us as a body, and then there is the deep, deep urge to be

48:10liberated.

48:18The forces of bondages within us can play havoc even with the agencies that assist our liberation.

48:35Also religious books and conventions are examples of such possibly helpful agencies.

48:50Our inner darkness purposefully distorts them so that they are no more effective towards

48:59our liberation, and when they do get distorted, then the same darkness that distorted them

49:07now mocks them and says, see how foolish all religion is.

49:13The question is, who turned religion into this stupid display of foolishness, of ignorance,

49:25of everything that is despicable, who distorted religion to this extent?

49:33We did that, and it is indeed very remarkable, very very interesting that having distorted

49:42religion, now we say that religion is a force of corruption, it's like the Ganga emanating

49:51from the Gangotri, pure and clean, and by the time it reaches the low-lying areas, you

50:03pollute it and you add all kinds of nonsense to it, and you also divert the waters, you

50:09do this, you do that, all kinds of stupid things that we do with our rivers, and then

50:13you say, oh see how filthy the river is, is the river filthy or did you turn it filthy?

50:22And if the river is filthy, would you bury the river under some giant sand dune or something,

50:29or would you rather cleanse it and purify it, remember you need the river, and remember

50:36in spite of your need for pure water, you were the one who polluted it, that's how foolish

50:42you are, but instead of the spectacle of polluted religion becoming a reminder to us of human

50:54foolishness, to us it becomes a reminder that everything in the past was nonsensical, and

51:07today we are super smart and wise and we need to throw away all the garbage called religion,

51:16that's how stupid we are, that's how stupid mankind has always been, and that's why we

51:22need religion, but even as I say all these things, I obviously fully agree that what

51:37we see in the name of religion today is not a liberating force at all, religion is in

51:44dire need of purification, and in fact if you say that so-called religious people are

51:56worse off than non-religious or irreligious people, then I would probably agree.

52:09So it sounds like we've taken this thing that was meant to help us and in our self-destructive

52:18way we've just rebranded it, so we don't have to use it and we can continue in our ignorance.

52:29The teachings are handed over and it ultimately depends on you what you want to do with the

52:37teachings, you could turn them into something very dead, very ritualistic and use them

52:45as things of self-harm, that's what we said, even if somebody has done a great work for

52:52you in the past, it depends on you today how you want to use the work for yourself, how

52:59you want to take the work forward, it's your own intention and urge that ultimately matters,

53:05otherwise of no use are even the greatest of teachings.

53:16Thank you HRIJ, thank you Darius, this has given me a lot to think about even though

53:25the thought is limiting, we'll continue with this at some other point, it's a long and

53:37very important discussion, and I know I have other questions as well, we'll go more into it.

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