We exist, and we do not || Acharya Prashant, with NIT Trichy (2021)

Acharya Prashant

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Transcript

00:00Good evening. I am here for a discussion with you sir. Yes, please. My question is that

00:09it's pretty evident that I exist and you exist and also you stated that ego doesn't exist.

00:18Great. Yes. So, when someone calls you Acharya Prashant and you reply, isn't that an identification

00:29which reflects an ego? It is a thing that is useful to the other. Yeah, it is a utility

00:40for the other. It is a utility for the other. Would you make an absolute statement that

00:46spiritually, would you make an absolute statement that I am not Acharya Prashant, I am something

00:52else? Not to you. Which only I know. Not to you. To you, I will say something that is

01:02useful to you, that I am the absolute. The absolute can be uttered only to the absolute.

01:13The absolute and the false cannot engage in a conversation. So, that is why even when

01:21the truth has to engage with the ego, it uses words. Remember that every single word

01:32represents a concept and is therefore in a sense flawed and false. But to engage with

01:41the ego, one has to have an identity, one has to use words, one has to act in a bodily

01:48way. Otherwise, even the body is false. But who is that one? Isn't that one again nothing

01:54but an ego? Which one? No, when I said one has to engage in an inward conversation with

02:04the ego, but who is that one who has to engage the conversation with the ego? Isn't it again?

02:08That is, that one is the one the ego has been craving for. The ego is the questioner, right?

02:18Because the ego does not have the solutions and answers, right? So, there is something

02:24that the ego desperately wants. So, there does exist something beyond the ego. That

02:32is the one. Okay. So, if the questioner is ego, then the answer is again ego. The answer

02:40is ego, yes. Is again ego. So, what I am trying to say, there is some kind of, okay, I have

02:47many questions actually, I don't want to pose it in the follow up, but are you trying to

02:52say there is some observer who is behind the questions and answers? No, you should be asking

02:58if the questioner is the ego and the answerer is the ego, then is there a way the ego itself

03:07can help the ego? That should be the question. Yes. Yes. The answer there is yes. The truth

03:18is absolute, but not useful because the ego cannot touch the truth. The ego cannot communicate

03:27with the truth. Therefore, it is ego at a higher level that is useful to ego at a relative

03:36lower level. That's why we have stages of consciousness, hierarchies. I have many questions

03:49regarding this fundamental definition. Please. What do you mean by consciousness? So, on

03:54my screen there are the two of us, you and me, that's consciousness. To say I am and

04:01to perceive a world around you that you call as the other, that is consciousness. But the

04:09other is the appearance, right? The other is the appearance in your mind. So, there

04:15is the experiencer and there is the experienced object. These two are consciousness. Both

04:24together complete consciousness. You cannot have just one of them. Yes, one doesn't exist

04:35without the other. Like for example, there is no doer without the doing and there is

04:38no speaker without the sound. Yes. It's true. Independent of what it is conscious of. No.

04:47You cannot have consciousness independent of its object, of its appearance, of its object.

04:55There is the subject, the experiencer and unfortunately what we call as the common consciousness

05:04always requires an object and that is at the root of all our suffering. So, what is saying

05:13in an uncommon consciousness both the experiencer and the experience disappear? Need not talk

05:19of that because we are trying to understand that uncommon thing from a very common point

05:25and that is not useful. Oh, sir, I am here for absolute like understanding whether it's

05:34useful or not. No. Spirituality is about, first of all, starting from what is provable.

05:43Right now, the absolute is just fiction to you. Spirituality is not about gossiping about

05:50fiction. I don't know if the absolute is fiction but the word absolute is definitely fiction

05:57to me. Yes, and let it remain fiction. What we must care about is our immediate life because

06:04that's the reason the speaker and the listener are corresponding. If everything is alright

06:11in our immediate life, then there is no need for this discussion. This discussion happens

06:18because we perceive something amiss, because there is an inner hollow. So, that's what

06:28we must talk about. Spirituality proceeds on very, very real grounds. It does not dabble

06:37in imagination. It does not talk about this or that God or heavens or imagined universes.

06:45It talks about how you are living right now. Therefore, its aim is amelioration of immediate

06:55suffering, not discussion of imagined entities or fiction or whatever. Scriptures do state

07:04that self is an inaction. So, how would you convince this to a commoner that despite him

07:15listening to you, we have to convince him that his true self is not the listener.

07:24It's very easy. You see, right now, let's say 10 of you are listening to me, let's say.

07:32What I am saying is probably one thing. I am not uttering 10 different statements, but

07:40the 10 who are listening to me, if they are asked to write down what I have just said

07:48and then exchange notes with each other, you will find a great deal of variance in the notes.

07:55In fact, you might find that some points in the notes contradict each other. Now obviously

08:03had the listener been one, there could have been no variance. Therefore, the listener

08:13cannot be called to be the truth. The listener has a great deal of subjectivity and that

08:21subjectivity is what brings about haziness and falseness. So, the one who is listening

08:29is usually not listening for the truth. The one who is listening is usually listening

08:38from his own center to defend his own interests and that's what brings about the variance

08:46in the notes. So, it's an easy thing to just see and prove to yourself.

08:51No, to a commoner, for example, the club of Omega has conducted this meet. So, from the

09:03absolute point of view, it's like stating, you are not the one who is conducting the meet.

09:08That's very true.

09:10It might sound crazy for someone who is not.

09:14Yes, and you must be prepared to face that craziness because you see, not only have you

09:19not conducted this meet, you are also not the one uttering these statements right now.

09:26Yes, exactly.

09:27Wait, wait, wait, no, no, wait. You are also not the one who probably chose to take admission

09:34in a particular college. You are also not the one who falls in love with a particular person.

09:39You are also not the one who goes towards a particular food choice or sartorial choice.

09:46We are driven by the configuration of our body and the conditioning of our mind. Therefore,

09:56we are really not the doers or the actors and that is very, very easy to see. When you

10:03see people moving about in herds, when you see people making choices as a crowd, then

10:15it is obvious that those people do not exist as choosers because there has been no choice really.

10:23It's either your body that decides for you or people outside of you and conditions outside

10:29of you that make the choices. So, therefore, the chooser does not really exist and there

10:36is no complication in communicating this to the other provided one has clarity. So, do

10:42not think that there is something so crazy that you cannot just communicate it to the other.

10:48It's possible and it's also facile.

10:51It's like, it sounds crazy for someone who hasn't actually gone through it. For example,

10:59you just go for a 10 kilometer jog and you come back and you have to accept the fact

11:03that you are not the one who jogged 10 kilometers.

11:05Yeah, you can have, for example, a Google car and it has done 10 kilometers, has it

11:10done anything on its own? A Google car, forget any car, your car, its dashboard, it's telling

11:19you it's done 2 lakh kilometers. Has it done anything on its own? And it's possible that

11:26the driver of the car is just another car.

11:30Yes, that was good, that was a very good analogy. So, what you are trying to say, the concepts

11:37of effort, choices are just illusions, effort.

11:42You know, if you can see that, it will take you very very far or very very close to yourself.

11:48Yes, true. What we call as effort is basically the sensations and the little thought that

11:54very highly identified thought, which we call as effort.

11:58Don't even need to say that much, just say what we call as effort is just like the heating

12:05up of the car engine. Much fuel has been burnt, lot of energy has been dissipated, a lot of

12:13distance has been covered, but nothing really has been done, because there is no chooser there.

12:21Right, I think this is a very important statement which people should understand, because they

12:26live with the notion that they can actually do something, when that very form or the appearance

12:34of doing is, it comes out of nowhere, there is no particular explanation.

12:40But at the same time, kindly don't rush to conclude that choice is not possible at all

12:47or that free will cannot exist at all.

12:51Potentially it can, actually it does not, and that's the travesty of human life.

12:58Our potentiality remains uncovered.

13:01A car has no choice, the car is never really going to make a choice, even potentially it

13:06has no choice, but as human beings, it is possible for us to go beyond our configuration

13:13and conditioning and make great choices, make free choices.

13:18Unfortunately, we do not do that.

13:21Again, choices only, they increase the individuality, the choices and the efforts, all these.

13:29Most of what we call as free choices are just conditioning in another garb.

13:36Okay, I have one more question, which is like, the philosophy which you support, called Advaita

13:46Vedanta, it treats self as an entity.

13:52Which self?

13:53The false or the real one?

13:54The real.

13:55No, it does not.

13:56So, does it?

13:57Okay, maybe I am not very well informed.

13:58You are not.

13:59I had a doubt, if it is an entity, then an entity should be made of smaller entity.

14:08No, no, no, no, no, the true self or the absolute is not even something you can think of.

14:18That's why I said absolute to the ego is just fiction.

14:22It is not an entity, it is not material, it is beyond mind, beyond intellect, beyond comprehension.

14:29The eyes do not reach it, the mind cannot think of it, the tongue cannot talk of it,

14:35so it's not an entity of it all.

14:38I am saying it does not exist at all in the way we use the word existence.

14:43Okay, but existence, we define it in general, it's defined by the forms, right?

14:53We say this exists.

14:55It has a form, it has a smell, it is something that can be ideated, it is available to mentation

15:04and conceptualization, even when it did not exist, it firstly existed as an idea.

15:11The truth, the self cannot exist even as an idea, let alone a material form.

15:16Yes, but I have a question in the middle, which is, are you trying to say that the truth is formless?

15:22No, what I am saying is the truth is nothing that you can think of.

15:26If you say truth is formless, again you have violated the truth.

15:30Yes, yes, the very formless, that word again is a form, I get what you are saying, great.

15:36I am trying to actually say, let me say what it's not, rather than focusing on what it is, let's see what it is not.

15:46That's the way of Advaita Vedanta, that's the way of Advaita Vedanta, the way of negativa,

15:53the way of negation, neti neti, just say what it is not, so that you stay clear of falseness.

15:58I had a lot of troubles, I was getting caught up with the word, the moment I tried to define

16:04it, the very definition becomes the object of interest, it goes and it was a continuous

16:10loop, it went on and on and on.

16:13Stay with the negation.

16:15I just came to know, to be honest, I can never say what it is, I can only say what it is not.

16:21Yes, yes, yes.

16:22And then I had to go by that way.

16:24Okay, sir, thank you very much for answering, but I have one more question.

16:28Please.

16:29A question, which is, it is stated that the self or the fundamental nature in every life

16:39is same, it's non-dual.

16:42Can you logically prove it to me?

16:45Go back to the previous discussion, the one that you are having just a minute back.

16:52All that can be proven, all that can be proven is that which all sentient beings think of

17:02their nature is false.

17:04You cannot prove that their real nature is one, but you can prove that whatever they

17:11call as their nature is not their nature, it is false.

17:15So, they are united by way of this negation, negate everything that they think of or believe

17:24in or identify with and you are left with this nothingness and all zeros are equal to

17:31each other, right?

17:32And that's the way the height of consciousness or the base of consciousness or the non-dual

17:39nature of all beings is one, because all zeros are equal to each other.

17:44That's just a way of putting it.

17:46You get this?

17:48I get what you are saying, but is it even right to conclude that consciousness is one

17:53or it is not even one?

17:55No, it is not even one.

17:56The scriptures put it very clearly.

17:58It is not two.

18:01You begin with actually two million and they say all diversity is false, so not two million.

18:09Then not two and then not even one, not even one.

18:14Okay, so you are saying only it is.

18:19Don't say that, don't say that.

18:22Okay, I'll say what it is not.

18:24So, it is not two, it is not one.

18:27I'll leave it like that.

18:28Yeah, stop there and when you stop there, the ego stops and that's the goal of all spirituality.

18:35Okay, the discussion with you actually brought a lot of ideas in my head.

18:40I can't believe I came up with the negation.

18:43It's like sometimes you get the way, but suddenly you forget about the negation.

18:49And then you go back to the old ways, searching what is it.

18:52That's a trap, that's a trap to never think of anything as affirmative.

18:59Nothing concludes anything, nothing proves anything.

19:03A word for the truth is aprameya and aprameya means that which cannot be proven.

19:11It is beyond all proof.

19:15It is beyond the might of the one trying to prove.

19:19The truth is beyond prama.

19:21It is aprameya.

19:23Prameya, okay.

19:25The next one is going to be very basic question, sir.

19:29Like two questions, two basic questions.

19:33It's often observed by the speaker that the word awareness is being used in the places

19:43where the word knowledge should be used.

19:47For example, awareness for LGBT activism.

19:52Is awareness the right word to be used or is it knowledge?

19:56Does that surprise you that we conflate the highest with the middling?

20:03That's the way we all live.

20:06That's the way the world is.

20:07Awareness is the highest word that there can be.

20:12But just as in our lives, we have no respect for the highest.

20:16Even our language has no respect for the highest.

20:19Yes, sir.

20:22And then very often people are being taught how to concentrate in all the meditation camps.

20:29In the process that they will attain something called highest.

20:34But if we actually concentrate and get something, isn't it more of an accumulation?

20:44So, my question is, could you differentiate between these three key terms called awareness,

20:49attention and concentration?

20:52Awareness and attention both have…

20:55Since you said it's the highest, at least define what concentration or attention is.

21:00Yeah, I'm doing that.

21:03In both concentration and attention, there is an object.

21:08Okay?

21:10In concentration, the concentrator, the subject, is looking at that object with an intention

21:22towards self-preservation.

21:25For example, a cobra appears in front of you, you will concentrate on it.

21:32The intention is not to understand the cobra, but to save your own life, self-preservation.

21:41When the exam dates approach, you concentrate on your textbooks.

21:47The intention is not really to understand what is going on, but to somehow survive the examination.

21:56That's concentration in which the intention of the subject is self-preservation.

22:01Right?

22:02You are looking at something and you want to remain who you are.

22:07In fact, you are looking at that thing in a very focused way just to secure your own existence.

22:14That is concentration.

22:16It's again of the ego.

22:19Obviously, where there are two, there is the ego.

22:22So, that goes without saying.

22:24Right?

22:26Now, come to attention.

22:28In attention, again there are two, but the intention changes.

22:33Now, the attentive one is saying, my existence or continuity or preservation do not matter.

22:41I am looking at that object to understand that object.

22:46I am attending to that object.

22:48I am a servant to that object.

22:50The object comes first, I come later.

22:53The object comes first, I come later.

22:55Here again, obviously, the whole process, the phenomena is dualistic because there are two.

23:00But the intention has changed.

23:03You know the word attend.

23:04Attend means to serve.

23:05I am a servant of the object I am looking at and that is attention.

23:11And if the process of attention goes deep enough, then obviously you keep the object

23:19so much ahead of yourself, you keep it so much more important than yourself,

23:24that your own size diminishes greatly.

23:29It diminishes so much that figuratively it is said that you disappear.

23:34And that disappearance is awareness.

23:38In attention, you attend to the object you are looking at.

23:43You are experiencing, perceiving, whatever, focusing on, whatever.

23:47It is in your sensory field or mental field, whatever.

23:50And that object you have evaluated to be so very important that you forget all about

23:57your own security and you let that object reign supreme.

24:03When that object becomes so much important to you, it becomes so big to you,

24:08then your own size diminishes.

24:11And your own size can diminish so much that it can be metaphorically said to have reduced

24:22to near zero.

24:26And that disappearance of the self, the perceiver, the subject is called awareness.

24:33What I am saying, am I audible now?

24:35Yes, you are audible now.

24:37Sir, as you explained about awareness.

24:44So, can we understand this awareness with the help of any example?

24:50No example is possible.

24:52You can have examples of things and objects.

24:55You cannot have an example of disappearance.

24:57You are asking me, can there be an example of nothing?

25:02Awareness means you are gone.

25:04I am saying a player totally indulged into playing.

25:11Can it be said that he is in that state?

25:14He can be very attentive, but he cannot move into awareness.

25:19Reason is simple.

25:21In attention, the one you are attending has to be so extremely dominating,

25:30so very beautiful, so worthy of adulation,

25:35that you give your consent to your reduction or disappearance or annihilation.

25:43You do not want to die for trivia, do you?

25:46You would want to lay down your life for only something colossal.

25:52Now, a player is not involved in anything colossal.

25:55Therefore, he can have attention, but not awareness.

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