Who knew? Mazan mass rape trial shocks France
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00:00Rape is rape. Giselle Pellicot, emphatic on the stand Wednesday in a trial that sent shockwaves
00:08well beyond France's borders. The 72-year-old retiree batting away suggestions that the
00:1450 defendants invited by her ex-husband to enter their bedroom when she was under sedation
00:21could have engaged in anything other than non-consensual sex.
00:26Pellicot has drawn admiration for her decision to waive her rights to protection from the
00:32public eye and to sit front and center in the courtroom every day since the September
00:372nd opening of a trial that's due to last till December in the southern city of Avignon.
00:43We'll be asking about that choice in a case that raises questions about individual guilt
00:48and collective responsibility. How many in the picturesque Provence village of Mazan
00:54knew? As her mental and physical health deteriorated over a period of years, it was only when gendarmes
01:00investigating a cold case came across lewd photos shared over the internet that she discovered
01:06the horror. Why did no one come forward? Statistics show women and girls do speak out more in France.
01:13They file more complaints with police. Are they more easily believed? In France, high-profile
01:19cases have come to light in the wake of the Me Too movement this past decade. But is there still
01:25what some feminists see as a culture of rape that too often pervades? Today in the France24 debate,
01:32we're asking about the Mazan rape trial and with us is Cynthia Ellouz, founder of news and
01:38media platform The Women's Voices. Thank you for being with us here on France24.
01:43We're also joined by Emma Siebee, advocacy coordinator for the Coalition for the Abolition
01:51of Prostitution. You're also a spokesperson for the Mouvement du Nid. Explain what the
01:56Mouvement du Nid is. Mouvement du Nid is a grassroots feminist organization that provides
02:01holistic support to persons in prostitution in France. We fight against the prostitution system
02:07and we advocate towards its end. All right, and thank you so much for being with us. Thanks as
02:12well for joining us nine times on the way in Victoria, British Columbia. Omni Khan,
02:18researcher and associate professor of law at Carleton University. Welcome to the show.
02:25Thank you for having me.
02:27Your reactions on the hashtag F24 debate. Yeah, it's third week of the Mazan rape trial
02:33and after Wednesday's hard-hitting testimony by the wife of Dominique Pellicot,
02:38one of the defendants, a supermarket clerk, admits there was never any consent. Charlie James has more.
02:48Giselle Pellicot met with applause as she arrives at the courthouse in Avignon.
02:53The men accused of raping her while she was unconscious take pains to hide themselves.
02:59In court Thursday, one of the few defendants who has admitted to raping Pellicot
03:05offered an apology. 44-year-old Lionel R, a father of three, spoke directly to Pellicot and said,
03:13I am sorry. I can only imagine the nightmare you've lived through and I'm part of this
03:19nightmare. I know my apologies won't change what happened, but I wanted to tell you that.
03:24Still, Lionel R tried to pin some of the blame on Pellicot's husband.
03:3051 men stand accused in the mass rape case that has shocked the world. Over the course of 10 years,
03:37Pellicot's husband, Dominique, drugged his wife and then invited strangers recruited online to
03:43rape her. On Wednesday, lawyers for some of the men interrogated Pellicot about her personal and
03:48sex life, even questioning whether she was truly unconscious during the encounters.
03:54In her testimony Wednesday, Pellicot denounced attempts to paint her as anything but an
04:00unwitting victim. Since I've arrived in this courtroom, I've felt humiliated.
04:05I'm treated like an alcoholic, an accomplice. Pellicot's lawyer said his client was prepared for
04:11this. It was a challenge, but it was a challenge that's as important as the stakes. By accepting
04:18that this hearing be public, she wanted it not to be held behind closed doors without anyone seeing
04:23how a rape trial could take place. Pellicot said Wednesday that forgiveness does not exist in this
04:29case. Her lawyer said her goal is to send a message to other victims of sexual abuse
04:35that they must not be afraid to file a complaint.
04:39Cédric Aylouz, this is the most followed court case since that of the 2015 terror attacks. It's been quite the week.
04:50There was the husband and the ex-wife who've both testified this week. Watching that report,
04:58first question, the fact that here she is, we know her name, Giselle Pellicot, she speaks in front
05:03of the cameras. The defendants, they've kept their right not to be identified by their last name.
05:12Yes, you know, Giselle Pellicot was really brave to go in front of the public, but I think it's
05:20really important because here we are really facing something. We're really seeing a wake-up call about
05:28this case. Giselle Pellicot was heavily sedated and what happened is we really realised what is
05:38violence against women, crime against women on a daily basis. We are also discovering this
05:46phenomenon of chemical submission. We're discovering that Rufy, a woman, is not only at night time
05:55in a bar, it's also happening behind closed door in a relationship, in a couple. So that's
06:04very terrific and she's very brave to give this testimony in front of the public.
06:12Very brave to give it in front of the public. The case resonating indeed. There were rallies
06:18across France last weekend which prompted this message of thanks on Monday by the victim herself.
06:25I have been deeply touched by this outpouring of support, which leaves me with a sense of
06:34responsibility. Thanks to all of you, I have the strength to fight this battle to the end,
06:40a battle that I dedicate to all women and men around the world who are victims of sexual
06:46violence. To all these victims, I would like to say, look around you, you are not alone.
06:54I'm pleased to be joined by attorney and activist Rachel Flore-Pardot. Thank you for
06:59being with us. Apologies for Paris traffic in this case. Let me ask you, Hema Sibi, because
07:08the clip we just heard of Giselle Pellicot was on Monday before she took the stand.
07:13On the stand, it was gut-wrenching and she described how hard it's been being in the public
07:18eye. She has, and this trial is an important moment for women. It shows that the MeToo movement
07:25is an ongoing movement. It's not a thing of the past. First and foremost, we commend her courage
07:32and bravery and determination in her quest for justice in having those abusive men condemned.
07:38The fact that she refused to go in camera for the trial also opens the door for all the women.
07:45It breaks the silence around the voices of women that testify on the violence that they have been
07:51subjected to at the hands of men. This case for us is really a milestone because 44 years ago,
07:58Giselle Halimi, who is a French lawyer and activist, was actually bringing the case of the
08:04rape trial. That's what we call the rape trial. It ended in France having a definition of rape
08:11in its criminal code. You mean that before that, there was no definition of rape in France's
08:17criminal code? No, not before the rape case in 1974, 1978. That happened at the time and today
08:24in 2024, the legacy is that this trial is not the rape trial, but it's the trial of the rape culture.
08:32It's the trial of the mechanisms of objectification, of dehumanization of women by men,
08:39the trial of toxic masculinity that is being fed by porn, by prostitution, and by this culture
08:46of commodification of women. We literally have a man, a husband, who made the body of his wife
08:53available for other men to unleash their sexual violence on. This is pure atrocity, but it really
09:00shows the structure of patriarchy in our society and how women are subjected to sexual violence in
09:06many ways, including chemical submission, money coercion, or physical psychological violence.
09:15Daniel Perico, he got in contact with these men. By the way, there's 50 others on the stand,
09:21but the police say there's more. They just haven't had enough proof to catch them.
09:28He got in contact with these men over the internet. Does that make this something new,
09:36that's something you wouldn't have seen before? Is this case an outlier case,
09:42or is this part of just something that's always existed?
09:48I wish it was an outlier, but I think with the advent of the internet,
09:53there's a way that people lower their responsibility, and then they get into a
09:59collective mindset. The men who get contacted by the husband, or who contact them, they think that
10:07their responsibility is not, they don't have any, because now they can look to him to give the
10:14consent. I think that part of the pleasure for the men is not just the assault, but the male bonding
10:21that happens through these discussion groups, through this subcultural conspiracy to humiliate
10:30Mr. Perico's wife. It's important to remind viewers,
10:35Omni, that rape is not an act of sex. It's an act of violence. Are these men wanting to engage
10:43in violence? I mean, I think that it's a form of, yes, I think it's a form of violence,
10:50and I think what's so tricky about it, and you hear this about the men's testimony, is
10:56they want to pretend it's some kind of experimental sex game, when all of the premeditation,
11:03and how they met the husband, Mr. Perico, shows that it was actually about humiliating her,
11:10which is a form of violence, and then the actual acts themselves are violence. But they want to
11:16believe, and I think in part, part of the problem is the definition of rape in France, which I've
11:21been studying, which is, really focuses on kind of explicit violence. But when you do chemical
11:28submission, and then assault, that is also a form of violence, and that needs to be recognized as
11:34violence. You don't need a person who's awake saying no. The chemical submission is the form
11:39of violence, and then the attack. Yeah, when the week began, at least one of the defense attorneys
11:45was casting doubt over whether there could have been a measure of consent. Let's take a listen.
11:53This is not American law, in the sense that in France, you don't need to have obtained the
11:57victim's consent in order for there not to be rape. For there to be rape, the perpetrator's
12:02criminal intent must be proven. If the perpetrator is mistaken or misunderstood,
12:07the court of cassation always says that there is no rape. Even when the victim is in a coma.
12:13So we will examine the question of coma to determine on a case-by-case basis whether or
12:18not there has been a coma. We refute it. Rachelle Flore-Pardot, that line of defense, what do you
12:24make of it? Well, defense is free, so that lawyer is free to choose the defense line he prefers.
12:31Anyway, I also understand very well why this defense line has shocked in France and abroad.
12:38It shocked people in France. It shocked people in France, obviously, because that lawyer also
12:42said something. He said there is rape and rape, suggesting that there will be two different types
12:49of rape. But this is first, shocking, and second, legally false, because there is only one thing in
12:56France. Ever there is rape, ever a court of justice says that the rape is characterized,
13:03or ever the court of justice says that there was no rape. And looking at what our criminal code
13:10says, it basically says that also rape can happen if it's by surprise or if it is by constraint.
13:19And here, we are in both cases. I, as Gisele Pellico, was basically in the coma, right? She
13:26was not aware of what was happening. So it was both by surprise and by constraint that these
13:33acts of rapes were imposed to her. And this is something that needs to be said.
13:39There are 50 people in the dock. 15 of them have admitted to wrongdoing and 35, not yet.
13:48Yes, like people still, as I say, defense is free. Then the court will have to judge whether
13:54they are convinced by their arguments or not. But what makes this trial so fascinating and why it is
14:01so also interesting for medias abroad to cover it? It's because it's very rare in one case to
14:08have such a big panel of men accused of rape. And this is what we learn here. This trial is
14:16extraordinary because of the number of people accused of rape and because also of the big
14:23media coverage it has. But it is also very normal when we look at the profile of these rapists,
14:30of the people accused of rape. They are basically this friend, this neighbor, this cousin, this
14:35husband, anyone that you could know in your daily life. And we can see that basically the rapist
14:42of the person accused of rape is not a monster. And this is also a trial that is really important
14:48to deconstruct the stereotypes we have of what is rape and who are the men accused of rape,
14:55because for many years we've seen rape as something that will only happen outside. And
15:00we could barely imagine rape to be possible in your own house, in your own bed. And this trial
15:07reminds us that it does happen in your own homes. And it's also something that we need to keep
15:14deconstructing in order to help basically victims of sexual violence speaking up and the justice
15:21system to give justice to these people. One word on this point and then we'll talk more about the
15:28profiles as mentioned there by Rachelle Fleur. Cynthia, I notice a lot of the defendants are
15:35talking about impulses, about addictions. Your thoughts on this? Yeah, I was, you know,
15:43it was wrong what I did, but I'm a sex addict. Yes, what is sure is the really importance of
15:51pornography in sexual cases. Dominique Pelico said that nobody's born a rapist, that you become
16:03a rapist. So it's really showing the impact on pornography. You know, he met those different
16:10men. You mentioned 50 on the trial, but the police find 83. So 32, because one is dead,
16:19are still free today. So the importance of the pornography is here. They met on the website
16:26and the file was called against a will. So there's not really any doubt about the consent
16:33of those men. Just to explain, this was a sort of a hookup site for people who were into kind
16:43of deviant sex. Yeah, this is a chat. The website was closed because it was involved in many cases,
16:50including pedo pornography cases. And the file of the chat of Dominique Pelico was called
16:58against a will. So no, really any doubt about the knowledge of those men, about what they're
17:05going to do, practice a rape, a rape on her. And, you know, this is really shocking. And we were on
17:14the protest this weekend with many women, a few men also, because what here is exceptional,
17:24it was mentioned is women gathering also to say the importance of this case, because this is a
17:34historic case, historic trial by the number, by the sheer magnitude of evidence
17:41seized in the computer of Dominique Pelico. And, you know, usually on criminal trial,
17:49this is the problem of the proof. And usually it's one word against another. It's she said,
17:56he said. And here we have a lot of men involved, but we have also a lot of proof. And it's going
18:05to be very interesting to go into those files. Yeah. Again, it's running till mid-December.
18:12And as Rachel Flore-Pardot was just mentioning, there are various profiles among the 50 others
18:19that stand alongside her ex-husband in the defendant's box. It's not a village of rapists,
18:25one resident tells regional newspaper, La Provence. It's throwing the world spotlight on
18:30a village of 6,000 in the foothills of the picturesque Mont Ventoux. And the
18:37profiles of the 51 accused are indeed varied. Eliza Herbert has more.
18:43Some of these men are gardeners, nurses, firefighters or engineers,
18:48others retired or volunteers, even fathers aged between 26 and 73. And they are all accused of
18:56raping Gisele Pellicot at the invitation of her then husband, Dominique Pellicot,
19:01in their home in southeastern France between 2011 and 2020.
19:07These are people who are not delinquents at all, who for the most part have clean criminal records
19:13and had normal family lives and professional activities. And they found themselves involved
19:18in this case, which is obviously a very important one. 35 of the 50 co-defendants maintain they are
19:25not guilty. Some claim they too are victims manipulated by the main defendant Dominique
19:31Pellicot, even saying they thought his wife was on board, despite never seeking consent from her
19:37directly. But a key testimony on Tuesday could prove lethal to their case. Finally addressing
19:43the court, Dominique Pellicot himself said explicitly that they all knew they were taking
19:48part in the abuse and that they cannot claim the contrary. The only one not accused of directly
19:53abusing Gisele Pellicot is a man called Jean-Pierre M. Instead, he has admitted to copying the crime
20:00and replicating it against his own wife to rape her, sometimes with Dominique Pellicot involved
20:05after the pair met online. My client is very malleable and very naive. That's what the reports
20:11show. Well, quite simply, he walked into this. He doesn't have the personality to say no.
20:16While the stories of these men may vary, they all share one thing in common.
20:20They are now at the center of this disturbing case that is exposing a reality of sexual violence
20:26to France and to the world. Omni Khan, tell us, there you heard the defense, one of the defense
20:32attorneys there saying my client doesn't have the ability to say no. You know, again, it's this
20:38question of are they predators or are they addicts? Your thoughts listening and the other
20:46defense attorney in that report saying my clients are not delinquents at all.
20:53Yeah, it's, you know, it's like they're trying to defend themselves. And so they want to frame
21:00what they're doing with the language of mental illness. By using the word addiction, they're
21:05trying to take away their own responsibility. And I think it's so interesting. I just note that he
21:11says like, I couldn't say no. So now he's positioning himself as someone with sort of
21:17inferior will, when the crime is about exerting your will over a woman and treating her like
21:25she's an object. And so the actual crime shows an actual impulse to want to dominate and humiliate
21:31and hurt. And now they're trying to paint themselves as a victim. And I, I find it hard
21:37to believe. Yeah, I, and I find it, it's very convenient to try to blame others when all the
21:46evidence indicates that they knew exactly what they were doing. And we did have this, this moment
21:53on the stand this Thursday where the man admits that he realized that he'd done something wrong
22:00and that he realized that what was going on was off.
22:05Yes. And then the question is, how is it that you didn't do something and actually act at that
22:12point? And, and so, I mean, what I find terrifying about this case really is the total lack of
22:19empathy for the victim. There's only a connection between the men and in conspiring to do this
22:28attack. But when you're right in front of this person, they're there flesh and blood, you don't
22:34feel any empathy for her. And that is what I find terrifying. And the fact that they did it through
22:40this unconsciousness makes me think, okay, they thought they were going to get away with it.
22:44And how many people would do something like this if they thought they could get away with it?
22:50Yeah. The equivocation coming not just from defendants in the box,
22:55there's outrage after remarks made by the mayor of Mazan speaking to the BBC.
23:04It could have been far more serious. There were no kids involved. No women were killed.
23:08The family will have a hard time, but they can rebuild. After all, nobody died.
23:14After all, nobody died, Hema Sibi.
23:17I think this says it all because it really shows how deeply entrenched our rape culture is and the
23:24culture of silencing women. And you know, she's just a mere object. So her life is not valid.
23:31Nobody died, but she was raped by 50 men at a very minimum. I think this case had the merit
23:38of showing that rapists are Mr. Everybody. It's not just this monster, as we often have this myth
23:48of the rapist that is a monster that is alienated from society. But actually, the rapist is around
23:54us. It's our brother. It's our father. It's even our grandfather, our coworker. They come from all
24:00walks of life. They have very different profiles, but yet they have two things in common. They are
24:05men and they have this complacency. They have this sort of abject male solidarity in the
24:13justification of their violence against women. So, you know, the comments that we hear,
24:18even from the mayor, really dismissing the horrific experiences of Gisele Pellicu is
24:27very archaic. And the defense, sorry. No, I was going to ask you, because you talk about
24:31a culture of rape and just to explain for our viewers, what does that mean that the whole of
24:36society has a culture of rape? Some people have a culture of rape and what is that culture of rape?
24:41The rape culture is that the society allows for violence to be committed against women.
24:47The society structures this violence and organizes also this violence by levers of impunity
24:55for men that perpetrates this kind of violence. The rape culture is also a culture that fosters
25:01the objectification, the sexualization of women, their dehumanization. It's everywhere. It's
25:07layered in our society. It's the perception of women, for example, in cinema, in arts, in music,
25:14where women are often portrayed as being very like passive beings, as beings fragmented into
25:20body parts, but not as real human beings. They would be seen as, you know, like a pair of breasts,
25:25a vagina, or just like a body, but not with her face on. So that's kind of like the weight of the
25:31rape culture that I'm speaking about. And the rape culture is very much present in this case,
25:36because when we hear the defendant's arguments that are being used, it really shows, you know,
25:43how much sexual violence is entrenched in our society. It reflects the contempt against women.
25:50It reflects the height of misogyny when one of the defendants says, for example, that the husband
25:56consented, so he didn't feel like he did something wrong when he raped Giselle Pellicot, as if the
26:03wife was the ultimate property of her husband, as if the husband had every rights over his wife.
26:09And another defendant was saying, well, I thought she pretended to be sleeping, as if, you know,
26:17having a woman that is unconscious in front of you would mean that she's consenting. These
26:23arguments really show the height of the rape culture, and our society is also responsible.
26:28Is it getting better or worse?
26:31It's not getting, it's getting better, but there are still some progress to be made. First of all,
26:35because right now, what we see is that these men that are in trial also live in a society that is,
26:41you know, that groomed them by porn, by a culture of objectification of women,
26:46of dehumanization of women. When we see in France that the first view of porn is nine years old,
26:53it's a very early age. The biggest porn platform, which is Pornhub, or the most famous one,
26:59has content and categories that include rape and sleeping. And of course, this echoes the case,
27:06because it allows men to get sexually aroused seeing a woman that is actually inert,
27:12seeing the inert body of a woman. So another example of this very rape culture is the website
27:19coco.fr, which has been shut down, you know. As it was mentioned, it was a place where pedo-criminals,
27:25sex buyers, pimps were just like exchanging intimate content, dehumanizing content,
27:31sexist and racist content on women in total impunity.
27:35Rachel Fortpardot, it was interesting earlier, because when I asked you about the
27:39the line of defense, you kind of batted that away saying, well, what they argue in the courtroom
27:45doesn't matter all that much. What matters more is the bigger, wider societal debate. Am I
27:50paraphrasing correctly? No, I'm not sure that's what I meant, but I just wanted to build up on
27:55what was just said, because you were speaking earlier about internet and the role internet
28:01may play in rape happening or not. Obviously, rape does not need internet to happen, right?
28:06But internet does make it easier. And internet does play a big part in spreading the rape culture
28:14through pornography, including having these videos online that promote, that include
28:20pornographic films with sleeping women. And this is something that must be enlightened.
28:26And then I want to say something else. If the 51 persons that are in this courtroom had
28:33one thing in common, it will be that they're all men. And so we often see people saying online,
28:40not all men, but a lot of men. And what I want to say is that obviously not all men are rapists,
28:48but almost all rapists are men. So this huge, this mass rape trial that is now occurring in France,
28:56must lead us to collectively reflect on what is patriarchy? Why do so many men still believe
29:04that they are allowed to impose the act of sex to women? Why do men believe that because
29:10a husband said that the wife had consented, that it will mean that the wife is indeed consenting?
29:16Is it simply because, generally speaking, men are physically stronger than women?
29:21No, it's not only that. It's also a matter of general equality, you know,
29:25because it's not only a matter of strength. It's also a matter of influence, of power, of money,
29:31of all what makes men in so many different occasions in a position of power and of
29:38authority towards women. This is also why at the heart of the fight against sexual violence
29:46lies the fight for equality between men and women, because the more men and women will be
29:52really equal, and I do not mean just in the legal text and or have the same rights, I mean equal in
29:58the daily life, the less there will be opportunities for them to use power and influence to impose
30:05acts of rapes and sexual violence to women. And I also want to say that the feminist battle has
30:12no borders, and it's quite moving and amazing to see women across the globe rising up to show
30:18support to Gisele Pellicot. And I do think that this trial is showing to the French public but
30:25also to the world what is the reality of sexual violence, and it is why I'm also thankful for the
30:31media coverage. Your channel and other channels and other medias across the world are giving this
30:36trial, because I really think that if Gisele Pellicot is standing strong, if Gisele Pellicot
30:41decided not to have this trial in private and decided to sacrifice a little bit of her privacy
30:48to show the world what sexual violence is, it is in order that shame changes sides, and by making a
30:55lot of noise, we are finally answering these years and years of silence and shame, and we are giving
31:02a hand to maybe other victims to speak up. Omni Khan, sitting on the Pacific coast of Canada,
31:10when you speak with your students, when you talk with colleagues, how does this case resonate? Is
31:16it something French or is it something that could be Canadian? No, it could be anywhere. I mean the
31:27it's so shocking because we have the evidence of this, but the research indicates exactly what's
31:34been said on this panel, that most women who are raped are raped by someone they know, and a partner
31:41is someone who is a person who actually can be very dangerous for many women. So in that
31:48sense, it's not, you know, it's not France specific. The thing I think is maybe a little
31:54France specific is the definition of consent, and the fact that it's not clear that a woman's
32:03affirmative consent is necessary for legal ethical sex, I think is something that it does seem
32:10different to us, and maybe something that hopefully will change, because that is an
32:18issue that has happened before, where men will find a woman unconscious, even if it's not premeditated,
32:23she's drank a little bit too much, and they think that entitles them to have sex, and that that will
32:29be legal. So in Canada, that's very clear now, that that's not affirmative consent, and so
32:35therefore sexual assault. And so I'm curious about the movement in France that's trying to
32:40update the definition of consent, because I think that would be a helpful thing to challenge rape
32:46code. Yes, I'm also advocating to have the word consent written in our criminal code and in our
32:54definition of rape. No, it's not fair, but I want just to make something really, really clear.
33:00The word consent is not there, but of course, it's basically very clear in our criminal code that
33:08if the woman was sleeping, if the woman was in some sort of coma, basically if the woman was
33:14not aware of what was happening, or was not able to resist to it, it is rape. It's super clear.
33:21If it is what is described, it is rape. So in the actual definition, it is already allowing
33:29to characterize any types of sexual action that will be imposed to somebody who is sleeping or in
33:35the coma, to be characterized as the criminal crime of rape. So I just want to make it clear.
33:40Yeah, that's an interesting point. So you're saying that this won't set some kind of major
33:45jurisprudence, whatever the ruling is? I don't know. We are at the very beginning of this trial,
33:50right? This trial is meant to last for a whole month. It has started for only two weeks now. So
33:56we'll see what's the decision of the court. I cannot tell you what it is. But what I want to
34:01say is that I just want to reassure all women that could maybe listen to us and wonder that maybe
34:07today in France, it's allowed to impose an act of sex to somebody who is sleeping
34:13or somebody who is in the coma. And I just want to say that it is not.
34:16Cynthia Ellouz, there's one main suspect, of course, which is the ex-husband,
34:22Dominique Perico, who was taken ill and wasn't present in the courtroom for more than a week.
34:31If he doesn't, if he takes ill again, if he's not there until the end of the case,
34:38what will happen? We were a little bit scared about him to be
34:42not showing at the trial and it should be rescheduled. And you know, this is a very
34:48problematic thing because there are more than 50 other men involved. I want to say something about
34:55what Rachel said. She said, not all men. This is what we are seeing on different hashtags.
35:01But I want to add something. It's always almost women, always women. We all experience sexism
35:10in our daily life. We all experience a range of different violence in the metro, in our work,
35:20sometimes in the couple. And this is very important to understand what is going on. That's
35:26why it's touching a lot of women on the profile of the different men involved. We do have a case
35:34here in France, implying a French deputy called Sandrine Jossot. She's the spokesperson of the
35:41charity we call, say, Don't Sleep Me, Mandorpa, the charity founded by the daughter of Giselle
35:50Perico, Caroline Darion. And she was also heavily sedated by a French senator, Joël Guerriot.
35:59So she decided to work on the topic of drugs and sexual submissions. So she's now investigating
36:09about this whole range of sexual violence. Let's talk about that, because at the heart of the case
36:15is drug-induced rape. The powerful sedatives like Temesta, which is also known as Lorazepam
36:25in this country, it boggles the mind. Women who, for instance, are fed up with having to,
36:31for instance, nurse their drink when they go to a club so that nobody spikes it.
36:35They've been speaking out, as you can see from this graph that was first published
36:40in Le Monde. Soaring are the numbers of cases of assaults being reported using chemical substances.
36:52As you saw in that graph, it's gone way up. Does that mean there are,
36:58again, more of these cases happening, or more women are brave enough to come forward and file
37:06a complaint? Probably both, but probably women are becoming aware about the problem, because
37:13this is the hashtag MeTooBar, meaning that women were on drugs during a night, and even they don't
37:23really understand what's happening. They don't realize that a drug can be here. We have the
37:29case with Gisele Pellicot. During at least 10 years, she didn't realize that she was heavily
37:35sedated. Some people don't believe her. They say, oh, how could she not know? She has so many
37:40problems. She went to different doctors. Even her own daughter thought that she was having
37:46brain problems. So clearly, she has no idea. Even different doctors saw no problem on her,
37:56and just a medical problem. They don't even say something about drugs. So here we have really
38:03raising, I think, awareness about this problem, because I think before those trials,
38:07we never really hear about this concept about chemical submission. We just hear
38:15roofie someone, usually a woman, but at nighttime. But here we are aware about this new term about
38:24chemical submission right now. MSCB, again, I point to that graph, because
38:29what does that tell you, the fact that there are more cases being flagged?
38:35I think in the post-MeToo era, obviously, the voices of women are being more listened to. They
38:41are being more visibilized. Women felt encouraged to speak up more and maybe to complain more to
38:46the police about facts related to sexual violence. But you know, the fight against sexist and sexual
38:53violence in France has been marked by milestones. For example, the rape trial brought by Gisele
38:58Alimi, the Dominique Strauss-Kahn trial, the MeToo era, and now the Maison rape trials.
39:04But it doesn't mean that everything has changed in the right way. What we can see is that, of
39:09course, France has strengthened its legislative machinery, its legislative framework to protect
39:16violence against women. So we have several very beneficial laws. We have laws on sexual harassment,
39:22sexual harassment in the workplace, the presumption of non-consent for a 15-year-old
39:27minor, but the criminalization of the purchase of sexual acts. We have several
39:32legislations that protect women. But what we see is that not enough resources are allocated
39:38to implement these laws and not enough political will to implement the fight against violence
39:46against women broadly and on the whole territory. For example, 94 percent of cases of complaints
39:53for rape end up dismissed in courts. That's a huge number. That means that—
39:59The president of France would argue that he made this a major cause of his first mandate,
40:06and the fact that now police are being trained to no longer dismiss it when
40:12women come in to file a complaint. Things have not improved at all?
40:17Things probably have improved, but what we saw is that the big campaign on women's rights that
40:23was promised by the president was also a communication campaign, because not a lot
40:29of means have been allocated to this campaign. For example, as the Mouvement du Nid supports
40:34persons on prostitution in the whole territory, we see that in practice the law is not being
40:39implemented in a homogeneous way. Sex buyers are not arrested enough. Exit programs for
40:45persons in prostitution that are included in the laws are not implemented enough, too.
40:50We are now struggling with the implementation and the political will to go further with these
40:56policies that protect women against violence. I just want to conclude on a note of hope.
41:05It is fair to say that since the MeToo movement, some things have changed. It's fair to say that
41:12the justice system is taking better care of the sexual violence cases than it used to.
41:18It's fair to say that before the MeToo movement, before 2017, no police officers were taught about
41:27the specificities of sexual violence. Now there should be more taught of the different specificities.
41:33There should be, of course, more means, but it is improving. And also I want to say how important
41:41it is to see all this big movement of support that is going towards Giselle Pellicot today.
41:49How important it was to see these women applauding Giselle Pellicot outside the courtroom two days
41:56ago. How important it is also to see these protests going on in the streets in France to show support
42:03to Giselle Pellicot, but also to all the victims of sexual abuse. And I just want to say that
42:10because for years, shame has not helped people speaking up and showing that now something is
42:17changing. Also saying that the justice system is doing a better job now than it used to and that
42:23it can and must still do better. It is also giving a hand to those people that suffer in silence so
42:31that they can speak up and ask for help. Yeah, in the courtroom every day are members of the public,
42:37both male and female, who are rooting for Giselle Pellicot.
42:46We have the impression that women's voices are not heard enough.
42:50I'm facing this issue next year because my daughter is a victim of rape.
42:55So we are going to court next year. I wanted to support something that is also dear to me.
43:00Will there be a before and after?
43:10Yeah, definitely. It's a huge trial. What we probably are going to learn about it is
43:18we really need to change education on lawyers too also, because you remember the president of the
43:27Vaucluse courtroom opened a statement saying we're not going to call the act rape but sexual acts.
43:36So it's really minimizing the facts. When we're talking about rape culture, this is really what
43:44does it mean. Lawyers, judges talk about this and we really need to reinforce our education system.
43:54You mentioned the president, Emmanuel Macron. I think a few steps have been done but we need
44:00really to improve and all women are gathering together to push this movement and to fight
44:07against violence against women. Cynthia Ilouz, I want to thank you so much. I want to thank
44:11as well Emma Sibi, Rachelle Flore, Pardo, Omnicon for being with us from Canada.
44:19Thank you for being with us here in the France 24 debate.