Draconian- Homosexuality in Uganda PART 2 of 2
This is a retrospective documentary about the situation of homosexuals in Uganda during the controversial debates around the infamous ” Kill the gay Bill” proposed by David Bahati in 2009 to the Ugandan Parliament and passed as Act in 2013.
The Act was dropped by the supreme court as “not conform to the constitution of Uganda” only few months later, leaving a deep scar on Ugandan’s Human Rights
With several one to one interviews, I captured both sides of the issue from pastors, politicians, teachers, activist and artists.
(Including the mister of ethic and integrity, the British producer David Cecil and the well known gay activist Dr Frank Mugisha)
The result is a crashing variety of opposite mentalities with only one thing in common, Uganda.
Produced filmed and edited by William Ranieri
This is a retrospective documentary about the situation of homosexuals in Uganda during the controversial debates around the infamous ” Kill the gay Bill” proposed by David Bahati in 2009 to the Ugandan Parliament and passed as Act in 2013.
The Act was dropped by the supreme court as “not conform to the constitution of Uganda” only few months later, leaving a deep scar on Ugandan’s Human Rights
With several one to one interviews, I captured both sides of the issue from pastors, politicians, teachers, activist and artists.
(Including the mister of ethic and integrity, the British producer David Cecil and the well known gay activist Dr Frank Mugisha)
The result is a crashing variety of opposite mentalities with only one thing in common, Uganda.
Produced filmed and edited by William Ranieri
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LearningTranscript
00:00Is it correct to criminalize homosexuality?
00:15Now the answer now is yes.
00:17Even under the present law, it's actually provided, and that was one of the arguments
00:24we were giving to these MPs who were not listening, because we were saying, but you are creating
00:29all this chaos.
00:30But the law is already there.
00:31There's nothing new about criminalizing homosexuality, because the British had already done it.
00:38The whole world is dwelling a lot on it, because it's just a bill.
00:42Regarding the old law, not the bill, because that bill had been passed into law.
00:47Fortunately it was passed into law by the British, the same people trying to fight the
00:53new amendment.
00:54So whether it's passed or not, the law in Uganda is already there, that it legalizes
01:00homosexuality and anything to do with sodomy.
01:05Legalizing this kind of practice will bring in place a lot of crazy behaviors.
01:09Like you find some people now starting to even propose to marry their pet dogs, because
01:15they'll say, I have the right, and dogs are also animals, they have the rights as well.
01:21So those crazy behaviors will start coming in.
01:23Like if you see, they don't like those traditional ones, they don't like air conditioning, they
01:27don't like polyesters, and they even used to not like eyeglasses.
01:31That is one of the reasons as to why I would say it's not right to have gay.
01:35Two consenting adults who said they're going to have anal sex in their privacy, if we don't
01:39know about it as the other citizen, if the law never catches up with them, that is okay.
01:44But if they do it and the law catches up with them, that's the law.
01:47Look here, laws are not made that we shall necessarily like them.
01:52A common Ugandan would not be afraid of LGBTI issues, but they are more afraid about having
01:58bread and butter on their table.
02:00There are recent attempts to even criminalize it further, even though it was already criminalized
02:07during colonialism.
02:09Because the law says you can't be a homosexual, and your court and proof for that offense
02:16is there, then the penal code will take its course.
02:19That is my opinion as well.
02:21If, as a black person, you were to ask me, because I'm saying that homosexuality or lesbianism,
02:34people should take their time until more people are won over to the idea that both of them
02:43are bad, people are thinking differently, and I'm saying, don't go too fast.
02:50Don't spoil your cause when it comes to homosexuality and lesbianism.
02:59Would I accept that for racism, for example?
03:03I would say no.
03:06Because racism, most people in the world now know that it is wrong, so you can go faster.
03:15There are people that I know, and whom I admire, who think that homosexuality and lesbianism
03:23are evil because they don't follow, that's how they put it, I'm not putting it that way,
03:28they don't follow the Bible, for example, on these matters.
03:35Let us not forget that they should be supported, that the homosexuals and lesbians should be
03:45supported, but if they are supported too much, before people get used to the idea,
03:52will this put their cause back?
03:54That's what I would say.
03:56So, do you think most of the Ugandans are homophobic?
04:01I'd say a very high number, yeah, I would agree.
04:07A lot of people are homophobic, like right now when I'm in school, a couple of my friends,
04:15they're not all Ugandan, but some of them are originally from here, right?
04:19They have a problem with it sometimes, they say it's not right, it's not human.
04:25But for me, I say it's okay, it's how God created them, they chose it when they matured,
04:36so it's going to stick with them forever, they can't stop it if they wanted to.
04:46It will be very, very dangerous, I may be killed, everyone will get to know who I am
05:00in the country, which is very, very bad.
05:03It became very hard when they realized who I really am, so they decided to send me away
05:13from home.
05:14It's like a curse in the family.
05:18It was very hard even for me to accept that I'm a gay, but I am.
05:27Do you remember your first episode of homophobia?
05:30Yes, when I used to do sex work, it's when I was attacked when I was coming from work
05:37in a hotel.
05:39I was dressed in a patra and with long hair with my cap and high shoes, so I fell in a
05:46gang of policemen and they kind of arrested me and they began beating me up, they cut
05:51off my hair, they took my bag, they took off my shoes, they undressed me, they humiliated
05:56me in public, they were calling a lot of people to come and see and saying, come and see this
06:00homosexual.
06:09How did you become gay?
06:14You become homosexual, but you're not born with it.
06:16You're not born with it.
06:17Nobody's born homosexual.
06:18It is a spirit.
06:19It's just a spirit, a spirit moving around and people are being told to do that.
06:25It's a spirit.
06:27You can't be born a homosexual.
06:31Gay partners will always bring up gay children, whereas straight married people always bring
06:38up gay children.
06:39Are you actually born homosexual?
06:41Do you think someone can become homosexual?
06:44No, I don't think so.
06:46Someone can't just do something that you don't like.
06:48You're born, I mean, people can't change.
06:50You're born that way.
06:51You can't change yourself.
06:52Like me, I was born, like from childhood I've always felt like I'm a girl trapped in the
06:56wrong body, in a boy's body.
06:58So there's something I feel, even sexual orientation and gender identity, maybe even gay men and
07:03lesbians, it's just they're oriented into it, so they are born that way.
07:07They just can't choose to be who they are.
07:09It's inborn.
07:11Because one of the main concerns in Uganda is that you can actually recruit other people
07:16to become homosexual.
07:17Yeah, because they think it's a Western culture, it's non-African, it's ungodly, it's like
07:22the West is putting in money so that we should recruit children in schools.
07:27That's what they think, yeah.
07:29And would you like to give a direct message to the people out there that think that you
07:35can recruit someone to become a homosexual?
07:38People should know that queer people exist in the whole world.
07:43There is nobody who is recruited.
07:46Queer people exist in the whole world and we exist and it's reality.
07:51We want recognition.
07:53We want to live the way we are supposed to be.
07:56And we are Ugandans.
07:57We belong in the country.
07:58Let them join us in solidarity to fight the bill together by social media, posting, writing
08:04messages on Facebook and everywhere so that we can fight this homophobia.
08:15Criminalizing a group of people because of who they are is absolutely unacceptable in
08:21a democratic society like Uganda where we have ratified international human rights instruments
08:29that say we should consider the human rights of every individual, however minority, however
08:36insignificant, the mere fact that they're human beings entails us to respect the human
08:43rights of those individuals.
08:45What do you think the gay community wants to achieve by changing the sex orientation
08:50of all the Ugandans?
08:53I fail to understand because as such I don't see any value.
08:58One, the purpose of sex, at least for those of us who believe in the deity, is for procreation.
09:08I'm sorry to use obscene language but what I know is what is produced in the sex act,
09:15the sperm, must go somewhere.
09:17Tell me where it goes when it is applied in the back.
09:21Where does it go?
09:24Why do you think there are so many gay Ugandans, they never left this country, they're actually
09:29still gay?
09:32I think that is through the media, or social media, it can also be through social media
09:38then getting exposed to some of those things like movies and some other documentaries that
09:45they watch, they get access to, and some of the things they read them through the paper
09:49and they think, maybe this practice, I think I would be so strange if I get engaged into
09:53this, and I would attract the views of the community.
10:01Before you became an atheist, were you following any particular religion?
10:05I was die-hard Catholic, hardcore, rosary Catholic, on my knees every night before I
10:12go to bed, church every Sunday.
10:15And then what happened?
10:18And then I wrote, I was sent to write a story about this atheist organization called Freethought.
10:24And I went for one meeting and I loved it.
10:27Sure, they were blaspheming God the whole time.
10:31It was so blasphemous.
10:33But I liked, I was always an open-minded person, a liberal person, and I respected everybody's
10:38views.
10:39And I found their views entertaining.
10:41Then after a while I began to find their views entertaining and logical.
10:44And then after a while I began to find their views very true.
10:47Then after a while I just crossed over.
10:50Yeah, I'm here.
10:51That's where I want to be.
10:53Welcome.
10:55Homosexuality is not now.
10:58It's even Sodom and Gomorrah, many, many years ago.
11:02But now it is turning out to be an issue.
11:05By then it was like something by the way, but now it's really an issue.
11:12Now it is causing an issue.
11:14They are saying that we give them rights.
11:16We allow them to do this.
11:18We allow them to go to church and get married.
11:21So that's why it is really becoming a real, real issue, serious one, that somebody has
11:27to be left to do what they want.
11:30As in Uganda, the way it is today, the culture of the people were very conservative.
11:36And I would say that there will not be tolerance for homosexuality unless that conservativeness
11:42goes away.
11:43I may give very many opinions here, and they may sound homophobic, but I'm not homophobic
11:46at all.
11:48I think I have friends that I truly know that are homosexual, and we can sit and have a
11:52drink together, and there are no more people.
11:54What is here, they believe that someone chooses to be homosexual, and oh, it's a vice in
11:59our society.
12:00You've taken on a bad habit.
12:03If God created a man and a man, then I don't know, maybe God would have liked it that way,
12:09would have wanted it that way.
12:11But now God created man and a woman, such that we can do reproduction.
12:17Because a man has a reproduction part, and the woman has a reproduction part.
12:22So, and if you begin man and man, then I really wonder, because I hear that now they have
12:29allowed them to adopt children.
12:32Why do you adopt children, and you are man and a man?
12:35So, which means that you don't want children, love don't love children.
12:38If you want children, go and get a woman, and get it in the right way.
12:44So for me, as an individual, I really condemn homosexuality.
12:48I really condemn that.
12:50It is not biblical.
12:52I believe in progression of societies.
12:55I think it's a progressing society, and there is no easy or hard and fast rules on how you
13:03can be able to combat prejudice, especially when it's meted out by culture and religious
13:12institutions, which are the basic tenet of society in Uganda.
13:18So I think society will have to keep evolving right from the start, up to when people are
13:27comfortable with those different among us.
13:30My generation is a different one.
13:33And as long as we are more than 50% of the total population, then change is inevitable.
13:40You are asking about the finding from Ugandans themselves.
13:45You see, almost more than 90% are opposed to homosexual practice or same-sex relationships.
13:54And some are so strong against it, and that category that is so strong is mainly those
14:07above 35 years of age.
14:10And the older these people, the respondents we interviewed were, the more stark or starker
14:19against it were.
14:21But the younger people are more accommodative, even talking human rights language in favor
14:31of the homosexuals or people who have different sexual orientation.
14:36In Italy, when I was in Italy in 1982 to 1994, homosexuality and lesbianism was a strange
14:49thing.
14:50And people looked at us as real perverts, people without the right orientation.
14:55But now, because of pressure, I still call it modernization, it's legalized practice,
15:02and these guys can move up and down.
15:04You can see persons of the same sex hugging and manifesting romantic feelings to each
15:11other, which in those days was like, is this one mad?
15:16Yes, the situation is bad in Uganda, but at least the government has withdrawn the force,
15:26the force with which they wanted to condemn and fight homosexuality.
15:34But this happened because of the international intervention.
15:38And secondly, is that it takes time, like it has taken time in other places.
15:47And over time, there is going to be increased tolerance.
15:54But a number of things must be done.
15:56There must be consistent research, consistent debate, and consistent engagement and support.
16:05That is inevitable.
16:07Because you can imagine if there was no intervention from the international community, if there
16:14was no struggles by the LGBT community itself, if there were no academic debates like we
16:25are having, the situation would be absolute.
16:29No homosexuality.