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00:00Just could you give us a brief introduction, Bob, where you're from and what club you've
00:12been along into?
00:13Yeah, of course, yeah. Obviously, I'm a student at RFC, I'm currently the head coach, so I
00:20predominantly look after the senior section, but obviously I try and embed our culture
00:25throughout the club then, so I work closely with the internal coaches.
00:29Okay, thanks, Bob. Thanks very much for that. I know you've been here a couple of years
00:34and I know that you've known him from old as well at St Genneth, lad. Obviously, taking
00:39a job up at St Genneth, he was going to have his challenges, and what type of challenges
00:44did you come across?
00:46Well, the main challenge, first of all, was the changes in the team, in the dynamics,
00:52so we lost a lot of players and we kind of had to take a couple of backward steps, so
00:57we had to wait patiently for some of our youth teams to come to the forefront. So the
01:02main challenge, first of all, was just to steady the ship, try and embed the culture,
01:07which was trying to get away from a fixed mindset, trying to get a bit more of a growth
01:10mindset because we knew we were in Division 1, so we knew it was going to be a tough season
01:14because we didn't quite have the squad to be able to compete at the top end of that,
01:19it was more about survival. So yeah, it was basically just trying to embed a growth mindset,
01:24look at some of the black box thinking, so trying to just take little learning points
01:27from everything, even the negative stuff, and try and just work towards the long-term
01:33goal then, which was a four or five-year plan to obviously be back in Division 1 and have
01:39a strong, sustainable pathway then, because obviously we lost some players to different
01:44clubs. So the first thing we did was set up a pathway with Bedros then, so we worked with
01:49Ian Gardner and Steph Sankala just to make sure that any players we had to work with
01:53didn't have to move on, but were in the right pathway, and then it obviously opened up the
01:57avenue for them to come back to us then and bring that experience and knowledge back to
02:00the club.
02:01How did that, I know you know Stephen quite well and Ian, but how has that worked for
02:08you over the last year?
02:10Yeah, it's worked really well, it's how you look at it sometimes and what your own mindset
02:15is, so I've got a growth mindset, so for me my job is to, I'm a community coach, so first
02:19and foremost is trying to just better people and make better players, so try and make these
02:23guys, get them things, get them off the streets, because even though we're not in, I would
02:28say we're not in an affluent area, don't get me wrong, it's not a terrible place to live,
02:34it's a great community, but it's not an affluent area, so first and foremost we're just trying
02:37to give people opportunities and make them better players, make them better people, and
02:42obviously that pathway then leads to hopefully better opportunities. So my job is to try
02:46and make them better, make them better players, and then move them on and try and get that
02:50conveyor belt going, so getting the youth up to the second standard, second up to the
02:53first team, and then on to hopefully bedrest, and obviously bedrest do the same, and obviously
02:58the end goal is hopefully trying to create some internationals.
03:01So yeah it's worked really well, obviously there's two ways of looking at it, we do lose
03:05players, so we have to adapt and overcome, we have to realise that if someone does well
03:11we're going to lose that player, so it's just always trying to be proactive and trying to
03:14think one step ahead, and you can see normally the development of players, and kind of prepare
03:18the next one to come in then. But what it does do is it's made our club a focal point
03:25in the area, so we've picked up one or two players along the way the last couple of years,
03:28I think because they see our club as a good place to be, a good learning environment,
03:32and you'll be pushed on into the right avenues when the time is right then.
03:37So you mentioned culture a few times there in the conversation, so can you give us some
03:43examples of what you've gone and done to obviously create that culture within the club?
03:49Yeah of course, so a big thing for me was having players who can be adaptable and can
03:54make decisions, so we try our best to have a player-led policy, so we give them a scaffolding,
04:01we give them a basic infrastructure of team principles, so that was one of the first things
04:06we've done, we had a meeting and the players kind of got up on the whiteboard and come
04:11up what was important to them in the community, what was important to them as a club, as a
04:15player, and we tried to find some evidence there that they would then go back to, so
04:22when they found themselves in a position where they didn't quite know what to do, they would
04:26fall back onto those basic principles. So even though they've got those basic principles
04:29off us and we try and police that and just steer them towards those principles, it's
04:33all done by them then, it's all designed by them, it's their principles, it's their policies,
04:38it's how they want their rugby club to be on their training sessions, their matches,
04:41so we're kind of just trying to create an environment where there's a scaffolding from
04:45basic principles, but then they go and lead the way, so they come up with their own policies.
04:51So from a cultural point of view, I think that was the biggest learning point for me
04:55was because I tend to micromanage a lot of things and it was difficult for me to take
05:00a step back and just let them play it out and let them make the mistakes, because obviously
05:04that's where the best learning takes place, and be willing to have the sessions looking
05:08messy, because obviously there's lots of learning taking place then. So yeah, that was a big
05:12learning point for me, was just trying to take a step back, but it's really important
05:16I think to have the right leaders in place then, and of course they've got to buy into
05:19it, so it was all done by the players, so they selected them. The leadership group then,
05:24I think it was five or six, it's gone up once or twice, or done once or twice depending
05:28on players leaving, but that's normally the infrastructure of the club then, so they kind
05:32of dictate where and where we're going in the future I suppose.
05:36Great, Bob. You talked about leaders, obviously within the group and the players and everything,
05:46how about your fellow coaches and how did you manage obviously, because it's quite interesting
05:52that sometimes you see coaches that go out and it's their ideas and get the players to
05:57buy in, which is great, but obviously other coaches need to buy into it as well, so what
06:02work have you done with your assistant coaches to be able to make sure they're on the same
06:06page?
06:07Well yeah, obviously it's really important to have a solid infrastructure around you,
06:12because obviously I'm predominantly a back, so I've been working the last couple of years
06:15trying to get myself up to the standard of a forwards coach, so trying to learn a lot
06:20more about the set-piece and things like that, so yeah, I do rely heavily on the coaches
06:24around me. I'm fortunate that a coach of James Sollis, so obviously he's a level three coach,
06:31he's a community coach, he's out there doing it every day, so the other coaches then, one
06:36thing I did realise when I came in was there was obviously a lack of coaches within the
06:41club. I was 30, I think I would have been 33, 34, and I was kind of, I didn't really
06:49have anyone above me but Danny Johnson then, who was one of my mentors, but apart from
06:55Danny above me there was kind of a lack of coaches within the club, so it was a big thing
06:58for me to try and develop coaches, so we've tried to get as many coaches as we can on
07:01the level ones, and then on to the level twos, so I've kind of tried to work my way backwards,
07:06so by putting in second team coaches who are qualified and working with them, and then
07:10the same with the youth, and we're very fortunate that way that our mini-section is thriving,
07:15so we've got a constant conveyor belt coming through, so yeah, we hold yearly seminars
07:20at the start of the year, we'll get all the coaches together and we go through our club
07:23principles and our club coaching philosophies, and also we've got something we set up this
07:28year which I feel has been helpful, it's a WhatsApp group, so we've just had all the
07:31coaches of the club on this WhatsApp group, and any nuggets I take then from Twitter or
07:36from podcasts, we try to steer them towards that WhatsApp group, and it just provides
07:41a platform where we can all learn off each other.
07:43There's got to be challenges that you've come up against, whether it's disagreements, whether
07:50it's direction, whether it's the philosophy that you're trying to put up, you know, those
07:56type of things must have come along, and how did you deal with that?
08:00Yeah, so the main obstacle, like I mentioned earlier, was that we were obviously in a position
08:06where we knew week on week we were going to be possibly losing rugby matches, we were
08:10at a tough end of Division 1, we'd lost a lot of players, and we were waiting for those
08:14younger boys to come through, so the real difficulty was trying to be at the forefront
08:19of that, and I hate losing, I was never a good loser myself, and I was kind of the one
08:24at the front telling them that it was okay, we were going to pick up all these little
08:27learning points, we were going to try and go through the video analysis, which has been
08:31really important for us, because obviously we can put the emphasis back on the players,
08:35they can take some ownership there when we show them the video analysis, and it's great
08:38for coaches because we miss so much in the heat of a game, so yeah, for me it was just
08:44the real obstacle was just trying to stay strong really, and just believe in the principles,
08:49and believe in the policy, and just sit tight, and just kind of hope that all the little
08:54learnings, all the little things we were putting in the background would come to the front
08:58eventually.
08:59So it's really staying true to your philosophy and your beliefs really, and sticking in there
09:06even though when times get a bit tough, that you then stay with it, and hopefully then
09:13ride out a bit of a storm that will take you out the other end.
09:18It's interesting that, because there'll be a lot of people who as soon as certain things
09:23start to go wrong, they maybe go back to type, and then go back to that dictatorial person,
09:31because they've tried it one way, and because it doesn't work, they'll go straight back
09:34to a dictatorial coach instead of being quite democratic, and quite open, and sticking to
09:40the core principles.
09:43Quite interesting, you talked about managing fellow coaches, how have you managed a club
09:49from a point of view of managing up, so obviously the club have put you in place, so you've
09:55got your chairman, you've got your secretary, you've got your committee to answer to, how
10:02did you go about that?
10:04It's very similar to how we manage with the coaches and players, it's relationship oriented,
10:12so communication is key, we try and stay in contact as much as we can, I regularly speak
10:18to our chairman, Andy Richards, Donkey, we speak on a weekly basis, and it's normally
10:24just how things go in, what can we do, is there anything we can do as a club to help
10:27you, and vice versa, so yeah, communication is key, really important, and just building
10:32those relationships, so I was very fortunate that when I took the role on, I was assisting
10:37coaching in a different role, and the key thing for me coming to the club, and wanting
10:43to get involved was that it was a blank canvas, they kind of said if you need 3, 4, 5 years,
10:49this is what you can do, this is what's available to you, which in all honesty wasn't a lot,
10:54we try and do as much as we can with our limited resources, but they were really progressive,
11:01and if you say they were more interested in what the club was going to look like in 20
11:04years' time, than what it was going to look like at the end of the season with a trophy,
11:08which was really important for me, because obviously the community club is the hub of
11:12the community, so it's really important this club is left in a better position than when
11:16we took over, so yeah, very fortunate that we're all on the same sheet, we've got the
11:20same plan and long-term goal, and yeah, just communication, that's a big learning point
11:26for me, is just to make sure you communicate, and spend time on those relationships, because
11:30when you get that buy-in, that's the all-important bit, just that buy-in.
11:36Yes, great that you've told a little bit about relationships and people, because they matter,
11:41not only from a point of view of the players, but the people around. What about the club
11:47itself, from a point of view of a feel, and you'll always get people giving you advice
11:55as supporters and everything, but they're good people, good intentions. Have you seen,
12:02I wouldn't say an upsurge, but have you seen maybe a different feel within the club's supporters
12:07and people who come and watch you on a Saturday?
12:09Yeah, of course, yeah, I think it's, people like success, I know I've got a growth mindset
12:16and we look at those small improvements across the line, but yeah, people like success, so
12:20when things go well, obviously the crowds come up, you get a lot more accomplishments,
12:24let's say, but I think it's just really important to remember those times where those compliments
12:29are not there, and with those people who are there, then you tend to respect a bit more
12:34of their opinion, because they've been there for the good times and the bad times,
12:37and as a coach, you're just constantly aware that you don't know anything, really, so the
12:41more I learn about rugby, the more inadequate I probably feel, because there's so much learning
12:46to be had, whether it be through leadership, whether it be through the cultural side of it,
12:50or whether it be just from an acquisition of skill, so yeah, it's been, this year has been
12:57a tough year, being in my last year, I think we were unbeaten for the best part of a year
13:03and a half, going on to two years, so this year's been tough, because we're back in Division One,
13:07and we've kind of started the process again, so the average age of the squad is, I think,
13:1320.5 in the back line, and I think overall it's 21 and a half, so we're very young, and again,
13:19we've lost one or two players again for this pathway, so it's been a tough year, but what's
13:25good about it is that the club have still maintained this good feel, vibe about it,
13:30I think what's going to do us, serve us really well in the future, is that the youth coaches
13:36have really come into their own the last 12 months, so they're doing really well now as a group,
13:40and they've got the youth team basically adhering to the same principles, same philosophies,
13:45even the line-up calls, everything has been replicated, so all our sessions this year have
13:50been more or less with the youth, especially from Christmas onwards, so a lot of like 15-on-15,
13:55small side games, and I think what that's going to see us well through is that they're a close-knit
14:01group, so even the average age of our lads is 20, 21, 22, and obviously you've got the 18,
14:0619-year-olds coming up from youth, so I think the good feel, vibe about the club, even though we've
14:12lost a lot more this year than we would have won for sure, is going to serve us really well in the
14:16future. You talked a little earlier on about having someone to obviously, as you feel all the pressure
14:26sometimes, and it's all on your shoulders as you said, even though you've spread it amongst the
14:32coaches, you're just trying to set that culture, that environment to learn and progress in a right
14:38way for the club. Sometimes yourself as a coach need someone to talk to, and you mentioned Danny
14:45Johnson, I know Danny very well, I played with Danny many, many years ago, a really good man,
14:49so how is that work done? Is it just to being a confident, a critical friend?
14:56Yeah, that's right, yeah, it was definitely an issue for myself, you kind of, the learning starts,
15:01stops doesn't it, when you haven't got someone who can take nuggets off and go to for information,
15:06so yeah, Danny's basically, he's always there in the background, Danny, he's kind of, obviously you
15:09know Danny quite well yourself, he's kind of, he'd be in the background doing all the jobs you
15:15kind of wouldn't expect him to be doing, but he's always there and he's always, he's got some great
15:19advice for me, he watches all the games and he's always a good sounding board, and obviously I've
15:24got, I've been fortunate that obviously yourself have coached me in the past, and Ian Gardner,
15:30so again, experienced coaches who I can always go to for advice when required, and then obviously
15:36my peers, you know, I try to work and spread ideas with a lot of people we've worked with,
15:41Dan Clarence has been really helpful for me over the last couple years, especially the leadership
15:44and cultural part of it, and obviously Jamie Solis, Stefan and Pat McGee down in Bedros,
15:50where we can take things off them and share from them, so yeah, it's kind of, I think it's
15:55really important to have a mentor, I think if you haven't got a mentor you will definitely stagnate
16:00and you will end up just going back to what you know, so yeah, I try and lean on those mentors
16:05as much as possible. That's a really good point that is, Bob, just, if we just go along a little
16:14bit now, we haven't got long left really, just to, just to captulate all this, if you was,
16:20if you were starting this all again and you would say with a different group, what advice
16:25would you give to people maybe trying to, obviously trying to come into a new club and
16:32whatever, what would your advice be? Gross and thick skin, because it is tough, it is tough,
16:42especially if you're coming into an environment where it's going to take a little bit of time to
16:46get the real changes you need, because all those changes get done in the background,
16:49it's not the forefront of everything you do, especially when the level of play you've got is
16:56an improvement, you know, you need to improve them, they're not the finished article by any
16:59means, so it's kind of just working on those, those small little gains, so yeah, that's a big
17:03thing, just be, believe in your philosophy, make sure it's your philosophy, make sure it's the way
17:07you want to play the game, you can watch, you know, you can watch lots of, especially knowing
17:13your players and know what you're good at and what you're not good at, so for instance, myself,
17:17a big learning point for me the first year was that we spent a lot of time on attack shape
17:21and we didn't get much ball, our set piece wasn't quite good enough for that level,
17:26how we were playing against a lot bigger teams, you know, a lot, a lot stronger teams,
17:30so even though we looked on a Thursday night going through our team run, we looked, yeah,
17:33we've, we get a bit of ball Saturday, we're going to do some damage, it was kind of, it was a false,
17:38it was a false realisation for me that we've wasted a lot of time doing that when I probably
17:43could have been working on the nuts and bolts of defensive principles, a lot of unstructured
17:47structure trying to get the guys reacting to turnover because obviously the set piece,
17:51you're losing the set piece, there's lots of turnover ball, so yeah, that was a big learning
17:54point for me which I've taken, taken forward, yeah, so just know your players, believe in your
17:59philosophy because obviously you were the one that's going to kind of be held to it at the end
18:03of the regime and just lean on those, lean on those mentors and make sure you have good guys around
18:09you. One thing I mentioned was the team manager side of it, so the great thing I've got is I'm
18:13just allowed to coach, I'm allowed to do all the background stuff and I haven't got to worry about
18:17all the little things on match day, as you know yourself, there's so much goes into match day,
18:21so much goes into training behind the scenes, whether it be organising the kit and things like
18:26that and sponsorship. We've got a really good team manager, Mike Allatt, and that's worth his weight
18:32in gold because he kind of makes your life a lot easier, so yeah, get a good team manager,
18:36grow some thick skin and really believe in your principles and play with what you've got basically,
18:41you use your own. Yeah, it's building those people around you and understanding because
18:48you've got to trust those people because, you know, you've got to get on with certain things,
18:52you've got to trust people to do their role in what they're doing as well. You mentioned Mike
18:57obviously doing the team manager role and it's vital that you've got someone you know you can
19:01trust and you do it and you get on with it and there's no questions asked really, you get on with
19:06it. You mentioned knowing your players and knowing people, I think that's really a really good
19:13point from a point of view of understanding because I think sometimes coaches are quite
19:19blasé about doing things, about really understanding their players first and what makes them tick,
19:24how do they learn best, what types of things that really, you know, make them tick,
19:31whereas sometimes you go in with a blank piece of paper with an idea straight into it
19:39and then you wonder why people are not picking it up because of the way they learn and I think
19:45you mentioned it earlier on, it's a really big point that trying to understand your players
19:49and learn obviously knowing your players as well and how they learn. You just touched on it Bob,
19:56this is the last question really I've got for you mate, if you could just expand on it. You
20:02mentioned about your structure and the way you played and whatsoever, apart from that one and
20:08that was a learning point, what was your really biggest learning point? If you wanted to hang a
20:12hat on something, what was the biggest learning point you actually have had over the last say two
20:20years? Good question, it would probably be getting comfortable, being uncomfortable,
20:27so just, you know, basically I know it sounds, it's a bit, you know, to a lot of coaches it
20:34might not sound right but just embracing the failure and being comfortable with the failure
20:39and being comfortable in your own skin and knowing the outcomes of those learnings then,
20:43that's the biggest thing I've learned because at first it was really difficult, I would come home
20:47and many coaches can relate to this, you come home and you're still in for a day or two and
20:51then you're trying to put things right in the training week and then if you're doing that week
20:55in week out it becomes really tiresome and really difficult but yeah that's the biggest learning
20:59point for me, if I go back now and basically have a chat with myself and say look things are going
21:03to be okay, just trust the process, I think that would be a big thing because great learning takes
21:08place when things are messy, when it's really, really bad and hopefully one day that stays
21:12in the right step then, when it becomes important.
21:17Well thanks, thanks Bob, thanks very much for those, some great insight to what you're doing
21:23in Syngeniv and the way you've gone about it, again you said some great stuff about trusting
21:29yourself, being authentic, going what you think is the way to go and bring people along with you,
21:35you know, and I think the way you've gone about and done that and I can clearly see now when I've
21:40seen Syngeniv people and I talk to them about, you know, how is it going up there, you seem to
21:45got it, you know, you've got it, you've got it right for where you are at this moment in time,
21:49obviously there'll be more learnings and more development going on but I think you've got a
21:53great structure going on and you work really hard to create that. Just to finish it off I'd say from
21:59from us as well, from you, thanks very much for the chat Bob. Yeah I appreciate that and
22:03I appreciate the opportunity, great to speak to you.
22:10you