What is the meaning of 'indifference to everything'? || Acharya Prashant, on Ashtavakra Gita (2018)

Acharya Prashant

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Transcript

00:00Abandoning desire, the enemy, along with gain, itself so full of loss, and the good deeds

00:15which are the cause of the other two, practice indifference to everything.

00:23Chapter 10, verse 1, Ashtavakra Gita.

00:27Then she proceeds to ask, Dear Acharyaji Pranam, Ashtavakra suggests to practice indifference

00:36to everything.

00:39Also I remember scriptures say, when there is conflict, remain indifferent and be indifferent

00:56to people who indulge in bad deeds.

01:00Will I be able to respond rightly if I am indifferent?

01:09Is practicing indifference the same as witnessing?

01:14How do I practice indifference when I see evil within me and out in the world?

01:25Acharyaji, would you please explain the concept of indifference?

01:32Ashtavakra is saying, be indifferent to desire, the enemy, all the vices, and in the same

01:48breath he says, be indifferent to good deeds, and you are asking whether that is the same

02:01as the stuff that you claim to have read in other scriptures, stuff that says, be indifferent

02:17to people who indulge in bad deeds.

02:21No, Parameswari, not at all.

02:39The mind is conditioned to choose and choose not wrongly,

03:06not merely wrongly, but in the wrong domain.

03:26You go out to buy apples and then you engage yourself in choosing the best orange.

03:49Not that you are not making a choice, not that your choice is flawed, it's just that

04:05the very domain of the choice, the very scope of the choice is invalid.

04:25What is it that you want?

04:29An apple.

04:35And what are you busy with?

04:39Oranges.

04:41And you want to make the best choice amongst the oranges.

04:50And using your intellect, you may in fact succeed in choosing the best orange for yourself.

05:01But that won't help, because the very fundamentals are wrong.

05:19You may feel puffed up on having chosen and obtained the best orange, but then oranges

05:27are not what you need.

05:34Now, if you fail in choosing the best orange, chances are you will choose again.

05:52You will at least see that you are making a mistake.

05:57You may not know what exactly is the mistake you are making, but you at least know that

06:04some mistake is being made.

06:10So if you fail in choosing the best orange, at least there is a chance that you will try

06:21again.

06:22But if you succeed in choosing the best orange, then you are victorious and this victory is

06:31the biggest defeat you can inflict upon yourself.

06:37This victory is your greatest curse.

06:49Man keeps choosing between good and bad, Parameswari.

06:55And you especially are quite conditioned to keep roaming in the world of right and

07:05wrong, correct and incorrect, good, bad, virtue, vice, bhagwan, shaitan.

07:25Man keeps wandering in this world and in this world there are always two poles.

07:31On the good pole sits bhagwan, on the bad pole sits shaitan.

07:37And man considers it a great achievement to have travelled to the right pole, the good pole.

07:49And obviously it's not easy to move to the pole of virtue.

08:05It takes a lot.

08:10And man keeps himself engaged there.

08:16Those who live in goodness look down upon those who live in vices and evil, immoral lives.

08:42What one totally misses is that the choice was not to be made between good and bad.

08:52Good and bad are the part of the same duality.

08:55They can be called as good bad.

08:59Good bad are one.

09:01There indeed was a choice to be made but the choice was to be made between good bad and

09:09dharma.

09:14The choice was to be made between good bad and dharma.

09:20So I have a sore throat, parmissory.

09:27So now here it is and this is something that I really need.

09:32Here it is.

09:36And parmissory here are these two.

09:40Now out of these two, one is delicious, one is not.

09:50One is tasteful, the other has no taste.

09:55And all my life I keep trying to choose between these two.

10:09And what is the parameter I am choosing on?

10:13The parameter I am choosing on is taste.

10:17And I may, on this flawed parameter, make a good choice.

10:27The parameter is taste.

10:29And on the parameter of taste, I choose juice over water.

10:37And I say see I made the right choice because juice is tastier than water.

10:43The fact is the very parameter, the criteria itself is flawed.

10:47The criteria should have been temperature and not taste.

10:52Given my throat, what should be the criteria?

10:58Temperature.

10:59But I totally forgot that.

11:02I forgot who I am.

11:05I forgot to look at myself and therefore I forgot what I really need.

11:12I did make a choice but the choice was between these two.

11:16Whereas the choice should have been between these two.

11:19These two are one.

11:21On the criteria of temperature, these two are one because they both are at the same

11:26temperature.

11:27They both are a bit cold.

11:30And this is different from them.

11:35But instead of choosing between this and this, instead of choosing between these two

11:42which are a pair and hence one and this which is not a part of that pair, I started choosing

11:51between the two elements of the pair itself.

11:59And I succeeded.

12:00I chose juice.

12:06It's a foregone conclusion what happens to my throat now.

12:13And I am so involved with these two that I totally forget this.

12:20And a lot of work needs to be done here because even to make a choice here, one needs to exercise

12:26intelligence, conduct tests, seek opinions and do a lot.

12:31So one thinks that he is gainfully employed.

12:36One thinks that he is investing himself in some productive project.

12:41So what am I doing these days?

12:43I'm trying to figure out which one of these do I choose.

12:50It doesn't matter whether you choose this or you choose this.

12:53You will end up with a very bad throat.

13:00Instead of choosing between these two, you should have come here.

13:04But the very fundamental is flawed.

13:07You do not know the criteria on which to choose.

13:15You just don't know.

13:20Choosing between these two is called morality.

13:24And you have been confined for a long time between water and juice.

13:35Rejecting water and juice and choosing tea is called spirituality.

13:41Come have tea with me.

13:50With a sore throat, if you are busy choosing between water and juice, this is called morality.

14:01A choice is being made, a decision is being made, but that decision won't help.

14:06On either side of the decision, on either side of the divide, you are equally defeated.

14:21Your victory lies here.

14:23You have to reject both limbs of the duality.

14:27You have to reject both the choices that duality offers you.

14:32Morality does not do that.

14:34Morality keeps you confined to duality and says choose good over bad.

14:40Choose virtue over vice, which is alright if taste is the criteria.

14:47But not alright if the welfare of the throat, which is the welfare of the self, is the criteria.

14:58Those who do not know themselves, they can choose on any criteria.

15:02But if you know yourself, you very well know that right now, you need not choose for taste.

15:07You need to choose for temperature.

15:09Are you getting it?

15:12So when Ashtavakra says, be indifferent to everything, he is talking of things, Parameshwari.

15:32All the things are here.

15:35Juice is a thing.

15:38Water is a thing.

15:39Tea is not a thing.

15:42That's the new sutra for you.

15:48Write it down carefully.

15:50Juice is a thing.

15:52Water is a thing.

15:54Tea is not a thing.

15:58So when you have to be indifferent to everything, what is it that you can reject?

16:03Juice and water.

16:05Reject both of them for both of them are just things.

16:10And if you can have a thing, you can have another thing as the opposite of that thing.

16:15Of nothing, there can be no opposite.

16:18Equally, of everything, there can be no opposite.

16:23Yes, Parameshwari?

16:28So when it is said, reject everything, that means reject the world of duality and select dharma.

16:38In strong indifference is a strong decision, a strong choice.

16:48In deep negation is great devotion and affirmation.

16:56When you are deeply negating water and juice, you are strongly affirming tea.

17:08But tea is not a thing.

17:10So the wise ones have preferred not to talk of tea because only things can be talked of.

17:17And tea is not a thing.

17:19They don't tell you what to go with, what to choose.

17:26They resist that.

17:27They avoid telling you what to choose.

17:30But they strongly tell you what to reject.

17:34So they tell you as Ashtavakra does, reject, reject, reject.

17:39Be indifferent.

17:41But please see that when you are rejecting, then you are selecting the pure consciousness, the awareness that rejects.

17:51Aren't you selecting it?

17:54After all, who is rejecting?

17:58There is somebody who is rejecting, right?

18:01And by rejecting strongly, you are selecting the one who is rejecting.

18:06Aren't you?

18:08If you not had faith in the one who rejects, could you have proceeded to decisively reject?

18:17So only the one who has faith in the rejecting entity can reject with composure and totality.

18:27Others will reject in a very lukewarm way.

18:32Their rejection will be 50-50.

18:36For three months there was rejection.

18:39Now there is selection again.

18:53And remember that unless you have a strong devotion to the rejecting awareness,

19:03And why does the pure consciousness or awareness reject?

19:08Because it can select only itself.

19:14It is infinite and pure.

19:16Therefore, it has to reject all things finite and impure.

19:23Which all things are finite and impure?

19:26Well, all things.

19:31So awareness tells you to not to be attached to or obsessed with anything.

19:42Awareness cannot select anything.

19:44Awareness can only reject because the selection has been made.

19:49The selection has been made long back.

19:52Awareness has selected right in the beginning.

20:03Who has been selected?

20:06Awareness has selected itself.

20:10Therefore, there is no possibility of positive selection anymore.

20:17Because the one who had to be selected has already been selected.

20:22The selector is the selection.

20:27Now what is left for awareness to do?

20:32Reject.

20:34So whenever you would be devoted or wise enough to consult awareness,

20:42She would say reject.

20:45Doesn't matter what your proposal is.

20:47The answer is one.

20:49Reject.

20:50And that is called indifference.

20:53That is called Udashinta, Anasakti, Virakti, Vairagya, Sanyas.

21:02Remember that awareness cannot select.

21:07Awareness would just reject.

21:09And that makes it so easy for you.

21:12Doesn't matter what the question is.

21:13The answer is one.

21:15So you need no preparation.

21:17Now you know how I am able to answer your questions.

21:20Doesn't matter what you say.

21:22I just have to reject it.

21:26Because you never come up with tea.

21:28All you come up with is juice and water.

21:31And I know that's what you would do.

21:34Whenever you would come to me with tea,

21:37I would have no option but to select.

21:45But you won't do that as long as you are you.

21:50You would have no respect for warmth.

21:55You will always come up with something cold.

22:01And that would definitely be rejected.

22:06This thing about indifference, Nirpekshata, Udashinta,

22:19has been the bane of all spiritual seeking.

22:25People have just not understood what it means.

22:30You can be indifferent only to the little.

22:34You cannot be indifferent to the immensity that you yourself are.

22:45When you are indifferent to the little,

22:48then you are vigorously with the great, the lovable.

22:58In the name of indifference, do not start ignoring dharma.

23:09Dharma involves strong affirmative action as well.

23:20In dharma, both the possibilities are there.

23:24Move forward, move backward.

23:33Stay where you are.

23:36Move forward with great speed.

23:38Move forward slowly.

23:40Go left, go right.

23:41Fly, dive.

23:49Like an amphibian vehicle that flies as well.

24:02A flying crocodile.

24:05Now what do you have?

24:07All three dimensions covered.

24:09Water, terrain, and the sky.

24:14So dharma gives you all the options.

24:20The option of acting vigorously in life is very much available

24:26when you are on the path of dharma.

24:30What is dharma, Parameshwari?

24:32Tea.

24:34Dharma is not morality.

24:36Dharma is not netikta.

24:39When you have rejected all dualities,

24:42then you have come to the default state.

24:48And the default state is dharma.

24:54Ashtavakra gives it a beautiful name.

24:57He just says dhi.

24:59That's your default state, dhi.

25:05And your homework is to discover that particular sutra where he talks of dhi.

25:16I hope it's not getting complicated for you.

25:18I try to keep it as simple as possible.

25:22So you reject the world of morality and the world of morality is this.

25:27It is now rejected.

25:29The world of duality, the world of good versus bad.

25:32That is rejected.

25:34And when it is rejected, then by implication you have selected the world of dharma.

25:40And this is dharma.

25:42A great attraction towards the truth.

25:46Devotion towards only the truth.

25:48That is dharma.

25:50Now this has been selected.

25:52And selecting this means selecting the world of great possibilities.

25:59How is selecting this?

26:01The same as selecting infinite possibilities.

26:05We said dharma is devotion to truth.

26:08So when you select this, actually you are selecting slavery.

26:16Now you are a slave to the truth.

26:23Let's promote the slave a little.

26:25Let's now designate him the driver of truth's car.

26:33Now does this driver have a personal destination to go to?

26:40What is the driver going to do?

26:45So truth says go left.

26:47The driver?

26:49Truth says drive slowly.

26:50The driver?

26:52Truth says accelerate.

26:53The driver?

26:54Truth says fly.

26:55It's an amphibian vehicle.

26:57Truth says take off.

27:00The driver?

27:01Truth says dive.

27:03The driver?

27:04All the possibilities are open.

27:06Because the slave has no compunctions.

27:12For the slave nothing is prohibited except disobedience to the master.

27:18That is the only thing prohibited to a slave.

27:21All else can be done and must be done.

27:25If the master says keep driving straight 60 miles per hour,

27:31the slave will keep driving at 60 miles per hour.

27:36So dharma cannot be about a particular conduct.

27:41Please see this.

27:43When you choose the world of duality,

27:46then you confine yourself to either this or that.

27:52Either this or that.

27:55In dharma, this, that, both are possible.

28:01What?

28:07Only this and that are possible?

28:08No.

28:09Cat, bat, hat and rat are also possible.

28:12Nothing I said is impossible in dharma except disobedience to the master.

28:23Therefore, those who proceed on the way,

28:32gain great liberation in terms of action.

28:36The action of the common man is very constrained action.

28:43Tremendous limits are imposed on him.

28:46Do this, do that.

28:49The man of dharma knows no such limits.

28:54He fights no holds barred.

28:57The rules of the world do not apply to him.

29:01He gives them no respect.

29:03For his respect is reserved only for the one.

29:09To him nothing is prohibited except we said disobedience.

29:17He sees nobody else.

29:19His eyes are firmly set on the master.

29:23He knows nobody else.

29:25One truth, one master.

29:29I know nobody else.

29:33He doesn't even say my master is one of the best.

29:38He says there is only one master and no, no one but him.

29:45He will not put any qualifying or limiting conditions on the master,

29:54on the center of his movement, on his very heart and soul.

30:02He says only one is known.

30:04Who are all the others?

30:07They may have been greats.

30:10I do not deny that.

30:12But pardon me, I do not know them.

30:15I know only the one and if that one tells me to do a somersault,

30:22here is a somersault.

30:26And look, the vehicle has somersaulted.

30:33That a moral man cannot do.

30:42How do you know a moral man?

30:44His car won't somersault.

30:48Simple.

30:54That's why on the way, the greatest of adventures welcome you

31:00and equally the greatest of tragedies await you.

31:13The way is not a passage through the neighborhood orchard

31:22where only nice shady fruit trees are there.

31:28Little kids are playing.

31:32Some dry leaves are falling on the path

31:36and occasionally a cherry or an apple also drops down

31:47and it's also picturesque and romantic.

31:51No, that's not the way.

32:00The way is a jungle in which there is no way.

32:06Make your way so all the possibilities are there.

32:08You see, in the orchard, you are limited

32:14because the path, the pavement has already been set and decided.

32:20In the jungle, all the possibilities are there.

32:27Run straight, climb up a tree, take a bath.

32:38It's great freedom.

32:44Are you getting it?

32:48I'm not sure.

32:50The way of morality is very neat.

32:54It is the way of the householder who gets up every day at 5 a.m. and takes a bath.

33:02That's the way of morality.

33:09Get up at the right time, take a bath and be called the ideal householder.

33:19Celebrate all the festivals, worship all the gurus,

33:27salute all the gods and goddesses and be called the ideal lady.

33:36That's not the way, permission me.

33:43Is the opposite of that the way?

33:46Not even that either.

33:48You cannot get up at 5 a.m.

33:51Who said that you cannot worship?

33:57Tea is not the opposite of water or is it?

34:01Tea is what you need.

34:03Tea is not the opposite of anything.

34:05Please, tea is not defined by water.

34:09When you say tea is the opposite of water, what is the center of definition?

34:14Water.

34:15You have taken water and now you are saying I want something opposite to it.

34:21Tea is not the opposite of water.

34:23When you are looking at tea, then you are looking at yourself.

34:27Your thirst, your need defines tea.

34:33Spirituality therefore is not the opposite of morality.

34:38Spirituality is when you transcend morality.

34:43Morality is when you look at mores, the norms, the morals.

34:49Spirituality is when you look at yourself.

34:52You get the difference.

34:56Morality is when you have been told of this and that either by others or by your senses.

35:08Morality is when you are giving yourself gratiation.

35:17You are saying I will do that which is acceptable to most people

35:24and that will bring me security and pleasure and respect.

35:30Spirituality is when you are giving yourself peace.

35:40Are you getting it?

35:50Will I be able to respond rightly if I am indifferent?

35:55Only if you are indifferent to all kinds of rubbish will you be able to respond rightly.

36:12Tell me, will you be able to run if your right hand is tied to a pole, Parameswari?

36:25Okay, let's do the opposite now.

36:27Now maybe you will be able to run.

36:29Let's tie your left hand to a pole.

36:31How fast are you running now?

36:36So morality is about tying your right hand to the pole.

36:41In morality everything that you do is right.

36:46So morality is about not tying the wrong hand to the pole but tying the right hand to the pole.

36:53Now tell me, how is the flight?

36:56How well, how smoothly and how high are you flying?

37:02Spirituality is about liberating yourself totally from the pole.

37:17The evil man has the wrong hand, the bad hand and the left hand has been conventionally called as the bad hand.

37:31You can't do any good deeds with the left hand.

37:38With the left hand you can't even shake hands.

37:44If kids start using their left hand, there are many mothers who would scold them.

37:48How are you eating using your left hand?

38:00So the bad man has his bad hand tied to the pole.

38:13The good man, the pious man has the right hand, the good hand tied to the pole.

38:26What does Ashtavakra mean when he says be indifferent?

38:29He means be totally free of the pole.

38:39Neither the right hand nor the left hand should be attached to the pole.

38:59Is practicing indifference and witnessing the same?

39:03Forget about indifference and witnessing, Parameshwari.

39:11You are the driver.

39:14What do words like indifference and witnessing mean to the driver?

39:21The driver should be attending to the master's call and in this attention lies indifference.

39:31And in this attention lies witnessing.

39:40If the beloved is near to you, would you listen to the beloved or would you try to be indifferent to the world?

39:48Please, what comes first?

39:51So you are the driver.

39:53Just listen to the master.

39:55Don't try practicing indifference to the crowd around the car.

39:59Or would you rather do that?

40:01The master is with you, sitting next to you.

40:05And you are saying I want to practice indifference to the world.

40:09Even if you want to practice indifference, who has become the center of your concentration?

40:15If you say I am trying to practice indifference to the world, who has become the center of your mind?

40:24The world.

40:26That is not dharma, Parameshwari.

40:37No.

40:43Follow the command.

40:45Do the right thing.

40:46There is a lot to be done.

40:49The car has to be driven.

40:51What do you mean by indifference?

40:53What do you mean by witnessing?

40:56Love is enough.

41:00When you love the truth, then you are obviously indifferent to the false.

41:06That is indifference.

41:08You cannot practice indifference.

41:10You can only love the truth.

41:16Indifference happens as a byproduct.

41:20You are not trying and practicing indifference.

41:24Indifference has just happened on its own.

41:28Why has indifference happened?

41:30Because you were attending exclusively to the master.

41:38And when you are attending exclusively to the master, how can anyone else come to your mind?

41:43That is indifference.

41:51The same applies to witnessing.

42:00A lot of things are there by the wayside.

42:07There are men, women, trees, vehicles, hoardings.

42:15And the driver is just driving the car.

42:20Do all the happenings on the road mean anything to the driver?

42:28No.

42:29They don't mean anything to him.

42:31All that which holds a meaning is the command of the master.

42:38All else is to be seen, responded to and ignored.

42:45There are 40 people carrying out a procession and they are raising slogans.

42:59The driver sees all that.

43:01Those people are on the road.

43:03Does that procession or those slogans mean anything to the driver?

43:07No.

43:08To him, that crowd is just an obstacle to be dealt with.

43:21He weaves his way around the crowd.

43:25That's all that the crowd means to him.

43:28This is witnessing.

43:29I don't have anything to do with you.

43:31I am a non-participant.

43:33Or would he stop the car and join the procession?

43:37Or would he stop the car and start beating up people for obstructing the road?

43:41No.

43:42He doesn't have anything to do with them.

43:44This is called witnessing.

43:46I am a non-participant because I am attending exclusively to my lord.

43:53And he has told me to speed up.

43:57And I am rushing.

43:59There is a lot of work to be done.

44:02The one who is obeying the master would seldom be found lazing around.

44:11He is a busy bee.

44:14Lord is a tough taskmaster.

44:18He doesn't leave you free.

44:20Look at the lives of those who devoted themselves.

44:25They were extremely busy people.

44:28Look at a Sant Fareed or Guru Nanak or Kabir Sahib.

44:34See how hard they worked through the span of their lives.

44:43Internally they were always free.

44:48But their hands, body, the entire system was always occupied.

44:54Look at the life of Jesus.

44:57Look at the life of Krishna.

45:02Look at the life of Prophet Muhammad.

45:04Do you find them just relaxing on a beach?

45:09By the way, none of them visited Goa or any such place.

45:19On foot.

45:23Guru Nanak Dev made very long journeys.

45:29One to the south, one to the east, one to deep in the west.

45:37And he was just travelling on foot.

45:42Ditto with Vardhaman Mahavir and Siddharth Gautam.

45:48They were extremely busy people.

45:52You wouldn't have been able to have them spare their time.

45:57The Lord, I said, is a tough taskmaster.

46:03So get this notion out of your head.

46:08That indifference means that now you have nothing to do in this world.

46:13Indifference to the world means that now you are an activist.

46:16Now you are a missionary.

46:22We said now you are a busy bee.

46:27You would work and work very hard.

46:29And if you are not working hard, then it means that you are not heeding the command.

46:56No part of this recording may be reproduced

46:59without Mooji Media Ltd.'s express consent.

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