Bruce Kinsey Part 2 - Faith Assembly Cult History - Episode 200 Branham Research Podcast - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts: https://william-branham.org/podcast  Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/branham   Chino's YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@chinodross  The transcript covers a discussion between John Collins and Chino Ross about various events and personalities connected to the Faith Assembly, specifically focusing on the experiences of Bruce Kenzie, a former prominent member. They explore the rise of Kenzie within the Faith Assembly, his eventual disillusionment, and his departure from the group. The conversation touches on the dangers of unchecked leadership within religious movements, highlighting the personal and doctrinal conflicts that arise when authority is concentrated in a single figure like Hobart Freeman. The speakers emphasize the importance of independent thought and the dangers of blind obedience in religious settings, particularly in groups that discourage questioning or external influences.  The dialogue also sheds light on the challenges faced by those who leave such groups, both emotionally and socially. Kenzie’s journey from being a highly regarded minister to leaving and facing ostracism is detailed, reflecting the broader issues of control and manipulation within cult-like religious movements. The discussion underscores the need for accountability and the courage to challenge harmful doctrines and practices within religious communities.  00:00 Introduction   01:01 Overview of Bruce Kenzie’s Role in Faith Assembly   05:11 Challenges and Conflicts Within the Faith Assembly   10:05 Kenzie’s Disillusionment and Departure   15:26 Theological Training and the Importance of Independent Thought   20:26 Personal Anecdotes on Theological Education   26:02 Dangers of Unchecked Authority and Legalism   32:31 Bruce Kenzie’s Personal Struggles and Losses   37:01 The Impact of Hobart Freeman’s Teachings on Followers   42:47 Freeman’s Final Years and Doctrinal Extremes   47:01 Reflections on Kenzie’s Life After Leaving the Faith Assembly   55:07 Closing Thoughts on Religious Control and Leadership ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00:00You

00:00:31Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham historical research

00:00:35podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham

00:00:40historical research at william-branham.org and with me I have my co-host,

00:00:45minister, and friend Cheno Ross, pastor and the voice of the understanding

00:00:51scripture and truth by Cheno D. Ross YouTube channel. Cheno, it's good to be

00:00:56back and continue our conversation on Bruce Kinsey, who I am just now learning

00:01:02about, but there's so much wrapped up into this and I know that you and I have

00:01:08been getting a lot of emails from former Faith Assembly members and they're gonna

00:01:12be very interested to hear the rest of this one. Yes they will, John, and we are

00:01:16gonna try to wrap it up here and this will be the the better of the two, I

00:01:21would say, because we have pictures, we have some real good audio from Dr.

00:01:25Freeman himself when he actually delivers a prophecy to and against Bruce who's

00:01:30actually sitting out there. I just shake my head at the lack of manner some

00:01:35public speakers have, but Bruce Kinsey was, as I said last time, he was second

00:01:42in command around there at Faith Assembly. He had had a very dramatic

00:01:45conversion experience. He had been elevated to ministry fairly quickly, so

00:01:52his exit from Faith Assembly ten years later in October of 1984 was the

00:02:00headline defection from Faith Assembly for sure, caused all kinds of

00:02:05problems. We talked last time the very fact that he had been elevated to second

00:02:11in command and by that I mean he was given the big Friday night meeting or

00:02:15which became a big meeting on Friday night just a year after his conversion

00:02:20and that was not healthy for Bruce. Paul says in 1st Timothy 3.6, not a novice

00:02:27less being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. You

00:02:31know, just puts you in a bad position when you're only a year into the walk

00:02:34and now you're in charge of the Friday night meeting and a year later he was in

00:02:40charge of a big meeting at Purdue University and he was also the one who

00:02:45was the head of Faith Ministries and Publications. That was the publishing

00:02:50tape duplicating arm of Dr. Freeman. All of his books and tapes went out through

00:02:55Faith Ministries and Publications and they had at one time three full-time

00:03:00employees but Bruce was the supervisor over that and Bruce also when Hobart was

00:03:06gone was the one who appointed who was going to fill the pulpit when Dr. Freeman

00:03:11wasn't there. So I mean he was pretty much, even though he wasn't one of the

00:03:15assistant pastors, he was pretty much second in command and he was married to

00:03:20Kathy Freeman, Dr. Freeman's middle daughter and they were you know a

00:03:25charismatic couple in Faith Assembly. I didn't know Bruce on a deep personal

00:03:32level at all but we did communicate with each other. I'm not really sure how Bruce

00:03:39found out about me. I mean I obviously knew him. I'm small-time, he's big-time. I

00:03:45knew him as one of the big ministers at Faith Assembly. He had written that book

00:03:50God Will Save Your Loved Ones and everybody had read that so I knew him

00:03:54from that. I'm not really sure how he found out about me or knew about me. I

00:04:01was always lurking on the perimeter of the camp of Faith Assembly. I think he

00:04:07he knew I was a critic and probably my guess is whenever he got fed up he knew

00:04:16Cheno would be an ally. He definitely was not going to have an ally anywhere in

00:04:21northern Indiana but you know I had heard his tapes and I felt sorry. I liked what

00:04:28Bruce said a lot of times but I felt sorry for him and I don't know all of Bruce's

00:04:35personal motivations for what he did. I can't vouch for Bruce's character and

00:04:40motives. Only his wife and family and closest friends would know that but the little bit

00:04:48that I heard I liked. I'm sure there are people that know things that I don't know

00:04:54so I don't want to cast Bruce Kenzie in the image of an angel where other people will say

00:05:01well I know this and I know that because you know I don't know all those things and I did not

00:05:07know Bruce on a personal level. Since these podcasts have begun I obviously have heard from

00:05:15just like you said people from all over the place and I've heard some good and some bad.

00:05:22The meeting I went to in Elkhart last month one of the people there told me a story that he heard

00:05:28from a co-worker at RJ Donnelly the printing company where Bruce worked and Jerry Burkett

00:05:34and other people. Well heck that's fourth hand to me so I'm not repeating that and someone else has

00:05:41told me a pretty troubling story but it's fourth or fifth hand and so you know I'm not going to

00:05:49repeat that. I'm sure you John you hear all kinds of things about people and you have to either

00:05:59to well you just have to have some wisdom and discernment to try to figure out now is there

00:06:03any element of truth to this or is someone really trying to smear someone more than they deserve to

00:06:11be smeared and it's a difficult task to try to read between the lines. If I can get to a first

00:06:18hand story where the person said I was there or he said this to me or I witnessed that I'm much

00:06:24more likely to repeat that than I am a third or fourth hand story. Yeah I get all kinds of crazy

00:06:31stuff man and one of the problems for me is I see the good in all people and I don't I don't

00:06:37immediately think critically or negatively of somebody so when somebody when I get an email

00:06:44and somebody is talking about another person and they lift them up on the highest pedestal possible

00:06:50my first inclination is to just suddenly run with it and I realize that you know I can't I can't do

00:06:56this I've got to put a little bit of critical thought but whenever I dig into whoever it is

00:07:02they've sent me I usually look to see not what they did but what people connected to them did

00:07:10in other words if it's a minister and he trained other ministers how did those ministers behave how

00:07:16did they act is there in today's world you have to first look are there sexual assault claims and

00:07:22you know that kind of thing and usually by the fruits of the people that they've trained you can

00:07:29at least get a level of skepticism it doesn't mean that they're a bad character but

00:07:33you know I've got on Hobart Freeman I've got all kinds of stuff people people saying that no you're

00:07:40trying to make this link to Branham ism and he's not doing he's not he condemned Branham

00:07:46well every single splinter group that Branham created they all eventually whenever they become

00:07:52the new central figure they're they're going to condemn Branham and say it's my revelation that

00:07:57guy doesn't have it that guy went astray that's what they all say so I have to take everything

00:08:02with a little grain of salt but you know the biggest thing is just critically think about

00:08:08everything don't assume that somebody's telling you the truth about whatever is the spiritual

00:08:14leader that they want to lift up on a pedestal just take a look at the pedestal yeah and you

00:08:20mentioned sexual assault the other thing that goes right up there with it that you have to

00:08:25investigate and be suspicious of is a financial gain it seems like those are the two really really

00:08:32big things and I think that was part of the problem of the top tier faith assembly ministers

00:08:41in a meeting of Bruce's in 1977 so he's only been a minister four years and we're talking about

00:08:53almost 50 years ago he announced his income that year was going to be $48,000

00:09:01and I'm you know I'm not a watchdog on what an appropriate income should be for anybody or

00:09:07or for any minister but do the math that may not sound like a lot of money today to somebody maybe

00:09:15it does sound like a lot to somebody today maybe it doesn't but you can pull your iPhone out and

00:09:21do a calculation of what that equals today and that's a really really large income and I don't

00:09:29begrudge the income as long as it's deserved and earned but we've got to remember this guy's brand

00:09:38new and he's been elevated pretty quickly and he's got a pretty big following and so you just have

00:09:46all of this money coming in so we get to the end of this our discussion today John I have to give

00:09:53Bruce a lot of credit for leaving the church because you're walking away from that Bruce

00:09:58ended up selling cars at a car lot in Syracuse, Indiana so you're giving up a lot of stuff that

00:10:04right there to me says something about a person because normally even if you just don't agree

00:10:11with the leader don't agree with the movement you're not kissing your money tree goodbye

00:10:17you know you're cutting down the money tree in your own backyard you know you're just gonna

00:10:24go along with it complain a little not be that happy but have a good income no one would give

00:10:29that up and Bruce ended up doing that but my problem goes back to what we've continued to

00:10:35talk about that Bruce even though I heard Bruce's message and I like some things Bruce said

00:10:41you know he felt he was a trained and qualified minister he had been to Hobart's quote-unquote

00:10:48charismatic school where Hobart on Saturdays had started teaching some theology New Testament Old

00:10:54Testament introductions some Hebrew some Greek you know things like that but they're getting all of

00:11:01their information from one source and for them they thought that was right or they thought that

00:11:07was good but that is never a healthy thing to do to get all of your information from one source

00:11:14even if the source was Moses or Paul it's still only one person and what I always say is the

00:11:21maximum that person can know is what they know they don't know a single thing beyond what they know

00:11:27the where I teach my people I think I know some stuff but I said wow the only stuff I know is what

00:11:34I know I don't know what John Collins knows I don't know what my neighbor knows my wife knows

00:11:38my kid I only know what I know person be a fool to follow one person and one person only as good as

00:11:46they might be that that just does it's not reasonable it's not logical to follow one

00:11:54person because you're limited with that person where they go off you're probably going to go

00:11:59off with them and and where they don't still you know you're going to max out at your understanding

00:12:07of scripture with whatever you've been taught unless you want to do something on your own

00:12:12but see they were kind of encouraged you know they were given a few textbooks to read but you

00:12:18know don't read anything else because you'll get deceived because they're liberals and they're

00:12:22modernist and as faith assembly went on you were even disallowed more you know don't read really

00:12:30anybody you know throw out everybody's tapes and the funny thing is when Bruce left

00:12:35when Bruce left because I have people telling me this he said when Bruce left we were told we had

00:12:41to throw away all of Bruce's material so that was material that he had learned there but I'm telling

00:12:48you whenever you got on the outside you were on the outside and faith assembly just used

00:12:55excommunication which is a biblical concept where a communicant who has committed some act of sin

00:13:03like in first corinthians chapter 5 is now removed from the parameters of the group but faith assembly

00:13:11used excommunication in a completely unbiblical way and they used it in a way just injections

00:13:19you know if you object then then you are out of here and so anyway back to Bruce. Bruce's problem

00:13:29I think early on was he didn't know enough to be teaching and neither did the other ministers

00:13:35and he didn't realize it at the time but you know you're just kind of plogging your way along

00:13:41trying to figure things out and you think you do you know John you're you think you do

00:13:48you're listening to Hobart Freeman he's got a doctor's degree he's sharing his knowledge with

00:13:52you you know I just look back on these guys because real formal study and education was discouraged

00:14:03and they didn't really have any other avenue or way to go I mean it'd be like

00:14:10you're on your back deck and your neighbor behind you tells you hey if you've got a legal problem

00:14:17you know I know as much as an attorney knows just ask me and I'll help you out or you got a

00:14:21financial problem your other neighbor said oh I know as much as an accountant knows but what I

00:14:27want to ask is did you pass the bar exam did you pass the cpa exam those are difficult exams

00:14:36and the very reason that we have an education standardized test is because we're trying to

00:14:43measure your level of knowledge anybody can say I'm as good as an attorney but have you

00:14:50passed the bar exam and that that's my that was my beef with them that's it goes back to my

00:14:56statement they couldn't find their way out of a wet theological bag right everything goes back to

00:15:02that and I'm sorry but just it does if you if you're in a profession it should mean two things

00:15:10number one you're getting paid to do it so you're a professional and and number two you can pass the

00:15:17professional exams that go with that you know that's how you become a professional so let me

00:15:25just you're gonna like this John let me just give you a story if I can a personal story and I'm

00:15:30going to try to tell it in a way that that does not come across as boasting because nobody wants

00:15:36to hear anybody brag or boast about anything we have our own stuff in our own lives we can brag

00:15:41about but when I was a young minister and I've shared part of this but let me tell you the funny

00:15:47part of the story when I was a young minister all I knew is what Hobart said but because I was a

00:15:53pastor of my own church it became obvious to me early that he's leaving a lot of loopholes there's

00:16:01a lot of doors that need to be closed that aren't closed or that need to be open that are closed

00:16:06so you know I just began doing my own study and I told you the story about CBD Christian book

00:16:12distributors when I finally went to that place I had ordered thousands of books from them and I

00:16:18didn't know I was in doing anything unusual I didn't know that was that's just what ministers

00:16:23do you need to be prepared to teach and I was treated like Elvis raised from the dead when I

00:16:29showed up there they couldn't believe they saw me in the flesh because you're the guy who's been

00:16:35buying all these books so I was training myself but then here's the problem you have how do you

00:16:44gauge yourself by yourself you know how do you it's it's impossible to do you're foolish you're

00:16:51a fool if you try to judge yourself by yourself and I was teaching people in my church but you

00:16:58know they're my students I'm the teacher so how can I judge myself you really have to be judged

00:17:04by your peers or by your superiors and so I lived in New England I was pastoring a church and I

00:17:11decided you know I've got to find a good conservative evangelical seminary to attend

00:17:16which is is what I did and that's a whole nother story but here's the point of that I wanted to

00:17:20tell you so to get in seminary you've got to have an undergraduate degree which I had from a secular

00:17:27university that wasn't a problem but I couldn't afford I was a poor guy remember I made 20 grand

00:17:32a year I didn't make 47,000 a year I was poor I couldn't afford to go to seminary but they

00:17:39offered a scholarship for an incoming student one incoming student if you would submit a paper

00:17:47and then you know they judge the paper and award a winner from the pool of paper submitted well

00:17:53most people who go to seminary have already been to Bible college they already have an undergraduate

00:17:58degree from Bible college well I didn't so I don't have any papers you're supposed to bring a paper

00:18:03that you use back in undergraduate days I don't have a paper so I sat down and wrote one

00:18:12and mailed it off here's my 40 page paper well what do you know I got a letter in the mail a

00:18:18few months later I won the scholarship to get in seminary so I thought great now I don't have to

00:18:24pay so now I can go well on opening morning for all incoming students you're going to meet in a

00:18:33big auditorium and you're going to take an exam and what the seminary is after is just trying to

00:18:39gauge the level of knowledge that this incoming class has to know where to direct you what courses

00:18:49what the curriculum should be like who your student advisor or your professor advisor should

00:18:55be and things like that so we go into this auditorium I don't know there's the whole incoming

00:19:01class is there we're given a test and it's a standardized test covered old testament

00:19:08cover new testament covered theology and covered church history and it's multiple choice

00:19:17they can't take time to do essays and things like that it's just a multiple choice exam

00:19:22and I don't know we were given an hour or two to take the test so you know how multiple choice

00:19:29exams go you either just decide I'm going to check c you know you're a statistic major I'm

00:19:35going to do c on every single one and the odds are I'm going to get x percentage right the better

00:19:41way to go is if you know the answers it's pretty easy and pretty fast test so I finished the test

00:19:48I turned my paper in and I walked I was headed out back to my dorm room got out in the breezeway

00:19:56and two of the administrators supervisors overseers who were watching the exam one of which

00:20:04ended up Dr. John Jefferson Davis becoming my advisor but to advise two of them came out in

00:20:10the hallway and they said uh hey hey young man yeah and I'm like 26 years old I'm 20 I'm a 26

00:20:17year old kid they said hey young man um are you okay and I said yeah I'm fine and they said well

00:20:25we we thought you got that you're sick are you sick and I said no I'm not sick I feel

00:20:32great why are you why are you asking me that and they said well we saw you turned your paper in

00:20:37and you didn't get finished we thought you were sick and you're headed back to your room or headed

00:20:40to the restroom and I said no I feel fine I got finished and they said well that's not possible

00:20:48you you turned it in in 15 minutes that's a two-hour exam that's not possible and I said

00:20:55well I did finish it but I guess you'll find out if that's possible whenever you go grade it

00:21:02so they did you know and I did really well and that's all I'll say I did really well

00:21:07so my point in all this John is we have to as ministers we have to be trained and these

00:21:13ministers down there at faith assembly just weren't and so it just it just produced all

00:21:20kinds of problems so Bruce is beginning to see some things in faith assembly some things that

00:21:27are beginning to happen some things that are being taught that he is you know not in favor of

00:21:34one of the things Hobart often did is just tell his personal likes and dislikes about

00:21:40cars or homes or words choice of words and sentences he loves to talk about food and so

00:21:47he talked about peanut butter and he was a depression baby depression era child and he

00:21:55made fun of anybody that would eat any of that peter pan or jif that's full of sugar and calories

00:22:01and fats and you don't know peanut butter unless you've eaten real peanut butter well guess what

00:22:06everybody does in faith assembly they go to their pantry and throw jif and peter pan out

00:22:12because if it's not good enough for Hobart it's not good enough for me well guess what Bruce as I

00:22:18said last time John Bruce he was a ex-marine sergeant in the Marine Corps he had some worldly

00:22:26wisdom he had some street sense to him and he had some independence to him so one time he stood up

00:22:33in a message and this was probably tongue-in-cheek but I think this was part of Bruce's personality

00:22:38and Bruce said look I just want to tell all of you people that I don't agree with everything my

00:22:43father-in-law says this was early on this wasn't when times got rough between the two and he said

00:22:49for instance I like modern tasting peanut butter you know and everybody laughed over that but he

00:22:56was literally telling the truth that he was going to continue to eat that kind of peanut butter

00:23:03even though everybody else was going home and throwing their stuff out

00:23:09I mean they would literally follow Dr. Freeman like that yeah and I think it's probably symptomatic

00:23:15of what of a cult of personality you know one of the real problems in this group and you use the

00:23:21term wet theological bag and they found that offensive so I'm going to use the term dry

00:23:26theological bag and hope but no I've got so I grew up in this type of religion you know I was

00:23:33on the inside of it I know how it works whenever somebody wants to be a preacher they they say they

00:23:40feel the calling of God and they go before the leader the pastor the pastor says hey this guy's

00:23:45going to be a preacher welcome him and then suddenly he's a preacher that's how it works

00:23:50you you get instant instant preachership and the one when you're in a cult it's entirely

00:23:56different than a normal church you have this hierarchy of control so when one of the leaders

00:24:02in the hierarchy of control appoints another leader the people give instant credibility to

00:24:09the person that they've appointed and so instantly they're a favored preacher it's not just they're

00:24:14a preacher they're a favored preacher instantly and I use the example I'm a mechanic I grew up

00:24:21working on cars and I've taken you know the engine completely down to nuts and bolts and put it back

00:24:26together I still don't consider myself a mechanic but I I can turn a wrench I've taught my son to

00:24:34change his brakes and to his friends my son is a mechanic because he changed his brakes can he

00:24:42you know if the engine if he's got to change the head on head gasket on an engine can he do it

00:24:47probably not but to his friends he's a mechanic and to him because he's done this small thing

00:24:54he feels he feels like he you know he's on the pathway to be a mechanic well that's the way it

00:25:00works in these churches man whenever you get that appointed you suddenly suddenly you become this

00:25:06favored preacher and the irony is that for me on the flip side now that I'm out of this

00:25:13anytime that I mention a bible passage even just the names of one of the books you'll look to the

00:25:20comment feeds on my videos or on you know wherever it is sometimes in my writings and people will say

00:25:27that I'm a preacher and I'm preaching the wrong thing I'm not a preacher man I don't need I don't

00:25:32have a calling to be a preacher I don't want to be a preacher and people have actually on the flip

00:25:38side people who've escaped this thing and haven't yet deprogrammed they'll hear me say the name of

00:25:45a book that's in the bible and they say wow that's really good stuff john you ought to be a preacher

00:25:50well they don't understand I would have to go to seminary to be trained I'd have to understand the

00:25:54doctrines it's more than just hey I want to do this thing and suddenly I praise God I'm a preacher

00:26:00that's not how it works you know when you talk when you describe the theological bag I think the

00:26:07issue that the men were having is they don't realize that the bag is much bigger whenever you

00:26:15get an instant gratification as an instant end to becoming a preacher you got this really small bag

00:26:23because you don't know theology you know you know exactly what the leader has been saying and you've

00:26:28heard the leader say and then you start repeating what the leader says so in essence rather than

00:26:35having a theological bag you've got a broken record that's just saying the same thing over

00:26:39and over and over again yeah john you're exactly right yeah the the illustration with your son and

00:26:46changing brakes you know that's a perfect example where people we all often say they know just

00:26:52enough to be dangerous and that's exactly but you know they don't realize what they don't know

00:26:59and that's the problem if you aren't professionally trained you don't realize what you don't know

00:27:05the little bit that you do know which they learned from Dr. Freeman at that time to them seem to be

00:27:12so vast and seem to be consistent and it was not and can seem to be thorough and it was not

00:27:21and there's no way you can convince a person of that until you're on the other side of a

00:27:27theological education and then you look back and you realize wow I didn't know nearly as much as

00:27:34I thought that I knew and I think that's the hallmark of education and any educated person

00:27:41the more education you get the less the you see let me rephrase that the more education you get

00:27:52the more you realize how little you know because if you just think there are four things to know

00:28:00in the world and you know three of them you're feeling pretty good but when there's an almost

00:28:05infinite number of things to know and you start knowing them and then you find out wow this is

00:28:11almost infinite what there is to know you know I feel like a pauper when it comes to my knowledge

00:28:16of stuff I just feel like a babe there's no way those guys could have understood it there's no

00:28:22way I understood it when I was 21 years old I was getting close to understanding it I knew enough to

00:28:29know hey I need to be formally trained or I need to be able to check and gauge the knowledge

00:28:37that I think that I have and that's what put me on that path and you know I'm still on that

00:28:43path today but one of the guys that has been corresponding with me gave me this quote he said

00:28:49I and my friends used to have a saying about everyone outside of previous ministry or real

00:28:57doctrinal education at faith assembly they were just riding on the back of Hobart's jacket you

00:29:05know I wasn't the only one that thought that that was someone who was a member of the church he said

00:29:10me and my friends would sit around talking after we heard Hobart then would compare that with one

00:29:15of the fill-in ministers and I mean this isn't my quotation this came from someone else who was a

00:29:21long time member of faith assembly he said you know if they did not have previous ministry or

00:29:27doctrinal education in their background they're just riding on Hef's coattails and I think that's

00:29:33exactly what was going on so anyway let's work our way along here to what caused Bruce to leave

00:29:40you know I'm already seeing in Bruce a certain level of independence which I think is really

00:29:47really healthy Bruce and Kathy had been childless during the whole decade of the 70s and they

00:29:54explained that on the basis of Kathy being a Christian young woman having married Bruce a

00:30:01heathen man and it was God's chastisement on their life well they finally had their first son born on

00:30:08February the 11th Brent 1980 and he died 36 hours later the coroner said it was respiratory problems

00:30:19that caused Brent's death he just lived for 36 hours I'm sure that was heartbreaking that was

00:30:25their first child Kathy's first Bruce's first you've waited 10 years for the birth of this son

00:30:33and he's born on February the 11th and and he died the next day

00:30:39a lawsuit had been filed against faith assembly and Bruce was one of the defendants in it and

00:30:45trial was set for the summer of 1985 because people ended up dying and leaving the lawsuit

00:30:52never went through but I think that was weighing heavily on Bruce's mind and I think at the end of

00:31:00the day the legalisms became just too many and too extreme Hobart had all of these pet ideas and pet

00:31:11doctrines some of them were new some of them went back a while he did not believe that a woman could

00:31:18wear pants he was fairly consistent on that as early as his tapes on biblical roles of husband

00:31:25and wife that was a part one part two which were requirement listening for membership at faith

00:31:33faith assembly you needed to listen to biblical roles of husband and wife part one and part two

00:31:38and he teaches against women wearing any kind of pants there well Kathy and Bruce love to go

00:31:45skiing and we've got a picture here Bruce of them or John of them on the ski slopes out in Colorado

00:31:54they love to go out there they like to ski well I think it's pretty hard to ski in a dress

00:32:00and you know I also I remember over the years Dr. Freeman making poking fun at

00:32:08how ridiculous anybody but especially a woman would look in a ski suit going down a ski slope

00:32:15he said they look like a bunny rabbit all furred up going down the slope and I have thought about

00:32:20that afterwards that you're talking about your own daughter I don't know that that's

00:32:27a kind and loving thing to do you know I think not only are you overstepping your boundaries as

00:32:33the pastor but that's your daughter that's your adult daughter if you have a problem with her

00:32:39doing something go to her in private don't say something from the pulpit that's embarrassing

00:32:45to her and that everyone knows you're referring to anybody who's going to be skiing well he went

00:32:52further than that no sodomite shoes no prostitute purses bomber jackets white ducked overall

00:32:59plaid flannel shirts no tvs no doctors no dentist I mean the list was just becoming unbearable

00:33:09and and Bruce was beginning to have more and more problems with that and so Bruce and I did

00:33:16exchange some letters and he said there was a yelling match between him and Dr. Freeman

00:33:22and he told Dr. Freeman you need to go through deliverance for some of your teachings which did

00:33:30not go over very well because Hobart had all of these later series he taught on deeper discernment

00:33:38and deliverance you know it wasn't enough just to cast the demon out let's go back to your childhood

00:33:44and they were trying to find out what people were having to do believe it or not as crazy as this

00:33:50sounds is he had become so opposed to medical science rather than being so in favor of God

00:33:57healing his people most of his message was a negative message he was so angry with the pollution

00:34:04of drugs and the mutilation of surgery and the medical deities in the United States and most of

00:34:10his emphasis was against them and against that and because he had pretty much thrashed everything out

00:34:19already you're always searching for a new angle how can we can keep this ministry and this message

00:34:25going so in deeper deliverance and discernment it came down to well what drugs did your parents

00:34:35give you when you were four years old we had people contacting their elderly parents to find

00:34:42out the names of drugs they were given as young children because the names of drugs represented

00:34:50demonic spirits that possibly gained entrance into your life when you were four five ten years old

00:34:59and you know I was hearing this stuff and I was you know that's why I was the outside critic

00:35:05circling the camp talking to Dr. Freeman you know this is insanity gone to seed here you know

00:35:12somebody needs to stop the madness where is this ever going to stop you know it stopped thankfully

00:35:17with his death and the breakup of the church and you know that doesn't happen John with every cult

00:35:22some cults the leader dies and everything just continues to go right along but thankfully you

00:35:29know this was able to come to an end because the the damage being done to people the long

00:35:36term effects were just something really really bad and so Bruce said well the final thing for him

00:35:45was in a message that Hobart taught entitled comfort for troubled times it's only taught

00:35:53two months before Hobart's death was taught on October the 17th in 1984

00:36:00they were going through terrific struggles in that church because of the media and because of

00:36:06the district attorney and law enforcement and Hobart was preaching a two-part series from

00:36:14Romans chapter 8 and let me read you this one quotation starting at the 35 minute and 13 second

00:36:24mark now God is concerned about his creation out there friends and I believe overcomers are going

00:36:33to get concerned more and more about it too and not cause them any suffering the Bible shows God

00:36:41is concerned and I believe emphasis his and I'm going to state my belief but we don't have laws

00:36:49and rules but they do have laws and rules when he states his belief that's what became the law

00:36:54and the rule I'm going to state my belief but we don't have laws and rules that overcomers

00:36:59will get to the place where they will not want to kill anything because you don't need to now I'm

00:37:07not talking about going fishing for fish to eat you see you'll have to put it all together

00:37:14but I don't believe overcomers are going to have anything to do with weapons of death

00:37:20whether guns or bows and arrows or whatever now the time's too short for you to debate that

00:37:29you better just go pray about it

00:37:33wow Bruce was a hunter as were a lot of other people in the church and wow John

00:37:43that is um that is a very troubling that is a very troubling statement in in so many different

00:37:51ways so I mean you see he's clearly talking out of both sides of his mouth he didn't outlaw fishing

00:38:00but that's killing a fish if you do right he said now I'm not talking about fishing

00:38:05going fishing for fish to eat what about going deer hunting to kill a deer to eat

00:38:12and then he says we don't you know we don't have rules here but I'm going to state my view

00:38:18well I'm telling you 100 when Hobart stated his view that became the rule

00:38:25one of the ministers in the meeting that I went to last month who was a complete devoted follower

00:38:32of Dr. Freemans who was a hunter told me himself when Hobart came out on October 17, 1984 and

00:38:40preached this message guess what this minister did did he agree with Hobart Freeman's statement

00:38:48no but guess what he did he submitted to it you know and I would say that's exactly what

00:38:55you don't want to do when a cult leader comes out with some new view and you are going to show your

00:39:02loving submission to your pastor by submitting to it even when you don't agree with it I mean

00:39:08that's not a biblical teaching at all to put on your church hey I'm outlawing hunting and this is

00:39:15what it was called this is when Hobart outlawed hunting in the church you're no longer allowed

00:39:19to hunt and a minister who was there said he was going to lovingly obey it and put his weapons of

00:39:27destruction aside to show submission or is that not submitted body and shepherdship that's the

00:39:36very thing that a cult leader wants you to do they want you to submit to them and that's the

00:39:41very time you stand up and say absolutely not my wife has told me she won't let she won't go to

00:39:48certain churches with me she said I'm afraid to go to church with you because if you hear

00:39:53some guy making some crazy statement she said I'm afraid you'll stand up and say no

00:40:01I wouldn't because you know that's really not polite to do but I don't know

00:40:05depends on how bad it is depends on how duped the people are I just feel sorry for people John

00:40:12where these ministers stand up and and just spout out all of this nonsense

00:40:20and it's just allowed to go unchallenged and that's the problem if you don't I mean silence

00:40:27is acceptance as far as I'm concerned in situations like this it's just a troubling statement he said

00:40:33the time's too short for you to debate it Hobart had very thin skin you know he could not handle

00:40:38people coming up there and debating something with him he had very thin skin if you're going

00:40:43to be a minister you got to have thick skin because you're going to have people disagreeing

00:40:46with you and wanting to express it and you got to be able to handle that and if in skin

00:40:52you got to go find another job have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started

00:40:58or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign charismatic

00:41:04and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation you can learn this and more on William

00:41:10Branham historical research's website william-branham.org on the books page of the website

00:41:17you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon

00:41:24and others with links to the paper audio and digital versions of each book you can also find

00:41:30resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements if you

00:41:36want to contribute to the cause you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at

00:41:41the top and as always be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that

00:41:47you're listening to or watching on behalf of William Branham Historical Research we want to

00:41:52thank you for your support I was talking with a friend of mine years ago we were talking about

00:41:57the Branham cult and you probably are aware but Branham made some claims that like he had a magical

00:42:04sword I mean there was some really stupid stuff and my buddy and I were talking one day and we

00:42:09said you know if he was behind the pulpit and he said me and the boys were drinking a few beers

00:42:14one night and this happened it really wouldn't have been that bad because it has context it has

00:42:21the context that the people get the choice of whether or not they have to believe the ridiculous

00:42:27thing but I've been looking at Hobart Freeman and the similarities between the two and

00:42:33Hobart didn't have I mean he had some but he didn't have as fantastic of claims as William

00:42:39Branham did but he also used the point he used the pulpit for his opinion in the way that Branham did

00:42:47Branham would preach his opinion and people would take it as doctrine and can you blame

00:42:53it all on Hobart Freeman I don't think so part of it comes to the group think all of the people

00:42:59sitting there have been manipulated probably by Hobart to take everything that he said as though

00:43:06it were literal doctrine and so when he voices his opinion his opinion becomes a new rule but

00:43:13the funny part of that is it's circular because when Hobart sees that the people are doing this

00:43:18well now he realizes that he has that control over them so he brings a new opinion and then

00:43:25he emphasizes the old one as though it was a past rule and everybody who's not heeding to the past

00:43:32rule the rule in the past they're all sinners and so it's the cycle that it really takes both sides

00:43:38of it it takes a cult leader who's just slightly mentally unstable and it takes a group of people

00:43:44who have entered group think to lift the leader up and keep him in authoritarian control you're

00:43:51always exactly right I don't even know why you need me on here you're you're exactly right but

00:43:57you are more generous than I am I'm probably meaner than you are um but I try to smile when

00:44:04I'm being mean so it doesn't come across too badly and oh yes everything you just said is

00:44:11totally true I know that after the fact wanted to they tried to say John was well Hobart never

00:44:20taught that the people misunderstood my problem with that interpretation was it goes back to your

00:44:28circular thing Hobart did understand he was a very intelligent person and I think cult leaders

00:44:37they enjoy being in control I mean it just is something about it it gives them this high

00:44:45to feel this power that they have and so he would say things in a non this is not a doctrine in a

00:44:51non-doctrine way knowing full well that just his opinion carried tremendous weight and I don't

00:45:01either he is either you have to say he was totally unaware that people got rid of their peanut butter

00:45:07Jeff and Peter Pan or he was aware and he kind of thought yeah that's pretty cool you know look at

00:45:13the power I have I don't live my life that way I think that's gross I think that's inappropriate

00:45:20I think it's gross and I think it's nasty for a public figure to stand up and give private opinion

00:45:27and look we're talking about the cult of personality if you went to your local standard

00:45:34first Baptist first Methodist first Pentecostal church and some pastor says he does such and such

00:45:40those people out there couldn't care less what he does they're going to do what they want to do

00:45:44you know it depends on the dynamics of the group because I've been to a lot of churches and the

00:45:49pastor will say that he likes to drive a yellow car nobody even cares nobody goes and buys a yellow

00:45:55car if you're in this context and you know you're in this context as a member and as the leader

00:46:03that we that we are a one of a kind here I am the messenger who has the end time message of faith

00:46:10and this is the group right here that's when it becomes dangerous to even say anything about a

00:46:18personal opinion I think me because I'm a nobody I can stand in a pulpit and say I have a personal

00:46:24opinion and people just laugh at it like well how stupid can you be to have that kind of opinion

00:46:31you know if it's just a personal opinion that's the way you want people to respond

00:46:36because you want them to have their own opinion I'm not talking about a doctrine in the bible

00:46:40I'm talking about like no hunting that's nowhere in the bible they kill things from cover to cover

00:46:46in the bible I'm talking about a private opinion if I stand up and say well this is my opinion I

00:46:52hope someone does think well you're nuts you haven't you don't you're not very smart if that's

00:46:57your opinion because it tells me that they have their own mind and they're not afraid to use their

00:47:05own mind and Hobart just got to the place where when you when you hear the things that he said

00:47:14I mean it he was he was um he was nuttier than an outhouse at a peanut convention with some of

00:47:21these things that he came up with like where are you coming with coming up with what kind of shoes

00:47:26and what kind of purses and what kind of pants and what kind of hats and jackets and he wouldn't let

00:47:32people he wouldn't let men use the word excited he said that's a feminine term or I mean he just

00:47:37picked his way through all of this and once he said it then it puts the people in such fear

00:47:44you know it put them in such bondage and then they would act a man would accidentally

00:47:49use the word excited say oh well I'm sorry I shouldn't have said that because I'm a man

00:47:54I mean you can't go through your life like that there are enough things in the bible to keep all

00:48:00what you said there's enough things in the bible to keep us busy obeying I mean we don't obey the

00:48:05bible perfectly that but that should be what we try to obey perfectly is God's word these opinions

00:48:12of men they're just like the chaff from the wind just let them blow away ignore them and you can

00:48:18stop these cults if you have a group of people who will man up and not let the leader get away with

00:48:25it right I mean that's what that's what my whole thrust I think in these podcasts have been that

00:48:30and I hope we're helping people in the future John we can't go undo the past but we're trying

00:48:36to give people the courage that's what will stop these cults you have to have people in that group

00:48:42who will man up and I mean who will march up to the podium and say this stops right now you know

00:48:51something's gone kind of viral on video that comes to mind of of a minister we have all of these

00:48:57sexual assault cases and it's not just the big ministers it's the little 200 member churches as

00:49:03well there is an a fabulous one online where the pastor has gone up before his church I don't know

00:49:10if you've seen this one but it's just happened recently and he is admitting to the church an

00:49:16extramarital affair 20 years ago he's saying it's happened 20 years ago you know I want to confess

00:49:25my sin it was an extramarital affair I'm sorry and you know we just know the American church is so

00:49:34and it's not just the American church it's American culture you know Bill Clinton

00:49:39anybody can do anything and if you just kind of say I'm sorry everybody in America is pretty

00:49:44forgiving they'll forgive and forget and let you go on and I think ministers have

00:49:50realized how true this is all I've got to do is just say I'm sorry and there won't be any

00:49:56repercussions from this well guess what during that live admission of an affair the woman and

00:50:04her husband were there they just took off they marched right up there to the podium they took

00:50:11over the podium and that woman said it was not an extramarital affair I was a 16 year old teenager

00:50:19that you raped on your office floor that's what actually happened well I'm thinking

00:50:27thank God and her husband was with her thank God for people for victims these are the victims of

00:50:34these places for victims who will say no we're not going to let you get away with this kind of apology

00:50:42because you've skewed the story this story is not accurate I'm the victim and I'm going to tell the

00:50:47story exactly the way that it happened and had my voice had I been able to do anything John back

00:50:55in the days and I couldn't I was a nobody I was a fringe person on the outside faith assembly

00:51:01but these other ministers could have affected some kind of change but even Bruce as much as

00:51:08Bruce wanted to do something Bruce is like a lone ranger that's why he's reaching out to me you know

00:51:13he doesn't have anybody who's going to be an ally there had other ministers been been willing to

00:51:19listen and it wasn't difficult we just read the quote Hobart's outlawing hunting are you kidding

00:51:26me are you kidding me he he recruited a group of fishermen who killed fish by the hundreds and sold

00:51:34them in the marketplace are you kidding me he just outlawed hunting and you're going to let him get

00:51:42away with that and they did everybody just gave him a pass on everything and then adopted that

00:51:48into their own life well Bruce wasn't going to do it so the the no hunting thing he said was a huge

00:51:56problem to him but then what I'd like for us if we can do John if you can play the clip that I have

00:52:04given you from a message in his series that Hobart was doing called exhortations from exodus he did

00:52:13a message entitled believers before the burning bush and if you could just play that clip for us

00:52:22and the media and the world and institutional religion is attempting to destroy this bush

00:52:30called faith assembly and they will fail as they have failed all through history amen amen amen

00:52:41and that's thus saith the lord amen

00:52:46hallelujah almost makes you want to shout

00:52:58now not everyone was rejoicing

00:53:03you might be surprised why but really you shouldn't be should you

00:53:11god help those

00:53:12who are trusting in themselves in man and not the word of the lord

00:53:20god help them god help them god may their faith fail not

00:53:26if they have any true faith may it not fail

00:53:32is my prayer in jesus name

00:53:34amen

00:53:38sad but true the end is so near i'm going to speak so plain that you'll know i'm talking to you when

00:53:45i'm talking to you remember there are only 300 in gideon's army you better do all you can to

00:53:52make sure you're one of the 300 i'm confessing i'm one but the 300 will be housewife over here

00:53:59you never hear from she spends a lot of time and intercession in her closet you can't figure out

00:54:05the ways and wisdom of god he tries to warn you through this preacher if you won't heed

00:54:12because of pride of whatever reason thus saith the lord i will remove thy lampstand

00:54:21from its place and pass thee by and choose another to stand in your stead

00:54:30and you shall say what has happened why am i passed by and the lord does say

00:54:38because you have not had an eye for my word and for my truth you have been bound by your

00:54:48gall of bitterness and bond of iniquity your pride and i shall pass you by except you repent

00:54:59and heed this word of the lord through my servant saith the lord amen amen so the background to this

00:55:08is he's trying to compare faith assembly to the israelites in egypt and all the persecution they

00:55:15were experiencing at the hands of the egyptians so faith assembly is experiencing their persecution

00:55:22at the hands of the media and the local authorities and he's saying there we are just like the bush

00:55:31and as they attempted to destroy israel so they are trying to destroy this bush called faith

00:55:38assembly and the bush by the way wasn't israel the bush was actually god almighty in the desert

00:55:44in exodus 3 so the analogy even breaks down there

00:55:50but after all this praise and rejoicing over hobart saying we're going to stand strong god's

00:55:57going to deliver us thus saith the lord then he got real quiet and you heard him say well not

00:56:03everyone is rejoicing and guess who someone sitting back right with family members

00:56:11who was not rejoicing was bruce kenzie so bruce has already had words with his father-in-law

00:56:17he's already gone through this no hunting the no hunting in october 17th was a previous was

00:56:22a message prior to this believers before the burning bush

00:56:28and i mean john when i read a um when i hear that quote and i've got it written down i have it

00:56:36typed out myself from 40 something years ago it's just um i mean it breaks my heart

00:56:45and it's so troubling that a minister has no more he has no more tact he has no more professionalism

00:56:57than to stand in a in a public pulpit and prophesy to one of the members i mean who in

00:57:04the world do you think you are you might think you're elijah but you're not you might think

00:57:09you're paul but you're not you might think you're moses but you're not you're just hobart you're

00:57:13just chino you're just bruce you're a nobody i mean we're nobodies compared to because they all

00:57:20want to say well in the bible they did well you're not in the bible friend you're not moses so don't

00:57:25give me a paul or moses example you're so far from them and i am so far from them and so he wants to

00:57:33prophesy to his own son-in-law that's not what men do john men go behind closed doors

00:57:44face to face man to man i've often accused hobart and people have not like this when i've done it

00:57:50but i've often accused hobart of being a coward i believe he was a weakling and i believe he was a

00:57:57coward but as long as you own a bully pulpit you can get away with anything if you had to sit

00:58:03down with a group of men if you had a board of elders around you if you had four seminary

00:58:09professors experts in their field so we're gonna tolerate anything like that absolutely not but as

00:58:16long as he's got a bully pulpit he can force his way onto the people and he can force his way into

00:58:22their lives so he is telling bruce thus saith the lord i'm going to remove your lamp stand and you're

00:58:28going to say what's happened why am i passed by and the lord doth say because you have not had an

00:58:36eye for my word and for my truth what do you think is going through bruce's mind as he's hearing this

00:58:42lie you have been bound by your gall and bitterness and bond of iniquity your pride and i shall pass

00:58:51you by except you repent and heed this word of the lord through my servant saith the lord

00:59:01wow i mean that was it for bruce and bruce said you know once my father doesn't even have the

00:59:08um ability the manhood to let's keep all this between us let's work this out you're going to

00:59:16prophesy me right out of here you know i would have left too but but i would have left kicking

00:59:21and screaming you would have had to drag me out of there because i would have made a i would have

00:59:25made a scene because it's wrong it's just wrong to let someone get away with this and i just feel

00:59:32for bruce in his own mind he had been a minister he had been second in command he had had all these

00:59:40great experiences at this church and now you're basically being driven out and you're being driven

00:59:49out because you object to personal legalisms that your father-in-law has introduced into the church

01:00:00not not over some big doctrines there are doctrinal things that i had huge problems with

01:00:05over hobart freeman but the doctrinal things aside they were not allowed to wear nike tennis

01:00:12shoes women could not have what they call prostitute purses it's a purse that had a strap

01:00:17that went too long that when you walked it shook and then maybe your rear end shakes with your

01:00:23purse and so you kind of look like a prostitute you know so no sodomite shoes i mean it was we

01:00:31laugh about it i laughed about it then we laugh about it now but it was no laughing matter for

01:00:35those poor people you know as soon as you hear sodomite shoe you go what in the heck is that

01:00:40i didn't think i was a homosexual maybe i am but i didn't think i was you look down to what kind of

01:00:45shoe am i wearing what kind of purse do i have hobart had picked all that crazy stuff up in time

01:00:51magazine and readers digest and newsweek where a certain group in new orleans was wearing a certain

01:00:56kind of shoe and so it became identified with the homosexual population there so what i mean who is

01:01:05the ceo of crest toothpaste you know where you're maybe he's a homosexual so can i not buy crest

01:01:11toothpaste anymore you know you would never be able to put an end to any of this legalism

01:01:18if we're trying to find out well who identified with it or who is the major stockholder in the

01:01:22company that produces this product i mean you just can't go through your life that that way

01:01:28and i've never been willing to and bruce wasn't willing to hey you're gonna like this john i got

01:01:33him i got a message from somebody this week they haven't been willing to talk with me yet because

01:01:39they're still praying about it because they don't know how bad of a person i really am they're trying

01:01:45to determine that i think but i got a message from him and he said look he said the only way i would

01:01:51have known you and this came about because of your podcast john is because your name popped up

01:01:59a friend of a friend you know that's how facebook works and a lot of these people who are now friends

01:02:06of mine are ex-faith assembly people and so he is a friend with them and so you look on your facebook

01:02:13feed and it says hey you have a mutual friend you want to become a friend of this person and he said

01:02:17the person's name was cheno ross and he said when i looked at that he said i had forgotten

01:02:24but he said i remember way back in the 80s listening to a tape by a guy with the name cheno

01:02:32and he said i would never have remembered except the name is so unusual when i saw your name i

01:02:39thought is this the same person and he said the tape on the tape whoever that person was named

01:02:48cheno in the mid 1980s was exposing how did he say it i could find his it was exposing the follies

01:02:56of faith assembly and you had the whole audience laughing at what you were saying and he said in

01:03:04the tape was real troubling to me at the time and then he said was that you and i said i'm afraid

01:03:11that was probably me yes because i don't know anybody else that it could have been

01:03:17and um so we've had some conversation and i hope he will at least be willing to talk to me i said

01:03:22i'm happy to talk with you and you can cut the conversation as short as you want to he said well

01:03:28he said i'm gonna he didn't know about the podcast he said i'm gonna listen to some of

01:03:32these podcasts and i'm gonna pray about it and i'll then i'll determine whether or not i'm gonna

01:03:37be willing to talk with you but no my dear friend bruce he left the church kathy continued to attend

01:03:45the services so you know it's deja vu way back to when she married bruce bruce was unsaved kathy

01:03:52went to the church bruce had a dramatic conversion experience becomes one of the lead ministers

01:03:58they have a wonderful time together now bruce has left the church he doesn't attend anymore

01:04:04kathy still goes to the church two months later hobart freeman is dead

01:04:10you know and i i have one and bruce went on to sell used cars he had a car lot in syracuse indiana

01:04:19and um one regret i do have i guess we all have regrets in our life and i have a regret

01:04:29a serious regret that i can't undo and that's that i didn't stay in touch with bruce

01:04:35and i don't know why i don't have a good reason i just have excuses but you know i was a young

01:04:41minister in my late 20s i had small children i was a pastor of a church life was busy um and

01:04:51so i just didn't and i don't have any other reason why but i do have a regret that i really wished i

01:04:58would have stayed in touch this this man who is that i just referenced who's contacting me said

01:05:04he went and talked to bruce on occasion at the car lot but i just picture i tried to picture

01:05:09bruce selling cars when you had been in all the spotlight and i mean it was just this wonderful

01:05:16life that you had you're married to the to kathy kent to kathy freeman kenzie um you're a minister

01:05:23um they they went on to have other children they end up having five other children um their first

01:05:30one had died their third child also died kathy herself has gone through a whole lot of tragedy

01:05:38um you know if kathy freeman kenzie ever hears this or friends of hers you know i would say to

01:05:45her i don't have any will ill will against kathy against bruce i don't have any ill will against

01:05:50hobart you know i i just think that so many bad things happened and they were allowed to happen

01:05:56and now we're 40 years later with no explanations no apologies let's just sweep everything under the

01:06:05rug people have to understand that is unacceptable too many people died too many lives have been

01:06:13harmed and damaged so i don't have any ill will i feel so sorry for kathy her first child in 1980

01:06:21died her father hobart freeman died four years later in 1984 her mother

01:06:30ava that everyone knows by her middle name june june died in 1999 her husband bruce died of

01:06:38leukemia in 2008 and her third born son died just a few years ago in 2016 here's a woman who's lost

01:06:52two of her children including her firstborn who's lost both of her parents who's lost her husband

01:06:57you know i just i have much love for kathy and for all of the people

01:07:04who have gone through the suffering that they've gone through but you know our my point is john

01:07:10this what people so much of this was preventable and if you don't stop the madness it's going to

01:07:18continue we've seen it continue it after hobart's death with the other ministers we've seen it

01:07:25continue in william branham's fallout we've seen it continue in paul kane and i hop mike bickle

01:07:35we're continuing and it doesn't have to be a part of some big movement it can just be you know your

01:07:42normal local 300 member church where you allow the leader to have absolute control over everybody

01:07:52and there's no explanations there are no apologies there's no accountability

01:07:58for fallout we've got to stop the madness and there are people like you

01:08:22so

01:08:52so

01:09:11you

Bruce Kinsey Part 2 - Faith Assembly Cult History - Episode 200 Branham Research Podcast

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