Bruce Kinsey: Faith Assembly Cult History - Episode 197 Branham Research Podcast - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/branham   Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts: https://william-branham.org/podcast   The discussion centers around Hobart Freeman's Faith Assembly, tracing the events leading to its decline. The conversation highlights how Freeman's authoritarian leadership contributed to the group’s eventual downfall, with key ministers and followers increasingly recognizing flaws in the cult's practices. The psychological aspects of cult leadership are explored, with Freeman's style aligning closely with traits of narcissistic personality disorder. The conversation provides insight into Freeman's approach to maintaining control, often invoking fear and divine threats to retain followers, while the leadership remained oblivious to the assembly's decreasing numbers and growing discontent.  Key figures like Bruce Kenzie are introduced, offering a window into the internal dynamics of Faith Assembly. Kenzie’s rise within the church, despite initial resistance from Freeman, shows how power and influence were carefully distributed. His eventual exit marks a critical turning point for the assembly, emphasizing how even those deeply embedded in the cult's leadership can break away. The complex relationships within the leadership and their strategic positions offer an intriguing look into how the assembly functioned and foreshadow its collapse.  Chino's YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@chinodross  00:00 Introduction   00:31 Insights on Faith Assembly's Decline   02:00 Internal Tensions and Conflicting Perspectives   04:48 The Role of Narcissism in Cult Leadership   08:01 Hobart Freeman's Authoritarian Control   13:03 Cult Tactics and Fear-Based Leadership   19:08 Interviews and Freeman's Use of Manipulation   24:03 The Hypocrisy of Leadership's Media Tactics   30:04 Parallels with Other Cult Movements   36:01 The Influence of Key Ministers   41:03 Bruce Kenzie’s Journey and Rise to Leadership   50:05 Challenges of New Converts in Leadership   59:04 Tensions Within the Leadership Structure   1:02:29 Conclusion and Implications for Faith Assembly ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00:00You

00:00:30Welcome to another episode of the William Branham historical research podcast. I'm your host John Collins

00:00:38The author and founder of William Branham historical research at William dash Branham org and with me

00:00:44I have my co-host minister and friend Chino Ross

00:00:48pastor and the voice of the understanding scripture and truth by Chino D Ross YouTube channel and

00:00:54And Chino we're getting back into all things Hobart Freeman and we're getting into

00:01:00some of the things that happen leading up to

00:01:04The you know, the final days of faith assembly

00:01:08So this for me, this is a little bit it's more interesting than it is anything for me

00:01:14because it's a look inside of the cult as it was beginning to show signs of I

00:01:20don't know what you call get ready to implode or

00:01:23What you know, it was the downfall of the Hobart Freeman cult

00:01:27But we're getting into an inside view of this which is going to be incredibly interesting

00:01:33I think for everyone listening and some people I don't know why John but they still get mad at me if I try to give

00:01:38an inside view

00:01:41as

00:01:42an outsider

00:01:43you're you're always giving an inside view as an insider, but I was an outsider with a lot of inside context and

00:01:52Associations, but you know, we spent a couple of interviews talking about the recent update

00:01:59In the ministers meeting a couple of weeks ago

00:02:01And by the way, I don't know if I told you but one of the ministers there

00:02:05By the way, they only know about this through your podcast. So had you not been doing this?

00:02:11They would never have have found out what you and I are doing. They've been following you with your

00:02:19Material on William Branham and then when I came into the picture earlier this year, then they took

00:02:26notice sat up straight and tall in their seats and really began listening to this but

00:02:32As we started the meeting one of them said I love John Collins. I watch everything that he says

00:02:40And then another one of them said I don't like that guy at all. I do not trust him

00:02:48So you probably get you know, you can't win them all can you know

00:02:52I I can honestly say that the guy that watches everything I do

00:02:55He's got to be a little bit crazy because I would make you crazy for that

00:03:00You know, I get the same thing

00:03:01I was my family was at the top of the Branham called my grandfather was the pastor at Branham's Tabernacle for 50 years

00:03:09And so I got to see and hear things that nobody else got to see in here

00:03:14But my family moved around a lot and so I was never really considered an insider in any of the Branham churches

00:03:22We went from church to church to church

00:03:24But I like you I was connected to people that I got to see everything from a different perspective

00:03:30and that's where this gets really odd because

00:03:34Many of the things that I say about the Branham cult I got to see it firsthand

00:03:39Or I got to speak with people who were

00:03:43Leading the whole thing, you know what I mean? So my perspective was it's accurate. I was there

00:03:49I got to see things that most of the church didn't see but because they didn't consider me a quote-unquote insider

00:03:56I get the same flack from the Branham cult, even though my family was at the top

00:04:00I think that's something that's benefited me actually John that I was a minister and early on I did follow Hobart

00:04:07But I wasn't a part of Faith Assembly

00:04:09So I knew a lot of stuff going on but like you just said, you know

00:04:14I had a different perspective and that was part of my criticism in our last

00:04:19Interview of the ministers that were there if they recognize the deficiencies that I recognize. Why didn't they point them out?

00:04:27It's probably easier as an outside insider

00:04:31Which I was rather than being an inside insider like they were

00:04:36To see the deficiencies and the problems

00:04:39but what we had talked about earlier those last couple of years, you know Hobart died in December of 84 and

00:04:46We'll get to that. There's a lot of interesting details that people are going to find fascinating with the events

00:04:54Surrounding and following his death

00:04:56But the last couple of years leading up to that the psyche of Faith Assembly was definitely under attack

00:05:04Attendance was under attack

00:05:06they were really hurting at Faith Assembly and

00:05:09rather than that causing the leadership to

00:05:13Step back and reevaluate which is something they simply they he there's only one in leadership

00:05:20He was never going to do

00:05:22rather than do that, you know, he just buckled down and just talked about everybody leaving and

00:05:29He often said if everyone left he had preached to the four walls and

00:05:35He probably would have it would have made him feel pretty good if everybody left and you know, he's Elijah Lord

00:05:42They've all left and I'm the only one still here. He probably would have

00:05:47but one thing we had looked at earlier John was in the in

00:05:501983 for the first time we had these big newspapers the Fort Wayne and then the Warsaw paper doing articles on Faith Assembly

00:05:59It exposed a number of deaths

00:06:01really brought a lot of attention to the church and

00:06:05the best series of articles that I'm sure people can still find was the series done in the Warsaw Times Union in

00:06:13late September of

00:06:161983 by dr. John Davis who had been a student of Hobart's back in grace theological seminary days

00:06:24He actually worked on the same degrees. He had a degree in Hebrew and Old Testament, which is

00:06:31Exactly what Hobart had from grace seminary?

00:06:35So a dr. Davis

00:06:38interviewed Hobart and

00:06:41In this little clip

00:06:43I'm gonna read from one of the articles that he did just to kind of bring us back up to date and to remind

00:06:49everyone that those last couple of years were

00:06:54Difficult because the screws were being tightened on the people. There were just a whole lot of

00:07:00completely unnecessary

00:07:02Threats that had come from the pulpit and if you go back to the early 70s, I could I could

00:07:09Give people

00:07:11Documentation for Hobart would say things like he'd be talking about body ministry

00:07:16Which is the ministry of the whole church that you you're not supposed to be out there paying us

00:07:23As your clergy you come and sit while we perform. This is body ministry

00:07:28We all have our role and that was you know, elevating the people status in the church

00:07:33but even in those early message messages, it's very

00:07:38interesting and

00:07:39Disturbing to hear early on when he would after saying that saying, you know

00:07:44All of you have a role in the body. You need to prophesy. Someone needs to bring a revelation. Someone needs to bring a tongues and

00:07:52Interpretation everyone needs to be a part and

00:07:55He'd say my role is just functional and then but it was at that point though. He would say

00:08:03But just because it's functional doesn't mean I don't have authority

00:08:06From the Lord and you don't ever want to test that authority that is on early tapes

00:08:13Now at the end of his ministry

00:08:15He didn't have to preface a warning with anything. He just threw the warning out there

00:08:19He was just gonna slap you in the face with it, but I can I can show early messages where?

00:08:26You know

00:08:27Somehow that was still lurking in the back of his mind this touch not mine anointed and do my prophets

00:08:33No harm that I am

00:08:35Because I am the minister. I'm somehow in a special

00:08:41Position even though he had just said he's not in a special position

00:08:44I'm in a special position where if you challenge my authority

00:08:51Then I have some type of power

00:08:54Over you and God will do something to you. I mean it just it just blows my mind

00:09:00Yeah, it's really for me. It's crazy interesting because I'm fascinated as as I've mentioned to you. I'm fascinated with psychology

00:09:09and

00:09:11Understanding that most of the cult leaders and in fact the reason why they become cult leaders

00:09:17they have narcissistic personality disorder or

00:09:21attributes of that and

00:09:23It's textbook. They have to have an authoritarian control over the people. They view other people as their subordinates

00:09:30and early on they try to make it such that

00:09:34Everybody else is empowering them because that gives them this feeling of

00:09:40You know, it excites their emotions because they can feel empowered but as they start to lose that control they they become

00:09:49very vicious towards the people under them and they will single out people or even divide entire groups of people and

00:09:55Turn one group or the other into an enemy and make them feel like they he the cult leader is being

00:10:03Persecuted by this group of people or an individual and turn the entire

00:10:09congregation against that

00:10:11that grouper or people because then the focus is on them as the enemy and it makes makes the

00:10:19Authoritarian figure feel like a hero it happens time and time and time again

00:10:24Happened you can look you can see evidence of this in Branham ism

00:10:27But you can literally study every single cult leader and it's the same across the board

00:10:32Well, if if that's true, you know more about psychology than I do then faith assembly is a textbook example of it

00:10:39And you even see it from beginning to end how it progresses and I always was amazed at I mean

00:10:47I heard those early comments in the early 70s, you know, I'm listening to them, you know

00:10:531976 and they didn't really make me afraid but I just kind of thought oh, wow. That's pretty cool. That's pretty powerful

00:10:59Wow, you know, but it didn't really it didn't really strike me as

00:11:04Wrong or odd, but again, I'm 17 years old and I'm listening to something that had probably been said three or four years before

00:11:11I'm hearing it

00:11:13But it never made me

00:11:16afraid to

00:11:18Obviously didn't make me afraid to challenge anything because that's the path my life. I went on to challenge things. So I don't know but

00:11:26Yeah, you know just the way he always talked down to the people and talking down would be like telling the same story for the

00:11:3450th time he would say well in

00:11:371952 on the road home from a nightclub when I got saved and God called me into the ministry and I lived by Matthew

00:11:42633 take no fault for the Mara thought

00:11:45we've heard that a hundred times and

00:11:49It's okay to tell it once or twice. There's nothing wrong with that

00:11:52But if I always thought John if you tell that a hundred times then what you're saying to me is

00:11:59I'm such an idiot. I can't even remember. I can't remember that. I've heard this before

00:12:03I mean to me that's dumbing down your audience

00:12:06Talking death and I remember early in the 70s when I first started listening to Kenneth Hagan

00:12:11hmm, and he would say in 19 and 37 such at my grandma and such-and-such and he'd tell the same stupid story from

00:12:1919 and 37 think man that was I was like

00:12:23back in the Dark Ages and

00:12:26I've already heard you tell that and

00:12:29Number one, I don't care about what happened in 1937 number two. I don't care about what happened to you

00:12:34I care about me and number three. I've already heard that so many times

00:12:39And I just couldn't I Hobart would tell and he did that John to the very end just tell the same story

00:12:46Yeah, and I'm sitting out there thinking what is that communicating to your audience that you think about them

00:12:54It's it's saying you think a whole lot about yourself

00:12:57We already know that to repeat this that often but it's also communicating

00:13:03Maybe I do know something about psychology and I don't know it because I always was processing this but it's telling me

00:13:09Hey, you know, you're you're pretty dumb

00:13:11You don't have a very good memory because in case you've forgotten let me tell you what happened in

00:13:171952 on the road home from a nightclub, you know what I'm saying? It happens so often

00:13:21I mean and that's another textbook trade of narcissism. I've been studying

00:13:27Recently, I've been studying the research about and I'm not gonna give the guy's name or the church's name

00:13:32but I'll just say that there was a lawsuit between them and the International House of Pancakes because

00:13:40There was

00:13:41Apparently there was some problems with the naming of their church

00:13:44But the leader of that church that I'm not going to name he kept going back to

00:13:50well in the 80s this happened and in the 80s this happened and over and over I've got many of his

00:13:55transcripts and I've been going through them and

00:13:59As I understand what's happening. It's kind of really sad when you think about

00:14:05The problems of the personality disorder that they have

00:14:09because what has happened is they've put themselves up on this pedestal that they themselves built with their words and

00:14:16They recognize internally. They know how they got up there because I told these people that back in the 80s

00:14:22I did this and and everybody believed me

00:14:25well, what happens is whenever there starts to be any questions about the authority or the

00:14:32When they feel like they're losing power

00:14:33They have to remind people how they got back on that pedestal

00:14:37And so every single time that there's any sort of conflict in the church, you're gonna hear a reminder

00:14:43This is how I got here. Remember I told you this and

00:14:47You know, I grew up in Branham ism. It was always back to the 1933 prophecies

00:14:53It wasn't until after I left I continually heard those and I'm like, well, why does he keep telling us?

00:14:59You know, we know what they are. I never even caught that each time that he told his alleged seven

00:15:06prophecies of 1933 that it was a different seven

00:15:12Because you're so caught up in it you as a cult member are

00:15:17You're not even thinking to critically examine what the guy says. You're just thinking. Oh, well, that's how he got up on this pedestal

00:15:23He has reminded me and I'm thankful. He's reminding me that he's on the pedestal

00:15:27Well, I'll give Hobart credit for consistency. He told the story the same way all the time, but I

00:15:34Don't know as teachers. I was talking with some people the other day and you know, I'm a teacher

00:15:38They were their teachers in a different field and I said don't all of us teachers want our students to end up smarter than us

00:15:45I mean don't all of us teachers

00:15:48And would it be terrible if you're teaching a class?

00:15:51It doesn't matter what the topic is and you and all your students keep coming up afterwards asking you the same question, you know

00:15:59There's something wrong. You're not doing your job

00:16:02But it's I guess it's like you're saying these types of leaders want people to always

00:16:09Need them and be in submission to them

00:16:13but I don't think that's the real goal of teaching the goal of teaching is to

00:16:18Lift people from a lower level of lack of knowledge to

00:16:22where they need to be with

00:16:25appropriate knowledge then they can handle things on their own and

00:16:29They don't need I mean I just

00:16:31It just seems like ministers for some reason are different kind of teacher because no college professor operates this way

00:16:39They want to bring you up to the level you pass the test you go on and then you go to the next grade

00:16:45The next level

00:16:46Where religious ministers they just want to keep everybody underneath them and it just doesn't make any sense

00:16:53It seemed like it's counterproductive if your goal is the benefit of the people. I guess if your goal is to

00:17:01keep a dumb flock with dumb sheep putting dumb money in the dumb offering then

00:17:07Maybe you're pretty smart as a leader because you've got them right where you want them to be. But anyway

00:17:13So

00:17:15Dr. Davis had interviewed he had gone to Faith Assembly. He had sat in on a few services

00:17:21He read all the Hobart's books

00:17:23listened to a lot of his messages did a 45 minute interview of Hobart after one of the services there at the new building in

00:17:30Wilmot and

00:17:31then went over to his house and interviewed him and

00:17:38He had this to say after

00:17:40This one and only home interview he said this ministry is frequently supported by fear

00:17:48members are often reminded of the curses and

00:17:51Punishments that follow a falling away from the faith as taught at the assembly

00:17:59Illustrations of this fact are regularly paraded before the congregation not only by Freeman

00:18:04But by other ministers in the assembly and I gave you one a few weeks ago where they had said

00:18:11Oh, yeah

00:18:11The reason that this newspaper editor and his wife and family were slaughtered

00:18:16Someone broke in their house and murdered them was because they had published an article and they didn't even have their dates

00:18:23Right. This guy wasn't even hired didn't even work for the paper until after the fact

00:18:29The use and here's the point. I want to get to with. Dr. Davis and dr

00:18:33Freeman the use of this technique came home with full force

00:18:38when I was leaving his house and

00:18:41He called my attention to the fact that virtually all the reporters who recently spoke critically of his ministry

00:18:49Have since suffered illness injury or death. I

00:18:54Assumed that bit of information was for my benefit

00:18:59And

00:19:00What I like to say and makes it just puts a big smile on my face

00:19:05Within a year and two months of that being written

00:19:09Hobart's dead

00:19:11We are 41 years later and dr. Davis. He's old, but he's still alive

00:19:18So, you know, I we use these at least I use these interviews with you John not just to give the facts

00:19:26But I have a burden to help people out and for people that hear this

00:19:31Now in their moment of life you hear some minister threaten you

00:19:37You need to give that guy a one-way bus bus ticket to Antarctica

00:19:42You need to get rid of that guy because there is no true

00:19:46minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ

00:19:49Who's ever gonna threaten anybody that goes contrary to everything that he stands for?

00:19:56And so we need to let people know if anyone threatens you or tries to browbeat you

00:20:02Get rid of him and you can do it in all confidence. You don't have anything to worry about

00:20:07Yeah

00:20:08you know

00:20:10for me it was just

00:20:12Once I recognized that it was such a different God that they were

00:20:17Proclaiming this was a god of wrath of punishment. It was no different than

00:20:22Ancient gods of Rome and Greece that you know, the very

00:20:26Very authoritarian gods that you really don't want to serve anyway, because they're they're not the good guys

00:20:32And we we received the same threats even before my website became what it is now

00:20:38It literally just started as me asking a few questions, and I wanted to answer those questions. I

00:20:44Ironically, I still thought that Branham was a prophet when I started all of this and I

00:20:49I was just asking some questions of things that I had concerns about and I

00:20:55Started receiving the same kind of threats. You're gonna die a horrific death John

00:20:59Well, you can't die a more horrific death than the cult leader himself

00:21:05You can go see the pictures of the accident and if that's the threat well

00:21:10Number one the cult leader died like that, but the bigger problem for me was

00:21:15If the Christian God that we serve is powerless to protect us

00:21:20Then what what God is this?

00:21:23Anyway, if he will cut you off that easily because that you ask a question

00:21:27It's no different than the false gods of ancient Greece and ancient Rome

00:21:32So I too have a passion for helping people just wake up and critically think if you're scared to think

00:21:39Then they can wreak havoc in your minds and I know fruit for me

00:21:44This is easy to talk about but you know

00:21:46It wasn't 40 years ago, and I don't know so I'm well aware of the fact that I hear things differently now

00:21:55Then I would have heard them 40 years ago. So someone who's on the verge of leaving

00:22:00I mean, that's just with fear and trembling that they're even going through life and I make a statement that sounds like oh

00:22:08Channel that sounds easy to you just up and leave it actually is really easy to do but I do understand

00:22:15There's a lot of trauma involved, but I wish I had had someone 40 years ago

00:22:21Say just get rid of that Freeman guy if he's threatening you because nobody was saying that I was having to come up with

00:22:28that in my own mind and

00:22:30I think it would have been a big help for me if someone had said, you know, hey, I know that

00:22:37Miriam got leprosy because she criticized Moses and that's in Numbers 12 and and

00:22:44Hobart loves to use passages like that, but don't worry. That was Moses. This is Hobart. Those are two different people

00:22:51There's no comparison at all

00:22:53That's what I needed to hear because as we are well aware these cult leaders

00:22:58they know the Bible well enough to cherry-pick it and they've got their passages all lined up and

00:23:05And

00:23:07You know as you're listening to them you go, oh well, yeah

00:23:10I guess that is true that if you criticize God's minister, maybe you'll end up with leprosy

00:23:15Well, if you criticize Moses, maybe you'll end up with leprosy

00:23:18But not William Branham or Hobart Freeman or Chennault Ross or John Collins. You can criticize them all you want

00:23:25You're not gonna get any leprosy, you know, nothing bad is gonna happen to you, right?

00:23:30The cults may give you a medal. In fact if you criticize me

00:23:35Yeah

00:23:38So, but you know something we I also had said earlier that I just found

00:23:44You know, these were the things that I was just continuing to find trouble with that Hobart had done a whole message on

00:23:52Not talking to the media

00:23:56He had basically forbidden the people no

00:24:00Talking to the media

00:24:02The only comment is no comment the oh and when they say what's a comment after that?

00:24:09It's no comment on top of no comment

00:24:12He did a message called natural raising the dead and natural childbirth because they had had someone die in childbirth

00:24:18This is the mid 90s

00:24:20he did a tape raising the dead and natural childbirth in which he said no comment and

00:24:26Taught them no comment and

00:24:28I in the passages that he used John you might not remember this because I've shared a lot in these interviews

00:24:35But the passion narratives of Christ where Jesus is before Herod and Pontius Pilate

00:24:41And they're asking him questions and it said that Jesus didn't give them an answer now

00:24:46He answered some questions, but on some he didn't and so there's an example where a cult leader

00:24:53They always have a proof text, you know a proof text I say without a context is a pretext for nonsense

00:25:00Don't pay any attention to a proof text

00:25:02It has to fit the whole scheme of Scripture or it doesn't have any meaning at all and just to cherry-pick it

00:25:09Which is what they do lift it out. So he had found some verses where Jesus said no comment

00:25:15But I'm thinking wow, that is almost blasphemous in my mind

00:25:20This is our Lord and Savior who for his own reasons

00:25:25Decided not to answer certain questions and you're using that as a parallel for you

00:25:32Just letting a child

00:25:35Die of a preventable illness the media is asking why since we value life more than you

00:25:43Christians do why did you let this child die and you're saying no comment and

00:25:48You're going to use something from the passion of Christ from his

00:25:53prior to his death his trial before Herod and Pontius Pilate as a

00:25:59Support for that man that just flies all in my face

00:26:03You know, that is not that is not how we're to use the Bible

00:26:09We should not pull passages out of context like that and Hobart just did it

00:26:15Glibly and everybody I'm sure John was

00:26:19Amazed that wow, he actually has a text for

00:26:23No comment if we're talking to

00:26:26secular authorities, but you know surely everybody who's listening this can see there's no comparison between what Jesus is experiencing and

00:26:35What was going on at Faith Assembly just no comparison at all

00:26:39But my point in bringing this back up again is

00:26:43Hobart had said no comment to the media and he gives an hour and a half interview

00:26:50Come on. I mean what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Is it not?

00:26:54You know, you're you are

00:26:56Contradicting the very so somehow you have the right to give an hour and a half

00:27:02comment to the media and

00:27:06Don't anybody say well he didn't know John

00:27:09Clearly said I am a reporter for the Warsaw Times Union. This is going in the newspaper

00:27:15This is an interview, but you know what? I think John and I'll see what you think on this

00:27:20I think that Hobart was so

00:27:25Self-deceived that he thought he could mesmerize this guy

00:27:29You know, why would you give an interview to the media? You know, they're gonna go write negative articles

00:27:35Unless you think that with your golden tongue and your ability to hypnotize and mesmerize

00:27:43That somehow you're gonna be able to say the right words and convince this guy or he's gonna go out

00:27:51And maybe next week come back and join Faith Assembly, you know after he's heard all of your beautiful words

00:27:59I don't know any other way to explain why Hobart would go against his own rules of no-comment

00:28:05Unless he thought he could get over on this guy

00:28:09Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism?

00:28:15transition through the latter reign

00:28:18Charismatic and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation

00:28:22You can learn this and more on William Branham historical research's website

00:28:27William dash Branham org on the books page of the website

00:28:31You can find the compiled research of John Collins Charles Paisley Stephen Montgomery

00:28:37John MacKinnon and others with links to the paper audio and digital versions of each book

00:28:43You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements

00:28:50If you want to contribute to the cause you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top

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00:29:03On behalf of William Branham historical research. We want to thank you for your support

00:29:08In my opinion is Gnosticism

00:29:11Whenever I when I was leaving the cult of William Branham

00:29:16There was a trial that happened. I think it was this very year. We left. I can't remember the exact year, but

00:29:22There's a trial of Jodi Arias who was in fact he was influenced by

00:29:28fundamentalist Mormonism I believe and

00:29:31her entire

00:29:32Strategy of defense was she had read this book called the secret

00:29:37which is basically telling you that if you think it hard enough you can make people believe it and

00:29:43I was fascinated as I'm watching this because that that was our religion man

00:29:49We we employed that from day to day in every single thing that we did. We employed the secret

00:29:56we had no idea what where it came from and as I'm watching it and I'm I hear

00:30:02Here's the news media talking about this. I'm

00:30:05Fascinated because this is my religion. So I started I began studying. Well, what is this?

00:30:10Where did this come from and you find it from Eastern mysticism and it developed through the years

00:30:16You know the Gnostics embedded it into Christianity and I started to realize that that's not the good religion

00:30:23that's not Christianity what she was doing and in in the end she her her trial was very highly unsuccessful it did not work, but

00:30:32The cult leaders think I believe that they are convinced that they can do this that they have

00:30:38Such power over your head that they can control your head

00:30:42Because they have seen the power of their words as far as

00:30:47Manipulating and brainwashing you so they believe they have this power over time and in the end. It's like Jodi Arias

00:30:54They they really don't have that much power. They have just indoctrinated you and that's as far as it goes

00:31:00Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're probably right

00:31:05so we've got the the heat of the newspaper articles and the second thing that's happening now in the

00:31:11Year, 1984 the legal troubles began. We're not going to review that but new state laws have passed

00:31:18We've actually got a couple of the members who have been tried and convicted

00:31:22the Hall family and David and Kathleen Bergman have gone to court because of the death of

00:31:28Of a dependent and prior to that time, there's not much the state could do but you know

00:31:34The state legislature got involved now law enforcement and local courts do have some authority and do have

00:31:41Some things they can do so with these newspaper articles

00:31:45Exposing the deaths with new legal troubles

00:31:49implementing new laws

00:31:51There was a lot of pressure and heat being put on Faith Assembly. And so consequently

00:31:56The membership was dwindling. I actually had a conversation last

00:32:01summer summer of 2023

00:32:03with Jeff Barnett

00:32:05That everybody who followed Faith Assembly will know he was a tier one a top-tier minister back then

00:32:12But I had a conversation with Jeff last summer

00:32:16About the end of Faith Assembly because he was there. He was one of the top ministers

00:32:21Ended up leaving and starting a big church down in the Indianapolis area which folded

00:32:27After Jeff decided to follow Paul Cain and Mike Bickle then that whole church folded so we can talk about them in the future

00:32:34But I talked to him last summer and you know Faith Assembly had been at

00:32:392,200 people membership or

00:32:422,300 or I mean it was above

00:32:442,000 and Jeff said by the fall of

00:32:481984 they were down to about 1,500 people

00:32:51so I think

00:32:53The handwriting was on the wall to borrow the story from the Prophet Daniel. The handwriting was on the wall that

00:33:01You know

00:33:03things were not going well and

00:33:06So people wanted out. I think some people probably just you know figured out this Christianity people left for different reasons

00:33:14Let's say they just didn't want to be under the pressure. I think some other people

00:33:19began to deduce

00:33:21Some things are wrong

00:33:23so they left

00:33:25ministers had a

00:33:27Couple of the lower-level

00:33:29Ministers had left if anyone wants to listen to a message of Hobart's entitled laying it on the line

00:33:38laying it on the line

00:33:39that is a long diatribe against some ministers who had left prior to

00:33:471984, you know, they were feeling the heat and they were feeling the pressure and so

00:33:53Dr. Freeman found need in a whole message called laying it on the line to you know

00:33:59Talk about these ministers who've left and then we get into the 83 and 84 season

00:34:07people were leaving and

00:34:10The ministry there didn't care it was

00:34:13Don't let the door hit you on the way out

00:34:16It was not at all

00:34:19Coming from a true Christian ministers perspective

00:34:24What have we what could we do differently? What have we done wrong?

00:34:29What need in your life? Is it that we're not meeting?

00:34:32You know, it was it's obvious that we're right and you're wrong. I mean that was just a given

00:34:40So there was never any

00:34:42introspection and you know, I've had a really good conversation last week John on

00:34:48Tuesday with Jerry Irvin

00:34:50Everybody will know Jerry Irvin Jerry Irvin was a song leader worship leader for Faith Assembly

00:34:56He goes all the way back to Hobart's living room days in their

00:35:001966 clay pool house

00:35:02He actually dated one of the Freeman daughters for a couple of years ended up not marrying her someone else did but

00:35:09Jerry said we had I had an hour and 16 minute conversation with Jerry last Tuesday and

00:35:16I'd already talked to him some before but he is wanting to listen to these pod

00:35:21He hadn't heard any of these interviews yet. I think he's gonna maybe start listening to him

00:35:26But he and I talked and I don't know anybody that doesn't like Jerry Irvin. He was a worship leader

00:35:32He's just the nicest most wonderful person and I had called him just to tell him

00:35:39I'd called him a while back say Jerry. I just want to tell you what a wonderful

00:35:43Blessing

00:35:44Your role there way back in glory barn days was to me when I was a teenager and I would listen to you leading

00:35:51The worship there. It's that same guitar. It's that same voice

00:35:55It's that same sweet spirit that never changed. It just never changed the whole time and

00:36:03He did not know me personally at all and I've never met Jerry in person, but he said hey he said man

00:36:10This is a great conversation. He said my wife and I we've just got a brand new house. Nobody here, but us

00:36:16We got extra bedrooms

00:36:17Once you make a road trip and come and hang out with me and we'll catch up

00:36:21I just Jerry if you're listening

00:36:24I may just take you up on that because there are so many things that we could talk about

00:36:29Because Jerry goes back to pre glory barn days

00:36:33Before the glory barn they were in Jerry Irvin's three-car garage

00:36:37That's where the church met and then before that they were in Hobart's home. But one of the points that Jerry made

00:36:44Was very interesting Hobart died of multiple illnesses one of them being diabetes and I said Jerry you were there

00:36:52I mean you were the worship leader

00:36:54Where when Hobart would come out the door from behind and take the pulpit you saw him all the time

00:37:02You know tell me that you saw something, you know, you had to have seen something and

00:37:09His opinion. I'm no medical doctor. I doubt Jerry is either his opinion was that the diabetes was really affecting

00:37:17Dr. Freeman, I don't know whether that's true. I know that there were problems, but he said he wasn't himself

00:37:24He was irritable. He was short-tempered

00:37:29He didn't have any patience at all

00:37:31He was hurting, you know, I think physically he was hurting he was in pain

00:37:37and I have read what the symptoms of

00:37:41Diabetes pretty bad diabetes untreated. And of course, it was definitely totally untreated in dr

00:37:46Freeman and he had other things that actually

00:37:50Caused his death

00:37:51but I you know, I think every every cult when it gets to the end has has

00:37:58Signs of this cataclysm is almost like end-of-life someone getting ready to die

00:38:04My wife has been a caregiver after she retired from state government. She's been a caregiver for several different elderly women and

00:38:13She says you can see there are just there are certain signs and they're like end-of-life

00:38:19Signs that you can see in a person and some people I think you know, or they're more intuitive

00:38:25My wife is very intuitive, you know, I'm a man. I just go by it's either sun is shining or it's not shining

00:38:31Those are your only two options

00:38:33She sees everything in between like maybe a partially sunny day. I see either all Sun or no Sun

00:38:40She has this intuition and a lot of people do and they see these things and I think

00:38:46There there were signs of the death of a religious cult and the death of a leader right then

00:38:53That if you had that

00:38:55Intuitive nature that maybe you could see and I asked Jerry

00:38:59did you say anything to Hobart and he said I did I tried to say some things, but I

00:39:06don't know if they just

00:39:07He didn't hear him or my guess would be because I can totally understand this Jerry

00:39:14It's just you're you're in such a subservient position

00:39:18To this leader who's taught you everything, you know, it's just very difficult to say. Hey, mr

00:39:26Leader, you're actually an error e r r o r. You're an error on this point

00:39:31that's just about impossible to do so, you know, I

00:39:35don't know but

00:39:38So we really so we really have serious troubles John. We've got people leaving

00:39:43We've got ministers leaving but the the biggest headline loss of all

00:39:49was Bruce Kinsey

00:39:52Bruce Kinsey

00:39:53was married to Kathy Freeman the middle of Hobart and June's three daughters and

00:40:00He was definitely tier one. I would say he was probably second in command there

00:40:06so that's what I want to get into with the time we have left is

00:40:10This

00:40:12Really precipitated the fall of Faith Assembly with Bruce Kinsey here at the very end

00:40:20Deciding that this was wasn't not for him. He was

00:40:26Like I said, he was a son-in-law all three of Hobart's daughters married ministers

00:40:32So the oldest daughter Pam married Steve Hill and Kathy married Bruce Kinsey and then the baby girl Becky married a Freeman

00:40:40That was good for her

00:40:41She didn't have to change a driver's license or anything because they already had the same last name

00:40:45But all three of the Freeman girls

00:40:49Married someone who either was a minister or in Bruce's case was going to end up being a minister. So I

00:40:57Can give you or you can find a little information if you can locate this book. This is Bruce's testimony book

00:41:05God will save your loved ones and on the

00:41:08Back is a great family photo taken behind the Freemans home

00:41:14down on Shoe Lake where you can see the three daughters the husbands Hobart in June and

00:41:22The grandchildren that they had at the time

00:41:26So here's a little background about Bruce Kinsey Bruce Kinsey

00:41:30was

00:41:31local

00:41:32Warsaw, Indiana

00:41:33Raised in Warsaw, Indiana graduated from high school there

00:41:38As soon as he got out of the high school

00:41:41He joined the Marines and we're talking about

00:41:441965 so we yes, we are talking about the Vietnam era and the Vietnam War and

00:41:51He flew to San Diego

00:41:53for basic training and then off he went to Okinawa and then later he ended up in Vietnam and

00:42:01Did four years from

00:42:0465 to

00:42:0569 or early 70 in the Marine Corps was a sergeant in the Marine Corps and

00:42:11You know was saw a lot of stuff

00:42:13I guess if he was there during that time then that means he was there during the Tet offensive

00:42:20Which was that huge problem in?

00:42:231968 in Vietnam, so I would assume that that Bruce was there during all that

00:42:29So he's a tough guy an unsaved guy a tough unsaved

00:42:34Marine sergeant and

00:42:37When he got out of the Marines, he came back to Indiana just to touch base

00:42:42He was planning on heading to the East Coast, but when he got back

00:42:47He tells a story in his little testimonial book. He was hanging out with friends

00:42:53They were at a pizza parlor and he happened to spot a young lady the friend that Bruce was with

00:43:01spotted a young lady

00:43:03Bruce's friend and the other young lady

00:43:06became an item and because that young lady's friend was

00:43:12Kathy Freeman then that brought Bruce and Kathy together a lot just because their friends were hanging out and before you know it

00:43:19Bruce says we're falling in love and before you know it

00:43:24Kathy's deciding she's gonna marry this this unsaved boy

00:43:28Well, that's not gonna go over very well in the Freeman home because they had been raised

00:43:33Properly and correctly by their parents, you know, you don't want to be unequally yoked in marriage with an unbeliever

00:43:40marriage is hard enough as

00:43:43It is with two Christians together

00:43:45Don't complicate the matters by being married to someone that doesn't share the same values that you do

00:43:51So Bruce tells a hilarious story in the book where they go over, you know, Kathy said yeah, you got to meet my parents

00:43:59So they go over to meet

00:44:01Hobart in June that was I think after a service on a Sunday night and

00:44:06And

00:44:07Bruce said, you know, I was going to condescend to their level and grace them with my presence and at least, you know

00:44:13Let her parents know who I was since I was gonna be marrying their daughter and it did not go very well

00:44:18Yeah, it did not go very well at all. It's a hilarious story that Bruce tells and

00:44:23So whenever they left Bruce was furious and he was bound and determined, you know

00:44:28I'm gonna marry you and they did get married by the way and

00:44:32Didn't even they elope they didn't tell her justice of the peace. It was not an official ceremony

00:44:37I don't think Kathy could bring herself to do it

00:44:40I think June found out in the grocery store that her daughter was married when someone said hey

00:44:45I'm glad to hear that Bruce and Kathy got married and June didn't even know they were married

00:44:50So it was it was it was a difficult time for the Freeman household to be to be sure

00:44:56But within a couple of years

00:44:58Bruce had a pretty remarkable

00:45:04Salvation experience

00:45:06I think he and Kathy married maybe in 70 or 71 and

00:45:12Bruce was converted to Christianity and a pretty remarkable experience in

00:45:181973 and again, he tells a story in the book Kathy had

00:45:24He had kind of kept Kathy away from church to new marriage and he kind of pulled her down to her level

00:45:30I think Kathy Kathy found her wits pretty quickly was back in church again. Bruce was not going to church at all

00:45:38Bruce worked for RJ Donnelly the big printing company there in

00:45:43Warsaw and he was just you know, living his life Kathy wanted to go back to church started going

00:45:49Wanted to go more

00:45:50Became a problem in the household

00:45:54But one night when Kathy came home Bruce had been reading a couple of testimonial books by some charismatics

00:46:02Was pretty startled by it and said he needed to find out the truth about all of this

00:46:07Jesus stuff and this salvation stuff and she said well

00:46:11Let's go see my dad and that was the last person because the first meeting didn't go very well

00:46:15That was the last person Bruce wanted to see but he in did end up back over at dr. Freeman's house and Freeman's study

00:46:23He Hobart prayed with him to receive Jesus

00:46:28Prayed for him to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It was just an incredible experience for Bruce, you know

00:46:35night and day difference a complete turnaround in his life and

00:46:40and a real experience

00:46:43Because I mean it just totally changed Bruce's life and

00:46:48It brought him and Kathy obviously into very close

00:46:53Fellowship with each other and it was also a cause for great rejoicing at the church

00:47:00So there is a there is a message that Hobart did

00:47:05John it was called

00:47:08the old number of it was an

00:47:1012-36 and it was called the prayer of

00:47:14Resignation, so if you could bring up the little quote, I want to share from this

00:47:20He never saves people against the will they'd go to hell if we didn't claim a lot of people been saved we've claimed

00:47:26There's one sitting there

00:47:40But

00:47:43You see he had to believe

00:47:46When my wife and I when he went out the door shaking his head

00:47:49He didn't believe any of this and he was all mixed up in all kinds of cults and religions

00:47:55We just didn't get panicky. We said it works everywhere else at work here

00:47:59We claimed he saved baptized in the Holy Ghost wife said he's gonna preach

00:48:02This was something that was huge for faith assembly at that time here had been

00:48:08One of the biggest critics of the church here is a man minister to one of Hobart's daughters and

00:48:17as

00:48:18We heard in that clip, you know

00:48:21Hobart's talking about the importance of our prayers for people around us and as we heard him say, you know

00:48:28if we didn't pray for a relative some of them would go to hell and

00:48:32Then he says there's one of them sitting right there and you hear Bruce saying hallelujah

00:48:38That's Bruce sitting there and and and Bruce and then Hobart tells the story, you know, Kathy brought him to the door

00:48:47we met Bruce went out angry, but

00:48:51My wife and I and one of our daughters

00:48:53We just claimed his salvation claimed his baptism in the Holy Spirit and my wife even added in and Lord

00:48:59We want him to be a preacher. He's gonna preach

00:49:03so this is

00:49:051973

00:49:06They've been at the glory barn for a year

00:49:09It was just wave after wave of positive emotion now because this is validation

00:49:15This is some good validation for the ministry and for everything that Hobart's been teaching

00:49:21Now this unsaved boy

00:49:24Young man married to my daughter. I mean they had prayed for his salvation and here he is

00:49:30Saved sitting there in the glory barn

00:49:33Witnessing to people at his own

00:49:35Place of employment. He's the one I believe who had shared the gospel with Jerry Burkett

00:49:41Because Burkett worked there Burkett became one of the ministers at Faith Assembly

00:49:46And we've shared his tragic story and the story of his wife Sally in the past

00:49:51but I mean Bruce just is skyrocketing here a

00:49:56year later in

00:49:591974 Bruce has been saved for one year a year later. Bruce is given the Friday night glory barn meeting

00:50:07Now that's a pretty big deal that meeting had been held by another son-in-law Steve Hill Steve Hill

00:50:15Was one of the ministers who?

00:50:18Early on had worked with Mel Grider the owner of the barn

00:50:23To help establish this little halfway house coffee house kind of place

00:50:28We got to also remember the backdrop to all this John

00:50:31This is right in the middle of and right after the Jesus movement

00:50:35I mean whenever Bruce is in Vietnam, this is these are the days of going to the moon

00:50:43assassination of Martin Luther King and

00:50:45Senator Kennedy, it's Woodstock. I mean, it's it's a Vietnam War

00:50:50It's it's the National Guard killing of the students at Kent State

00:50:55I mean this was a

00:50:58revolutionary

00:50:59period in American history the late 60s and early 70s

00:51:03So that's when all of this is going on and everything is, you know

00:51:07Groovy this and cool that and man this back in those days

00:51:12And so Steve and Jerry Irvin Jerry, by the way, let me back up Jerry Irvin the song leader

00:51:20had dated

00:51:22Kathy Freeman

00:51:23For a year and a half back in the 60s. Jerry said here's the way I met Kathy

00:51:29He said we had a little band

00:51:30He's played in this little band Jerry and his buddies in Claypool of all places

00:51:35Claypool, Indiana back in the 60s and he said one time here comes these three sisters walking along

00:51:42It was a Freeman sisters. It was Pam and Kathy and Becky said I didn't know them

00:51:46But he said, you know, they listened to a sing and struck up a conversation and I got to know the middle daughter Kathy

00:51:53And then she said, you know, my dad is a minister and we meet in our living room

00:51:58Like what you got a church in your home in your living room

00:52:02So Jerry started going to the meetings at the Freeman home

00:52:07started dating Kathy

00:52:09Kathy was the one who prayed for Jerry to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit

00:52:15Jerry said I've got all this connection to the Freeman family from way back here in the very beginning

00:52:21There was another guy named

00:52:24Who was the worship Oh Larry Delaney was the worship leader in the home

00:52:30prior to Jerry taking over and and Hobart mentions Larry Delaney on a lot of different early early tapes

00:52:37You'll hear the name Larry Delaney. Well, Larry Delaney had been a student of Hobart's at Grace Seminary

00:52:42so this again was one of those people who followed Hobart from

00:52:48Non-charismatic Grace Seminary days

00:52:51Into the church and then in

00:52:541966 in March that whole church in Freeman's home had become charismatic and so Larry Delaney was a song leader

00:53:02Jerry said

00:53:03He filled in a time or two for Larry and I think it just became obvious

00:53:09That Jerry should probably be the leader, you know, some things just become obvious people just having a gift

00:53:16You know, they have you can call an anointing which I do believe in they have an anointing they have a gift

00:53:22They have the ability they have the personality to do it. And so

00:53:26by

00:53:271968 Jerry Irvin had become the song leader and then he stayed the song leader

00:53:32To the very end even after Hobart's death

00:53:36Jerry stayed until he got kicked out of Faith Assembly, by the way, we can talk about that later

00:53:41but that's post Faith Assembly days when you know, you got the Freemanites and the non Freemanites and

00:53:47Never the twain are gonna mix. It wasn't a good setting Hobart held everything together

00:53:52you have to have the personality before you can have the cult of personality and Hobart was that

00:53:59Personality that held everything together

00:54:02But no Jerry Jerry goes goes way back. So so he knew Bruce

00:54:08He dated Kathy for you know, 18 months and

00:54:12then Bruce is the one who actually ended up marrying her and then

00:54:18Steve had started this Friday night meeting at the glory barn and

00:54:26Of course back in those days I didn't recognize the timing of it

00:54:30You know when you're 17 if someone is 24, it's they're no different than being

00:54:3654 or 84. They're just a lot older than you

00:54:39So these men were older than me and I didn't realize that we were almost the same age

00:54:44They're just a little bit older, but you just look up to them like Wow, Jerry Irvin and Steve Hill and Bruce Kinsey

00:54:52Wow, heck I was in my teens and they're in their 20s, you know

00:54:56But that's a pretty big gap at that point of your life

00:55:00But now and I've talked to other people and I talked we talked about this in the minister's meeting up in Indiana last month

00:55:08Bruce has been saved for one year and he's given

00:55:15his

00:55:16other the other his brother-in-law

00:55:19Steve's Friday night meeting and

00:55:23I said that just rings bells to me doesn't that isn't there a verse it says in first Timothy 3

00:55:296 you don't want to put a novice in the position of a teaching elder

00:55:36For all of the obvious reasons and I even asked them. I said well you guys looking back on that

00:55:43You know, what do you say? Yes or no?

00:55:47No, you can't do that. I said well it was done and

00:55:51It was done by Hobart. It was done with Hobart's approval and I asked them because I didn't know the background

00:55:59I said well was Steve upset over that and I asked Jerry and Jerry said it wasn't a big deal really to Steve because

00:56:05Jerry and Steve at that time who were working together

00:56:10Were oh, I got to add in one other part to this story. So

00:56:15So Steve is married to the oldest Freeman daughter Pam

00:56:21Jerry is married to Steve Hill's sister or was married Kathy Hill

00:56:29Okay, so you got to know how all of this works. So Jerry dated Kathy stopped dating. She married Bruce

00:56:38Steve married the oldest Freeman daughter Pam and

00:56:42Jerry is was married to Kathy

00:56:46Hill

00:56:47Steve's

00:56:49Sister, I even had to think about it to make sure I get it right and they actually had a double wedding

00:56:54so Jerry and Steve Jerry

00:56:57Steve married a Freeman daughter Jerry married

00:57:01Steve Hill's sister on the same day. He said yeah, we had this great

00:57:05Double wedding. So are you sure this church wasn't in Kentucky?

00:57:11It wasn't it was northern, Indiana

00:57:14But you know close

00:57:17So they had a close connection, you know, there's a brother-in-law of mine. They had a they had a close very close

00:57:23connection there so

00:57:26They were in the process of starting Steve's what would become a pretty big meeting up in Rockford, Illinois

00:57:32that was a satellite group and

00:57:35Steve was the leader of that group and it grew to be a pretty good size and they were in the process of starting that

00:57:41so with them starting that meeting and Steve giving up the

00:57:47Friday night meeting at the barn wasn't that big of a deal

00:57:51In Steve's mind

00:57:53But I think in hindsight

00:57:55You know more thought should have been gone into should have been put into that more thought should have gone into that

00:58:02Because Bruce was a brand-new Christian

00:58:05So, you know, he's given the Friday night meeting and then two years after that. He starts his

00:58:11Second big meeting up there on the campus of Purdue University in West Lafayette

00:58:17There was a group of college students that had gotten together

00:58:20You know, that's how all these little these little groups got started with just a handful of people then contacting

00:58:28Faith ministry saying can you send us a teacher?

00:58:31So, you know, there were some college students there

00:58:33it became known as the lighthouse and became a pretty big satellite group, so

00:58:41Steve Hill had the Rockford, Illinois one Bruce Kenzie had the West Lafayette, Indiana one at Purdue University

00:58:48And it was called the lighthouse and it and it grew to be a fairly big

00:58:53Meeting as well. And then Bruce just continued to rise

00:58:57So you got to picture this in these days at Faith Assembly here is a

00:59:03reprobate unsaved heathen boy who's married into the

00:59:08the leadership family

00:59:10Against the authority and wishes of the family and now he's converted

00:59:15So these are times of tremendous excitement at Faith Assembly. The message is validated

00:59:23The it the church is just growing by leaps and bounds and I don't question Bruce's conversion at all

00:59:30I I grew to know Bruce and like Bruce a lot. I listened to his tapes. He's one of the ministers that I

00:59:39Liked I would say more than most of the other ones

00:59:42he had some things to say I have to qualify that later, but he did have some things to say and

00:59:49I think a lot of people liked Bruce and the thing about Bruce that was different is, you know

00:59:54Bruce had some worldly experience. He was a sergeant in the Marine Corps. So he wasn't some little

01:00:01Little weakling that had you know, squeezed in under Hobart's coattails or something

01:00:07He's someone that came on the scene

01:00:09already having done his

01:00:11drinking and his in his smoking pot and his cigarettes and all the worldly stuff you do when you're in Vietnam and

01:00:19He had already investigated

01:00:22Transcendental meditation and Zen Buddhism. He had already gone down the philosophy path

01:00:28you know, so he came with some some street sense to him and

01:00:33and

01:00:34You know, the reason we're discussing Bruce now is that he was the big first big-time minister to exit and you know

01:00:44Psychologically, maybe this explains why you know brew early cement all of this and he was one of the ones

01:00:50Who was going to be if anybody was who was going to be willing to?

01:00:56challenge, you know what Hobart was saying and the direction that

01:01:00That dr. Freeman and that the church was going in so

01:01:04One last comment and maybe we can pick up next time John another thing that gave Bruce a lot of power

01:01:11Is that he was the one who ended up scheduling?

01:01:15The Sunday morning ministers whenever Hobart wasn't there

01:01:19So he was

01:01:21Hobart had what he called two associate pastors. He had Stan Hill, which was Steve Hill's father

01:01:27He had Stan Hill and he had

01:01:30Jack Farrell and

01:01:32I think the reason it was pretty smart on Hobart's part to have these two men as the associate ministers is because they were older

01:01:39Men, all the other ministers were young

01:01:42Hobart was old Stan Hill and Jack Farrell were two older men a lot older than the younger ministers

01:01:49and that was a wise decision in my opinion on Hobart's part to have them as

01:01:56Associate ministers

01:01:57but the second in command that faith assembly was Bruce Kinsey and that was because of his personality because he had the

01:02:05Big big big Friday night meeting and because he had control of the pulpit schedule

01:02:11So if you could kind of become

01:02:14buddies with Bruce and

01:02:17Hobart was gone on vacation and Bruce liked you then guess who got to preach on the at the big

01:02:23Mother Church on Sunday morning, so that also kind of sets the scene for some potential

01:02:31conflicts of interest here down the road

01:02:33yeah, that's powerful the

01:02:36the way that the cults recruit is

01:02:39very deceptive because

01:02:42What you're describing here the man had a Christian experience and in normal Christian churches

01:02:48They say well praise God. He had a Christian experience

01:02:51But in a cult church, they tried to bind that experience to the cult and so forever

01:02:57It's difficult to escape because they have made the two one in the same if you leave the church

01:03:02You're leaving your Christian experience. That's how the cult spends it. So the fact that he was able to leave is

01:03:09significant and

01:03:10I'm excited to get in the next episode to see how all that went down because it's it's very unusual in these cult churches for

01:03:18Somebody to be able to break away, especially somebody at that level

01:03:21it is it is not only unusual, but it's it gives you a look inside of

01:03:27How the conflicts can lead to a cult implosion which sounds like was it was about to happen?

01:03:35But so we'll split it here. We've got we got way more than we can cover in today's episode

01:03:40So if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web

01:03:44You can find us at William dash Branham org

01:03:48For an overview of the historical research of William Branham and the healing revivalist

01:03:52You can read preacher behind the white hoods a critical examination of William Branham and his message

01:03:58available on Amazon Kindle and audible

01:04:18You

01:04:48You

Bruce Kinsey: Faith Assembly Cult History - Episode 197 Branham Research Podcast

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