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00:00Welcome to the programme. Leaders of European Union countries are gathering today in Brussels
00:10for a summit focused on migration. It is expected to cement a shift to the right in the bloc's
00:17policies towards asylum seekers. And at the heart of the rightward shift is Giorgia Maloney,
00:24Italy's Prime Minister, who in a European first has recently agreed a deal with Albania
00:31to process migrants there. Kemi Knight has the report.
00:37This restaurant in Albania is entirely dedicated to Giorgia Maloney. 70 portraits of the Italian
00:43Prime Minister are plastered on the walls and its location is no coincidence. It's right
00:48by a camp where asylum seekers hoping to enter the EU are being processed, part of a controversial
00:54pact promoted by Maloney.
00:57Do you want to know why I love Maloney? Because Maloney is the only voice in Europe that tells
01:02the truth.
01:05Not everyone agrees with him, but Maloney has certainly been making headlines recently
01:09and even received praise over her hardline immigration plans. NGOs still stand firmly
01:15against them, but a number of leaders, including British Labour Prime Minister Keir Starmer,
01:20have lauded her efforts to curb illegal crossings. Even European Commission President Ursula
01:25von der Leyen has endorsed the far-right leader's plan to establish so-called return hubs outside
01:31EU territory.
01:33Italy has set a good example by signing the Italy-Albania protocol to process asylum claims
01:38on Albanian territory but under Italian and European jurisdiction.
01:42Beyond Europe, Maloney has also established herself as a key partner for migratory cooperation,
01:47visiting North Africa almost a dozen times since coming to power and regularly meeting
01:52with leaders like Tunisia's Cais Saeed. She's also leading a push to normalise ties with
01:57Syria, which have been cut off since 2011. She told the Italian Senate Tuesday that it
02:02was necessary to review the EU strategy for Syria and to work with all actors to create
02:07the conditions for Syrian refugees to return to their homeland.
02:11Maloney has also drawn attention over her condemnation of Israeli attacks on UN peacekeepers,
02:17announcing a visit to Lebanon on Friday that will make her the highest-ranked official
02:21to visit the country since the start of the war.
02:25Well with me on the line live now is Vivian Gravy. She's a lecturer in European politics
02:31at Queen's University in Belfast. She joins us from there. Good afternoon to you and thanks
02:36for joining us.
02:38First of all, on the Italy-Albania deal, do you think that this could be a model for other
02:44European countries to follow?
02:48I think it's fascinating that we are now talking about this when the EU was very critical of
02:55potential UK-Rwanda deal earlier under the previous government in the UK. We're seeing
03:01a radical shift in the EU toward this. And yes, we are seeing Prime Minister Barnier,
03:08we are seeing also Keir Starmer from the UK being very interested in what's happening
03:11in Italy. But it is a big challenge for Europe that the fact that we have a far-right leader
03:16in Italy and that suddenly most European countries are interested. So yes, it is a possibility,
03:22but it is a very concerning one.
03:24Yes, I was going to ask you about Rwanda actually and those UK plans to try and deport migrants
03:31there because that faced lots of legal challenges, didn't it, in European courts as well as in
03:37UK courts. Is this deal agreed between Italy and Albania subject to such challenges or
03:45is this something that is seen, broadly speaking, as legal?
03:49I think there's big differences there around the perception of what's a safe country or
03:54not. And Albania is considered more safe than Rwanda. But we are seeing a move towards not
04:01just thinking of Albania, but we were hearing, for example, from the Austrian chancellor
04:06wanting to say that actually perhaps Syria should be considered a safe country. Similarly,
04:11Maloney was making the same move. So Albania will not take all of EU's asylum seekers.
04:19What we are seeing now is a move towards exporting a lot of our asylum seekers in countries
04:26that are not actually safe, but that there's going to be push to declare them safe.
04:30And that was what happened in the UK, where you had then actually a law passed through
04:35Westminster to consider Rwanda safe, because the courts had told the government Rwanda
04:42is not safe. And so then the government had to pass a law making it safe. And so we are
04:47entering in a weird territory where whether a country is safe or not for refugees is not
04:54going to be decided politically.
04:55Indeed. And you did mention Syria and this apparent consideration by Georgia Maloney
05:01to bring Bashar al-Assad, the Syrian leader, back in from the cold. This in the context,
05:07obviously, of the war in Lebanon, hundreds of thousands of people displaced there. Look,
05:13that is quite different, isn't it? Syria to somewhere like Albania. Do you really think
05:18that other European leaders are willing to consider Syria as a country where actually
05:24they think it's safe to send people?
05:28Well, so the Austrian chancellor was considering Syria safe as well in declaration ahead of
05:36today's summit. He was also mentioning that we should have more refugees being sent back
05:41to Afghanistan. And we have seen that in Germany, Denmark as well has sent back people to
05:48Afghanistan. Of course, you know, if you're a woman in Afghanistan, is it really a safe
05:53country? There is a lot of pushback. There is a lot of effort to send people back. So I
06:01don't think it will. I mean, you know, European summits happen every few months. I don't
06:06think that Syria will be considered safe today. But the fact that it is already put on the
06:11agenda for today shows that this is a direction of travel. And of course, the war, the
06:17escalation of the war in Lebanon is going to make sure that this actually stays on the
06:21agenda. And in terms particularly of what has been agreed, which is that deal between Italy
06:28and Albania, I mean, NGOs have been very critical of that. They've said, look, it's
06:32expensive, and it's probably not going to work. They say they, you know, these NGOs
06:38arguing that people will still try to come to Europe, but indeed, they may use more
06:43dangerous routes to do so. Do you think that that is true? Or could this really be a
06:48deterrent for people?
06:50So what we've seen with the Rwanda case is that it was going to cost a lot of money to
06:57the UK. And it has cost a lot of money because most of that money cannot be gained back
07:02from Rwanda, even if the scheme is not going to go ahead. But we did, we didn't see a
07:07drop in crossing of the Channel. But we did see some more movement across the Irish
07:12border for people fleeing the UK through Northern Ireland to get refuge in Ireland and
07:17to not risk being sent to Rwanda. So you will have, you know, refugees will react, but
07:22they won't react necessarily in the way that European politicians want, which is they
07:28won't come to Europe. No, they will still come to Europe. But they perhaps will try
07:32to enter through Greece, instead of through Italy, for example, which could also be
07:37extremely dangerous for them.
07:40And look, it's not just Italy that is imposing now these kinds of measures or at least
07:46talking about it. We've seen Germany reinstate border controls, the Dutch government talking
07:51about Uganda as a country where they may be interested in outsourcing migration services.
07:58Look, overall, why do you think we are seeing such a rightward shift in Europe on the
08:05question of migration? Is it simply because, look, that's what voters want?
08:09It's an excellent question. I'm not sure I have a full answer for that. I do think
08:14there's something around that is, it is part of what voters want, but voters want much
08:22just voters want a better life. And in many ways, like, you know, our current governments
08:27are struggling to find ways of delivering this. So they focus on some things that will,
08:34you know, will grab headlines and they'll have the impression they're doing something.
08:38But what is really worrying is if we look back at the beginning, like the last height
08:42of the refugee crisis, you know, 2015, where we had proper European leadership, we had
08:47Angela Merkel open borders, say, you know, we'll manage this, we will be able to help
08:53and cope with refugees. This was, you know, the EU as the biggest economic bloc in the
08:59world saying, of course, we can actually handle refugees, we can integrate them, we can make
09:04them a good, like, you know, part of our society. And today, what we have is Europe is still
09:10very rich, but it is decided to, you know, what human rights matter for our people, but
09:16we can actually treat refugees in inhumane ways. And the fact that this is now spreading
09:22is really worrying for Europe in terms of any kind of thought leadership in the world,
09:26any kind of thought leadership in the world, because we are showing that we actually don't
09:30really care about the rest of the world. And just a final question for you, as you suggest,
09:35what we're seeing today at a European level is such a stark shift from what we saw back
09:40in 2015, when Angela Merkel was running Germany and the country took in over 1 million refugees.
09:47Do you think what we are witnessing today is effectively a backlash to 2015?
09:54I think in a way we are seeing exactly the same as 2015, which is divided continent. It's just,
10:00it's not the same, the same countries are not necessarily on the same side. So Sweden and
10:04Germany then were the most ambitious and generous, and they're definitely not now.
10:11But yeah, no, it is, it is a strong backlash. I think it is not necessarily so much the fact
10:16that the backlash happens also in countries like France, that took a very small share of refugees
10:23so that it is, the backlash is not necessarily rational, it's not linked to the number of
10:27refugees. It is linked to general dissatisfaction with how our democracy is working, and or the
10:34economic health of Europe. Vivienne Gravy talking to us there. Great to speak to you. Thanks very
10:39much.