EarthX Website: https://earthxmedia.com/
Population Activist, Florence Blondel, and a Senior Officer of Population Matters, Olivia Nater, discuss "Sustainable Development Goals" in regards to family size, and if these goals realistic.
About The Population Factor:
A series of key conversations examining the connection between our planet’s growing population & related issues. Expect to be educated on a range of topics including climate change, wildlife preservation, immigration policy & consumption patterns.
EarthX
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EarthX is a media company dedicated to inspiring people to care about the planet. We take an omni channel approach to reach audiences of every age through its robust 24/7 linear channel distributed across cable and FAST outlets, along with dynamic, solution oriented short form content on social and digital platforms. EarthX is home to original series, documentaries and snackable content that offer sustainable solutions to environmental challenges. EarthX is the only network that delivers entertaining and inspiring topics that impact and inspire our lives on climate and sustainability.
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Population Activist, Florence Blondel, and a Senior Officer of Population Matters, Olivia Nater, discuss "Sustainable Development Goals" in regards to family size, and if these goals realistic.
About The Population Factor:
A series of key conversations examining the connection between our planet’s growing population & related issues. Expect to be educated on a range of topics including climate change, wildlife preservation, immigration policy & consumption patterns.
EarthX
Love Our Planet.
The Official Network of Earth Day.
About Us:
At EarthX, we believe our planet is a pretty special place. The people, landscapes, and critters are likely unique to the entire universe, so we consider ourselves lucky to be here. We are committed to protecting the environment by inspiring conservation and sustainability, and our programming along with our range of expert hosts support this mission. We’re glad you’re with us.
EarthX is a media company dedicated to inspiring people to care about the planet. We take an omni channel approach to reach audiences of every age through its robust 24/7 linear channel distributed across cable and FAST outlets, along with dynamic, solution oriented short form content on social and digital platforms. EarthX is home to original series, documentaries and snackable content that offer sustainable solutions to environmental challenges. EarthX is the only network that delivers entertaining and inspiring topics that impact and inspire our lives on climate and sustainability.
EarthX Website: https://earthxmedia.com/
Follow Us:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/earthxmedia/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/earthxmedia
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EarthXMedia/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@earthxmedia
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@EarthXMedia
How to watch:
United States:
- Spectrum
- AT&T U-verse (1267)
- DIRECTV (267)
- Philo
- FuboTV
- Plex
- Fire TV
#EarthDay #Environment #Sustainability #Ecofriendly #Conservation #EarthX
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TVTranscript
00:00In 2015, world leaders committed to achieving the United Nations Sustainable Development
00:06Goals.
00:07We resolve between now and 2030 to end poverty and hunger everywhere in the world, they stated,
00:14to combat inequalities within and among countries, to build peaceful, just, and inclusive societies,
00:20to protect human rights and promote gender equality and the empowerment of women and
00:25girls, and to ensure the lasting protection of the planet and its natural resources.
00:31Five years on, how are nations doing in their efforts to meet the Sustainable Development
00:35Goals?
00:36And how might their population policies be helping or hindering those efforts?
00:41To help answer these questions, I'm joined today by Florence Blondell and Olivia Nader.
00:47Florence is an environmental and health campaigner and digital marketer currently living in Charlotte,
00:52North Carolina.
00:54She's worked as a journalist in her native Uganda and managed campaigns and projects
00:58for Population Matters, the UK charity dedicated to population stabilization.
01:04Florence holds a master's degree in population and development from the London School of
01:08Economics.
01:11Olivia Nader is senior communications officer at Population Matters.
01:15Before joining PM, Olivia worked at Friends of the Earth Scotland and for the International
01:20Union for the Conservation of Nature in Switzerland.
01:24Passionate about wildlife, she holds a master's degree in zoology from my neighbor to the
01:29north, the University of Wyoming.
01:32Florence and Olivia, welcome to The Population Factor.
01:35Thanks for having us.
01:38Thank you so much for having us.
01:39It's so nice to be here.
01:41Well, let's start at the beginning.
01:44What exactly are the Sustainable Development Goals?
01:47Who came up with them?
01:49Well, you practically described what they are when you say what they aim to achieve.
01:56Because they are a follow up to the Global Millennium Development Goals, which were stopped
02:02in 2015.
02:04And as you've said, they aim to move towards equitable, peaceful and resilient as well
02:08as prosperous societies and within a sustainable planetary boundary.
02:14So these took over the Millennium Development Goals, which were about eight.
02:20And of course, some countries were on track, while others were off track, especially in
02:26sub-Saharan Africa, which is my region.
02:29But there was some bit of achievements, but they saw the need to push this further.
02:35That's why they came up with the SDGs, and they just expanded them to 17, because they
02:41realized there was a lot that needed really to be fitted in.
02:46So that's why now, here we are.
02:49And at the moment, I don't want to go into it, but I don't think we are on track for
02:55most countries.
02:57So Florence, as you say, there's a sort of an overall view of the kind of society that
03:05the Sustainability Development Goals are trying to achieve.
03:10It's a just society, a peaceful society, a healthy society.
03:16But as you also mentioned, there are 17 of these goals.
03:20And I think something like 170 targets within the different goals, very specific targets
03:27to meet them.
03:28So tell us what some of the most important Sustainable Development Goals are.
03:34Well, they're all important, you can't ignore them.
03:40But for me, what stands out, obviously, goal one on poverty really does stand out, hunger
03:48does stand out, education.
03:50The first actually five goals do really stand out so much for me, because there is gender
03:54equality, there's well-being and health, which is goal three, wherein they cover non-communicable
04:02and communicable diseases, and the postdoc, I won't say it's expansive, about sexual and
04:08reproductive rights, you know, bringing in family planning issues, reproductive rights
04:14for women and girls.
04:16So yes, those first five really touch my heart.
04:19And of course, even going forward, when you look at climate change, that is goal 13, consumption,
04:26which is goal 12, after living in a developed world, of course, I care now more about consumption,
04:32which is not an issue back home in low-income countries.
04:36So yes, those really stand out for me, as well as the dimension of sustainable cities.
04:44So especially for the benefit of the Americans listening in, in my experience, people in
04:50Europe, and I think even people in the developing world, know more about the Sustainable Development
04:58Goals.
04:59They know what they are, they know that governments are supposed to be pursuing them.
05:03So just to give the American viewers a sense of how these work.
05:07So goal number one is end poverty in all its forms, everywhere.
05:12Hugely ambitious goal.
05:15And goals, so the targets within that goal are things like, by 2030, no one in the world
05:24will be living below an extreme poverty line of less than $1.25 a day.
05:31Another goal is to, by 2030, have the number of people living under the national poverty
05:38lines, whatever nations have set as their poverty lines.
05:43And again, when you go to something like goal three, ensure healthy lives and promote well-being
05:47for all ages, there are specific targets within that.
05:51Because I think one of the things that governments found in the past with some of these UN goals,
05:58the Millennium Development Goals, for instance, was they were so general that people could
06:05make a general commitment to them.
06:08The goal here instead is for countries to work towards very specific ways of improving
06:17the lives of people within their countries.
06:21So I have a sense of how fully achieving the SDGs could improve life in developing nations,
06:28like the U.S.
06:29For instance, under goal number three, ensure healthy lives for all, it includes this target.
06:36Achieve universal health coverage, including financial risk protection for everyone.
06:40So in the context of the United States, that would improve a lot of people's lives that
06:46I know, to have that kind of a guarantee.
06:50But I'm wondering, I'll ask Florence this again, Florence, in the context of a developing
06:57nation like Uganda, what would it mean to actually achieve the Sustainable Development
07:03Goals?
07:04Well, it would be awesome, it would be great, it would be amazing, but like I've said, the
07:12countries which are off track, and most of those which are off track are sadly on my
07:17continent, especially in sub-Saharan Africa.
07:20So the continent as a whole is just only halfway to achieving the SDGs.
07:26There are so many issues, we have fragile states, we have levels of poverty and conflict,
07:32you mentioned universal health coverage, it's something we are all rooting for, it would
07:36significantly contribute towards a long and healthy life for most Ugandans, as well as
07:41all Africans in general.
07:42And in South Africa, I think they've been pursuing UHC vigorously, many have been calling
07:47for UHC in Nigeria, but we also don't have it there.
07:51So an SDG 3 is very important, because it affects all other goals, especially in our
08:00nations.
08:01And sadly, we have weak health systems, and then there are so many economic, cultural,
08:08social, geographic-related barriers.
08:11So even if you have a hospital somewhere, even here in the area, you'd find that for
08:17someone to even access it, they would have to travel miles and miles, you know, it wouldn't
08:22be possible to get there.
08:23So you could even have a service, but then accessibility could be a problem.
08:28And then maybe accessibility is possible within, you know, towns, but still there is no hospital.
08:34So we still have quite a journey to go, but it would be amazing if we could achieve most
08:39of these goals, especially SDG 3 and SDG 5, women's empowerment, gender equality.
08:48Let me bring Olivia into the discussion here.
08:54The UN regularly reports on how well countries are doing in achieving the SDGs.
09:01Could you tell me a little bit about the 2020 report that came out, I think, back in May
09:06or something like that?
09:09What does the UN say about how we're doing five years into the pursuit of the Sustainable
09:15Development Goals?
09:16Yeah.
09:17So, like you were saying, this 2020 progress report came out a few months ago, and it unfortunately
09:25painted a pretty bleak picture, progress-wise, because the fact is that we're just not on
09:32track to meeting almost all of the Sustainable Development Goals.
09:37And I think it's important to point out what you mentioned earlier, Phil, that these are
09:41indeed very ambitious goals.
09:43I mean, essentially, the aim of the Sustainable Development Goals is to kind of tackle all
09:48of humanity's biggest crises.
09:53And that's just something that takes a lot of time and effort to achieve.
09:59And there just hasn't been enough effort put into ending some of these injustices like
10:06hunger and poverty and gender inequality and things like that.
10:12So yeah, each goal contains a set of targets, like you were mentioning, and a few of those
10:18targets were actually already supposed to have been met by 2020, this year.
10:24And so there are 21 of those, and only three of those have been met.
10:30So this year's report really kind of emphasized the fact that world leaders must step up action
10:37to have a chance of meeting some of these Sustainable Development Goals.
10:41And of course, it also focused quite heavily on the global health crisis, because the COVID-19
10:47pandemic is pretty much setting us back in terms of all goals.
10:52It's hindering progress on all goals, some goals more than others.
10:57But that is definitely a hard blow, and it's going to be felt for many years to come.
11:05So a big part of the SDGs have to do with alleviating poverty.
11:09That's goal number one.
11:11And of course, a lot of the other goals depend on improving people's economic lives, increasing
11:18the resources available for governments so that they can provide better health care or
11:23improve educational opportunities for people.
11:26So the pandemic essentially stopping global economies for national economies for a while,
11:35and then making it very hard to ramp them up, I would think does have a lot of potential
11:41to set us back here.
11:44I would emphasize that a lot of people, development experts, are saying that's why we have to
11:49double down and focus even more on achieving the SDGs, because it's the poorest people
11:57of the world that stand to suffer the most if we lose sight of them.
12:05Now, another potential cause of insufficient progress towards the SDGs is rapid population
12:12growth in some of the world's poorest countries.
12:15It's a fact that some of the poorest countries in the world, countries that score lowest
12:21on development indices, also tend to have some of the highest population growth rates.
12:27So that's the case made in a report released this September by Population Matters entitled
12:33Hitting the Targets, the Case for Ethical and Empowering Population Policies to Accelerate
12:40Progress Toward the Sustainable Development Goals.
12:43Olivia, could you briefly explain the argument made in that report?
12:49Yeah, so our report shows how rapid population growth represents a major hindrance to achieving
12:58the sustainable development goals.
13:00So it calls on governments to invest more in the ethical empowering population solutions
13:09that are already embedded within the SDGs, and to recognize the fact that empowering
13:19people to choose small families everywhere will rapidly accelerate our progress towards
13:25the goals.
13:28So a few examples I can give you.
13:31So on some of the SDGs, we're actually going backwards, which is pretty depressing, but
13:37it's true.
13:37So hunger, for example, we were making decent progress in reducing the number of people
13:47suffering from hunger and malnutrition.
13:51But in the past five to six years, the total number of people suffering from hunger and
13:57malnutrition has actually been increasing again.
14:00And that's in part due to the fact that the regions worst affected by famine are also
14:08the regions with the most rapid population growth.
14:12So you have the situation where you have population growth outstripping the progress that is
14:19being made to end hunger.
14:21And the same is the case with access to reproductive health care, for example.
14:33So a lot of developing countries are trying to end the unmet need for contraception, which
14:40means the number of women who want to avoid pregnancy, but who are not using any
14:47contraception.
14:47So they have an unmet need for contraception.
14:51And that number is also still increasing, unfortunately, even though proportionally
14:58we've made some small progress in making contraception more available to more women.
15:06The total number of women who need contraception but don't have it is still increasing,
15:12again, because the regions with the fastest population growth are some of the worst hit.
15:19So and that's an important point that you make several times in this report.
15:25It's good to have only 20% of a population rather than 30% suffering from malnutrition,
15:32let's say.
15:33But if a population is growing fast enough, even though you reduce the proportion, you
15:37can still have a larger total number of people suffering.
15:41And the goal is to end that suffering, not just to decrease the overall proportion.
15:50Let's talk somewhat specifically about how this can work, how a rapidly growing population
15:57can undermine an attempt to achieve one of these goals.
16:00So goal number four is ensure inclusive and equitable quality education for everyone.
16:11So and again, for some of our listeners who are in wealthy developed countries,
16:18you might not be used to thinking about it in these terms.
16:20But if you have large numbers of kids that you're trying to educate and relatively poor governments,
16:31it could just be the case that there aren't enough resources to go around.
16:35You can say to those governments, well, provide more resources.
16:40But they're also trying to do a lot of other things besides educate children.
16:45I know in my travels in India, this is going back a dozen years or so, I met many families
16:52where they really had to choose, okay, what's the one child or maybe two children in my family
17:02who I can give a good education to?
17:05Because to do that, we have to send them to private school, the public schools are filled
17:10with lots of children. And so I also met families that were only having two children,
17:19because they were worried about being able to educate them.
17:27Let's take another example, something like healthcare, how might rising populations make
17:32it harder to provide healthcare to all of a population?
17:40Well, I mean, it's kind of the same running to standstill situation where you have to
17:47basically rapidly expand your services in order to keep pace with the growing population.
17:58Because you have to ensure that you have enough doctors per everyone in your population,
18:05enough hospital beds, things like that. And of course, the more people you have,
18:10the more of that you need. And all of that costs money. And especially in developing
18:18countries, governments are quite restricted in terms of how much they can spend on different
18:23things. So you have, in many situations, you have not enough basically healthcare facilities for
18:34the number of people. That's why even the issue of goal nine comes in of infrastructure. So you
18:41have many children, a big student population who need to go to school, you have a lot of people
18:47who need to access health services. So there's the need for goal nine now. So you see yourself,
18:54you're not achieving goal three, you're not achieving goal four. And of course, goal nine
19:00would help, but you can't achieve goal nine. And that's why we are so abstract. And that's one of
19:05the worst goals actually right now in Africa, goal nine, goal three. So goal nine is build resilient
19:14infrastructure, promote inclusive and sustainable industrialization and foster innovation. So you
19:20want that sustainable infrastructure, but there's a conflict between adding a lot more people quickly
19:27and having a genuinely sustainable infrastructure. Exactly, exactly. So what is that problem?
19:34So Florence, I want to read you a quote. This comes from a Population Matters report
19:41and get your reaction to this. The report quotes Goodall Gondwe, Malawi's Minister of Finance. He
19:48says, our high population is exerting a lot of pressure on our economy. As a country, we have
19:55made tremendous gains over the years, but the impact is not reflected on our economy because
20:01the gains have been dissipated by population growth. So how representative is that statement
20:07of views among Africa's leaders? Do most African leaders see rapid population growth as a problem,
20:14or do some perhaps see it as a sign of strength of their societies?
20:19Oh, well, it's a yes and no, but I'll lean mostly on yes. Most governments really consider fertility
20:26to be too high and they consider most of their countries to have a high population growth rate.
20:32I mean, look at my country, Uganda. We are always in between 3, 3.2%, 3.5% per annum.
20:39And if you know about population studies, you know that if you're at above 3%, you're going to
20:46double your population after every 20 to 25 years. That's right. Compared to countries
20:52now like the UK, which will double its population like in over 100 years.
20:59So yes, they're not blinded by the fact that the population is growing and it's hindering
21:05development on all fronts, socially, economically. So almost all of the governments want to lower
21:12population growth as well as the fertility. And if you look at the policies, I looked at the policies,
21:17you know, for the countries, for the UN, UNDESA, and this is where we are. Only actually one African
21:24country, I believe, wants to raise its population and that's Gabon, which is at around 2 million
21:30people. But for most, they have policies, good family planning programs. The only problem is,
21:42of course, now, of course, implementation. But some countries are really, they need this. Only
21:50a few like Botswana, like, oh, let's maintain our policies as they are. Botswana has 2 million people,
21:54which is understandable. But you see, they are maintaining, they're not saying, oh, let's increase.
21:58They know, they know really that this is a problem. And when I went to Nigeria one time last
22:04year, when I was working with population matters, I met the peers for the environment in Lagos,
22:09which has a huge population for a city. And the minister was like, population growth is a huge
22:17problem. It's one of the things setting everything back. So, when you see an environmental minister
22:24admitting that this is an issue, yeah, it's true. There is a problem. Yeah. And again, for those
22:32living in the developed world, they might not realize how rapidly some of these countries are
22:39growing. I was looking at some figures yesterday getting ready for this program
22:45under the medium, most likely variant of population projection. Nigeria's projected to
22:52increase from, I think, a little over 200 million today to something like 700 million by 2100.
23:01That is just staggering growth. And there's good evidence that even currently larger families
23:10in Nigeria find it harder to feed all their children than smaller families. I saw a study
23:15saying that recently. So, it's good to hear that governments see this as an issue.
23:24So, let me ask then, if governments see it as an issue for the most part,
23:30and if people in Africa see it as an issue, why has Africa lagged?
23:38Generalizing here, why is Africa lagged in terms of reducing fertility levels?
23:46Yeah, well, we are lagging. Of course, some countries are making progress, especially in
23:51North Africa, countries like Egypt, even if the population is expanding and they're worried,
23:57they're upping their game on family planning, but at least they are below, you know,
24:02intermediary fertility. They're now approaching the lower fertility. We are lagging because, well,
24:09in North America, in Europe, as well as, well, now Asia, you guys had the experience of the
24:17industrial revolution. Like, you went through that process, of course, years and years back.
24:22And by like the 70s, most of, you know, the developed world, the high-income countries
24:27had reduced their fertility to, you know, replacement level 2.1, you know, the point
24:35at which someone can replace themselves, you know, give birth and stuff like that.
24:39For us, our transition started a bit too late, by the way, like almost in the 80s,
24:46most African countries, especially sub-Saharan Africa, in the late 80s, and it just stalled
24:53thereafter. And of course, there are so many reasons why this is. Most countries, actually,
24:59their contraceptive prevalence rate is below 40%. I think that the highest could be in Morocco,
25:08which is about, you know, South Africa, which is about 70%, which is like on course with other
25:14developed nations. But for most countries, it's really so low. And then, of course, we have social
25:22issues, like culture. People believe that it's their right to have children, you know,
25:29like they were brought on earth to be child bearers and child-rearers. It is something
25:36we grow up with. It is impounded into our minds. It's ingrained. So even women, like you'd be
25:42surprised, women defend this, you know, because it's our culture. And if you don't want to do
25:47this, you're an African, you're not African, you know. And of course, we marry early, you know,
25:54as early as 13, 14. Children are sent into marriages and there's no delay. People do not
26:02postpone childbearing, you know. So even childbearing starts much earlier. So this is
26:08why we are not really fighting this, because if a child starts childbearing at 12, 13, as is the
26:13case now, some at 10. I don't know, recently someone just told me that there's a child who
26:17gave birth at 10. So we are starting early, early childbirth, early marriages. We have cultures,
26:24we have male dominance, like hello, we are in patriarchal societies, and men who want to have
26:31children to prove that they can. And then we have polygamy. So you find a man having four, five,
26:37six, I don't know how many wives, and they're all competing to give him children. And of course,
26:42there's this silly notion of having the male child. That is crazy, because you find a woman has
26:51one girl, two girls, three girls, and they're looking for a boy, trust me, because if they
26:55don't find a boy, a man is going to, you know, go out and get another woman, because hello,
27:00polygamy, and of course, it favors the men, you know. Once a woman came out in Kenya, who was
27:05marrying two men, and everyone was like, oh, how is this even possible? So you see that gender
27:11inequality also plays a big, big role in this. So yes, we are still stuck there. Of course,
27:18I don't know if I should go into religion, because that's also kind of a thorn.
27:23Well, I think religion is an important factor in these things. How does religion
27:30impact population policies? Oh, my God, it's pretentious. Trust me. First of all, in Uganda,
27:37we have a first lady who thinks she's closer to God than the rest of humanity and the rest of us.
27:46We have some such leaders. No, honestly, we've been making progress. But you find that sometimes
27:52religion just comes out, and people are like, okay. We had a good policy, like people came out,
28:00even the Minister of Health launched sexuality education to be in school, include this and this.
28:05And then I think she got a vision from God telling her, no, no, no, tell them, even after the
28:11launching, like, no, we're not turning this into, you know, policy. We are not doing this. Let our
28:15children abstain. Like, she's detaching herself from the reality in the country whereby
28:22it's a country which is below, you know, about almost 60% are below 17 years of age in my own
28:28district, actually, 60% and other districts. Most of our people are below 17 years of age,
28:35and they start childbearing much earlier. There is early marriage, like Uganda is one of the high,
28:42you know, high burden countries when it comes to child marriages, number 16. So we are up there.
28:47So someone detaching themselves from this reality of what's happening and saying, oh,
28:52you know, we have to be godly. We have to abstain until marriage.
28:57So is this First Lady Christian or a Muslim? She's Christian.
29:02She's a Christian. She's a Christian.
29:05If she could make most Ugandans Christians, trust me, she would. But of course, we have been
29:09Muslims and other religions, but of course, Christianity. Yeah. So yes, we're in a problem.
29:18I wonder if there are, are there religious leaders on the continent, though, who are helpful on this
29:25issue? Because I know, around the world, it's been something of a mixed bag. I know the Catholic
29:30Church has often, especially the hierarchy has stood in the way of contraception availability.
29:38But there have been individual leaders, and especially parish priests, who have said, no,
29:45this, this is important to improving people's lives. We, we want them to have contraception.
29:51Is it similar in Africa? Do you have a mix of religious leaders?
29:55Actually, we do have a mix, and it's growing, except that now those ones, they are shut down.
29:59And even you can see, like, I know there was a time when religious leaders just came out
30:05and said that population is a problem, women should use this. And you can see people just
30:10even attacking the guy, you see. So, like, I've told you, we are restricted by our cultures,
30:16by our strong beliefs, like, no, no, this is how it's supposed to be. And like, I've told you,
30:19I've been married for what, now going to five years, and people want me to have a baby. They're
30:24like, are you African? Are you sure you're fertile? Like, for Ugandans, like, you get into marriage
30:31the first year, like, show us the evidence. Where is the child? You know, where is the baby? You are
30:37not an African woman. Like, they'll accuse you, they'll tell you that. Strangers, actually,
30:43on Facebook, because my Facebook is open, but everyone is just concerned about your life. And,
30:46you know, of course, the achievement is what? A baby, child. And then someone, even a journalist
30:53one time, even a woman, was writing in a national paper, a national daily, asking for, oh, what
30:59would your plan be if nobody marries you? Like, marriage is the end of it all, you know? So, yes,
31:05we have early marriages, early childbearing, early that, and all that. So, I hope the voices,
31:11yeah, the loud voices come out much louder, the good voices.
31:15And, but it sounds like in many places, some of these ideas are changing. And I know, for instance,
31:23to take one of the issues you raised, child marriage, I mean, the UN has stated very
31:27forcefully that child marriage is a human rights violation, that people, women, it's mostly women
31:36who get married younger than 18, that that really undermines women's opportunity to live their own
31:47women's opportunity to live their own lives and to live a good life. And at least formally,
31:55the nations of the world have signed on to that. So, and I've heard that there's been some progress
32:03in reducing that. Yeah, there has been some progress, but it's still high. Because if you
32:09find a country like Niger, which has a high fertility by about seven children per woman,
32:15like child marriage is about what, 70%? That is really high. Uganda, about 40%. Most countries,
32:24they are like 50%, 60% child marriages, they're still high. And this COVID era, you've talked
32:30of COVID, it is increasing it. Trust me, many districts in Uganda, they're sending in reports,
32:37young girls married off, young girls, there's a lot of teenage pregnancy, by the way, they think,
32:42oh my God, there's many girls, about 4,000 are pregnant, about this many. So I'm not seeing
32:49girls going back to school after COVID, you know, they want to open schools. That's worrisome. It's
32:56not going to happen, you know. And there was a time actually, even the president recently, the
33:00president really has tried like most of any in Uganda to say, okay, family planning, supporting
33:05and everything. But then sometimes he said contradicting statements, like recently during
33:09COVID, he was like, okay, well, they were telling him that girls are getting pregnant, stuck home,
33:14you know, being raped by their parents, by their friends, by relatives and everything,
33:19because it's really a huge issue, defilement, which I call rape. The president just said, well,
33:25COVID is killing them, but at least pregnancy won't kill them. He forgot that we have a high
33:31maternal mortality rate in that country. And it's mostly the young girls who are dying, you know,
33:37between 15 and 19. Let's bring the focus back a little bit onto the SDGs.
33:45The SDGs take a sort of an indirect approach to population growth. Sustainable Development
33:51Goal 3, ensuring healthy lives, and Goal 5, achieve gender equality, both set specific
33:58goals around greater contraceptive ability. One of the goals under SDG 3 is ensure universal access
34:08to sexual and reproductive health care services, including for family planning. And one of the
34:14targets under Goal 5, gender equality, is ensure universal access to sexual and reproductive health
34:22and reproductive rights. So let me bring Olivia back into the discussion here. Olivia,
34:29is the problem that these targets have not been diligently enough pursued, or do they need to be
34:36supplemented in some way? Do we need further targets or just more resources to meet the
34:42targets that have been set? The targets that have been set are good. They're already really
34:47ambitious. And if we were to meet them, that would be amazing. The real issue is much too
34:57slow progress. And that's because, mainly because of lack of investment. So another UN report came
35:05out this year, showing how much money is needed, basically, to end the worst gender inequalities.
35:15And particularly, they state the three overarching aims, which they call the three zeros. So they
35:23want to achieve zero preventable maternal mortality, zero unmet need for contraception,
35:30and zero gender-based violence, including harmful practices like female genital mutilation.
35:37And they've shown that all that together would cost around 264 billion US dollars, which sounds
35:45like a lot of money. But if you think about how much everyone invests in the military,
35:53for example, every year, it's really only a fraction of that. And currently, the funding
36:02gap between what has already been pledged by world leaders to help achieve these goals,
36:08and what is still needed, is 222 billion. So you can see that that's really where the problem lies.
36:18These issues have not been taken seriously enough, and there's just not enough investment.
36:23So let me press a little on that particular issue. Because again, for a lot of these goals,
36:31we're talking about helping relatively poor countries that lack the resources to achieve
36:37them. And so part of the issue here is increased better funding from the developed world to help
36:45the developing nations achieve these goals. But part of the issue, too, seems to be
36:52sometimes a lack of commitment within developing nations themselves toward the goals.
36:58It could be the case, for instance, that something like ending early child marriage
37:05is more, not so much a function of proper funding, but the willingness, the desire of people in the
37:13society to end that. So what's your sense of the overall balance of responsibility here in terms of
37:23developed nations and developing nations to really achieve these goals?
37:29Well, I think everyone needs to be involved. And as you were saying, a lot of the change that
37:39is needed can only be brought about through massive cultural change and a shift in traditional
37:47norms and things like that. And yes, there are, of course, a lot of governments that are
37:53resistant to that kind of thing. But as Florence was saying, so many governments
38:00in developing countries now recognize rapid population growth as a major
38:05threat to their nation's stability and to their economic prospects. The World Bank this year said
38:13that global poverty is not going to decrease in 2021. They already know this. They've already
38:22forecast this because there are so many countries where population growth is outstripping economic
38:29growth. And this worries governments. Of course, they want a prosperous, healthy nation. So
38:38a lot of it really is just insufficient funding. And of course, in some countries, you have quite
38:47a lot of corruption as well, where money goes into the wrong pockets. But the fact that there's
38:54such a massive funding gap, for example, just for ending the worst gender inequalities shows that
39:01governments in the Global North really need to do more to help lower-income countries make some
39:08more progress. So let me ask a somewhat different question. Do we need a new and 18th sustainable
39:18development goal, something along the lines of stabilize the global human population,
39:25or maybe even reduce national populations to sustainable levels? In other words, a goal that
39:32makes ending or reversing population growth an explicit goal. Again, the current sustainable
39:40development goals talk indirectly about this because they talk about providing the contraception
39:47and the improved status for women and improved education for women, all of which are essential
39:54to lowering fertility rates. But nowhere do they say we need to stabilize the global population.
40:02Do we need an explicit commitment to that to actually achieve these goals?
40:09Yeah, I mean, so I would argue that it might have been helpful to have that 18th
40:13sustainable development goal that specifically states we need a sustainable global population.
40:20But at this stage, I mean, there's no way we can make that happen. The SDGs are already,
40:27you know, set in stone, and there's only two years, there's only 10 years left to meet them.
40:32So at this stage, adding that goal would not be particularly helpful. And as you were saying,
40:37the key recipe for ending population growth is already embedded in the SDGs.
40:43And what would be helpful would be for world leaders to recognize all of these in the context
40:51of the global population and how further kind of concerted efforts to make progress on on
41:01these key goals, especially ending poverty, achieving gender equality, improving access
41:10to health care, things like that. And education, of course, education is really important,
41:15because so many girls are out of school. And there are so many studies that show that
41:21basically the number of years a woman spends in education is inversely correlated with how
41:27many children she ends up having over the course of her life. So the more educational woman gets,
41:32the more opportunities she has, and the less she will be kind of bound to the home,
41:37looking after lots of kids. So I think that might be what's what's missing from the goals is that
41:46the recognition that all of these things are connected to the overarching population picture,
41:55and that recognizing that these ethical, empowering population solutions
42:01basically benefit everyone everywhere and also help fix our biggest environmental issues.
42:10I think there needs to be greater global recognition of that, especially among governments.
42:15So something like increasing education for girls is really a win across the board.
42:22I mean, you know, more education in itself is a good thing. It empowers girls as they grow up to
42:30take a stronger role within society, have more economic opportunities. So even before you get
42:38to the fertility lowering aspect of it, there's a great argument for increasing resources,
42:45and simply an equality argument. I mean, girls deserve the same opportunities as boys
42:50to become educated. But it's also true, there's good evidence, that by improving education,
42:58as you say, fertility rates can come down. That's why we call them win-win solutions.
43:07Yeah, it's a win-win solution. And you know, with education, you know, like the woman has the agency,
43:12really, but she has always been denied. She has the autonomy. She has the ability to take care of
43:17her child. Now, she's going to ensure that even if she has a child, the child is well cared for.
43:22They have nutrition, good nutrition, and they are likely to send their children to school,
43:27if they're educated, they see that importance. So if we could provide all of these simultaneously,
43:33you know, I feel like we could really hit the goals. Like at the same time, give them education,
43:39at the same time, give them contraceptives, like let everything be there. And you know,
43:45the policy that we've come up with right now, like increasing, you know, school education years,
43:49for example, like in Africa, most countries you find like school school years is just what,
43:55four years for some, it's that little, some is three point something, five. I think the highest
43:59one is in Morocco, which has 10 years. So yeah, education is very, very important for me. It
44:06really stands out. Let me make a little bit of a switch here. The sustainable development goals
44:15are not just development goals, they're supposed to be sustainable development goals. So SDG 11,
44:22for example, is focused on making cities environmentally sustainable. SDG 12 is ensure
44:30sustainable consumption and production patterns. And SDG 13 commits nations to urgent action to
44:38combat climate change. And then finally, the 14th and 15th sustainable development goals
44:44commit the nations of the world to halting global biodiversity loss on land and in the ocean.
44:51Yet, according to the most recent UN progress report, we're actually moving further away from
44:57these environmental sustainable development goals. So while the sort of human-centered poverty
45:04education, those kinds of goals, the progress is mixed and too slow. With the environmental goals,
45:10it's very clear. It's not that we're not making progress, we're moving backwards.
45:16Um, why is that? And what role do increasing populations around the world play in this
45:23particular failure? You rightly pointed out that we're doing abysmally on the environmental goals.
45:31And the UN body in charge of biodiversity, the Convention on Biological Diversity,
45:39um, set targets to basically end the loss of biodiversity by 2020. Um, so this year, they,
45:51they, um, came out with the report basically to kind of show how we've done. And predictably,
45:57not a single one of the targets was met. And that's essentially because conservation efforts
46:06fail to tackle the two fundamental root drivers of biodiversity loss. And those are, um,
46:16habitat destruction, basically, and over-exploitation. And those in turn are
46:21fueled by our growing numbers and by our consumption patterns. So the only way we
46:30can put an end to, um, the loss of nature is by, both by, um, ending population growth,
46:39stabilizing our population, and, um, by achieving sustainable consumption patterns worldwide. And
46:47that means, unfortunately for us in the global north, that we need to tighten our belts quite
46:52considerably. Um, because consumption is only forecast to continue increasing, again, in part
47:01because of population growth, but also because hundreds of millions of people, um, in low-income
47:07countries are escaping poverty, which is a really good thing. Um, and in order to, um, facilitate
47:16their, uh, increase in consumption, we really need to cut back on over-consumption in wealthy
47:22countries like Western Europe and North America. Now, I hear that a lot from environmentalists,
47:30um, and I'm an environmentalist myself. Uh, I, I don't typically see great efforts among
47:37my friends to, to actually do that. And, you know, even if I do see it in, in a few cases,
47:44among a few people, uh, our economies aren't built around less consumption. Our economies are,
47:50are built around more consumption. So, um, so speaking a little more generally now, I mean,
47:57the sustainable development goals seek to make greater resources available to people around the
48:02world, especially poor people. So realistically, if we want the kind of societies that the SDGs
48:09point to, uh, aren't we going to need a much smaller human population in the future? So in
48:15other words, a world with no poverty, that's also ecologically sustainable, um, stabilizing the
48:22population doesn't look like it's going to be enough to achieve that. Yeah. Well, I, ideally,
48:28I mean, that's the long-term goal. It's just that that takes many generations to take in, to come
48:32into effect. So what we want to aim for is to achieve a global fertility rate of below replacement
48:41level. And the replacement level is 2.1 kids per women. So, um, once every everywhere, so currently
48:49we're about 2.4 globally. Once we reach below that replacement level, it'll take a few more
48:58decades, probably generations before our population will actually begin to contract.
49:03Um, that's just because of demographic momentum. That's, that's kind of the technical term to
49:09explain why it takes so long for, for population changes to come into effect. So it's, I mean,
49:15it's definitely something we should be aspiring to, but, but we also need to be realistic. I mean,
49:21we can't like expect to have our population in like the next 50 years, for example. Um, it's all
49:27kind of, you know, long-term changes that we're talking about here. And, and I hope that, you
49:32know, maybe in, in 200 years time, um, our population size will be, um, you know, smaller
49:39than it is now. Um, and that we will have gotten there through these, you know, empowering
49:45positive solutions, but they take a long time to come into effect.
49:51So again, I mean, for me that that's one more reason for why, uh, we should have an SDG about
49:58stabilizing or reducing the global human population. Now, I guess the SDGs are designed
50:06to be enacted by 2030. And so with population momentum, um, uh, really, even if you, you cut
50:14fertility back much below, uh, uh, replacement rate, you would still have a certain amount of
50:20population growth, uh, baked into the global population. Um, let me, uh, let me touch on
50:28another somewhat controversial aspect to this. Uh, the SDGs talk, uh, very explicitly about
50:38the need to improve contraception access, uh, women's rights, women, uh, girls' education,
50:44et cetera, which we think is, are, are really the keys to, to reducing fertility. Um,
50:52but as Florence was saying earlier in, in our discussion, uh, we've also got in many countries,
50:58this idea that big families are, are inherently a good thing. Um, do we also need, in addition to
51:07the rights that the SDGs talk about, uh, do we need more propaganda
51:12in different parts of the world for smaller populations? Do we need, um, government leaders
51:19coming out and, and saying, have a smaller family for, for Uganda, for instance, Florence,
51:26what's your sense of that? Yeah, I think it's important to talk about, you know, population
51:32has already, you know, talked about, you know, the effect on the environment, which we are seeing,
51:37which is happening in our country. So leaders need to come out more often and encourage,
51:43of course, not coerce, you see, and that's where the problem is. That's where people are scared,
51:48like, okay, anything to do with public policy, it's highly divisive. Like people are thinking
51:53you want to interfere in people's reproductive affairs. So how you say it's just really giving
51:58people that information and, you know, making sure that they make an informed choice. For example,
52:04like I said, the first lady is limiting us, you know, getting access to shorter education in
52:09schools. Really? That's wrong. I feel like a girl should grow up knowing, you know,
52:16what her life is going to be like from the minute she's born, you know, so that she knows
52:20she can decide. They just need to give us all the information and tell us this is what's there. This
52:26is what's necessary. This is what's happening. Some people now can't even understand, you know.
52:30So population affects the environment? Really? How? So population affects this? Really? How?
52:34It does affect poverty? Like we need to understand all the connections right from the start and then
52:41we can make informed choices. For example, like I wasn't so much enlightened on, you know, the
52:47environment until I started really reporting, you know, as a journalist and I saw the interconnectedness.
52:54I went all across the country and I saw what was happening. Like we don't really have this
52:59exposure from when we are really much younger and we can make decisions and grow up and say,
53:04oh wow, this is what's happening. People need to know. Information is power. And trust me,
53:09when people have this information and they have everything else, the services, the contraceptives,
53:13people are always going to choose that. And this will lead to choose what to have smaller families
53:18as long as you tell them this is what's happening. Empower them. And like Olivia already said,
53:22educated women, they are working. They're going to choose to delay marriage. They're going to
53:30postpone birth. It's happening in most Asian countries. It can happen in Africa.
53:36So Florence, I'm curious. Was there a particular story that you reported on
53:42where it really taught you the importance of population issues
53:49to improving people's lives? Is there a particular story that you did that stands
53:56out as you think about that? One time I went to northern Uganda and there was this gentleman
54:03and he has about four women and it's like another one is coming. And you look at the line of
54:09children and you look at the environment. Of course, you know, we survive with what we have,
54:15but it's not a life I wish for a child to have. You know, it's a life I've seen even while growing
54:21up. But you see women just competing like, oh, this one, this one has now a son. Oh, this one
54:30is about to give me a boy. Now this one is about, and then they'll be like, yeah, I have three,
54:36but the other one has five. You know, so there are so many issues. And then you report about,
54:42I wrote in one time about a story, you know, in a health center whereby health workers
54:46are using torches. And of course there are so many people coming to the hospitals. So
54:51like accessibility, like when you go to the rural areas, it's really horrible. And of course,
54:57most of the country is rural. So there are lots of rural areas to go to. So you can imagine
55:04it's problematic. And for me, I feel like population growth is really riding this,
55:09especially for us back home, because I can't say that, you know, consumption is
55:12very much a big problem back there. It's mostly population growth. And even the leaders agree.
55:18And even right now, even they're agreeing to the fact that it's affecting the environment,
55:22at least there was a report which came out in about 2015, where they said about 40% is attributed
55:28to population growth, environmental degradation. So we are seeing all this coming out. Yeah. I feel
55:35like change is necessary. It will come, but it's taking its time, sadly. Yeah. But it's possible.
55:44Most Ugandan women are coming up. There's lots of Florence's out there in that country.
55:49That's good to know.
55:50They need opportunities. They need the opportunities. Most of them need to be
55:54uprooted out of that, but we'll get there. Yeah.
55:58Very important, very important point, you know, for my fellow American citizens,
56:04most of whom have never seen or thought about the Sustainable Development Goals,
56:09I'd really encourage you to take a look at some of the links we're providing with this story
56:17and familiarize yourself with them. There are actually quite a few where you can look at them
56:22and say, as Florence just said, the United States has some work to do to fully achieve these targets
56:29as well. Well, I would like to thank both of you, Florence and Olivia, for being on the show today.
56:37I hope you'll be willing to come back soon.
56:42Definitely. Thanks for having us.
56:44Yeah, this has been amazing. Yeah. Thanks for having us.