EarthX Website: https://earthxmedia.com/
Talking with the founder of the influential approach to limit human numbers in order to help humanity stay within the boundaries for safe use of the biosphere.
About The Population Factor:
A series of key conversations examining the connection between our planet’s growing population & related issues. Expect to be educated on a range of topics including climate change, wildlife preservation, immigration policy & consumption patterns.
EarthX
Love Our Planet.
The Official Network of Earth Day.
About Us:
At EarthX, we believe our planet is a pretty special place. The people, landscapes, and critters are likely unique to the entire universe, so we consider ourselves lucky to be here. We are committed to protecting the environment by inspiring conservation and sustainability, and our programming along with our range of expert hosts support this mission. We’re glad you’re with us.
EarthX is a media company dedicated to inspiring people to care about the planet. We take an omni channel approach to reach audiences of every age through its robust 24/7 linear channel distributed across cable and FAST outlets, along with dynamic, solution oriented short form content on social and digital platforms. EarthX is home to original series, documentaries and snackable content that offer sustainable solutions to environmental challenges. EarthX is the only network that delivers entertaining and inspiring topics that impact and inspire our lives on climate and sustainability.
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Talking with the founder of the influential approach to limit human numbers in order to help humanity stay within the boundaries for safe use of the biosphere.
About The Population Factor:
A series of key conversations examining the connection between our planet’s growing population & related issues. Expect to be educated on a range of topics including climate change, wildlife preservation, immigration policy & consumption patterns.
EarthX
Love Our Planet.
The Official Network of Earth Day.
About Us:
At EarthX, we believe our planet is a pretty special place. The people, landscapes, and critters are likely unique to the entire universe, so we consider ourselves lucky to be here. We are committed to protecting the environment by inspiring conservation and sustainability, and our programming along with our range of expert hosts support this mission. We’re glad you’re with us.
EarthX is a media company dedicated to inspiring people to care about the planet. We take an omni channel approach to reach audiences of every age through its robust 24/7 linear channel distributed across cable and FAST outlets, along with dynamic, solution oriented short form content on social and digital platforms. EarthX is home to original series, documentaries and snackable content that offer sustainable solutions to environmental challenges. EarthX is the only network that delivers entertaining and inspiring topics that impact and inspire our lives on climate and sustainability.
EarthX Website: https://earthxmedia.com/
Follow Us:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/earthxmedia/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/earthxmedia
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EarthXMedia/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@earthxmedia
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@EarthXMedia
How to watch:
United States:
- Spectrum
- AT&T U-verse (1267)
- DIRECTV (267)
- Philo
- FuboTV
- Plex
- Fire TV
#EarthDay #Environment #Sustainability #Ecofriendly #Conservation #EarthX
Category
📺
TVTranscript
00:00Today on The Population Factor, we ask how limiting human numbers can help humanity stay
00:06within the safe planetary boundaries for use of the biosphere.
00:11Our guest is Karen Higgs, author of Collision Course, Endless Growth on a Finite Planet.
00:30The planetary boundaries framework is an interesting new way to think about creating sustainable
00:55societies, planetary boundaries, and human limits.
00:59Today on The Population Factor, we discuss how these might be related.
01:05Our guest is Karen Higgs.
01:07She's the author of Collision Course, Endless Growth on a Finite Planet.
01:12Karen, welcome to The Population Factor.
01:16Thank you, Phil.
01:17Great to be here.
01:18It's great to have you.
01:19So, you have written quite a bit about sustainability, about growth issues, about the ideologies
01:25connected with economics.
01:27You've really written on a wide variety of things, but today on our show, we brought
01:33you on to talk specifically about the planetary boundaries approach and how human numbers
01:39fit into that whole question.
01:42So, can we start, for a start, could you explain the planetary boundaries framework?
01:48Okay, yes.
01:50So, there is a team of scientists led by Will Steffen, who's an Australian climate scientist,
01:58and Johan Rockström, who's a Swede, I believe.
02:01They have been working on figuring out what are the physical limits of the Earth system.
02:08What can't we afford to breach?
02:12The things that they're most worried about are the phosphorus and nitrogen contamination
02:20flux that has gone, it's mostly due to our agricultural methods.
02:25So, they see that and the species loss, you know, the natural attrition as being the two
02:34things that we're already in very dangerous territory.
02:37So, what you're saying is one of these planetary boundaries is the amount of phosphorus that
02:44is building up in ecosystems.
02:47Another is our ability to retain biodiversity.
02:51I think altogether, there's nine planetary boundaries, correct?
02:56Yes.
02:57Climate change is one of them?
02:59Yes, but it's not just phosphorus.
03:01Nitrogen is probably even more serious.
03:03Right.
03:04Anyway, yes.
03:06This is where they were up to in 2015, but I've spoken to Will and he says climate should
03:11also be in there with the top as a situation already in danger.
03:18I mean, it's pretty obvious if you were in Northwest Northern America or Southeast Australia
03:26in recent times, you know, it's clear that we've reached a level of climate change that
03:32is causing just incredible, incredible extremes.
03:37So we have a climate change issue.
03:41Let's talk about that in terms of boundaries.
03:44What does it mean to say we have a planetary boundary around climate change?
03:49Okay.
03:51So these scientists have worked a lot looking at what will happen if we go on in the direction
03:58that we're going.
04:00And we are already at a stage where we have an enormous amount of carbon dioxide, methane
04:09and some other greenhouse gases as well in the atmosphere already.
04:14And unfortunately, despite all the good intentions, it keeps climbing.
04:20It's still going up.
04:21Look, nobody knows where the actual boundary is.
04:25Nobody knows where we're actually going to have something cataclysmic happen.
04:30But we do know that we are going, heading in the wrong direction and we're going, we're
04:34still going much too fast in the wrong direction.
04:37So they set the planetary boundary for the amount of acceptable carbon in the atmosphere
04:43at between 350 and 450 parts per million.
04:48And so I take it the idea is somewhere within there, if we keep increasing and we're about
04:54at 415 right now, somewhere in there, we could pass a point where the changes to the
05:03climate will become threatening to human well-being.
05:08That's the boundary idea.
05:09That's the boundary idea.
05:12But it's not just human well-being, I think, as far as these people are concerned.
05:17They are looking at, at what point will the Earth system break down?
05:21So it's, it's the whole shebang, if you like, it's us and our entire natural environment.
05:28So to stay on the issue of climate for a moment, we could also be stressing that, that system
05:35so much that we could start in process irreversible declines or, or feedback mechanisms so that
05:44no matter what we do, things could keep, keep getting worse.
05:48So again, the idea is we don't know exactly where that boundary is, but there's a sort
05:53of a safe operating space.
05:55And if we're smart, we don't, we don't necessarily want to go beyond that.
05:59Yes.
06:00The thing is, Stefan and Rockstrom and co, they believe that we're already past the safe
06:07operating space as far as nitrogen phosphorus flux goes, and as far as species loss goes.
06:13And I think they're on the verge of saying as far as climate goes.
06:17And the fourth big one is land system, which is clearing, clearing the forests, draining
06:23the wetlands, all that stuff.
06:25And it's very important to remember that, that as you said, there are tipping points.
06:32So there will be a point, you know, people are worried about the frozen methane in the,
06:39in the Arctic Ocean and off the Siberian coast.
06:42And it's also pretty clear that, that, that the Greenland ice, ice sheet and parts of
06:49West Antarctica are melting at an ever increasing rate.
06:55And that this means, well, this is really bad luck, Sydney, bad luck, New York.
07:01So okay, we've got these planetary boundaries, climate change, stratospheric ozone, land
07:06clearance, biodiversity, nitrogen phosphorus systems.
07:11We want to stay within that.
07:13Now my question is, how does population relate to the planetary boundaries?
07:20Okay, so as far as the boundaries go, there are some areas where the population is a pressure
07:27on them.
07:28And one of them is the land system, you know, their land clearing and species.
07:34But then there are others where really it's clearly our affluent rich world that has,
07:39that is, that is threatening.
07:40So if you're looking at climate, we are the, we are the major emitters.
07:46And even though China, they, they always say that China, well, the opponents of this view
07:52say that China is, China is now emitting more than anybody else.
07:57But it's also got a lot more people than anybody else.
08:01And you can't speak of human numbers in isolation.
08:04I would say that affluence is as large or larger.
08:09Because if you have a situation where we have massive globalised trade, and there's a lot
08:16of research being done to show that it is our numbers, which are not the ones that are
08:22going out of control, except in Australia, that our numbers are the real problem.
08:29Because it is, every one of us is, I don't know, I read somewhere 68 people in Bangladesh
08:34use about the same amount as an Australian.
08:36So you're saying numbers in the developed world, even if they're not growing, they can
08:41still be more of an issue than numbers in the developing world.
08:46Well, yeah, look, they can be at least as much of an issue or more.
08:52I mean, I also, it's also very clear that in certain parts of the world, where people
08:59have lived just off the local land, I know there are parts of Africa and certainly parts
09:03of Latin America, where numbers are part of the problem.
09:09But in a way, if these countries with the massive population growth were not trying
09:15to provide all this stuff for us, things would be a great deal better.
09:24There's one lot of researchers have shown that about 40% of all species lost is due
09:31to what we use, like it's our palm oil, our timber, our stuff.
09:38But whether we're talking about the developed world or the developing world, there are many
09:42more people living in all these countries than there were 100 years ago.
09:46So in a sense, I think you might be setting up a false dichotomy there.
09:51It's per capita consumption or it's population.
09:54I mean, really looking at most societies, we have a lot more people and we're consuming
10:00at a higher per capita level.
10:02Yep.
10:03Look, I'm not suggesting it's either or, Phil.
10:06I'm not saying it's one thing or the other at all.
10:09What I am saying is, I am not keen to talk about population in isolation from the affluence,
10:18the consumption factor, because it is very clear that we must have some kind of redistribution.
10:25But we can't have nearly 8 billion people all wanting to live the way you do in America
10:31or we do in Australia.
10:32We can't have that.
10:33It will not work.
10:34The boundaries are already breached in some cases.
10:38So we can't have the whole world chasing to become like America or Australia.
10:44Must not be.
10:45Because it is, well, finite planet.
10:50This planetary boundaries approach has become very popular among researchers and it's even
10:57being used now somewhat to formulate policy and talk about policy choices.
11:02One thing we haven't mentioned yet about the connection between planetary boundaries and
11:08human numbers is reducing human numbers seems like a good way to take action to help with
11:15all the planetary boundaries.
11:17In other words, if you have fewer people, everything else being equal, you're going
11:21to have less greenhouse gas emissions.
11:24But you're also going to need to convert less habitat to feed people.
11:29And that's always seemed to me a particularly important point that often gets lost in these
11:34discussions.
11:35Look, yes, I certainly agree with that.
11:38I agree that.
11:41Too many people is already the case.
11:43And I am very, very much in favour of women and girls being educated, having free access
11:52to education and free access to family planning measures.
11:57I noticed that even the UN doesn't include this in its sustainable development goals.
12:03There's nothing about family planning, which seems to me to be quite wrong, you know, a
12:08huge gap in what should be being done.
12:12So I think we shouldn't ever lose track of the of the fact that it is too many people
12:18and too much stuff.
12:20So it's the people using the stuff, you know, it's not the people who live there or there
12:27or there so much as us and the amount of stuff we use.
12:32So I think the affluence has got to go to, you know, even if you can reduce the population,
12:36we have to change.
12:38We have to free ourselves.
12:40I have no idea how, Phil, but we have to free ourselves from the consumer economy where
12:46production is based not on basic human need, what we all need.
12:50You know, we all need material security.
12:53That's a given.
12:55But the stuff, the production, it's a whole system of production and consumption.
13:00So I'm a little worried, Karen, that you tell me you don't see how we can get past this
13:05because I know that you've spent a lot of time sort of studying the ideology behind
13:11pro-growth economics.
13:14In your book, Collision Course, you talk quite a bit about how advertising has been put to
13:19use to sort of gin up extra consumption.
13:23And you tell a very interesting story about that.
13:27So when an expert like you tells me, well, I don't know how we can get off that train.
13:32Now I'm really starting to get worried.
13:35I'm not here to worry you, but I'm one of Greta Thunberg's gang, you know, people who
13:40say we are in an emergency.
13:42It is now.
13:43And every time people say, oh, we'll do this or we'll do that or, you know, we'll cut our
13:50greenhouse gases, we'll stop clearing the forest.
13:55And then you look at the figures five years later and it's worse.
13:58So that's my, you know, that's the tragedy of it is I'm very happy if somebody can show
14:06me things getting better.
14:07I don't want to be a pessimist, but I also don't think if you're heading for the iceberg,
14:14you don't say, oh, she'll be right, mate, you can't do that or you'll crash.
14:21You know, one place where I get some hope is talking to my students at Colorado State
14:28University.
14:29I teach freshmen every year and teach classes in environmental policy.
14:35And I've noticed within the last five years, especially, a really growing willingness to
14:42question growth, whether that's population growth, economic growth.
14:46I think the rising generation has a sense that we're going to have to start doing things
14:52a little differently.
14:53And, you know, the good news is if we really get serious about confronting growth and looking
14:59for alternatives, I think we have a lot of things that we can bring to the table.
15:05We have great technological knowledge.
15:08We have a sense that we're pushing up to and past planetary boundaries.
15:12So we have that incentive to act.
15:16And now with younger people showing a real willingness to question some of the economic
15:22verities, maybe that'll all come together.
15:25Well, I hope so too, Phil.
15:28I mean, I would not like to be part of a generation that had really consigned the future to oblivion.
15:35I really don't want to be part of that.
15:38But I think that if we're waiting, look, I don't have kids, but I have young nieces
15:45and nephews who are in their 20s who are also very conscious, very aware.
15:51But if we're going to wait for them to grow up and take the helm in 40 years or something,
15:56it's too late.
15:57It's got to happen now.
15:59It's now.
16:00The emergency is now.
16:01So this is my main concern is we have to change now.
16:09Where do things stand these days in Australia in terms of population growth?
16:14I know for a while now, there has been a lot of support for a so-called big Australia and
16:20attempt to continue to increase and grow the Australian population.
16:25Is there, has there been any kind of a backlash or a movement away from that approach?
16:31Or is the idea still, let's keep growing?
16:34There may be amongst the younger generation that you were talking about, maybe there,
16:39they understand and they will oppose it.
16:42But really, we have the, you know, we have the, what we call the Liberal National Party,
16:48which is equivalent to your Republicans or, well, they're all the same anyway.
16:52And our Labour Party more equivalent to your Democratics.
16:54But they are, as far as these things are concerned, they really, it's driven by the growth ethic
17:01and the business classes again.
17:03They want to sell more houses, more whiteboards, more newspapers, everything, everything.
17:09Computers. They want to sell more of everything.
17:12So I don't know. Even the Greens can't really be trusted to be very strong, particularly
17:18on population. Now, the problem, because, you know, I'm very happy that population is
17:23a big, big part of the problem, especially in Australia.
17:27But as you know, as our Murray-Darling Basin area sort of goes into drought every 10 years
17:35now and, you know, it's basically feeding us, but won't feed anybody in the end.
17:40So I'm struck by something you said a moment ago.
17:44So the Green Party is certainly stronger in Australia than it is in the United States.
17:50They're concerned primarily with environmental issues.
17:54What's the Green Party Australia's take on population growth?
17:59I think the problem with population is that there was a great movement against it.
18:06And there's a little box in my book where I talk about the coalition of the unwilling.
18:11And there was a big move against it.
18:13It was by the evangelicals in America, the Saudi Arabians, the Vatican.
18:22There was this big move and also by the market, the neoliberal ideologues, you know,
18:28the people who thought, let the market solve it, the market can solve everything.
18:32And so in that context, around the Reagan time, an attempt to address this was completely squashed
18:41by the propaganda that you can't control it anyway.
18:44Let people do what they do and the market will solve it.
18:47And that seems to have that seems to have persisted as the ruling view of most people.
18:54But if you talk to Green Party members, they would agree with a lot of what you said.
18:58They would agree that the market can't solve everything.
19:01They would agree that neoliberal economics isn't the approach they want to take.
19:08And yet that doesn't seem to have translated into a concern to address population issues.
19:15That to me is really fascinating.
19:17Okay.
19:18Well, seeing another thing, though, about the population issue is that there was a period
19:23back in the, I don't know, 60s, 70s, when there was evidence of, well, there was the
19:31one child policy in China where people were really very, very badly treated if they had
19:37more than one.
19:38And generally, there was an ideological reaction to controlling anything about individual rights.
19:45So is part of the issue that people really don't see how we could address population,
19:53maybe advocate for smaller families, they don't see how we could combine that without
19:59being very authoritarian and controlling.
20:02So if you were trying to convince a person like that, what would you say?
20:07Well, I would probably try and talk about how the planet is a much smaller thing than
20:13what has always been assumed.
20:16And if you want your kids to have a decent life, don't have too many.
20:21In fact, I think one or two is far better.
20:25Well, speaking as the father of two children, I think two is plenty.
20:31There have been times when I felt it was too much, but certainly two is plenty to keep
20:38me busy.
20:39Yes.
20:40Two is especially in the U.S. and Australia, in the rich world, you know, two is because
20:48every one of those is going to be taking up the planetary space of, you know, 50 or more
20:55people who are scraping their life, you know, just trying to struggling to stay alive.
21:00There's still a lot of people don't even get enough to eat.
21:03So, you know, anyway, I think we're on the same page here, as they say in America.
21:08Well, Karen, are there any points or any issues you'd like to bring up that we haven't covered today?
21:15There were a few of the boundaries that we didn't talk about, but one of them is the
21:20pollution and novel substances, the things like the plastics in the Mariana Trench and
21:26stuff like that.
21:27So it is, and this is to do with too many people, too.
21:30I mean, that's another one of the boundaries that they haven't figured out, the team haven't
21:35just figured out where that boundary might be, but they know there is one somewhere.
21:40But so my overall attitude, though, Phil, is we have to put we have to we have to address
21:47both population and consumption.
21:50We have we need a new system of production and consumption as well as trying to get
21:57family planning measures across the world, available, free, easy.
22:03And without without forcing anybody, without any without any force.
22:10Very good. Agreed.
22:12Karen, this has been a wonderful discussion.
22:14I appreciate you rising a bit early and and coming to us from I think you're coming to
22:22us from Beechwood, Australia.
22:24Is that correct?
22:26That's right. New South Wales, a bit 200 miles north of Sydney.
22:31Well, thank you so much for making the time for us today.
22:34And thank you for being on The Population Factor.
22:37Well, thank you for inviting me, Phil.
22:39It's been great.