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00:00And I think people need to expand out of this purely human-centered view of the universe,
00:06this purely human experience that we've been living, to suggest maybe we're part of a larger ecosystem of life.
00:12Hello, everybody. Welcome to WatchMojo or Unveiled. You may be watching on either of those channels.
00:18I'm your host, Rob, and today we are talking about UAPs.
00:22I am here with a special guest, Reed Summers, who is a writer, speaker, and podcaster focusing on UAPs.
00:29And he's here with me to break all the most recent news down and take us back to where this all started and where it's going.
00:36So, Reed, welcome. Thank you for joining me.
00:39Thank you, Rob. Great to be here.
00:41I think it's important to provide a little bit of context because WatchMojo doesn't typically do a lot of long-form interviews.
00:48But in this case, we felt like it was kind of warranted.
00:52This is a huge topic and we have published a few videos covering UAPs recently.
00:57They've all been met with a great response, so there's clearly a big interest in our audience.
01:03So what I was hoping was that we could start by taking it back to 2017.
01:08The New York Times article that kind of got the ball rolling with all of this brought UAPs into the mainstream conversation a little bit.
01:17And I think that you're a great person to kind of walk us through it up to where we are now.
01:21So, yeah, let's start with a little recap, if you will.
01:26Yeah, sure. So, as many know, back in 2017, three journalists, Leslie Cain, Ralph Blumenthal and Helene Cooper,
01:34published an article in the New York Times regarding a secret Pentagon program named ATIP,
01:40which was tasked with $22 million of funding that was facilitated by Senator Harry Reed to study specifically the military implications of UFOs,
01:55instances of altercations, incursions, that sort of thing, and to basically assess the national security state of affairs regarding that.
02:04With that article came out three Navy videos,
02:08which are now collectively referred to as the Gimbal, the FLIR video and the GoFast video,
02:17which basically showed craft with performance capabilities and unusual flight characteristics that could not be resolved by ATIP and other government programs that had studied them.
02:30And these were released alongside that article.
02:34They were later confirmed to be authentic by the Defense Department,
02:39and they were later re-released by the Defense Department to clear up any kind of confusion regarding them.
02:45After 2017, a number of events took place.
02:50There was the standing up of the UAP Task Force,
02:54which was required by Congress to basically review those same incidences and ones like them,
03:02like the Tic Tac incident in 2004, and to report back on the potential national security risks and possible foreign surveillance or technologies that might be implied by them.
03:14And that was pushed forward by senators like Marco Rubio,
03:19and that culminated in a June 2021 preliminary assessment of UAP to Congress,
03:25which, as events unfolded, led to a May 2022 hearing in Congress, which was the first of three hearings that have now taken place.
03:35So a lot of events, obviously, this has burst into the public discourse and public consciousness,
03:41the possibility that there is a technology of non-human,
03:45non-Earth origin alongside other technologies that are most likely foreign adversary or prosaic in nature,
03:53and that by all possibilities, this is being controlled or piloted by a form of non-human intelligence.
04:00And that's really where the conversation is heading, I think, as we stand today.
04:04Right. And so this leads us to the most recent hearing that happened on November 13th,
04:10which WatchMojo covered with top 10 moments from that hearing.
04:15And so I'm curious to know what were your biggest takeaways from that?
04:19And I'm curious to know if they align with what we deem to be in the top 10 moments from the hearing.
04:26Oh, yeah. Well, I watched them with eyes glued to the screen to see what was said, what was revealed.
04:33I think some of my top moments on number one would have been Congresswoman Mace pressing
04:38Lou Elizondo regarding, quote, alien and, quote, craft,
04:42because the word alien has been kind of, you know,
04:45cautiously avoided over the over the course of events as the word or the term non-human intelligence or NHI has been preferred
04:53because it's potentially more all encompassing of the variety of phenomena that might be at play.
04:59But Congresswoman Mace asked Lou Elizondo were, I can quote,
05:04were they designed to identify and reverse engineered alien craft?
05:08Yes or no? To which Elizondo said yes.
05:11And I thought that was definitely a high point in the hearing.
05:15In another instance, Lou was also pressed on what are these non-human biologics?
05:21Were they a part of the transfer from Lockheed Martin to the OSAP program back in the 2008 timeframe?
05:28To which he said, well, they predate, you know, his time,
05:31both career and in the world suggesting that they might these biologics might be Roswell or post-Roswell related,
05:38but that they are connected, different but connected. I thought that was a definite notable moment.
05:44And then Congressman Moskowitz, when essentially Lou,
05:48and this happened with a number of the witnesses,
05:51basically said when pressed for more information or specifics,
05:54I can't tell you more. I've signed NDAs.
05:59Congressman Moskowitz basically floated the statement.
06:02Well, you can't talk about Fight Club, you know, because there's no Fight Club,
06:06which is to say, you know, though you can't say anything about it.
06:10The fact that you can't say anything about it says that there's a there there.
06:13And I think that highlighted the frustration of the congressmen
06:16and congresswomen chairing the committee. I'm sorry,
06:19chairing the hearings. And I think that was on full display, you know,
06:23in so many cases they were pressing the witnesses for,
06:26you know, give us the details we need to which they said we can't say anything.
06:31And then the Congress people turned to the camera in essence and said,
06:33do you see do you see the obfuscation and not by the witnesses specifically,
06:37but by the system that prevents them from disclosing
06:40what they know in order for Congress to have appropriate
06:44and legal oversight over these special access programs
06:48or SAP's of which there are acknowledged unacknowledged
06:53and then waived and I think it's it's suggested that a lot of the deep
06:58UAP specific programs are in the waived category of that spectrum,
07:03right? So you mentioned that they never use the term alien at any point,
07:07but they kind of dance around it and find other creative terms to use
07:11which kind of suggests aliens.
07:14Wouldn't you think what do you make of language that they use to describe
07:18these phenomena? Right? I mean,
07:20I think NHI is being preferred for several reasons first.
07:24It is more all-encompassing of a variety of phenomena that might be taking place.
07:29It also circumvents the ridicule that has been stacked up upon the word alien little
07:35green men and people who believe that that's what's taking place.
07:38And so it allows kind of a way to get to the public
07:41and to talk to the public about the possibility that we're not alone
07:44without jumping to the conclusion of physical biological non-human aliens,
07:50but in so many cases, you know, they have gone right to that edge and just over.
07:54I mean the word alien has been used before in the 2023 hearing
07:59with David Grush and his testimony,
08:01you know, he specifically spoke of non-human biologics,
08:05right? Which is it's you have to wonder, you know,
08:08if it's not alien what are they talking about
08:10and according to my understanding there is in fact indications that a physical non-human alien
08:17or extraterrestrial presence is a component of the phenomenon that we're seeing
08:23and I think you know as the public comes into the awareness of a non-human intelligence
08:27and we start to ask the questions about nature origin being physicality non-physicality.
08:35I think it's going to end up at the very predictable line of aliens
08:38and you know when you see the media coverage after the most recent hearing
08:43and before by and large with the public thinks when they hear non-human intelligence is aliens
08:48and that is where the conversation seems to need to go.
08:51I was looking at the comment section of our video covering the hearing
08:55and I think one of the top comments said something to the effect of I was telling my wife about it
09:00after I was watching the hearing
09:02and her response was oh my God, I'm so busy.
09:05I don't even have time for this in my life.
09:08I'm not sure if that's an indication of what the general consensus is for the public,
09:12but what do you think the perception is generally speaking?
09:16Are people ready for a reveal as big as there are extraterrestrials that are visiting our planet?
09:24Yeah, great question and really the focus of my work.
09:28I think society is more ready than we think it is especially at the at the citizen,
09:34you know level in terms of what most people think is possible given the findings of science
09:40and the discovery of exoplanetary systems that can Harbor Earth like worlds
09:45that might have a terrestrial surface on which you know,
09:47life like our own can arise
09:50and I think it you know people you know,
09:52science has brought us to this point of recognizing the obvious possibility
09:56if life has arisen here it can arise elsewhere if sentient life could arise here.
10:01Why not elsewhere in this vast universe?
10:03So when I talk to people and I do talk to a lot of folks about this kind of from the ground up by
10:09and large they can handle the concept of aliens
10:12when I start to go into interdimensionality or that there's a demonic aspect to it,
10:18which I don't necessarily think accurately reflect the phenomenon.
10:22That's where it starts to kind of get more confusing
10:25and I think people are ready to entertain the possibility that we're not alone in our universe
10:31and that the events of the 20th century a very unique century in the history both of the planet
10:37and the human civilization
10:38and its development such as World War on a scale never seen before the detonation of nuclear weapons
10:45environmental destruction and the technological strides were making in every in every way possible,
10:52right that those could be detectable signatures by a non-human intelligence from beyond our world
10:57that might have prompted an observation a visitation possibly even an intervention into our world.
11:04I think these are people can get this it is a lot at the level of paradigm the level of what one
11:12how one places humanity in the universe at the center of that universe right at the center of you know,
11:17God's concern and God's plan if you are of a religious disposition
11:24and so I think there are some real challenges there,
11:27but I think you know society is ready for this
11:29and what this could do to revolutionize our sense of place
11:34and participation in a larger universe to make us realize that we are all human beings.
11:40This is a fundamentally new commonly held identity that is possible now of being human
11:45and that that could supersede other identities that divide us
11:50and generate ongoing competition and conflict whether it's over ethnic national religious socio-economic lines.
12:00I think people are ready for a mind expanding
12:03and species uniting realization that could potentially have great power to move us beyond some of the crises
12:09that we are plagued with in our world.
12:12Yeah, it's nice to think that it might be more of a unifying thing for human beings to bring us together
12:19knowing that we're just one of probably a vast number of species that exist in the universe.
12:25You mentioned technology advancing rapidly over the past century
12:29and I think that's very notable because somebody mentioned I believe it was Mike gold.
12:33I'm not sure speaking about non-human intelligence.
12:37I think somebody floated the idea that it that doesn't necessarily mean biological intelligence.
12:43It might mean artificial intelligence or computer intelligence.
12:46Did you observe that and what do you think of that?
12:50Definitely and you know, I mean we don't know yet everything about what's taking place in our world.
12:54So some of the craft are of a certain size that might make it less likely
12:59that they're being actually piloted by a physical being maybe they are controlled by some form of technology
13:05or super AI that's you know, moving throughout the universe scouting planets of promise
13:10or you know vulnerable situations for them to either insert themselves into or exploit in some way.
13:16We just we don't know the entirety of it.
13:19So yes, I think that's possible.
13:21I would argue that in the vast range of possibilities in terms of possible explanations for the phenomenon.
13:28There are more logical and probable explanations that we need to consider.
13:33I think you know the record within ufology of physical craft that are responsive to human beings
13:40that have engaged in evasive maneuvers or actual altercations with human military craft
13:46and in some cases have actually harmed people seemingly with intent.
13:51That's an important data point on the other side on the on the direct human
13:55and possible NHI interaction. I think you know,
13:59there are indications that people have encountered physical biological entities
14:03with evolved physical structures that suggest that these life forms may have evolved
14:09within a universe of resource constraints environmental pressure
14:13and competition why else would they have digits
14:16and eyes and mouths and you know digestive tract and so forth.
14:20So there are indications that there is an interaction with a physical alien entity.
14:26And so taking into account I don't think we're dealing with a purely mechanistic phenomenon
14:30or that is purely a form of technology.
14:33I think you know, there's the craft but then there's the controller
14:36and I think we need to get to the conversation about who's behind the wheel.
14:40Who's piloting these craft for what purpose?
14:43Why did they enter our Earth and human system?
14:46Why are they making these incursions over military sites sensitive nuclear installations
14:51and potentially entering forms of contact some of which are non-consensual with
14:57with people around the world as has been reported.
15:00Do you think that that's where the conversation is headed in terms of the mainstream discourse
15:06because now we're having these hearings
15:08and it's acknowledged that there are these craft appearing,
15:12you know and being observed by mostly military,
15:15but I mean everybody it's just that they're focusing on the military examples.
15:20Is the next step in this conversation talking about who's piloting them
15:25and what the intent is and what might come of that?
15:31I think so.
15:31And I think we heard it in the final moments of the hearing in Congress several weeks ago
15:36when all four witnesses were asked very directly and in succession.
15:41What does non-human intelligence mean to you
15:43and Tim Gallaudet retired Rear Admiral said very specifically a higher form of intelligence.
15:50Lou, I believe kind of anchored into a more basic definition of life of being able to basically like cognate
15:57or you know, make an intentional response
16:00and the other two witnesses abstained from making a statement but said,
16:04you know, we need to know so I think the conversation has to go to the question of NHI disclosure of UAP
16:11unidentified anomalous phenomena is one thing right
16:15and there are many prosaic explanations for some of that for some of those objects craft in the atmosphere,
16:21but we need to move to the side of the coin,
16:24which is well some of the UAP that are being investigated are not able to be explained as prosaic
16:30or as having human origin.
16:32So the ones that are not are transiting our Earth system at will,
16:36you know, they're potentially operating in the oceans in ways that we cannot monitor
16:41or even understand and so that's a problem.
16:44I think it is a realistic national security concern.
16:47I would argue it's actually a more existential world security concern
16:52and my hope is that the disclosure conversation gets outside the national security state defense intelligence apparatus
16:59of the United States and gets into more of an international conversation
17:04where we start to look at what are the frameworks
17:07or platforms by which our humanity can can assert its sovereignty in this world
17:13who gets to transit our border with space or our you know,
17:17Earth system atmosphere to ocean to terrestrial borders who does not
17:22and what are the kind of rules
17:24and regulations that should basically oversee the potential interaction with non-human intelligence,
17:30which some people think is taking place already,
17:33right? There's been mention made about Russia
17:36having recovered technology China having recovered technology as well as the United States,
17:42but we're only aware of the conversations that are happening within the US
17:46and North America largely.
17:48Do you think these conversations are being had in other countries as well?
17:53Oh, absolutely, you know back in the let's see.
17:57I have it here at George Knapp basically undertook a special trip to the USSR
18:02before the end of the Cold War
18:05and basically gained access to individuals who are a part of what might have been the largest study into UFOs
18:11in human history tens of thousands of reports gathered numerous individuals interviewed extensively
18:18and guidance put forth by the Ministry of Defense regarding this being effectively a problem
18:25for state security at that time
18:27and the potential for retaliation being a real one by non-human intelligence.
18:31So those conversations have happened.
18:33They go back to the Eisenhower era the Carter administration the JFK administration,
18:39which is an interesting one connection there
18:42and and into the USSR pre pre before the end of the Cold War.
18:46So those conversations are are have been had they're happening now.
18:50I don't doubt I think they are heavily siloed due to the geopolitical tensions
18:56and kind of state competition between you know,
18:59large state actors.
19:00So how to break those silos down
19:02and begin some form of greater information sharing
19:05so that we can come to a collective understanding about what this visitation is
19:10who the visitors are
19:11and to begin to articulate pathways for a united human response to that visitation
19:17that doesn't basically sequester this inside the national security defense apparatuses of the state,
19:24you know, the major global actors
19:27and fuel what some have described as a secret arms race over technologies
19:32and science of non-earth origin,
19:35you know, that statement was made very clearly by Lou Elizondo
19:38in his opening remarks in the congressional hearing several weeks ago.
19:41A small cadre within our own government involved in the UAP topic has created a culture of suppression
19:46and intimidation that I've personally been victim to along with many of my former colleagues
19:51that statement had also been made by David Grush had been seconded by Carl retired Colonel Carl Nell.
19:58And so there are former high-ranking government officials coming forward inside the United States
20:04saying that there is a secret arms race underway
20:07to what degree that is fueling the present tensions and conflicts in the world.
20:11We don't know
20:12but you can imagine the technologies that have been gained via these secret programs
20:18to recover crashed vehicles and reverse engineer them presumably for military applications
20:26would present some serious asymmetric capabilities to whoever gets to that technology first
20:32and develops it for viable military platforms.
20:36So the risk of the global public not knowing about this
20:39and allowing those programs to continue I think is very high
20:43and I don't think we should count the NHI as neutral
20:47or as you know, a removed actor simply in a state of observation.
20:51There are so many cases of direct incursions into civilian military government spaces
20:58that I think warrant concern
21:00and I think really compel us to get to the bottom of this Enigma,
21:04right? It's it's repeatedly mentioned that these observed craft could be a security threat.
21:12And my interpretation is always that it's the craft themselves in their operation,
21:17you know in our territories that are the threat itself.
21:21But what you just said makes me also think
21:24that other countries that may have obtained this technology may be an even greater threat to us
21:29than the craft themselves that we're seeing flying around in our airspace
21:35that may not be of earthly origin. Right?
21:39I mean totally so, you know, the possibility of there being a threat is totally non-zero,
21:44right from the NHI side.
21:46But when you look at the human side the potential for unexpected unanticipated hazards to ensue
21:52because someone got their hands on this technology in a way that was unsanctioned
21:57unmanaged not outside outside the legal frameworks
22:01that basically govern who does what with technology in the civil space in the federal space.
22:07Yeah, the risks are very high and we may be our own worst enemies.
22:10You could say, you know, we humans tend to divide
22:13and balkanize ourselves over basically anything
22:16and we struggle to come to consensus over numerous,
22:19you know, real and present threats to world stability
22:22whether it's the climate crisis whether it's runaway AGI
22:26so that there is a not an AI artificial intelligence,
22:30but an alien intelligence which is depositing
22:33or transacting in our space technologies
22:36and science with certain state actors possibly non-state actors defense corporations,
22:41for example in ways that we cannot manager
22:45or monitor is I think a very high risk scenario for the world.
22:49In terms of the development of disclosure of the phenomenon to the public.
22:54I was watching your conversation with Richard Dolan breaking down the hearings
22:58and one of his theories was that perhaps it will get to the point
23:02where everybody will just know that extraterrestrials are here
23:08and that's the point where the government will say shucks.
23:12Okay guys, we admitted this has been happening.
23:16Do you think that's likely the scenario that will roll out
23:19or will we get a big reveal that will shock everybody?
23:23Great question and a lot of folks are asking this question.
23:27I think there are multiple factions vying for the disclosure narrative
23:31and for various different agendas.
23:33I think there it's plausible.
23:35There's there's a faction within the US government
23:37that would want the slowest of acclamations, right?
23:40It's almost like no light switch just a dawning that takes 50 60 70 80 years.
23:47Richard Dolan has you know,
23:48posited that maybe it'll be something like the JFK assassination
23:51where most people know that there was you know,
23:54a bad actor that there was a conspiracy either by the government
23:57or the mob to to kill JFK they acknowledge it
24:01but it doesn't it's not Earth shattering.
24:03It doesn't change their paradigm.
24:04They go about their daily affairs.
24:05They pay their taxes, you know, the government citizen contract is intact.
24:10So yes, I think it's likely there is some faction that would prefer to see it that way.
24:16I do think there is another breakaway faction.
24:18However, that wants authentic disclosure for a variety of reasons
24:24and you know one is the obvious one that it's it's simply you could say illegal to keep basic knowledge
24:32about science the universe human origins away from the human species
24:38and in the possession of unregulated special access programs that don't even risk
24:44that don't even respond or answer to their own government, right?
24:47And so to keep that basic understanding away from people, it's not okay.
24:51It is unethical.
24:52They don't they don't have a right to privatize that knowledge.
24:56So I think that's one motive another is I think there is some some really there are some really difficult truths
25:02standing behind this phenomenon hard things have happened that have not been acknowledged
25:07and the longer that stays secret.
25:09It's ours it putrefies it becomes toxic
25:12and it and it risks breaking out in a catastrophic way that completely compromises the citizen government contract
25:19and and that leads to massive societal disturbance whether that's you know,
25:24the existence of an abduction phenomenon in which people have been taken non-consensually
25:29over many years by a non-human intelligence that the government was not able to effectively impede
25:35was not able to match technologically,
25:37you know, the government has that job of keeping us safe and secure
25:42and and able to access our fundamental rights.
25:45And so if they were not able to do that, that's a hard truth.
25:48And how do they explain that to the people of the world?
25:52In addition, I think there's a third wheel to this to this cart moving down the road
25:57and that is that the non-human intelligence has its own intent and agenda.
26:01They may choose to self-reveal in a way that undermines world stability
26:06or that seeks to upend the balance of power and favor,
26:09you know, one world power over another and you know,
26:13the potential of some form of retaliatory action.
26:16It has been suggested in some of the whistleblower testimony that's come out deals.
26:23It has been suggested have potentially been made did those deals
26:28where those deals made on behalf of Humanity's best interests
26:31or private interests, you know,
26:33were they a violation of people's individual sovereignty
26:36or our own our own plan our interest in planetary and human survival possibly.
26:42So the NHI is an actor in this equation to they've been operating in a state of covert fashion
26:49in a state of non-disclosure and as long as that's the case
26:53and as long as we are unable to verify potential claims made by a non-human intelligence.
26:59We're in this precarious position.
27:01We're a world divided at war with itself
27:04and there is another actor another potential power present in our space
27:09with the technology and capabilities to alter our human journey in some key ways.
27:16And so I think that's another factor that might compel disclosure
27:20on a faster timeline into a more complete degree than some would want.
27:26I've heard some say that with the technology
27:28that has been allegedly recovered dating back to Roswell
27:32and perhaps earlier than that if these things had been utilized for public good
27:39that it could have advanced us technologically
27:42and just generally in society far beyond how far we've come up until now.
27:48Are you in agreement with that? Do you think they've been holding back technology
27:51that could have really benefited the human race over the past 50 60 70 years?
27:57You know, I don't know. I think you know, a lot of folks want to leap to this kind of,
28:03you know, hopeful expectation that while these craft are able to perform in ways that defy physics,
28:09right that have so much energetic potential which if we were to harness that,
28:13you know, we could fix the climate crisis free energy for all right.
28:16It might liberate us from our addiction to fossil fuels.
28:21I don't think leaping to that conclusion is warranted just yet.
28:25I don't know what exactly has been gained from these crashed vehicles,
28:29how much of their capabilities have been extracted
28:33and brought into marketable technologies that could positively,
28:38you know, revolutionize society and an equitable access to technology itself.
28:45I do know that, you know, the our human tendency to basically want to privatize those findings,
28:51market them, profit off of them, gain whether it's market supremacy,
28:55defense or intelligence advantage over a foreign adversary,
29:01for example, that's very high so that these technologies would suddenly help society writ large.
29:08I wouldn't leap to that conclusion. If anything, I think they could be more of a divider than a unifier
29:14and there's no real evidence that the non-human intelligence itself has gifted technology.
29:19No strings attached that would positively help the human family at this time.
29:25You know, Lou Elizondo has come out saying from his perspective,
29:29you know, leading the a tip program within the Defense Department
29:33that there really are no indications of benevolent intent.
29:37That's does not mean that they're malevolent.
29:38It just means that there is a dearth of indications that they are benevolent in intent.
29:44And I think that's a notable signal and one that we should pay attention to.
29:49I want to jump back a little bit to the hearing and one thing that was revealed even leading up to the hearing,
29:56which was the Immaculate Constellation report by Michael Schellenberger.
30:01What can you say about that? What is the significance of that report?
30:06And in a nutshell, what is Immaculate Constellation and why is it important?
30:11So as far as I understand it, Immaculate Constellation was an umbrella special access program
30:18that was set up to basically collect high quality Immaculate video and sensor data regarding UAP
30:28and bring that into one space and manage it in that space.
30:32A constellation of special access programs collecting Immaculate, right? High quality data.
30:40You know, I was a little disappointed in the hearing when Michael Schellenberger was pressed for any indication as to where this individual might be.
30:47Are they even an employee of the Defense Department?
30:50And all he could prefer was that they are a former or current government employee.
30:55And again, this is the problem. To bring forward a document written by basically just someone whose identity we cannot verify.
31:05I know Michael Schellenberger verified that to his satisfaction and that's definitely something as a credible journalist.
31:12But it's frustrating, right? And so I looked through the whole document.
31:17I think there are some eye-opening cases contained in that document.
31:21There are definitely some reveals regarding three-letter acronym agencies that have been coordinating crash recovery and reverse engineering efforts.
31:33I think, you know, positive movement will take place by people connecting the dots on the different SAPs that are being identified.
31:42What government and defense and intelligence community entities those reside within?
31:50And hey, you know what? Maybe in the upcoming hearings, because this was meant to be one of a series of hearings to my knowledge,
31:56they can call to the stands witnesses who were involved in those programs or who had oversight into numerous programs.
32:04Who knows? Maybe they can look down the list of, you know, the past, the secretaries of defense for the past six administrations.
32:11People who had that downward looking potential oversight, bring them to the stands, ask them to testify on the record.
32:19So I think it's promising. I don't know if I see or Immaculate Constellation that the acknowledgement of that program will itself move the needle that much.
32:30But I think we're getting very important data points,
32:34which might be connectable in some fashion that start to reveal where within the vast intelligence and defense apparatus of the U.S.
32:42these programs have been sequestered, compartmentalized from congressional oversight,
32:49and undertaken probably largely outside the purview of government in the corporate space.
32:55And, you know, we might look to, as disclosure rolls forward, other indications to cross corroborate the picture that's coming into view,
33:03such as, you know, what defense companies are attempting to market certain exotic technologies?
33:09You know, who is doing foreign adversary technology acquisition and exploitation?
33:16Can we corroborate that with whatever Congress is able to understand or to glean from the testimony of these witnesses?
33:24Right. And this isn't strictly a government thing. There are a lot of private companies also involved in these things.
33:32We hear a lot about Lockheed Skunk Works and other such companies.
33:37To what extent are they involved in this process? And how does that complicate things?
33:43I think it complicates things a lot. And I would say their involvement is quite high.
33:47To my knowledge, the government lost a high degree of oversight and even access into these programs decades ago,
33:55you know, pre turn of the millennium, possibly back into the Reagan era.
34:00So these programs have proceeded to engage in potentially illegal programs using military and defense assets,
34:12whether that's financial or personnel or facilities, to potentially down these craft and extract the technologies that are extractable for unknown purposes.
34:24And, you know, at one level, society would greatly benefit by having our best and brightest minds in on that process
34:33to bring forward the greatest insight from those discoveries and bring it into the civilian space,
34:39into the marketplace and out of the defense apparatus in which it's lived.
34:46But yeah, I think a lot of this has shifted outside of the purview of government into the corporate defense contractor space.
34:53These are also multinational organizations. Their, you know, their fidelity to one country is questionable.
35:00Right. And so are these technologies being transited across state lines in ways that would be potential risk to national security, at least in this country?
35:09Yeah, I think that's very possible as well.
35:12We had mentioned whistleblowers, and I think that's an important issue to discuss,
35:17because, as we said, Michael Schellenberger was reluctant to reveal any information about the source of his report.
35:24And I think that this is a big issue. People aren't willing to come forward because of fear of retaliation.
35:32One of the most outspoken people from last year's hearing was was David Grush,
35:37and he had allegedly been attacked numerous times in various ways and suffered greatly for the information that he revealed to the public,
35:45being one of the people testifying who revealed the most information, and it has impacted him in a negative way.
35:54So others seeing this may be even more reluctant to come forward.
35:59What's going to have to change in order for more whistleblowers to come out?
36:04Yeah, I think, you know, real legislation around whistleblower protection is going to have to both pass, but also be enforced.
36:13I think, you know, the retaliation that's been reported by David Grush, Lou Elizondo, and others over the years is highly alarming.
36:20If there's nothing there, why are these people being undermined to this level?
36:25Again, can't talk about Fight Club because there's no Fight Club, right?
36:28Well, there's something absolutely happening behind the scenes,
36:31and these individuals making this information known to the public is apparently highly threatening to certain interests.
36:37What are those interests, you know? So what's going to move the needle forward?
36:42I think a lot of things are going to have to happen. The UAP Disclosure Act, a key piece of legislation,
36:48which would have put in place a presidentially appointed review panel of experts across society,
36:57academia, to review key cases of unidentified anomalous phenomena,
37:02to basically advance the findings without a stake or a predetermined bias in that,
37:07and to exert imminent domain upon the defense contractors who presumably are in possession of these craft,
37:15these materials, or even these biologics. That is key legislation.
37:20It was passed in a very stripped-down form last year,
37:24and then I do not believe it made any strides in the recent Defense Authorization Act as it passed just recently.
37:32So it's in a holding pattern, in a limbo. To my knowledge,
37:36there is an airdrop procedure by which this could potentially be reintroduced,
37:41but that's going to be a fast-act item,
37:46and we'll have to see the Trump administration and the cabinet that he puts together.
37:51What is their appetite to take on the deep state and basically to force oversight,
37:57which has been so profoundly lost? Good steps could be taken.
38:02He's put in place or he's actually made picks of certain individuals like Senator Rubio
38:08and Ratcliffe who have a history of being highly supportive of UAP legislation.
38:13So we'll see what happens there. I think more hearings with other whistleblowers
38:19who have had direct involvement in the programs and direct oversight.
38:23They may be hostile whistleblowers. I'm sorry, not whistleblowers, witnesses.
38:27They may have to be forcibly brought to the stand and grilled on stage,
38:31not willingly, but against their will potentially.
38:34We're going to have to have such a confrontational moment with those individuals
38:40and corporate entities who have been in possession of this outside the rule of law
38:45and against the better interests of the American people and the world population.
38:50And so that's going to be very important.
38:53So in addition, you know, I think at the presidential executive level,
38:58some sort of office for NHI affairs,
39:02some direct report to the president himself who has direct knowledge of these programs
39:08and is not compromised, does not have, you know,
39:12certain risks hanging over their head that would prevent them from acting in the interest of the American public.
39:18That would be very important. And, you know,
39:20we can look to the individuals who have been most forthright,
39:22who have brought forward the most information against their own professional concern for,
39:28you know, advancement, their own physical concern for safety.
39:31There are outstanding heroes who have brought forward this information to Congress and,
39:38you know, individuals like that we need in these positions to oversee the regulation
39:44of how these SAPs function with regards to this topic
39:48and how the disclosure of information can be brought out to the public.
39:52So I think those are all important shifts.
39:55In addition, I think this needs to get out of the United States.
39:59This needs to go international. To some degree,
40:01we're relying on the US government to undertake disclosure of an event.
40:06They may not have full understanding of the compartmentalization.
40:10The stove piping means that how many individuals in the US government really understand the nature
40:16of the non-human intelligence that has interacted with humanity so far.
40:20There may be very few, there may be none, who have a very clear, complete understanding of that.
40:26So banging on the door of the Pentagon and demanding that they tell us everything,
40:30A, it's unrealistic. That's not what, you know, defense entities do, right?
40:35They gather information, they make it, they securitize it in their space and they silo it.
40:43So it's kind of, there's a cognitive dissonance with the ask.
40:47And I think getting this outside the US into an international setting and developing the treaties,
40:53maybe even the treaty organizations that would regulate both the use of non-human technologies
40:59and science, the interaction with non-human entities,
41:02and the way that this is brought into especially our technology.
41:06Because if our technology is being manipulated in some fashion
41:11or is being infused with potent capabilities that we can barely even understand,
41:17we're going to have a different world in a decade.
41:20Is this why we have a different world today, a decade after?
41:23You know, it's possible. We don't know. So I think the international side is key.
41:28And then last, the citizen space, you know, there really are layers to disclosure.
41:34There's government disclosure, but there's also citizen disclosure
41:38because the citizens have been interacted with in my view.
41:41So what do they have to bring forward?
41:43What's their story? That's a big part of the picture.
41:46In addition, the non-human intelligence, we need disclosure from them.
41:50I don't find it acceptable for them to operate in the way they have,
41:54transacting with the individuals and entities that they have potentially.
41:59That's not working in the best interest of the human species.
42:02So we need disclosure from the entities or forces or intelligences present in our world.
42:09And I think these are the next steps for the coming years.
42:13Do you think that mounting public pressure can help shift the needle in a meaningful way?
42:19More people are having conversations about this, you and I for example,
42:24and there's a lot of interest growing.
42:26So do you think that that is going to help force the hand of the powers that be
42:32to get moving and be more honest and transparent about all this?
42:37Yes, I think it is key.
42:39I think it's got to come from all sectors of society.
42:42We need engagement holistically by the whole human species.
42:45And we need individuals, experts in all areas of subject matter
42:50and the human knowledge base to come forward and to basically say,
42:54we want to know, we want to engage with this.
42:56A, that lowers the pain threshold a bit for government if the people want it
43:01and they can handle it and there's some indication they can handle it.
43:05And so in that sense, government doesn't have to, quote,
43:08disclose, but rather confirm.
43:10And especially if there is citizen disclosure of people coming forward saying
43:14what they know, normalizing with society at large,
43:19the nature of the interaction that's taken place,
43:21then government can come forward and say, yeah,
43:23we can confirm the nature of the discourse
43:26and what is being discussed is accurate to our knowledge.
43:29And there's less of this citizen versus government,
43:33human-on-human oppositional stance that I do think is
43:38arising in the disclosure conversation.
43:40So yeah, people calling for this, people in religious organizations,
43:45congregations saying, we're not afraid.
43:48We want to know what the universe is.
43:50And if we have to make some adjustments to how we envision the work of God
43:54or the work of, you know, the nature of human origins
43:56or humanity's presence in God's plan, we'll do it
44:01because we need to know the fundamental truths about our universe
44:04in order to progress as a species and not stay regressed
44:08in these old ancient animosities and dynamics that pit us against one another.
44:14One of the problems that a lot of people have is the lack of hard evidence,
44:20quote-unquote, because we get a lot of testimonies,
44:23we get a lot of word of mouth, but we haven't seen,
44:26I mean apart from the videos that have been released,
44:30you know, nobody's wheeling out an alien corpse,
44:32you know, in front of Congress to show, hey, look, this is what we've got.
44:36Where do you think that's going?
44:38And at what point do you think that we'll have harder evidence
44:40that will confirm in the skeptics eyes?
44:43Oh my gosh, this is real.
44:45Right, right.
44:46Well, I know among those who like to debunk this topic,
44:49that's their go-to argument is where's the hard evidence?
44:51It doesn't exist.
44:52It's all testimony, hearsay, second-hand, third-hand,
44:57you know, in my view, that argument for hard evidence is a soft argument.
45:01The hard evidence is possessed by and has been carefully stewarded
45:06by the very entities, organizations, defense corporations
45:09that have the resources and the air cover to keep this from the American public.
45:14So the more that we demand hard evidence as the only route to any acknowledgement
45:18or understanding, we basically put the power back in their hands,
45:21which I'm sure they would love, right?
45:23Because then they can met out that hard evidence or not to their liking.
45:27So I do think hard evidence will eventually be key to move society broadly
45:34over the evidentiary threshold of is this really real
45:39or is this just reported to be real?
45:41Okay, but I don't think that necessarily in the stepwise fashion
45:45is the next and only step to take.
45:48We have testimony from former presidents, high-level, high-ranking
45:54government officials, individuals overseeing whole military agencies
46:00from all sides of this political spectrum coming out saying UAP are real.
46:06We are being interacted with by a form of technology
46:10that is likely of non-Earth origin.
46:12And some are going as far as saying that there is zero doubt
46:16that there is a non-human intelligence in our world
46:18and that it is interacting with humanity.
46:21Add to that in the civilian space, how many thousands of people
46:24have reported some direct encounter or some direct effect
46:29via an encounter with either craft or entity?
46:32I mean, we're talking about tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of people
46:36if people are given the chance to communicate their story without ridicule
46:40and without efforts to directly obfuscate that.
46:43So I think we need to move up the evidentiary curve
46:47starting with testimony, starting with photo, video, sensor, multi-sensor data,
46:53starting with testimony from military pilots, personnel, government acting officials.
47:00Like we move up that curve in order to put pressure on those who have the hard evidence.
47:05But, you know, if we just stop there and say, well, without that,
47:09we can't even entertain the possibility.
47:11I think we're really shooting ourselves in the foot.
47:15What do you think are some of the biggest moments that we've seen
47:19outside of the government space?
47:23I'm talking about the Phoenix lights or other UFO sightings
47:28that have happened in front of tens or hundreds or thousands of people.
47:33What are the biggest ones to you?
47:35And how important are those in terms of people's consciousness of this phenomenon?
47:40Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, all reports are valuable.
47:45They should all be considered and taken in.
47:47But I think, you know, starting with the most credible, with multiple witnesses
47:52who are individuals with real careers on the line
47:56that have no personal interest in coming forward
47:59and putting their professional life at stake to say,
48:01I saw something, this is what it did.
48:04You know, those sailors in the 2004 Nimitz case,
48:08that video was brought forward in 2017 alongside the New York Times article.
48:13I mean, go listen to Kevin Day.
48:15Go listen to some of the individuals who were on deck that day,
48:18who saw the radar information come through,
48:20who Tim Gallaudet got the email from his superior saying,
48:26what the heck is going on? This is anomalous
48:28and we're gonna have to stop the flight exercise in order to deal with it.
48:32After which that email was wiped from his device
48:36as well as those other acting officials parallel to him.
48:40I mean, this is significant.
48:43And in some cases, there is multi-sensor data backing it up.
48:47You know, the Aguadilla UFO case in Puerto Rico,
48:50where this transmedium craft, you know, moving over the airport,
48:54goes out into the water, into the water, arises, splits into multiple vehicles.
48:59I mean, there is solid video footage of this.
49:02Some of this video footage has been verified by the Defense Department.
49:06So, I mean, just starting at that level, I think is key.
49:09I know there have been mass witness events like Phoenix Lights,
49:12which I think remains as one of the most important sightings in US history.
49:17I think there are also cases such as the 1982 Ukraine ICBM incident
49:23that was brought forward out of the USSR by George Knapp,
49:26in which UFOs hovered over a nuclear armed base in the USSR,
49:32USSR Ukraine, and put those missiles into an active launch sequence
49:38that could not be stopped by the personnel of that base.
49:41This triggered, in part, a massive investigation by the Ministry of Defense in the USSR.
49:47They were alarmed by it.
49:48They undertook one of the largest UFO studies possibly in history surrounding it.
49:52So, you know, if these craft are able to put our nuclear weapons into a launch sequence
49:57or to deactivate them in the context of deterrence within the Cold War setting,
50:03I mean, I don't think it's logical yet to jump to that,
50:07to thinking that that's a message of peace.
50:09I think it's a direct incursion and a show more of force and capability
50:14possibly to impress the militaries of the world
50:17to cow to this presence that has such capabilities.
50:20So, I mean, there are so many indications that make it very clear
50:26that something anomalous is in our world, operating in ways we don't understand.
50:31Go into the oceans, there's a whole record of USOs that's been well documented.
50:35And I know Richard Dolan is in the process of writing a three-volume set of the highest,
50:42highest credibility, most solid USO cases in history
50:45to demonstrate that this is not an aerospace phenomenon.
50:48It's a whole Earth system phenomenon.
50:51And if we don't understand our oceans and what's operating in our oceans off our coastlines,
50:57that's a major concern, you know,
50:59for those who are tasked with defending human interests and public safety.
51:04We've been speaking about this mostly in a very contemporary modern context,
51:09but there's a lot of mounting evidence going by hieroglyphics,
51:14cave paintings, whatnot, and other types of various evidence
51:19that there may have been contact with extraterrestrials dating back,
51:26you know, generations or millennia.
51:29What is your opinion on that?
51:31How far back do you think this goes?
51:33Have they always been around in your view?
51:37Well, I think, you know, naturally this phenomenon is going to make us question
51:42and revise our notions of human origins, human history, the story of our civilization.
51:47I think that's healthy. I think that's a part of what society needs to go through.
51:52So to say that I do think what we're dealing with now is a qualitatively,
51:57quantitatively distinct phenomenon from what might have transpired in ancient times.
52:03This is clearly a 20th century event in my view.
52:07Not to say it's the only contact event, but it is distinct, I would say.
52:11When you look at the number of craft, their behavior, how they've interacted with humanity,
52:16we simply don't have an ancient record that substantiates the claim that who's here now was here then.
52:23I think there are indications that someone might have been here then,
52:27but how do we verify that those entities are the same that are in our world presently?
52:32It's very evident in my view that how the UFO phenomenon and when and around what events,
52:39it began to become so high volume and global.
52:43There are indications there as to the possible intent of the visitors,
52:47you know, the alarm at regarding our nuclear escalations and use of nuclear weapons,
52:52for example, the technology that we have that could potentially interface
52:56or even integrate with technologies of non-human intelligences.
53:00I mean, there are strong indications that what we did in the 20th century on Earth propelled a new kind of visitation.
53:08And, you know, when you go back into the historical record, there are indications,
53:11but it's very difficult to correlate that to the present.
53:15And, you know, basically the utility of ancient sightings is not as good as the sightings we have today,
53:21where we have cameras, sensor data, you know, ways that people can capture reports in the moment
53:29versus, you know, as word of mouth or, you know, oral history or oral tradition.
53:33So I think we need to, in the long sense, revise our notions or at least question them of human origins.
53:40But in the immediate sense, we have to deal with the entities and the forces that might be present in our world now.
53:47That's the urgency and the consequence we're faced with.
53:50And to the degree that we expand away from that to consider every data point,
53:54to basically go on a parade of possibilities around the block, you know,
53:59with novel theories and everyone wants to be, you know, have the next great idea,
54:03when there are more probable explanations staring us in the face, I think.
54:09Reid, I can't thank you enough for your time.
54:10This has been a great conversation. It could go on a lot longer, but we're almost out of time.
54:15I was just hoping that we could end it off by giving the audience a little bit of a hopeful message.
54:23To anybody who's concerned about where this might be leading,
54:26what would you say to somebody who has doubts about the impact that this might have on society or people's lives fundamentally?
54:37Yeah, for sure. Well, you know, we're all looking at the news every day
54:40and we're all looking at the dismal picture of world affairs, you know, conflict, nuclear escalation.
54:46It's very alarming. And, you know, our society as a global society is in really rough shape.
54:52Unity and cooperation is at its lowest point.
54:55The potential for regional or even global conflict, I would say, is probably at its highest point since the end of the Cold War.
55:01So the potential that there is a fundamentally unifying event taking place that could unify our species as a human species,
55:11as a human family via contact with non-human entities, I think is extremely exciting.
55:16I think there are indications that it's more than just a pipe dream.
55:20It's a real possibility. It's really possible when you look at the information and the historical,
55:25evidential record that has been compiled over decades since 1947, right?
55:31And so the potential of this to bring us together is considerable.
55:35I think we need to thread a careful course.
55:38Basically, opportunism and competition over non-human technologies would be the divider, right?
55:43But contact could be the unifier.
55:46And I think people need to expand out of this purely human-centered view of the universe,
55:52this purely human experience that we've been living to suggest maybe we're part of a larger ecosystem of life.
55:59Maybe we need to get involved with that ecosystem ultimately.
56:03And what could that do for our world as we struggle in this state of isolation and ignorance regarding the ecosystem itself?
56:11We should really not destroy ourselves as a global society before we have the chance to realize what we're a part of.
56:18And I think that possibility is within reach and it's not just within the reach of the powers that be.
56:24I mean, I would put this firmly in the hands of the citizens.
56:28If we're not the human species, who are we talking about? It's you and me.
56:31We are human. We are prime actors in this storyline.
56:37And I think people need to claim that agency, get involved, learn about the phenomenon, learn what's happened,
56:44think through it logically, cautiously, responsibly, which is one of the things I focus on teaching people to do.
56:51And basically, as we think through it,
56:55we can begin to experience the benefit of what this might entail for the human species as we go forward.
57:01That's a great message. Thank you so much for your insight.
57:04Thank you, everybody who watched.
57:06Please check out Reid's website and his podcast, Emergent.
57:09I've been devouring it. It's great.
57:12Lots of great insights there. And I'm sure that this is the first of many such conversations that we'll have about UAPs
57:20because it's a topic that touches everybody.
57:23So I think it's really worth discussing in great detail.
57:26And I look forward to the next one. Thank you, Rob.
57:29Great to be here with you.