In un'intervista esclusiva con Euronews a Budapest, il nuovo Ministro degli Esteri della Georgia Maka Botchorishvili ha messo in dubbio che le proteste dei gruppi pro-UE nel suo Paese possano davvero essere definite “pacifiche”.
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00:00Giorgia's prospects of becoming a member of the EU are bleaker than ever.
00:13The conflict between a pro-European public and a government that sometimes seems to be leaning towards Russia is threatening to escalate.
00:22So what's next?
00:23I spoke to Giorgia's new foreign minister, Maka Bociorishvili, for the Europe Conversation.
00:32Welcome to the program, Minister. It's great to have you on.
00:35Hello, thank you for inviting me. Thank you for your interest.
00:38Now, you have been in office just for a few weeks. What are your first impressions?
00:45Well, first days in the office, not easy period for Giorgia.
00:49We have plenty of challenges that we face, and of course, we have to handle this situation.
00:57I had a couple of possibilities to meet my colleagues,
01:02and we need quite a work to ensure that Giorgia is represented and presented to the entire world from the correct angle.
01:14Now, as we speak, roughly 20% of Giorgia's territory is still occupied by Russia.
01:21Now, at the OSC Ministerial Council in Malta just a few days ago,
01:26you called Russia's war in Ukraine a continuation of its aggressive actions in Georgia.
01:33How do you want to get these territories back?
01:36Well, that is not an easy issue.
01:39Since our independence, we face this conflict with Russia, and 20% of Georgia's territories are still occupied,
01:48and we have military presence of Russia there.
01:51That makes Georgia extremely vulnerable when it comes to security challenges and facing that.
01:57This is not an easy task, but our policy is very clear,
02:01that we consider restoration of Georgia's territorial integrity only through a peaceful way,
02:09and that can be a reconciliation policy.
02:12That same meeting in Malta was also attended by your Russian counterpart, Sergei Lavrov.
02:19Did you speak to him?
02:21We don't have diplomatic relations with Russia since 2008 after Russia's invasion of Georgia,
02:30and we don't have communication and official channels of communication with Russian counterparts.
02:37So, this is not the case in this case as well. We don't have communication.
02:44Now, one would think that Georgia and Ukraine are on the same side when it comes to Russia,
02:51yet Volodymyr Zelensky, the Ukrainian president,
02:55has accused the Georgian Dream Party of pushing Georgia towards dependence on Russia.
03:02What's your reaction?
03:04Well, we hear that speculations that I can call these claims only speculations about Georgia.
03:12The Georgian Dream is in power for 12 years now,
03:16and in this period nobody can find anything that this government has done in favor of Russia.
03:23But today it is very popular to divide the world into white and black,
03:29and if somebody wants to make an easy negative impression about somebody,
03:35it is easier to claim that somebody is pro-Russian or pro-Putin.
03:40And unfortunately that is the case,
03:43although Georgia has very clear policy when it comes to supporting Ukraine.
03:48Let's talk about what happened over the past few weeks in Georgia
03:52and the reason why Georgia was in the international headlines.
03:57Your government's decision to suspend Georgia's EU membership bid
04:02triggered protests in Tbilisi and elsewhere,
04:05in which over 300 protesters were arrested and brutally beaten by police.
04:10Now, according to Georgia's public defender,
04:1380% of those who were detained reported deliberate punitive violence.
04:20Several opposition leaders were also arrested.
04:23Things that were severely criticized by the EU, European governments and the United States.
04:31What do you tell these governments in response?
04:34First of all, that is a very wrong interpretation of the Georgian government's decision.
04:39We have not suspended the European integration process.
04:43We have not suspended negotiations,
04:46because negotiations on Georgia's membership in the European Union have not started yet,
04:52because there is no EU decision on this topic.
04:55When it comes to reactions from the Georgian society or protests in the streets of Tbilisi,
05:03of course, everybody has rights to protests, but rights to peaceful protests.
05:08Unfortunately, I have to say that we cannot really call these protests necessarily peaceful,
05:16because the violent groups that were acting with the fireworks,
05:21their target was police forces and we have around 200 policemen injured
05:27and some of them really received very serious injuries.
05:32It is very hard to say that it is peaceful protest.
05:36But on the other hand, if there is anything,
05:39when we see that police is exceeding its limits of reaction,
05:46of course, there should be reaction from relevant bodies.
05:50And if we condemn, of course, violence should be condemned,
05:53but it should be condemned from both sides and not just one-sided.
05:59So the relationship between the EU and Georgia is difficult at the moment.
06:05The accession process had already been stopped in the summer by the European Council
06:11in reaction to Georgia's controversial foreign influence law.
06:15The impression in Brussels was that Georgia is kind of turning away from Europe
06:21and tilting towards Moscow.
06:25What is the path forward now?
06:29Well, first of all, we have to trust each other.
06:33Georgia's European bid is a very serious decision.
06:37When we applied for EU membership, it was not a joke.
06:41But unfortunately, that very topic always is kind of subject for speculations
06:47and the same is happening all the time.
06:50How European integration can be linked to transparency law.
06:56We call this law transparency because this is only about transparency of foreign funds in Georgia.
07:04And we had very clear explanation for this legislation.
07:08It was nothing against civil society organizations or their work.
07:14It was about just making clear who is funding what in Georgia
07:20and to have a kind of preventive mechanism for negative foreign influence.
07:27So this is a very important topic for Georgia's stable democratic development
07:33and that is something that we are communicating to our European partners.
07:39Numerous polls in Georgia show that the Georgian public is largely in favor of EU membership,
07:47even NATO membership.
07:49Now, Georgian Dream repeatedly states that it supports these aspirations,
07:55yet relations with both EU and NATO have deteriorated rapidly,
08:01largely due to decisions and actions by Georgian Dream.
08:06Why should the Georgian public believe Georgian Dream when it says it supports their aspirations
08:13when the party's actions seem to indicate otherwise?
08:17Facts. You need to judge according facts and look at the facts.
08:23And this government made Georgia frontrunner when it comes to implementation of reforms
08:30and positioning Georgia as well advanced when it comes to association with the European Union.
08:38This is also the same government that was participating to different EU-led missions.
08:48Not because we had any interest in Central Africa or anywhere else,
08:53only interest for us was and is to show our commitment when it comes to shared values
08:59and when it comes to be together with our European partners.
09:04Why is it then that relations between the European Union and Georgia have deteriorated?
09:11Well, that is a good question.
09:13What is behind all that and why Georgia became quite a subject of criticism,
09:20but this is not new and it's not started yesterday.
09:24If you look back, 2020 is kind of turning point when this kind of criticism started against Georgia
09:35and 2022 was very important date, I would say, when Russia invaded Ukraine
09:42and the security challenges increased vis-à-vis Georgia.
09:49We were criticized for not imposing sanctions on Russia and we were criticized for different things.
09:56But unfortunately, there is not that fair look at Georgia's situation
10:07when it comes to countering security challenges and ensuring peace and stability in the country
10:14because there is no other that vulnerable country in Europe as Georgia is today.
10:21I guess the fundamental question is this.
10:24Does Georgia really want to be an EU member and why?
10:29Well, it has different reasons.
10:32And first is emotional connection with Europe, I would say.
10:39And it goes back to history and it goes back to how Georgians feel and Georgians' identity.
10:47And that is very much emotional connection with European Union
10:52and that's why also vast majority of Georgians are supporting European integration.
10:59Another is very practical reason why we want to be part of the European Union
11:06because of quite complicated geography and because of our intention to be part of the Union,
11:14which is, I would say, the best Union today, the best possible option that we may have in the world
11:23in terms of human rights, in terms of economic development and many other things
11:29where you would be wishing to place your country.
11:35And it will require some efforts because this relationship is not in the best shape today.
11:42I will not lie, I will not be naive, but I believe that it is possible and it is doable.
11:49All right. Thank you very much, Minister, for a fascinating conversation.
11:53Thank you very much for your questions.