A recent prisoner swap between the U.S. and China caught the world’s attention. On this special episode of Zoom In Zoom Out, Wenchi Yu based in Washington, D.C. brings us dispatches from Uyghur-American activist Nury Turkel, whose mother was among the three Uyghurs on the flight bound for the U.S..
In Part 2 of the two-part interview, Turkel dives into the U.S Uyghur policy, which he believes was what made the prisoner exchange possible and that he expects continuity in the second Trump presidency.
In Part 2 of the two-part interview, Turkel dives into the U.S Uyghur policy, which he believes was what made the prisoner exchange possible and that he expects continuity in the second Trump presidency.
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00:00U.S.-China tensions dominate global news headlines. However, a recent prisoner swap
00:18brought good news that uplifted many who have been working behind the scenes to secure the
00:23freedom of some people. An agreement on prison swap was reached between President Biden and
00:29President Xi Jinping during the latest APEC summit in Peru. Among those who were allowed
00:35to come to the United States is Aishan Mamet, a 73-year-old Uyghur from Xinjiang,
00:41who's the mother of Nuri Turkel, a high-profile Uyghur-American activist, a former chair of the
00:48U.S. Congressional Commission on International Religious Freedom, and a fellow at Hudson
00:53Institute. This is a two-part interview with Nuri Turkel. Previously on the program,
00:59Nuri has shared his family's journey. For the next segment of our conversation,
01:04we discuss the plight of Uyghurs in Xinjiang and U.S. policies on this challenging human rights
01:11issue. I have to ask you, you also mentioned this, your mom is not an American citizen.
01:20Why do you think Beijing authorities wanted this swap during this time? And then second,
01:28lumping your mom together with a few others. I may sound speculative, but now wearing my
01:36think tank hat, I could make some general comments. No one told me from either side why
01:43have things happened the way it happened. First of all, I do know when I was told by
01:52our senior officials that this matter has been a priority. I believe in that. I've been sanctioned
01:58by both Xi Jinping and Putin. This was clear retaliation against me for my service for the
02:05American people. And this is a clear retaliation against me as part of the transnational repression
02:11strategy that leadership in Beijing did not like what I did, what I have done as a free
02:18person in the United States, advocating global justice, accountability, human rights. I think
02:24that made the U.S. government officials, members of Congress concerned. At the time when they start
02:30being very aggressive in their abuses against my family. Other advantages, I think, the easier part
02:38of it. Of course, I was not involved in the intricate negotiation. And I think that the
02:44fact that my mom was not in prison may have made it easier. There are a lot of Uyghur American
02:49families are either missing or known to be in the prison camps. So that's one. And then the third
02:55thing is that on a purely humanitarian ground, I think the U.S. government made a really impactful
03:01compelling case that my mother is a widow, elderly lady who has American family. She has no
03:10plan to be activist or advocate like her son. So I think that assurance may have been effectively
03:17communicated to the Chinese. Did you get the sense that Beijing was hoping by releasing your mom
03:24to you that in some way you would be less vocal about some of the Uyghur issues globally?
03:35The Uyghur issue is just part of broader policy work that I work on. Beijing had made a mistake
03:41from the beginning, which was every single time when I talk about China related issues,
03:47specifically on the human rights issues, the Uyghur issues, everybody's so tuned in to listen
03:52about my mother's kind of weird home confinement. She was never been imprisoned in the modern
04:00time, but she was not free to go wherever she wishes to go. Had they let her go two, three
04:06years ago, the issue may have attracted less attention because the story was so compelling.
04:12There's no single like congressional testimonies or my media interviews or my written work or even
04:19speaking engagements around the world. I'm talking about like places like Taiwan, Japan,
04:24Moldova. There's no occasion, no event that my mom's name didn't come up. I'm not in a position
04:31to say anything with certainty, but from a diplomatic engagement perspective, I think
04:37the way that the U.S. government managed to have the Chinese to commit, I mean, this is the decision
04:42done by Xi Jinping as evident. President asked Xi Jinping, let my mom to be included.
04:49I think I can see that the Chinese wanted to show the goodwill.
04:54Why do the Chinese choose to show goodwill at this point?
04:59We are in the transition period. We have a new administration. They have dealt with first Trump
05:06administration. They may have expecting on the tariff issues and the choke point technology
05:12restriction issues. They may expecting even more strict policy implementation.
05:19But this is to the Biden administration, which is outgoing.
05:22They're both. You look at the readout and look at the press coverage. They wanted to pass on
05:28a message to Washington that they have a good intention to work, continue to work. It's a
05:33little bit easier for me to speak to the possible reasons that the U.S. government may have been
05:39able to pull this up. The United States, to your listeners, this may be a news.
05:44United States is the only country that has a Uyghur policy very similar by two successive
05:51administrations, starting with the acknowledgement of the atrocities as genocide and crimes against
05:57humanity. Subsequent entity list designation by the BIS at the Commerce Department,
06:03global sanctions and continued DHS entity list designation.
06:08So even in countries in Europe that obviously share similar values to the United States
06:17have no specific Uyghur policies?
06:20None. So to me, I'm so pleased beyond words.
06:24They wanted to also talk a little bit about the transition to the Trump administration.
06:30As you said, you speculated that China wanted to send a goodwill message to the United States,
06:38to the incoming administration. And what do you think the incoming administration's
06:47human rights policies, specifically with regards to the Uyghurs will look like?
06:53We know that Trump has announced two of his nominees, Marco Rubio and Mike Walls,
06:59whom I believe you probably also worked closely with over the years. So you probably know them
07:05very well. Do you think they're going to continue or do things slightly different
07:11than the Biden administration?
07:13That's a terrific question. Based on the precedent, I am cautiously optimistic
07:19that there will be at least continuity of Trump 1.0 in the Trump 2.0. Because the China policy
07:28in the previous Trump administration, maybe some reasonable people disagree with the methodology,
07:34the strategies, the recognizing, identifying the symptoms, even though there's no prescription,
07:42was a really good start. You can have a different opinion towards President Biden
07:48or Trump. The fact that both of these presidents' policies are somewhat, for the most part, similar
07:56speaks volume about the seriousness of the American people.
07:59You mean their similar policies towards China?
08:02Yes. And specifically on Uyghurs. There are more than 80 global brands been implicated in
08:08forced labor practices. We talk about global justice and accountability. The United States
08:14is in a very unique position to encourage some sort of documentation and enforcement mechanism
08:20put in place. Only 10 countries in the parliaments fulfilled its treaty obligation under the genocide
08:26convention to give the atrocities proper name. That includes Taiwanese parliament, surprisingly.
08:32That's the real courage. I believe somebody like Senator Rubio, who is the original sponsor of the
08:39Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act, and he's been criticizing the executive branch for inadequate
08:46enforcement. I anticipate him to be continuing. Representative Mike Walsh is also kind of
08:53in tandem, very critical of China's treatment of the Uyghurs. He called out the Biden administration
09:00several times for not doing enough on the Uyghur genocide. One other person that we also need to
09:05mention, Alex Wong, who was going to be the principal deputy national security advisor.
09:10He also has a stellar record on China. But as you know, diplomacy is conducted or foreign affairs
09:17adjusted based on the daily events. It's not an academic research. One example, everything seemed
09:23to be going so beautifully in the early part of the Biden administration. And the balloons.
09:30Balloon and then up until the point that Russia invades Ukraine. So starting 2022,
09:36the Uyghur genocide related discussion kind of escaped the public discourse. But in the background,
09:42there were a lot of actions been taken. I can't even keep account of how many entity list
09:47designations been announced by the DHS. From that point of view, I'm very confident. But at the same
09:52time, we have different actors in the White House. I wanted to ask, what else do you want
09:58the world to know about Xinjiang and Uyghurs? One, there's no organized separatists or terrorism
10:04in China that have been blamed on the Uyghur people. Even if there's a violent incident,
10:10that should be treated as a law enforcement, not a collective punishment. So I would like people to
10:16be mindful when Beijing plays counterterrorism card. Under the circumstance, for example,
10:22in the United States, American people were attacked by real terrorists. We lost more than
10:273,000 people, but the American government never set up concentration camp to collectively punish
10:33people or forcing them to renounce their religious belief. Then the second thing that I would like
10:38specifically those in Taiwan to know is that there's so much parallel, at least in the
10:45ideological front, what Xi Jinping's China has done to people like the Uyghurs and Hong Kongers,
10:52and its attempt to make the Taiwanese people to believe they have been somewhat
10:57intoxicated with a mind virus. When I was visiting Taiwan, days before my visit,
11:04Chinese ambassador to France accused President Tsai Ing-wen, saying that she intoxicated people
11:11with the separatist ideology. It's exactly the same type of message. As somebody who was born
11:16in re-education camp, I know exactly what and how it works. And he was quite comfortably saying that
11:23Taiwanese people should be re-educated. I know what that means. So I want your listeners,
11:28specifically in Taiwan, to be mindful that the disinformation can really negatively affect the
11:34healthy, vibrant Taiwan democracy and the will of the people. And then the last thing that I
11:39want people to know, would be mindful of that the United States did not create the so-called Uyghur
11:46problem. The United States government, along with others like-minded governments, have responded
11:54to this collective punishment we thought was part of the ugly history. After the Second World War,
12:00we did not believe that people will be subject to collective punishment because of their ethnicity
12:07and religious background. We never thought that women would be subject to that kind of brutal
12:12treatment and go through forced abortion, forced sterilization, and close to one million children
12:18be taken away. If the United States did not speak out, what will they say about us? What would the
12:24future say about us? What would the children say about us? So the United States is not a protagonist.
12:29When I travel around the world, some reasonable people think that the U.S. government created this
12:35problem to contain China. The United States does not have to create Uyghur problem to contain China.
12:41I wanted to thank you so much for speaking to us and tremendously wonderful news for your family.
12:50We hope to have you back and share with us about other types of work that you're working on and
12:56advocating for on behalf of the United States as well as just people in the world. So thank you,
13:03Nori. Thank you very much. I'm so pleased to have friends and colleagues like yourself who've been
13:09incredibly supportive of my work in general and this long arduous journey. Thank you very much.
13:15This has been a special episode of Zoom In Zoom Out. You can watch both parts of our conversation
13:21with Nori on the Taiwan Plus website. Thank you for joining us. We'll see you next time.
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