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00:00It's 320 on a Wednesday and I know that you, Dan Dibley, know exactly what that means.
00:05I love it.
00:06You better button up.
00:07I get nervous, but it makes me raise my game, I'll be honest.
00:11NFL Films, executive producer, one of our favorites, joining us on the River Islands
00:15guest line.
00:17It's none other than Greg Cosell.
00:18Hi Greg, how we doing?
00:20Gentlemen, what's happening?
00:22Let's see.
00:23What is happening?
00:24Well, we got three football games left, Greg.
00:26That's it.
00:27We do.
00:28We do.
00:29So they tell me.
00:30Yeah, so they tell you.
00:32And I feel like heading into the weekend, one of the things that's really on the mind
00:38of the football fan, and I'm not going to get into whole conspiracy theories or whatever,
00:43but I'm sure you hear everybody complain about the Chiefs and the Refs.
00:49And here's what I wanted to ask you, specific to one thing, and it's actually not even just
00:53Patrick Mahomes.
00:54I've watched Russell Wilson do this.
00:56When you watch on film the quarterback do that kind of last minute slide thing under
01:02the defenders, what do you see there?
01:05Do you believe that there are certain quarterbacks who are sort of using that as a weapon right
01:10now?
01:11Well, I think it's a larger question.
01:13You know, I'm not going to get into, you know, the so-called conspiracy theories.
01:17You know, people always said that, oh, Brady gets all the calls, or this guy gets all the
01:20calls.
01:21I think the larger question now is the colleges are sending more and more quarterbacks to
01:25the NFL that can run.
01:27So the league has to make a decision, in my view, again, you know, what do I know?
01:32They don't ask me my opinion on this.
01:34But I think they have to make a decision as to how you're going to deal with quarterbacks
01:38who run.
01:40Because essentially they become running backs.
01:41That becomes a strength of their game.
01:43You know, Hurts runs, Jaden Daniels runs, Josh Allen runs, Mahomes can run, obviously.
01:52So how are you going to deal, Lamar obviously runs.
01:56There's going to be more and more of those guys.
01:58So how are you going to deal with that?
02:00Because essentially it becomes a foundational part of their game.
02:04It's a way for them to make plays.
02:07And it's a way that offenses call things at times for them to make plays.
02:12So they become runners.
02:14They're running backs at that point in time.
02:16And you know, I think the league is going to have to figure out how to deal with that.
02:20And I think the easy solution would be when you run past the line of scrimmage, you're
02:24no longer a quarterback.
02:25And if you're a running back and you want to slide, you can slide.
02:29But I would recommend you slide early.
02:31Because what we're seeing, Greg, is with the Mahomes play in particular, he slides late
02:36and the two defenders collide with each other.
02:39But it draws a 15 because they came in to try to hit him.
02:42Well, the other issue too, and I don't know if replay can handle this or if someone from
02:48upstairs can handle this and override it, but the issue becomes if the defender starts
02:54his tackle before the quarterback starts his slide, okay, then the defender can't stop.
03:03So they can't make, he's obviously going to hit the guy in the head, but they, you know,
03:08he can't physically stop.
03:10It's not humanly possible for him to stop his body.
03:13So they have to have a way to deal with that.
03:15Because when I watch games, I see defenders start their tackling, you know, movement before
03:22the quarterback starts his slide.
03:25And there's nothing the defender can do with that.
03:27It's not humanly possible.
03:28Exactly.
03:29And I can't help but think about this upcoming weekend with Jaden Daniels, a guy who's become
03:35such a threat in the run game and the way they go about setting it up with, you know,
03:40the read option.
03:41What do you see when you watch Washington?
03:42I know he's a great passer, but Jaden Daniels as a two-way threat, when you watch the film,
03:48what do you see that makes him so potent?
03:51Well, to me, it starts with the fact that he is a very good passer because, and I think
03:56sometimes that now gets overlooked because he is so dynamic a runner.
04:00But I think that he's a really good passer from the pocket.
04:05His ball placement is extremely precise.
04:07He throws a really good deep ball.
04:10I think that Cliff Kingsbury does a really good job as well.
04:13I mean, I was watching the tape this week, you know, and I'm sure you guys watch college
04:16football.
04:17I know you're on the West Coast, so you may not be as focused on the SEC, let's say, as
04:21some others.
04:22But, you know, all of a sudden I'm seeing them run what would be considered a true air
04:27raid concept where you have double stacks with two receivers on each side stack literally
04:33two, three yards from the sideline.
04:36That's a true air raid formation.
04:38And what happens is, is it lightens the box.
04:40You end up with five defenders in the box and then you have Daniels in the shotgun and
04:45somebody's got to account for Daniels because the zone read is always existing in that formation.
04:52So they had a play where Eckler ran for 35 yards from that formation because two guys
04:57went with Daniels and they basically only had a block three guys.
05:01So you know, they're doing a lot of interesting things on offense that make it difficult for
05:05defenses, not only because of the way Daniels can throw, but because of the run game element
05:10that's always prevalent when he's in the shotgun.
05:13Greg Cosell, NFL Films with us on Willard and Dibs.
05:16Before we get too far from Mahomes, I also wanted to ask you this, Greg, because it's
05:21fascinating at an age where so many teams are at least financially prioritizing the
05:26wide receiver position.
05:27And we talk about quarterbacks and what weapons they have.
05:32Here's Mahomes at a team that's now 16-2 and his top receiver was his tight end and
05:39his top wide receiver was a rookie and he only had 600 yards.
05:44What do you see with Mahomes and the way he utilizes his weaponry that seems to make it
05:51so that he can work with less than others?
05:56Well this season has been an anomaly because their pass game has not been very effective.
06:00It's been efficient but not effective and those are two different things.
06:04And Mahomes has not turned the ball over in quite a long time, which by the way is very,
06:09very important.
06:10Now, they still throw the ball a lot, but for instance, this year in terms of passes
06:15that go 20 yards or more in the air from the line of scrimmage, Mahomes has far and away
06:21the worst completion percentage in the NFL.
06:24He's only completed 26% of those throws.
06:27By contrast, Sam Darnold led the NFL in passes that went 20 yards or more from the line of
06:34scrimmage completing 56%.
06:36That's a difference of 30%, which would probably be mind-boggling to some people.
06:42Now, you can do a lot of things on offense and not be great on offense when your defense
06:47is as good as the Chiefs.
06:49But because Mahomes has been a great player and arguably the best quarterback we've seen
06:55in a long time, everybody wants to focus on Mahomes.
07:00But this team has really been built on defense and just efficiency of offense.
07:05That's the way they've played.
07:06You know, when you don't turn it over on offense and your defense is so good, particularly
07:11in those critical fourth-quarter situations, I mean, there was a sequence against Houston
07:15that began with over just about 10 minutes to go and it was a one-score game where Steve
07:20Spagnuolo blitzed three times in a row and that's what he does.
07:23He's the best situational blitzer in the league and it causes all kinds of problems.
07:28So as long as they don't turn it over and they make the opposing offense have to go
07:3270, 80, 90 yards, that's really hard to do against the Chiefs.
07:37And you put your NFL matchup hat on for just a second longer and think about that aspect
07:42of this game with Spagnuolo and the blitzing of the defense against Josh Allen and Buffalo's
07:48offense.
07:50How are they able to manage and navigate against a team like Kansas City that will send a lot
07:57of different pressures against Josh Allen?
07:59Well, Buffalo has been a fascinating study the last couple of weeks because they have
08:03been a run-first team clearly.
08:07And they have obviously believed against Denver in the first round and this week against Baltimore,
08:11who had the best run defense in the league throughout the season, that they could line
08:16up and just play physical football.
08:19And for the most part, it was effective.
08:21This was an odd game for Buffalo in the sense that most of us thought, myself included,
08:26that this would have to be much more of a Josh Allen game.
08:29And in fact, they almost played the game as if Josh Allen wasn't a factor in the game.
08:34As a passer, I'm talking about, obviously he had some critical runs, which he certainly
08:37can do.
08:38But they only threw the ball, I think he had 23 dropbacks in the game, their run-pass ratio
08:44was crazy.
08:45It was like 70% run.
08:48So I don't know what their plan will be this week in Arrowhead.
08:51It's a different situation than playing at home in Buffalo.
08:54So I don't know what their plan is, but it seems to me that they believe that they can
08:59line up and play physical football and work off that.
09:03Greg, before we move too far into the game that's coming, I did have a specific question
09:08about the game that was last week and I wonder what your perspective was.
09:13The Lamar Jackson interception there in the first half, I've seen some suggest that Rashad
09:20Bateman just went the wrong way.
09:22And that's why Lamar threw something that looked like it was 10 yards away from anybody
09:27on his team.
09:28What did you see on that play?
09:31Well, regardless, where Lamar threw the ball, he shouldn't have thrown the ball.
09:38Because the fact is, is he had the post-safety cheated to that side.
09:42So let's say that Bateman should have run straight instead of angling it to the sideline,
09:47it still would have been intercepted because Rapp was right there.
09:51He basically threw it to Rapp.
09:53So he just, only he could tell you why he threw it, I can't answer that question.
09:59But regardless of whether Bateman ran the right route or the wrong route, where Lamar
10:04threw the ball, it would have been intercepted.
10:07And are we now all officially out on Lamar Jackson because he lost the game, Greg?
10:12What do you mean by out?
10:13So in other words, they should get rid of Lamar and go to the quarterback store and
10:19get another quarterback?
10:20And I'm just kind of playing off what you said last week about the quarterback store
10:22and just...
10:23Yeah, yeah.
10:24Get him, Greg.
10:25Yeah, what was your assessment though overall of Lamar?
10:27Because I had a debate with a colleague here who will remain nameless, not my partner Mark
10:31who's level-headed, but the idea of who to blame.
10:35And I didn't think that Lamar was necessarily that bad in the game.
10:40When you look at the tape, what did you make of Lamar Jackson's performance in that loss?
10:44Well, I didn't think he played poorly.
10:46I mean, the interception was obviously uncharacteristically poor.
10:49And people then say, well, that shows he can't play in big games because he didn't do that
10:53in the regular season.
10:54He made a mistake.
10:55You know, by the way, there have been teams that have won big games where the quarterback
10:59has made a bad throw or two in a game and they still win.
11:03And who knows what would have happened if Andrews didn't fumble and Andrews caught the
11:07two-point conversion.
11:08Who knows?
11:09There's a lot of plays in games that people don't even think about that I see when I watch
11:13tape and see every single play that could potentially be game-changing plays that people
11:18never even think about.
11:21And obviously the Lamar fumble was a fluky play.
11:24I mean, how many times have we seen him do really cool stuff to avoid pressure and say,
11:28man, Lamar Jackson is phenomenal.
11:30Well, that time he tried to do really cool stuff to avoid pressure.
11:34And who knows, maybe because the ball was slick, he fumbled.
11:38And you know, I love these conversations.
11:39And obviously on Monday, that's all we saw on social media about people trying to decide.
11:44And I just kept thinking to myself, what is their final point?
11:48You know, is there a point that they should get rid of Lamar Jackson and get another quarterback?
11:52Just like if Josh Allen loses this week and he'll be 0-4 against the Mahomes in the playoffs,
11:58so what should the Bills go out and get another quarterback?
12:01There's no point to these conversations.
12:03Greg, I also wonder about a statement you made last week.
12:08It sounded like you said that Jalen Hurts, at least recently, wasn't seeing things very
12:15well and they win again.
12:18But I wonder what your thoughts are on that offense currently and whether or not it's
12:23leaning almost a little bit too one-dimensional on Saquon Barkley.
12:27Well, I would answer it this way.
12:30What does every offensive coach want?
12:33Explosive plays, right?
12:34Isn't that what every coach wants?
12:35Now we normally associate explosive plays in the pass game.
12:39Percentage-wise, explosive plays happen in the pass game, right?
12:43Isn't that normally the case?
12:44Yeah.
12:45Yeah.
12:46Yeah.
12:47Well, they get explosive plays in the run game.
12:49They had three 44-plus-yard touchdowns last week, okay?
12:54That's a lot.
12:55You know, that doesn't happen very often.
12:57So I would answer it this way.
13:00He knows what Jalen Hurts is, by the way.
13:02There's no mystery about Jalen Hurts.
13:05He's not a great progression reader.
13:06He's not seeing things well.
13:08I spoke to someone who used to be in the Eagles organization, is not now, but studies all
13:12the tape, and said they just can't figure out why Jalen, from a progression reading
13:18standpoint, just seems to be getting worse.
13:20So let's leave that for the moment.
13:22But there's a couple of things that separate this offense.
13:25Number one, the run game.
13:27They do get explosive plays.
13:29Number two, and you got to think about this.
13:31This is really important.
13:33The Eagles and the Bills are like this as well.
13:35They're essentially four down offenses, especially from the plus 40 going in, if they have four
13:42yards or less to the line of gain.
13:44That changes the way defenses have to play.
13:48Because normally, if you're a defense, and let's say it's third and 10, and the offense
13:51throws a pass and gains seven, you feel good, hey man, we got them off the field.
13:56Not the Eagles, not the Bills.
13:58They're four down offenses, depending on where they are on the field.
14:03So that changes everything for how a defense has to play.
14:07And that can't be overstated.
14:11And when you look at that matchup, to me Greg, it feels a little bit like styles make fights
14:15kind of a game, because Washington wants to score a little bit more quickly, Philadelphia
14:20wants to use all four downs like you talked about and grind it out.
14:24What's the recipe for Washington, in terms of what you see on film, for them to be able
14:29to get the game where they want it to be?
14:32Well, by the way, Philly doesn't mind if Barkley runs 50 yards for a touchdown, just so you
14:36know.
14:37Yeah, fair.
14:38And he's done that a number of times.
14:39I don't think any team would mind that if their running back did that.
14:43Right, right.
14:44You know, the number one thing, and this is not a profound statement, but if you're the
14:52commanders, you're going to have to put the Eagles in longer yardage situations.
14:57The problem teams have when they play the Eagles is getting them into third and nine,
15:03okay?
15:04Because what happens, Barkley this year has been better than he's ever been in his career.
15:08You know, one of the things that's separate, look, we know Barkley can take it to the house,
15:11we know that.
15:12But what really separates backs, Derrick Henry's been like this his whole career, Barkley's
15:16been like this this year, better than ever, is when it's blocked for two, he's getting
15:22six.
15:23And that changes the whole dynamic of a game, because second and four is a whole different
15:28animal than second, you know, in eight or nine.
15:31So it's really difficult to make the Eagles and put them in truly long yardage situations.
15:38And that, like I said, from a defensive standpoint, that changes the dynamic of how you play.
15:44What did you see in Jared Goff's performance, and was it out of character?
15:48No, I don't think it was, and I don't think he played poorly, I mean, I thought the interception
15:53return for a touchdown was an absolutely, and I don't know, you know, you never know
15:58about how coaches call games, but I thought it turned out to be a brilliant defensive
16:03call, because essentially what happened on that play, it was really kind of cool.
16:07All they did was play cover two, but they tweaked cover two, and they actually dropped
16:12out a defensive tackle as an underneath coverage defender.
16:16So what that did is it allowed the normal underneath defender, who was Igbeneheny, to
16:23play deeper and get more depth.
16:25So Goff, who works between the numbers as well as any quarterback in the league, was
16:30forced to throw the ball higher over Igbe, because he was deeper, because they had dropped
16:36the de-tackle out, so he's kind of air-mailed it, and that was just great defense, a great
16:41concept.
16:42But overall, did Goff play poorly?
16:44No.
16:45I mean, he just missed Williams on what would have been a 70-yard touchdown, which we've
16:49seen him throw this year.
16:51I mean, he missed him by a foot.
16:52So no, I don't think Goff played poorly.
16:55You mentioned earlier about stack formations with, you know, two-by-two and that kind of
16:59opening up the middle, and you had me thinking about the 49ers and how they have everything
17:04much closer to the tackle box and much closer to the line of scrimmage.
17:09Is that something, when you look at the film, that the 49ers need to be more diverse about
17:13in terms of their formation?
17:16Well, there's many ways to play.
17:18I mean, let me ask you this, because, you know, given the year that they had, it's easy
17:22to start thinking, well, what's the problem?
17:24Do you think the 49ers have had a bad offense over the last four, five, six years?
17:29Not four, five, or six, Greg, but I do think that they get into certain patterns of a lot
17:34of tight splits, a lot of tight formations, and an inability to do something different.
17:39They fall behind and they can't go four wide.
17:42They can't spread teams out, and I wonder, when you look at the film, if you see them
17:46being too unidimensional.
17:50That's a hard question to answer, just because, you know, I don't know how they see their
17:54own players.
17:55They may feel that this is what their players do best.
17:58I mean, for the most part, the Rams do a lot of the same things.
18:03To some degree, formationally, I'm talking about, you know, maybe the route.
18:06I mean, obviously, the Rams are a heavy 11 personnel offense with three wide.
18:10The 49ers are not.
18:13You know, so will Kyle Shanahan look at his team this offseason and feel like, hey, you
18:19know, there are some tweaks we have to make?
18:21Coaches do that all the time.
18:22Even the teams that win the Super Bowl do that.
18:25You know, it's interesting.
18:26We're talking about the Chiefs, and the Chiefs, in terms of their past game this year, it's
18:30not been very good.
18:32So they could win the Super Bowl this year, and therefore people will say they're great,
18:36but their past game hasn't been very good.
18:38That wouldn't be, I mean, could it be great this week and next week?
18:42It could be.
18:43But throughout this season, it hasn't been.
18:46So I'm sure Andy Reid in the offseason will tweak his passing game to some degree.
18:51I think coaches do that all the time.
18:53So you know, that's a hard question to answer, because a lot of it, too, has to do with the
18:58players that you have.
19:01To that end, and realizing that obviously you have to have the players mixing in with
19:06the coaches, I wonder what you think about, and this is only a soft rumor at this point,
19:12but rumored that the 49ers are at least thinking about talking to Pete Carroll for their open
19:18defensive coordinator position.
19:21What did you see from his defenses when you last saw him in the league?
19:27Well, Pete Carroll can probably do anything on the defensive side of the ball, because
19:31he's been coaching for so long.
19:33So he has a wide range in his treasure chest, as it were.
19:39You know, look, I think the two most important people in any game, and I heard Bill Belichick
19:47say this, and he's a lot smarter than I am, I think that the two most important people
19:51are the offensive coordinator and the defensive coordinator, not the players as much.
19:56Everybody always says you've got to have players, well of course, everybody knows that, but
20:00I think Pete Carroll can go any number of ways depending on his personnel.
20:04Don't forget, whether he was the one who was actively the reason for the legion of boom,
20:11or that was Dan Quinn who started it, we don't know the answer to that.
20:14We're not there.
20:15Then he made some changes because the league kind of picked up on how to attack and beat
20:19cover three.
20:20So I mean, I think that Pete Carroll has evolved over time because of just the way teams start.
20:28Everything that happens in the league becomes cyclical.
20:30It's like, remember back in the day Tony Dungy with cover two, and that was all the rage,
20:35and then teams figured out how to beat it.
20:36So teams still play cover two, just like teams still play cover three, because there's not
20:40a thousand defenses, but it just comes down to degrees and what you do with the personnel
20:45you have in given situations.
20:47Greg, always wonderful to have you, and we look forward to when you take a moment to
20:52break down this tape and tell us about our performance today.
20:57Not bad, guys.
20:58Not bad.
20:59Okay.
21:00All right.
21:01We'll take it.
21:02Not bad.
21:03We'll take it.
21:04All right, Greg.
21:06All right, guys.
21:07Appreciate it, as always.