French schools will introduce mandatory sex education classes covering topics such as consent, gender identity and online pornography from September, despite opposition from conservative groups. FRANCE 24's Sharon Gaffney speaks to Kristen Barber, Associate Professor and Chair of Race, Ethnic and Gender Studies at the University of Missouri-Kansas City. She says that focusing on consent from a very young age is key to combating rampant sexual abuse and advancing human rights.
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00:00This is Apropos. Schools here in France are to introduce mandatory sex education classes,
00:08covering topics such as consent, gender identity and online pornography from September. The
00:14reformed syllabus has faced pushback though from conservative groups, leading to a decision
00:20to delay discussion of gender identity until children are older and in high school.
00:27In many countries, sex is considered a taboo topic, but France's revamped sex education
00:34syllabus aims to change that. Children as young as kindergarten age right up to high
00:39school, including in private schools, will learn about consent, gender identity and online
00:44pornography. For younger children, the focus will be on emotions and basic consent through
00:49everyday scenarios, such as asking permission to sit next to someone. As pupils get older,
00:55they will delve into more complex issues. They will look at gender stereotypes, sexual
00:59violence and differences between biological sex and personal identity. France's education
01:05minister believes it can help combat rising sexism and sexual assault against minors.
01:11A recent report released this month from the country's government body, the High Council
01:15for Equality between Men and Women, found that 94% of women aged 15 to 24 think it's
01:21harder to be a woman today, up 14 points on 2023. The organization's president said
01:28Women are more feminist and men are more masculinist, especially young people. The French expect
01:35political leaders to take action against sexism, in particular by finally introducing courses
01:41in education for emotional, relational and sexual life, which they widely approve of.
01:49Despite this wide approval, conservative groups are resistant to such a change. One group,
01:55SOS Education, which is closely associated with the Catholic Church, say the new programme
01:59endangers the physical and mental health of young people. Sophia Dujet, co-author of a
02:04book on sex education and former spokesperson of SOS Education, said it's
02:09The Trojan horse combination of two woke ideologies. The first is the ideology that there is the
02:16notion of sexuality in children, and the second is that the child is capable of defining
02:21their gender, whether they are a boy or a girl.
02:24In response to such criticisms, the government has revised some elements. References to gender
02:29identity are down from 15 mentions in an earlier draft to seven. The government also promised
02:35that changes would not take the place of families or parents.
02:39Let's bring in sociologist Kristen Barber. She's associate professor and chair of race,
02:44ethnic and gender studies at the University of Missouri, Kansas City. Thank you so much
02:50for being with us on the programme this evening. There has been much discussion here in France
02:56about consent in recent months, particularly, as I'm sure you're aware of, the trial of
03:00Dominique Pellicot, the man convicted over the mass rape of his former wife. Recently
03:05also we had the case of a woman who was blamed by the French courts in a divorce case because
03:11she was no longer having sex with her husband. So teaching young children here in France
03:17about consent, what impact do you think that is going to have more widely on French society,
03:22Kristen?
03:23Oh yes, I think that focusing on consent is really an issue that's key to combating rampant
03:32sexual abuse and advances in human rights. Valuing consent as a way of moving away from
03:39historical ideas that girls and women in particular are marital and sexual property.
03:46And that might spark some debate within particular communities. But ultimately, if we want to
03:53talk about consent as at its core, an issue of mutual respect, bodily autonomy and the
04:01importance of boundaries and avoiding harm, then we can't get away from a conversation
04:06about consent and about teaching children consent from a very young age.
04:11And here in France, this is happening despite the fact that the notion of consent, it doesn't
04:16actually exist under French law when we're talking about rape. It's not part of the legal
04:22definition. Is it time, do you think, for that to change? Or are you surprised that
04:26that is still an issue?
04:28Yeah, absolutely. There are changes that are taking place. Marital rape in France has really
04:33only been illegal since 1990. And that doesn't mean that there have been cultural shifts
04:39that we have seen along with legal shifts, right? The idea that there is a marital duty
04:45for women to be accessible sexually to their husbands reduces women to sex and sexuality
04:56rather than defining them as autonomous, free partners within that arrangement. So if we're
05:01going to, you know, value women as autonomous people who should be able to move around the
05:09world with freedom and from freedom of harm, then we have to begin centering consent in
05:16our definitions of what a healthy and legal relationship and sexual interaction looks
05:23like.
05:24And Kristen, what do you make of the French government's decision to push back discussion
05:29of gender identity until children are older?
05:34Research shows that children really form a solid understanding of their gender identity
05:41as early as three to five years old. And so it makes sense to talk with children about
05:49gender and gender identity. We can decide not to talk about gender identity, but ultimately
05:57children are very smart. From a very, very young age, they're picking up cues and ideas
06:03about who they're supposed to be as gendered people and how they're supposed to act, what
06:09their opportunities are, and who they're supposed to be in relationship to each other as girls
06:14or boys. And so, you know, we can pretend that children don't have any concept of gender,
06:21but this is not something that the research bears out. Researchers who pay close attention
06:27to children and spend time with children in large numbers and study children closely,
06:33sometimes over many, many years, see that children are actually very skilled at understanding
06:39gender and more complicated ideas than adults give them credit for.
06:44And Kristen, this whole pushback from conservatives when it comes to gender identity, it's something
06:49that we're seeing in the US also under Donald Trump. Why has this become such a divisive
06:55issue?
06:56Yes, we have, you know, I think culturally, both France and the United States has a long
07:02history of relying on clear definitions about gender and who people are supposed to be,
07:10who wives are supposed to be, who husbands are supposed to be, and their roles within
07:15society in order to define laws around who has access to what, in terms of access to
07:24jobs and salaries in the workplace, and who is expected to maybe be home with the children.
07:31And so, you know, as we have seen gender progress in terms of increased rights and freedoms
07:39around identities and access for women to work and independent financial security in
07:48the workplace, this has made some people nervous.
07:52And so pushing back against these ideas that gender identity is, and any pushing forward
08:01this identity, this issue that gender is a problem and something we should be afraid
08:05of is really about maintaining a status quo and is really ultimately an issue of power.
08:14And speaking of power, Donald Trump elected there in the US. During the campaign, we saw
08:19an increasing number of young male voters seemingly turning more and more towards the
08:24Republicans, towards Donald Trump. Are these young men becoming more conservative or is
08:29that too simplistic a way of viewing what's happening there?
08:35It's absolutely a cultural phenomenon. We're seeing a backlash against what some people
08:40consider to be feminist agendas, those policies that are pushing forward equality in the home
08:50and the workplace, in the economy. And so we have seen a shift in terms of men voting
08:57conservatively, particularly white men in the United States. But this is also true for
09:03white women in the United States who are moving to the right politically as well.
09:10And only last week, I think it was, we saw Mark Zuckerberg claiming that the workplace
09:15needs more masculine energy. What did you make of that? And are workplaces becoming
09:20more neutered or is this part of what you're describing a wider backlash against women
09:25and against feminism?
09:28Absolutely. As a gender scholar, I would say that Mark Zuckerberg, his comments really
09:34emphasize this privileging of men and masculinity in the workplace. We have a history of valuing
09:41characteristics such as aggression that we see as something that's important to leaders
09:46within the economy. And this is coming at a time when there are shifting conversations
09:52about how perhaps cooperation and clear communication are actually skills that we should be valuing
10:00and encouraging. And so ultimately, as women have increasingly moved into the workplace,
10:06it's not surprising to see people like Mark Zuckerberg try to redefine the workplace as
10:12a space for men and masculinity. It really shows a kind of nervousness around the inclusion
10:23of women in these spaces and an attempt to reclaim them as places for men and masculinity.
10:30You say this also tends to coincide with beliefs that masculinity is in crisis or under attack.
10:37What is behind that perception that masculinity is in crisis? Why do young men feel this way?
10:43Yes. I think that we have a cultural rhetoric that is working to scare boys and men into
10:52this idea that they're going to lose something if girls and women come into their classrooms
10:59and come into their workplaces and succeed and do well, that they're going to lose out
11:07on something rather than seeing girls and women as important collaborators in all aspects
11:13of life. At the same time, we're seeing these small movements around new sorts of masculinities
11:21where men want to be more culturally sensitive, want to have conversations about consent,
11:31and they want to listen to and value the things that women are saying and the life
11:36experiences that women bring to the table in helping to understand issues and solve
11:42problems. So we're holding two truths at once currently. There are shifts for men around
11:50sort of feminist ideas about incorporation of women and equality and equity and the value
11:57of diverse conversations and perspectives at the same time that we're seeing a backlash against
12:04this sort of progress in the form of trying to restake a masculine identity and value it as
12:13something that we should save, something that's at risk. Kristen, thank you so much for your
12:20analysis and your information there on all of that. It was great to have you with us on the
12:25programme this evening. We do appreciate your time. That's Kristen Barber, Associate Professor
12:29at the University of Missouri, Kansas City. Well, that is it from us for now.