Middlesbrough expert Joe Nicholson joins James Copley to preview Sunderland game
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00:00Hello everybody, welcome to the RAW podcast.
00:27My name's James Copley from the Sunland Echo.
00:29Today we're going to be previewing the Middlesbrough game with a very special
00:33guest and a man you are all familiar with.
00:36Welcome back to Jordan Nicholson.
00:38How are you doing, mate?
00:38Nice to see you.
00:40It's all good.
00:40How are you?
00:41Yeah, very good.
00:42Very good.
00:43Please fill the listener in on what you're doing now and why you've deserted
00:47us over here, leaving us with all the hard work to do.
00:49So yeah, well, ever since I left, Sunland's performances seem to have
00:53improved and are fine for promotion now compared to last season when
00:57I was reporting on them.
00:58So I'm now doing a teacher training course.
01:02I'm still part-time reporting on Middlesbrough for the Hartlepool
01:06Mail, obviously still keeping in touch with what's happening with
01:10Sunland and I've been to quite a few Middlesbrough games this season.
01:14So I have a bit of insight on them and hopefully I can kind of preview this
01:18game that we've got coming up next week.
01:20It's probably easier working with 30 kids than working with me and Phil
01:23to be fair, I imagine.
01:26Sometimes.
01:28Right.
01:28Let's get to it.
01:29So, I mean, there's only one place to start really in terms of Middlesbrough.
01:33And is Lasse going to be at the club by the time Monday rolls around?
01:37That's the big story.
01:39It seems to be changing all the time.
01:40What's going on, Joe?
01:42Well, he actually went off with an injury in their last game away at
01:45Preston, so the chances of him playing again in Sunland probably seem very slim.
01:49And there's obviously been a lot of this speculation and news that it looks
01:56like there's been a bid from Atlanta in the MLS and it looks like Middlesbrough
02:01are looking for a replacement.
02:02So it's going to be a big blow for them because Latelaaf last season, he reached
02:05double figures in terms of goals.
02:07This season, he's been one of Middlesbrough's standout players.
02:10And also Tommy Conway, who is Middlesbrough's other striker, has been
02:14injured for the last few weeks.
02:15So they've been quite reliant on Latelaaf's goals.
02:19He's been one of the very key players that if you take out of that side, you're
02:23not quite sure who else is going to step up with the goals.
02:25Ben Doak has been having a very good season on loan from Liverpool.
02:28I'd say they're probably the two main danger men in terms of attacking threats.
02:33Thankfully for Middlesbrough, Ben Doak will now be staying for the rest of the
02:36season because the deadline that was there for Liverpool to recall him has
02:41passed. So it looks like he'll be there for the rest of the season.
02:44But Latelaaf doesn't look likely that he'll be there.
02:47And Middlesbrough are now probably looking for a replacement for him, which
02:50will be a blow.
02:52And that replacement is probably not going to come before Monday, you wouldn't
02:55think. Even if it does, probably won't be in time to play.
03:01Yeah, probably won't be in time to play.
03:02And as I said, Conway as well has been, he had a good start to his Middlesbrough
03:05career, came in from Bristol City in the summer.
03:08I think he was on about eight goals, but he's been injured since about Boxing
03:12Day. He went off and doesn't look, he might be maybe ready to return for the
03:15bench, but unlikely to start.
03:17And then Marcus Fors was the player who came on for Latelaaf against Preston on
03:22Saturday. The player who actually scored in this fixture last season at the
03:27Riverside. He's had a niggling injury for the last year or so, and he came on
03:31against Preston and probably looked a little bit rusty, understandably so,
03:35because he's been in and out.
03:36And then the other option is Delano Bergsog, who's been playing out on the
03:40left wing. He could play up front, but probably not at the same level as a
03:44Latelaaf or a Conway up there.
03:46So Middlesbrough looks like they're going to be without their best striker in
03:50Latelaaf and may have to kind of have a makeshift option there against Sandlund
03:55on Monday.
03:57It feels like this Latelaaf transfer has been sort of bubbling under the surface
04:01for a little while, maybe even since the summer.
04:03I know there was a lot of talk earlier on in the January window.
04:06I'd sort of come round to the thinking that maybe Borough were going to hang on
04:09to him for another six months.
04:11But how much do you think that sort of his impending exit will affect the group
04:16Obviously, he's very important to how Middlesbrough play, 16 goals in the
04:19Championship last season, 11 goals already this season.
04:22But will Michael Carrick sort of be able to set up around that?
04:25You've mentioned there's a few injuries as well.
04:27What are the sort of alternatives?
04:30Yeah, he's a top goalscorer.
04:32So if you take the top goalscorer out of any size, it's going to take a hit.
04:35You know, you're not going to be probably not as good without your best striker in
04:39there. So, as I mentioned before, the options there, Conway probably won't be
04:43ready because of his injury.
04:45And then it's could force be ready to play through the middle, which is interesting
04:48because he's although he's he's finishing has been very good.
04:52He's not often played like through the middle.
04:55He's often been like a wide forward and has been effective there.
05:00But with the injuries, he might have to play through the middle because you've got
05:03Bendoke on one side.
05:06Riley McGree is often played off the left.
05:09He's had his injury troubles as well.
05:10They've just brought in Morgan Whittaker from Plymouth.
05:13So he's another winger that could potentially play out wide.
05:16So they've got this kind of void to fill in the middle.
05:19So Michael's force might be the one who has to go in there.
05:21Bergzorg as well, as I mentioned, has played there.
05:24I think he played there a few times for Huddersfield last season and has been used
05:27through the middle, but mostly for Middlesbrough, he's played wide off the left.
05:30So they've got quite a lot of options out wide, but maybe not a natural option in
05:35that in that middle position.
05:37So either force or Bergzorg, probably if Latte Latt's injury is too serious and he
05:42can't play.
05:43And yeah, as I mentioned before, big blow not having your top goal scorer in the
05:46side, and I'm sure Sunderland, you know, it'll be a benefit for them, Middlesbrough
05:50being without their best attacking player.
05:53Yeah, absolutely.
05:54And what other transfer stuff just briefly has been occurring at the Riverside?
05:58I've seen a couple of incomings.
06:00I was surprised to see the centre-back, Matt Clarke, go.
06:02We exchanged a few text messages.
06:04You pointed out to me that perhaps he was slipping down the pecking order player I've
06:08always sort of rated at Middlesbrough.
06:10Were you surprised by that one?
06:13I was a little bit.
06:13I think at the start of the season, Matt Clarke was, you could arguably say,
06:17Middlesbrough's best defender.
06:18He'd been out with quite a long-term injury and came back into the side at the start of
06:23this season, and started the season quite well, had some good performances.
06:29But Middlesbrough had Dale Frye coming back from a long-term injury.
06:33They had Radford van den Berg in there as well.
06:35He's a young centre-back who's come in from Holland and done very well.
06:39And that's probably their main first-choice partnership.
06:42But the minute, obviously, with Frye out as well, they brought in George Edmondson as
06:45well from Ipswich on loan.
06:47They've now made that deal permanent.
06:49So with them three, Clarke has kind of dropped down the pecking order.
06:52So then it kind of made sense.
06:53Maybe he wasn't playing a player of his ability who should be playing at a
06:59championship level.
07:00It made sense for him to go to Derby, a club he's already been at and performed well
07:06there. So he can go there and get some more first-team football.
07:09Middlesbrough probably would have wanted to keep him around and have kind of four strong
07:12centre-back options. But you're not going to keep a player of that ability when he could
07:17go and play for a championship club and play first-team football.
07:21So that kind of made sense, I suppose, from the player's point of view.
07:25In terms of other incomings, you mentioned Morgan Whittaker.
07:30A player who had an excellent season last season, didn't he, with Plymouth?
07:33I think he scored nearly 20 goals or maybe got there, maybe hasn't quite reached those
07:39heights this season. I think he's had some injury issues.
07:41But I think he's a player that a lot of championship clubs were kind of looking at.
07:45And you look at his stats, his goal scoring, his assists from last season.
07:49He looks like a strong signing on paper.
07:51Quite where he'll fit in, I'm not sure, because Middlesbrough have already got Ben Doe,
07:55because I mentioned on the right-hand side, he's been a very key player.
07:58And I think Whittaker, predominantly for Plymouth, was playing on the right.
08:02So could they bring both of those two into the same team?
08:05That kind of remains to be seen.
08:08And they've also brought back Ryan Giles, Middlesbrough from signing from Hull, a player
08:12who they had two seasons ago, who performed very well for them, the left-back, got a lot
08:18of assists that season.
08:20Since then, Middlesbrough did try to re-sign him after that season two years ago when
08:24Middlesbrough were in the playoffs.
08:25He's been to Luton, he's been to Hull.
08:27He's not quite kind of worked out for him.
08:31Middlesbrough was a very good fit for him.
08:32Just the way that Middlesbrough play and Michael Carrick play, they're kind of in
08:36possession. They move to a back three.
08:38They allow their left-sided defender, their left-back, to push forward and almost make
08:43like a front five.
08:44And Giles was kind of the ideal player for that system.
08:48Hasn't worked, as I said, at Luton and Hull, but could it work out for him going back to
08:53a club that the fans really like him?
08:56The manager knows what he can do.
08:57He seems to really fit that system as an attacking wing-back slash full-back.
09:01So whether he starts on a Monday remains to be seen.
09:06He came off the bench against Preston on Saturday and Middlesbrough fans will be hoping
09:10that they see the Ryan Giles from a couple of seasons ago rather than the player that's
09:14been struggling to get inside at Hull.
09:16So that'll be interesting to keep an eye on.
09:18And can he kind of rediscover that form that he showed two seasons ago?
09:23Or will it be a player that has struggled over the last two seasons?
09:25So that could be a really key position for Middlesbrough because the way they play, as
09:30I said, they kind of encourage their left-back, their left-sided defenders to really push
09:35on and be that attacking threat.
09:37And Giles performed that excellently two seasons ago.
09:39So they'll hope he can do the same.
09:42Interesting.
09:43You've touched upon Middlesbrough's style of play there and what they like to do under
09:47Michael Carrick, but really drill down for us, if you can, Joe, into the formation and
09:52Carrick's sort of preferred set-up this season in the Championship.
09:56Yeah, on paper, it'll be like a 4-2-3-1, like I think most teams kind of set up like
10:02that. That's what it'll be out of possession.
10:04It'll be like a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-2.
10:08Finnezaz usually plays as the number 10 and he'll start on to tie the striker.
10:12Similar to Sumlund, very similar.
10:14Yeah. But then in possession, as you see, kind of with a lot of clubs, they'll push
10:20one of their full-backs or their wing-backs high at the pitch, make it back three in
10:25possession, and then it'll almost come like a 3-2-5.
10:29The left-back could be Giles, could be Neto Borges, will push up very high.
10:34They like to keep the ball, they like to play out from the back.
10:36I think we saw that at the Stadium of Light that Middlesbrough want to have the ball and
10:41that kind of thing suited Sumlund that day because they wanted to press high and let
10:46Middlesbrough have the ball, try and play out from the back.
10:49And the way that Sumlund played, it really suited Sumlund.
10:51They really kind of boxed Middlesbrough in that day.
10:53I think you remember from the kickoff that Middlesbrough kicked off and Edmondson got
10:56the ball and he had nowhere to go because all the options were closed off and it really
11:00suited Sumlund that day.
11:01But yeah, Middlesbrough like to play out from the back.
11:03That's how Carrick wants them to play.
11:06There's been maybe a few fans this season kind of accusing him of not having a plan
11:10B, but I think if you do plan A well enough and you trust in that, then that should be
11:15good enough.
11:16And Middlesbrough are still kind of trying to make that work more weeks than not.
11:21The inconsistency has been a big thing in the last few weeks, you know, beat West Brom
11:25in midweek at home, a promotion rival, then go away to Preston and lose and the weekend
11:29before that they lost at Portsmouth.
11:31So it's finding that consistency.
11:33They've struggled to break teams down that have kind of sat in a low block a lot of the
11:37time of the season.
11:38That's kind of been Middlesbrough's Achilles heel.
11:39And I think we saw that at the Stadium of Light as well when Sumlund took the lead and
11:44in the second half, Middlesbrough had a lot of the ball, but didn't really do anything
11:46with it and couldn't break Sumlund down.
11:48So Michael Carrick has his ideas of how he wants to play when it clicks.
11:53It's been brilliant to watch at times this season.
11:56They've scored five and six at times this season, but when it hasn't worked, it has
12:01looked a bit stale and they've struggled to break teams down.
12:03So we'll see how that works against Sumlund on Monday.
12:08And how was Michael Carrick's reputation holding up in the court of public opinion
12:12amongst Middlesbrough fans?
12:14Because I have seen a few grumblings every now and again, and I was actually
12:18astonished when I checked his Middlesbrough record that he's now managed nearly 120
12:23games for Middlesbrough, which is crazy.
12:25It doesn't feel like he's been there that long, but I guess he has.
12:28He's been there for a significant amount of time.
12:30He's done a good job at sort of transforming a beleaguered Middlesbrough squad, hasn't
12:35he? But those inconsistencies are still sort of creeping in.
12:39Is there much talked about him and his style or are the concerns, as they are with
12:46Sumlund and Christian Speakman, sort of booted upwards a little bit?
12:50Where does the Middlesbrough mindset lie at the moment in terms of the fans?
12:56It's been on and off this season.
12:58I think the majority of fans, I think Carrick, he has quite a lot of credit in the bank for
13:02what he does, what he did two seasons ago when Middlesbrough got in the playoffs.
13:06He came in, they were right down near the bottom of the table after Chris Wilder left.
13:11Carrick came in and fired them up into the playoffs and had an excellent run.
13:16Should have really gone up that season when Luton got promoted.
13:20I think Middlesbrough were playing Coventry in the semi-finals.
13:23I think they should have won that game.
13:24I think they were the better side than Coventry, but got done on the counterattack and lost
13:29the game, which happens.
13:31And the season after, you lose your top scorer in Tuba Ratpom, lost Cameron Archer as well,
13:37who obviously chipped in with a lot of goals, who was on loan.
13:40Your two main strikers were ripped out of that team.
13:42Giles had chipped in with a lot of assists and wasn't there the following season.
13:46So I think in terms of the fans' perspective on Carrick, the following season, last season,
13:53there was kind of an understanding that a lot of key players had been taken out of the
13:56side and the fact that Middlesbrough didn't finish in the playoffs was kind of understandable
14:01because you had your likes of your Leicesters, your Southamptons, your Leedsers were coming
14:05down with parachute payments and Middlesbrough didn't have the squad to compete.
14:09I think this season, though, there was kind of an expectation that Middlesbrough could
14:13be challenging for a top two position, at least a playoff spot, looking at also the
14:19teams that came down.
14:20It was a rough start for you as well, wasn't it, at the start of the season?
14:24It was a so-so start.
14:25I think not as bad as the season before, where I think they had a really long, winless run.
14:31I think maybe stretched about nine games.
14:35This season, it was a bit more of a so-so start.
14:36The thing with Carrick is every time they've kind of needed a result, they've kind of got
14:40one.
14:41There was a point earlier in the season, I think they dropped out of the playoff places.
14:44They played Sheffield tonight and won even the West Brom game last week.
14:49They had a few results and came out and won that game against a promotion rival.
14:54So every time they've kind of needed a result, they have got a result.
14:58So it's kind of sometimes, from week to week, it's gone from one to the other.
15:05It kind of has been.
15:07And it's just kind of summed up Middlesbrough's form, because you go away to Portsmouth and
15:12lose to a team in the relegation zone, then you go and beat West Brom, a promotion rival,
15:17and then you lose away at Preston.
15:18It's just been that sort of season where they've just struggled to really find that consistency.
15:22But you look at the table, they are still fifth in the table.
15:25And I think probably a playoff spot, fifth or sixth, is probably where Middlesbrough's
15:29squad is at right now.
15:30I don't think they're quite as strong as your Leeds, your Burnleys, even some of them, Sheffield
15:34United.
15:35That four have kind of broken away.
15:37I think Middlesbrough are kind of where they should be in terms of fighting for that fifth
15:40or sixth spot.
15:41It's funny, isn't it, Joe?
15:45Because Middlesbrough can bemoan inconsistencies, and you mentioned the top four, but I would
15:50say all of those top four in the Championship are currently bemoaning bad results as well.
15:54I mean, Sunderland slipped up against Plymouth, Burnley and Leeds had that nil-nil draw where
16:00pretty much nothing happened.
16:01Sheffield United have thrown points away.
16:03So it's interesting, isn't it, the football fan mentality?
16:06One question I did want to ask you, Joe, about Carrick, just quickly, and you did hint on
16:11it earlier, but he has his way of playing, doesn't he?
16:14And he's not minded to change that.
16:17Is that a little bit of a frustration?
16:19We've seen it work for Vincent Kompany in a sense that he got Burnley promoted, also
16:24got them relegated, but then got the Bayern Munich job.
16:26So it seems to be a theme these days, doesn't it, that managers will stick to the principles
16:29no matter what.
16:30You know, sometimes it doesn't work out like Russell Martin at Southampton, but it's a
16:34common theme now.
16:35Yeah, as I mentioned before, I think when it clicks, it looks really good.
16:41I mean, Middlesbrough put six past Oxford at one point in the season, they put five
16:44past Luton.
16:46You know, they've scored four, five, six on multiple occasions this season, but had a
16:50good run, you know, just before the Christmas period.
16:53But for all that, there have been times where they have struggled to break teams down.
16:58And that's been a real frustration for large parts of the season.
17:02You know, the second game of the season, they went away to Derby, made an early mistake,
17:05went 1-0 down.
17:07And for all the ball they had, they just couldn't break Derby down and didn't even have many
17:12shots to kind of show for that.
17:14Same with the Sunderland game at the Stadium of Light, although Sunderland, I thought was
17:17a better side for the first kind of half an hour.
17:20Then they could just sit back, invite some pressure and Middlesbrough didn't think really
17:24did much with the ball, although they really had it.
17:27So that's kind of been the frustrating factor when, you know, when you have the ball and
17:31you can't break teams down, you don't have that cutting edge.
17:35That's when it can get really frustrating.
17:37But when it has clicked this season, I think Middlesbrough do have some some very good
17:40technical players.
17:42The addition of Ben Doak on the right, who I think is going to be a huge player that's
17:46going to have a say in this game on Monday.
17:49He's brought that kind of direct running, gets the ball, takes on his full back and
17:55has been a really important player for Middlesbrough this season.
17:57And that's I think that could be a key battle on Monday, him against Dennis Serkin at left
18:01back for Sunderland.
18:02So he's added that bit of variety.
18:04But Middlesbrough still have a lot of technical players that will be good with the ball, can
18:09take the ball in kind of tight areas.
18:11But it is sometimes having that variety to break a team down, someone to do something
18:16different, just to do that.
18:18And defensively as well has been an issue this season.
18:21Too many kind of individual errors at the back have led to conceding goals and dropping
18:26points that the Middlesbrough should know of.
18:28Silly goal conceded against against Preston last weekend when Luke Ayling got in a mix
18:33up and that's cost them any points there.
18:35So that's been frustrating this season.
18:38If they can iron those out, they have shown that they can be a good team at this level.
18:42Well it promises to be an interesting fixture Joe, I promised I wouldn't keep you too long
18:46and I also have some work to be in about five minutes.
18:48So we're going to end the podcast there.
18:50It's been brilliant to have you back and I'm sure we'll definitely have you on again at
18:54some point.
18:55And yeah, good luck with the good luck with the teaching.
18:57Yeah.
18:58Thanks.
18:59Cheers Joe.
19:00Thanks a lot.
19:01Thanks.