Preston insider George Hodgson joins James Copley to preview Sunderland clash...
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sun and Echo. My name is James
00:23Copley. Today I am joined by George Hodgson, Preston North End reporter for the Lancashire
00:30Evening Post. How are you doing George? Welcome to the podcast. Morning, mate. Good, thank you.
00:34You? Yeah, very well. Thanks for coming. Obviously Sunderland play Preston North End at the Stadium
00:40of Light on Tuesday evening, so we're going to whirl through a little bit of a preview podcast
00:44for you. George Preston, 16th in the league at the moment, no win in five, three draws and two
00:50losses. I think the last win came against Norwich City a month ago tomorrow, so Preston not in great
00:56form coming into this game against Sunderland on Tuesday. No, been a frustrating run. There was
01:01obviously the win over Burnley in the FA Cup, which was a massive high and sort of kind of
01:06taken eyes off that recent run of league form, which hasn't been helped by injuries. They drew
01:11with Burnley in there as well and Millwall are never an easy team for Preston, a bit of a bogey
01:16side. So, I think the frustrating one was probably drawing it home to Swansea. Felt like a team in
01:22and around you, a midweek home match. North End are really good in midweek, have been for a few
01:27years. Very rarely lose games and you thought on the back of beating Burnley, it'd be great to go
01:32and pick up three in the league. But I think emotionally going against sort of three days
01:37later was a bit of a challenge and they've been hit with injuries in the midfield and stuff. So,
01:44yeah, they'll be keen to, as much as they're not really threatening either end of the table,
01:48be keen to get back to winning ways and obviously Tuesday is going to be a tough match.
01:53Absolutely. We'll come to more broader things a bit later on, but talk us through those
01:58injury issues, George, and how they'll affect Preston coming into the game on Tuesday night.
02:05Yeah, well, midfield's been hit pretty badly. So, Ali Mekhani has been a bit of a regular
02:10all season, really, and a key man in there. Kind of tempo setter, aggressive tackler. He's
02:16going to be missing for about a month. Mads Frockjaar has been out and he's kind of the
02:21opposite, a real creator and flair player in behind the strikers and North End deal he missing
02:26when he's not available. So, he's been a big missing recent week. So, I don't think he's
02:29going to be back for Tuesday. Ben Whiteman, the captain, is back. So, that's a bit of a
02:33boost numbers-wise. But yeah, them two are certainly a miss. Militano's Majic didn't play
02:38on Saturday. Obviously, top scorer this season. So, yeah, certainly could have done with him
02:43coming off the bench at Bramall Lane or even starting the game. And then Jadon Magoma was
02:48on the sidelines as well on Saturday, a young left-wing back from Brentford who's been bright
02:52and again would have added something different down the side. So, yeah, been hit a few different
02:59areas and then missing a couple of defenders as well.
03:02Are you surprised by where Preston North End are in the table this season? Just thinking back to
03:08last season, we ended up finishing 16th and it's pretty miserable actually this stage of the season
03:13where there's not a great deal to play for. You're not looking over your shoulder, but you're not
03:16looking ahead to the play-offs either. And how much did the Ryan Lowe situation impact that?
03:21Because it came very early on into the season, didn't it? Did that destabilise things?
03:27Yeah, massively. Obviously, kind of uncertain time for Preston when your manager leaves after
03:32one game and he's gone through the whole pre-season, the whole transfer window and
03:36stuff and then bang, you've lost your first two games. And I thought the league this season,
03:41you couldn't really see three relegation certs or even two. So, yeah, there was certainly a little
03:46bit of concern. And then obviously they went for Paul Heckingbottom, a real steady hand on the
03:52wheel. I think his assistant manager, Stuart McCall, massively underrated, maybe not internally,
03:57but externally just a great guy to have alongside him. And they've steadied it really well,
04:02to be honest. The issue has just been winning games, really. They've only lost nine out of 36
04:09under Heckingbottom, but drawn 16. So, it's just getting that little bit extra in games to swing
04:15it in your favour. But no, I think there's a sort of a positive feeling around the management. And
04:21yeah, like you say, it's not going to be an exciting end to the season. 10 games to go,
04:2516. Looking at the table now, 12 points off sixth, but well clear 11 of 20 seconds. So,
04:32yeah, you know the feeling. It's not great, but certainly rather that than be
04:36fearing about League One or anything. Talk us through that Ryan Lowe decision,
04:40because I am fascinated by it. It came as a bit of a shock, obviously. He'd been at the club for
04:45quite some time. And to go through a transfer window to get the squad to how he wanted it,
04:52recruitment, all of that sort of stuff. Why was that decision made when it was? It felt bizarre.
04:59Yeah, it was. It felt like he needed to start the season well, because it won't go on too much,
05:06because Sunderland fans won't really care a great deal. But last season started brilliantly. They
05:10were top after eight games. And then after that, the form, I have to say, for sort of 38 games
05:17was almost relegation form. So, the season finished terribly. I think it was one win in the
05:23last eight games, didn't score in seven of them, I think, potentially six, lost six of them. So,
05:30there was a real negativity around the club, really, despite the 10th place finish.
05:35And he needed a good start to the season. I was thinking maybe five to 10 games, see how it goes.
05:41But, I mean, you lose to Sheffield United on the opening day of the season. A lot of people would
05:45have expected that. But I think he got a bad reception coming off the pitch. And then two
05:50days later, went into the training ground and said he thinks he's done, really. And he had always said
05:55that if he didn't think he could take it further, then he'd step away. But I'm just not sure what
06:00you knew in early August that you didn't know at the end of May, to be fair. Maybe just thought
06:05I'll have one more crack at it. And then that match just kind of compounded the feeling and
06:09he just had to leave. Interesting. And what has Paul Heckenbottom been like just as a man to
06:16deal with and for Preston generally? I asked that question because, obviously, he was at Sunderland
06:20as a youth teamer as well. And when Sunderland's managerial vacancies have arisen over the years,
06:26he's been a name that's often linked, especially if he's out of work. He's a shrewd operator in
06:31the Championship, isn't he, Paul Heckenbottom? And probably a little bit underrated, I feel.
06:36Yeah, he's been really good, to be fair. I've enjoyed dealing with him. As you know, you kind
06:39of talk to these people half the week and stuff. So, it's important to have a decent rapport and
06:44you tend to get straight answers. He's pretty personable. I think the North End fans see him
06:50as quite relatable and authentic. And yeah, he's tried to make Preston a little bit more
06:56watchable and brave and aggressive. And we've certainly seen that when they've been at their
07:01best, you know, nicking the ball high and confident to play out from the back and stuff.
07:06But I'd say he's quite pragmatic really, sort of takes each game, game by game, and tries to nullify
07:12opposition strengths and give the players real clear instructions about how they're going to
07:17win the match. And all the noises from the players and stuff has been really positive.
07:21So, I think they're certainly on board with him and are enjoying working with him. So,
07:24hopefully he can go into the summer on a bit of a high and then kind of full pre-season,
07:31full summer, give it a right go next year. But yeah, obviously the circumstances he came in
07:36this season, it was all about just making sure nothing terrible happened, which he's done.
07:42And do you feel like there's that ceiling under Paul Heckenbottom to sort of aim at in the summer
07:47with a full pre-season with a bit of recruitment? Can Preston get back up to challenging in your
07:52opinion? I think so. I think, obviously, I think the gap's getting bigger, isn't it?
07:57Premier League to Championship and stuff. So, you've kind of got two different elements.
08:01Can you get in the playoffs? Yeah, potentially. Can you get up in the Premier League and compete?
08:05Well, I mean, to me, that just seems a completely different world off. So, yeah, for Preston,
08:10it's just trying to get pushing in and around the playoffs like the likes of Bristol City and
08:15Blackburn have done this season. You know, Frank Lampard's going in at Coventry. So, you know,
08:19Preston have played a lot of these teams this year and there isn't much in it. It's just,
08:23like I say, those draws turning, very cliche, but turning some of those into wins. And yeah,
08:28I'd expect if you have a good summer, obviously going to lose some good lone players. And
08:33Emil Reiss, who I think has been linked with Sunderland, might be off as well. So,
08:35it's certainly an important summer and it'll be a busy one. But if they get it right,
08:40recruitment's massive for North End. I don't think there's any reason why they can't be sort
08:44of in that top half, trying to push for the playoffs, yeah. But obviously, promotion, another
08:49thing. Well, let's look forward to the summer, actually, because I did have a few players to
08:54ask you about, George. One was Emil Reiss, as you say, linked with Sunderland. I think he's
08:59out of contract in the summer. From your understanding, was there much in that?
09:02Do you think he'll stay at Preston or has he sort of bailed on the goal now?
09:06Yeah, I think the expectation is he's going to be leaving. So, we'll see what happens.
09:09It wasn't completely ruled out by the manager because I think Emil Reiss has enjoyed playing
09:14with him and working under him. But yeah, the noises are that he fancies something new and won't
09:19be signing a new deal. So, be interested to see where he goes. Obviously, an ambitious striker.
09:25He's showed he can score at this level. So, I think there'll be a few suitors. Maybe Sunderland
09:29will be one of them if they're still in this league next season. I'm not sure he's ready for
09:33the Premier League, although he might be useful as one of four in your attack kind of thing.
09:37Maybe he'll go abroad. So, yeah, we'll see. In terms of actual concrete Sunderland interest,
09:42I'm not too sure, to be fair. They might have had a look and had him on a list like
09:47Sheffield United did, I think. He was an option for them, but then they signed Tom Cannon. So,
09:52maybe something a little bit like that.
09:54And is he still in the team and still playing under Higginbottom despite the contract situation?
09:59Yeah, he is. To be fair, in the first half of the season, he was kind of
10:04the regular, really, starting matches. And I think that's the good thing, that even though
10:08this is in the background and everyone kind of knows what's going on, he's still giving his all
10:13for the team kind of thing and being trusted to play because you never want it. He's been a really
10:17good player for North End for four years and took a chance on him, spent a little bit of money to
10:22bring him over from Denmark. So, yeah, I mean, Preston been good to Reece and Reece has been
10:26good to them and you'd never want it to end sour. So, thankfully, he's still available and
10:32contributing for the team.
10:34Sam Greenwood as well, ex-Sunderland youth teamer. How's he done on loan this season at
10:38Preston? He's on loan from Leeds, isn't he? He's a player I always really liked. He actually scored
10:43against Sunderland as well last season. What have you made of him?
10:48I think it's worked out a little bit similar to Middlesbrough last season, where he's a brilliant
10:52first half or certainly a key player in the first half of the season. And he's kind of drifted away
10:58in recent weeks and you're just kind of urging him to get back to the levels he showed because at
11:02the start of the season, I mean, North End have an option to buy in in the summer and I think all
11:07the talk was, oh, my word, we need to get this done kind of thing. This guy's top quality and
11:12you can see his technical ability. He's come through at Arsenal and stuff and you can see
11:17that in him. He's got a terrific free kick, a real nice technical, tidy player. And, yeah,
11:23I'm not really sure what's happened in recent weeks. He's not been horrendous by any stretch,
11:27just not quite as influential. And it's a tough, gruelling season, isn't it? So,
11:31maybe it's taken its toll a little bit. But I love the way he plays. Like you say, he's got
11:36that quality, but he works his absolute socks off for you every game. So, yeah, certainly a likeable
11:42player in that regard. But now you're not sure if North End will go back in in the summer or maybe
11:48try and get him on loan again. So, we'll have to see. But, yeah, just trying to finish the season
11:51strongly, Greenwood.
11:53It worries me, George, that you say he's out of form with him being an ex-Sunderland player,
11:58Sunderland support and family coming at the stadium. That's a game for him to get
12:02right back in form, isn't it?
12:04He hit the post at Bromwell Lane from 20 yards on Saturday. So, he's getting a little bit closer.
12:09His shot's terrific. So, yeah, maybe he'll zing one in from 30 yards.
12:14Yeah, and he's expected to play, is he, under Heck and Bottom on Tuesday?
12:19Yeah, I'd say Dwayne Holmes is another injury. He's an attacking midfielder. So,
12:23if Frockyard misses out again, yeah, I think, obviously, he might factor in that
12:28connection with the club and stuff. So, yeah, he might start.
12:31And will Heck and Bottom have to rotate much from the side that lost against Sheffield
12:35United at the weekend? I just ask because I think Sunderland, you probably see a couple of changes,
12:41just given the intensity of the fixture list before the international break.
12:46Yeah, I think Ryan Ledsen potentially comes into the midfield and I think he was hoping
12:51Magoma and Osmajic might be fit. So, another couple of options. But, yeah, I'd only expect,
12:56given the injuries, maybe two or three changes to Preston's team.
13:01Alan Brown might start for Sunderland against Preston North End. He started Sunderland's last
13:07game 2-1 win against Cardiff at the Stadium of Light. Recently returned from injury. He suffered
13:12a broken leg but has looked decent for Sunderland. We are surprised by his exit from Preston North
13:18End in the summer, given how long he played for the club. He's a good stalwart, wasn't he?
13:24Yeah, it was a real shame. I think, you know, he loved the club, really, Alan Brown. And you're
13:28kind of looking at someone that could have broken the all-time appearance record at the club,
13:32genuinely. I think he was about 100 or something off. So, yeah, I was gutted to see him go,
13:38to be fair, almost as a player but also a character. He was a big presence, really, a
13:43leader and sort of standard setter. And, yeah, it was a blow to lose him and I think he could have
13:47been really useful at times this season as well. But, in the end, I think the writing was on the
13:52wall with Brown and, yeah, made the decision to move on. Not really spoken about why that was the
13:58case too much. Would have loved to talk to him about it. But, yeah, he's thought of really
14:05highly and I think it was just a case of where he was going to go. And I thought his interview
14:09with Sunderland when he signed was terrific, really. Spoke very well and you can see why that
14:13appealed to a massive club. He obviously saw something in the manager at Sunderland and thought,
14:20yeah, this could be good and he was right, wasn't he? So, yeah, no surprise he made a good decision
14:26because he's a really intelligent, switched-on guy. Yeah, we were buzzing to sign him in the
14:31summer just with his experience and everything that comes with it. He's obviously quality on the
14:36ball, his work rate and his energy is absolutely fantastic and it was a shame that he got that
14:41broken leg. Talk me through, George, how Preston North End play under Paul Heckenbottom. I've seen
14:48obviously Sunderland play Preston twice this season. We played them in the Carabao Cup right
14:54back in August. That was a very different game. I think you were under Mike Marsh at the time,
14:57weren't you? In the 0-0 at Deepdale. The 0-0 at Deepdale in the league. I've forgotten all about
15:02it, to be honest, because I think it was just so boring. So, how did Preston play at the moment?
15:07That was one of our better draws, to be fair.
15:13So, yeah, you've been blessed this season. But, yeah, back three still. But it's a lot
15:18different really to under the previous manager. It's a lot more kind of fluid. You're not the
15:22players just stood in their positions. He said the other week, I don't want my right and left
15:25centre-backs to be kind of bookends. They've got to go and join in with the play and stuff. So,
15:30yeah, like I said, a bit more watchable and they try and be aggressive where they can,
15:34hunting the ball high, because I think that's a great way for North End to create
15:38chances. They've not got tremendous individual 1v1 quality and stuff. But there's no reason
15:43why they can't be kind of as aggressive and fit, as energetic and horrible as anyone. So,
15:49yeah, they've been decent away from home a lot of the time since the turn of the year. So,
15:53I'd expect them certainly to go and compete at the Stadium of Light, to be honest. They tend to,
15:58Preston. They're rarely rolled over. They're always in games and there's going to be a decent
16:03planning structure there. It's just whether they can find those moments. So,
16:07yeah, I don't think it'll be easy for Sunderland, but they're the favourites going into the game.
16:13You mentioned the planning structure, but how do you think Preston will approach it in terms of,
16:18will they come and look to really press Sunderland to be attacking or will they
16:21perhaps sit off a little bit? I mean, Sunderland started really well against Cardiff and they tend
16:25to start really well at home. If they get that early goal, they tend to do quite well in games.
16:30But if they don't, they sort of shrink into themselves a little bit. And the home form,
16:35weirdly, despite Sunderland having only lost once in the league this season, the home form and
16:40performances have perhaps come a little cause for concern. There were draws against Plymouth
16:47Argyll and there's been little slip-ups at home from Sunderland. So, despite the form being really
16:52good, it is a little bit of a concern, which is strange. Yeah, we'll have to see. I think
16:58we went to Norwich recently and I kind of expected a backs-to-the-walls thing and they
17:02just went after Norwich. But Norwich do kind of play out from the back religiously. So,
17:06that was great to see. I think, yeah, they certainly won't come and just stick 10 behind
17:11the ball. They'll try and pick the moments and go toe-to-toe with Sunderland. Because they don't
17:15have anything to lose, really. So, there's no point going up there on a Tuesday night and just
17:18trying to play for a point. So, I'd hope to see, you know, if Magoma comes in, he's loads of energy
17:24down the left and stuff. So, I think, hopefully, North End will try and press and nick the ball
17:30and, yeah, carry a threat on the day. But I think they'll obviously respect Sunderland for the
17:35attacking quality they've got, especially in wide areas and stuff. So, yeah, ambitious but
17:42not stupid, I would imagine, on the night. Well, that sounds like it could be set up for
17:47a good game. George, thank you very much for joining us. Tell us a little bit more about
17:51yourself, where we can find you working the build-up to the game on Tuesday, if people would
17:55like to read a bit more about Preston. Yeah, just the Lancashire Post. We're on Twitter, Blue Sky,
18:02Facebook. We do a podcast as well, Preston North End Weekly, and we'll talk about the game
18:08afterwards. So, if anyone wants to go and listen to that, can do it. It's on Spotify and Apple.
18:13Yeah, brilliant. Well, thanks, George. Thanks for joining us. Thanks to the listener for tuning in.
18:18As always, you can also head over to the Sunderland Echo website for all of the latest
18:22build-up ahead of the game against Preston at the Stadium of Light on Tuesday. We'll also have
18:27coverage from Reduce the Breezes press conference and all of that good stuff. Thank you once again
18:34for listening.