Leeds United expert Joe Donnohue joins James Copley to discuss Sunderland game
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00:00Hello and welcome to the RAW podcast brought to you by the Sunilego.
00:24My name is James Copley and today I am joined by Joe Donoghue from the Yorkshire Evening
00:29Post and we're going to be discussing Sunderland's trip to Ellen Road on Monday night.
00:33Joe, welcome to the pod and how are you doing?
00:36Yeah, thanks for having me James.
00:38Doing alright, yeah.
00:39Leeds, top of the table currently, obviously being tailed by Sunderland and the others
00:43but yeah, looking forward to the game on Monday night.
00:46Absolutely.
00:47We'll start with current affairs actually because you've just come away from Daniel
00:50Farke's press conference.
00:52What's the news, how is he, what spirits is he in and what should we expect from Leeds
00:57United on Monday?
00:59Yeah, Farke in press conferences tends to remain very much on an even keel.
01:03He's never too high, never too low.
01:06If you suggest that his team are playing well, he'll come up with a critique for how they
01:09can play better and vice versa.
01:12If there's an individual who's maybe underperforming, he'll defend them.
01:17It's kind of much of a muchness today.
01:18The only real revelation is that Max Vober and Patrick Bamford won't be involved on Monday
01:24night.
01:25They've just had knee surgery, so he's out for six weeks and Bamford's had a little bit
01:29of a setback in his rehab from a hamstring injury.
01:32But apart from that, it's a pretty much fully fit squad and you'd have to say that on current
01:38form or over the course of this season, neither Vober or Bamford would be in that starting
01:4311 or the strongest 11.
01:45So it's a strong group.
01:47I was going to ask about Bamford actually because he, I don't want to disrespect him,
01:52but he seems to have had a little bit of a fall from grace in terms of first team opportunities
01:56at Leeds United.
01:57Obviously, historically at Leeds over the past four or five years, he's been such an
02:01important player.
02:02How's that sort of transition been for Bamford away from the first team?
02:06Yeah, I mean, this season he's played next to no minutes.
02:13He was out of favour.
02:15Joe Pirou and Matteo Joseph were favoured to him at the beginning of the season.
02:19He's then had injuries, which has kind of been a real subplot to his Leeds career.
02:25When he has played and he's got had rhythm and continuity, he's been very important,
02:29but that's been too, those sorts of times have been too few and far between.
02:33So there hasn't been a feeling that you can rely on him this season and not that they've
02:38needed him.
02:39He's obviously very useful to have when he does have that rhythm.
02:42He showed that the midpoint of last season came into the team around January, February
02:49time and I think scored seven or eight in 10 games.
02:52So kind of just turning the clock back there.
02:54But yeah, this year it's been difficult for him.
02:59And talk to me about Joe Pirou, actually, because he doesn't miss any games, does he
03:03really?
03:04And I think he's on 20 goal contributions for the season, 14 goals and six assists.
03:07A really, really impressive player.
03:10Yeah, I mean, availability is the most important commodity for a footballer.
03:17And Pirou just, he maintains that base level of fitness.
03:22He's always ready to be called upon, even when at the beginning of the season, when
03:25he wasn't first choice, he was just biding his time.
03:30And yeah, he's now got like 14 goals, six assists, got a goal and assist in midweek
03:36at Watford and sort of has this quality where he can kind of come across very sort of nonchalant
03:41on the pitch and maybe has more of a languid style, which, you know, has in the past when
03:47he hasn't been scoring, maybe hasn't gone down too well with the fans.
03:50But you can't really argue with the numbers that he's put up.
03:54Even when he was at Swansea, I think this is the fourth season in a row in the championship
03:58where he's put up double figures for goals alone, never mind the contributions that he
04:03gets with assists as well.
04:04Yeah, he's a real useful player that I think any championship manager would be blessed
04:11to have.
04:12Daniel Farkas obviously, you know, come to his defence numerous times in the past when
04:17he maybe hasn't been as effective.
04:19But again, 20 goal contributions over the course of 32 games so far, it's not really
04:24that much to argue with, links the play quite nicely.
04:29But I think that the main thing about Pirou is if you give him a chance, he is more often
04:33than not going to hit the target.
04:35And if he's hitting the target, he's hitting the corners.
04:39So yeah, I think that's kind of the message to the Sunderland defenders would be don't
04:43give Pirou that time and space to get through one-on-one.
04:46No, absolutely.
04:49And just taking it back a little bit to today's press conference, how do you find Daniel Farkas
04:53generally?
04:54Because I've been in a couple of his presses after Sunderland games and he comes across
04:58as very knowledgeable, very open, very honest.
05:01How do you find him?
05:03Yeah, I think I'd say pretty much all of the journalists in the Leeds press pack get along
05:08with him quite amicably.
05:11As I say, he always kind of remains on an even keel.
05:15Even if he feels hard done by by referees or he feels like his team have deserved more
05:19from the game or he feels let down by his players or whatever, he rarely sort of hangs
05:24people out to dry.
05:25He'll always try and look at things with sort of an objective viewpoint.
05:31He's yeah, I think he is quite open and transparent apart from the things which he definitely
05:37doesn't want to talk about, which given that we've just had our eight transfers, I can
05:42honestly not count the number of times he's replied to a question about transfer links
05:47with well, we'll not talk about business until it's completed or I won't comment on players
05:52who aren't contracted to Leeds.
05:54So that kind of rules out those opportunities when you want to maybe just get a little bit
05:58of insight from him on a potential transfer target.
06:01But apart from that, he's yeah, he's a good talker, comes across really well.
06:06And yeah, while he might not be well, previous, not right now, because I mean, he is he's
06:12pretty much man of the moment given the 14 games unbeaten.
06:15But you know, previously there have been fans who've maybe not really bought into it, maybe
06:19not drank the Farker Kool-Aid.
06:21But I mean, he doesn't let that bother him.
06:24He's very much stays pretty, pretty even.
06:28I was going to ask about that very matter, actually, in terms of BLM, sorry, in terms
06:32of Farke's career arc at Leeds United, especially after last season's disappointment.
06:38And it always feels from an outsider's perspective of Leeds United is that there's a bit of a
06:43Marcelo Bielsa, Spectre Houghton, the managers in terms of he was such a cult figure.
06:47He did so much for Leeds United, got them out of the championship, playing this amazing
06:52brand of football and they competed in the Premier League as well after that.
06:56What has been fans' reaction to Daniel Farker, particularly after last season's disappointment
07:00as well, where Leeds did so well in terms of points returned, but there were just two
07:05other teams who did better than them.
07:06And I felt, you know, I felt that was harsh on Leeds as well, actually.
07:10Yeah, I mean, looking at the numbers from the back end of last season, I think it's
07:14literally just Sunderland and Leeds who've accrued 90 points in a second tier season
07:20and not gone up either through the playoffs or automatically.
07:24So it was a real anomaly.
07:26But there were a number of people who were saying, well, look, how has he not been able
07:31to get this team promoted automatically when you have the likes of Jorginho Ruta, Crescencio
07:35Somerville, Archie Gray, Glenn Kamara, all of whom left in the summer.
07:40But you know, there was maybe a little bit of scepticism that Farker was the right man
07:44at the beginning of this season because Leeds was still kind of getting up to speed with
07:48a newish squad, there were fresh faces in there.
07:54But I think we've definitely seen that he's absolutely the right man for the team right
08:01now.
08:02You know, he hasn't really, he hasn't, full stop, he hasn't had a crack at the Premier
08:05League.
08:06So if Leeds were to go up, then I feel like the record would be wiped clean.
08:11But certainly for the championship, he's done it twice before with Norwich.
08:15He came extremely close last year with Leeds.
08:18He's managed to mitigate for the absences or the losses of, you know, Ruta, of Somerville,
08:26of Gray.
08:27And yeah, he's definitely got this team playing, they are, they're very much behind him.
08:35And I think you'd find it difficult to find a Leeds fan right now who would say with their
08:41chest quite bravely that they don't want Farker as their manager right now.
08:45In the summer, that might be different because there might be reservations over style of
08:49play, how that translates to the Premier League, wanting to dominate possession, wanting to
08:52dominate the ball, just might not be as pragmatic or practical in the top flight.
08:58But for right now, I don't think you could have many complaints as a Leeds supporter.
09:03You touched upon it there, but were there concerns in the summer when you mentioned
09:07those high profile players leaving the club for a lot of money as well?
09:11I saw a little bit of a mini rebuild in the summer that Farker and the club have negated quite well.
09:15Did you expect Leeds to go on and do as well?
09:18The caveat to that being that they did spend some money as well, didn't they?
09:22Yeah, of course. I mean, they spent 10 million on Joe Roden.
09:24That's not in the gift of most championship clubs.
09:28Like, let's not make any bones about that.
09:31That is aided greatly by parachute payments, by commercial deals, sponsorship and, you know,
09:36filling the stadium every week, which obviously not every club has the benefit of.
09:42But what Farker has been able to do is he's helped spread the goals around or rather,
09:48you know, his players have helped him in that regard.
09:50Whereas last season there was seemingly, I mean, maybe this is revisionism,
09:54but there's seemingly a reliance on Somerville getting the ball to Somerville.
09:58He'll cut inside onto his right and he'll bend one into the far corner.
10:01There were a number of occasions where that was the case, that won Leeds games in which they maybe weren't
10:06the best team or it was a case of get the ball to Jorginho.
10:09He'll do some magic. He'll dribble past three players, set someone up.
10:14There was maybe a reliance on those two and a few others.
10:19But this season you've got, you know, Dan James is the man of the moment right now.
10:23He's got, he's near enough 20 goal contributions.
10:26He's hit double figures for the season in goals in midweek, even though he was out for a little while injured.
10:32He's been excellent. Pirou, again, 20 goal contribs, like you mentioned earlier.
10:38While he's not set the world on fire, which sounds bizarre, but he has been extremely reliable.
10:45You've got Mano Solomon, who's obviously on loan from Spurs.
10:48Again, a player that most championship clubs wouldn't be able to afford to bring in for a season.
10:54But he's, since coming into the team and getting settled, he's now putting up seven goals, seven assists.
10:59I think it is already. Even Brendan Aronson.
11:03He was someone who returned from a loan spell last season because he didn't fancy playing in the championship.
11:10Has now, well, decided in the summer that he really wanted to, you know, hike up his boots and say,
11:17you know what, I do fancy the championship now. I want to give it a shot and write my name into Leeds folklore.
11:23I'm not sure whether he will be written into Leeds folklore, but this season, again,
11:27he's the one who's been extremely reliable, particularly at home.
11:32Eight goals from him, which I think if you'd asked me or anybody else who follows, you know,
11:38Leeds either professionally or as a supporter, I think you would have said,
11:43I doubt Brendan gets eight goals at the sort of two thirds mark of the season.
11:47So, yeah, they've chipped in, they've spread the goals really nicely.
11:51Jadon Bogle's chipped in with a few from right back. Joe Roden's got one.
11:56There's been a couple from Tanaka in the middle who's been excellent and a real revelation.
12:01So they've really spread the load a lot more in terms of goal contributions.
12:06And, you know, if one of them doesn't get you, then another one will.
12:09And it's kind of the story with how Leeds play.
12:11You know, if you're able to withstand the dominance that Leeds will have over the ball
12:17and you actually then try and attack against them, they'll catch you on the counter.
12:20You know, they've got the most fast break goals in the division.
12:22So, yeah, it is a blessing for Daniel Farker that he does have quite a lot of talented players at his disposal.
12:31You've touched upon it there in terms of the style of play and the numbers,
12:36and it's all very impressive, the level of play that Leeds have got.
12:39But how has Farke got a tune out of all of these players?
12:42And what would you say is Leeds' MO under Daniel Farker in terms of their playing style
12:46for somebody that maybe hasn't watched Leeds a lot over the first two thirds of the season?
12:53I'd say that the MO against Pura sides in particular is to dominate the ball
12:56and basically just exhaust the opposition, tie them out, get your rest in possession,
13:01and then they can turn it on at the click of a fingers.
13:07You know, they have the ability to slide in Dan James in behind and he's going to be quicker.
13:12He's going to be sharper than most full backs in this league.
13:16And certainly central defenders, they've got the, you know, that their press is quite good from the front.
13:23Aronson is key to that because he's so energetic.
13:26While he might not be turning the ball over loads,
13:28he is forcing players to make passes that maybe they don't want to make,
13:32that they're not able to break lines.
13:35They're not able to play forwards because they're being put under pressure.
13:40I'd say that the MO is certainly to be the protagonist in the game.
13:45You know, Leeds want to put their stamp on things,
13:47or rather Farka wants his Leeds team to put their stamp on the game.
13:53But there has also been, you know, instances of individual quality
13:57and they often show themselves in transition.
14:01You know, Solomon and James on the wing since the turn of the year have both been excellent on the break.
14:07They've been very good in build up as well, but I think that's kind of where they are, they excel.
14:12And yeah, Farka actually said in the post-match presser at Watford on Tuesday,
14:18you know, sometimes reporters can suggest that Leeds are a very good counter-attacking side,
14:22or that's a great counter-attacking goal, when in actual fact they didn't turn over possession.
14:27It was just a patient build up followed by a quick incisive final action.
14:32So yeah, they are just, they enjoy the ball.
14:37They're very good at protecting the ball.
14:38They don't give it away a lot.
14:39And as a result, they don't concede many goals.
14:43And presumably they would expect to dominate large parts of the game against Sunderland at home.
14:48Yeah, I think that is the expectation.
14:51Sunderland obviously being one of the better sides in this division this season.
14:55I think there has to be an element of understanding that Sunderland will have spells in the game because,
15:01you know, they've got the players, they've got the rhythm and the continuity and clearly the belief as well.
15:06But Leeds will still want to control things because that is what they've done at Elland Road all season.
15:12They've got the best home record in the league and that's no coincidence.
15:15You know, they have taken the game to opponents.
15:17And even when it's been wins by a single goal margin, you know, they're not all seven nils against Cardiff.
15:24They have had the lion's share of possession.
15:26They've had the lion's share of chances and shots and good, you know, they create good opportunities.
15:32It's why their XG is so high and so far above the other teams who have got good XG numbers this year.
15:41I'm fascinated by this fixture.
15:43Obviously, Sunder, Leeds, I think in the championship is always going to be box offices.
15:47Now, Elland Road is a fantastic ground to go to.
15:50I love going there. The atmosphere is always tremendous.
15:52It's a big game. There's something on it.
15:54And just looking back to the game at the Stadium of Light, that's the first,
15:58well, I think it's the first and only team I've seen come to the Stadium of Light.
16:01And I've thought, wow, OK, they're really impressive.
16:05I think they're a couple of levels above us for periods.
16:08But I felt during that game as well, Sunderland really came into it and grew in confidence.
16:12And they had spells in that game.
16:14It was a real ding dong battle.
16:16Obviously, Sunderland with a large slice of fortune to get the point.
16:19I think what's really interesting, Joe, is both teams have probably progressed since then,
16:24as you would expect growing into a season.
16:27What worries me, though, is that I think Sunderland have only won by more than a one-goal margin
16:34a couple of times since October.
16:36We sort of tend to edge marginal games.
16:38We have beaten the likes of Sheffield United, but it's never by very much.
16:43I've always thought that we had it in us to maybe win by four, five, six, but it hasn't happened.
16:48Whereas with Leeds, you mentioned the Cardiff result and a few others this season,
16:53they've got goals in that side and that does concern me.
16:57Yeah, I mean, the current run that they're on, so it's a 14-game unbeaten run in the league.
17:02But over the last six, they haven't conceded, which again, is very Burnley-esque of them.
17:07But they've also scored 18 in that time without reply.
17:12And there's been nine different scorers.
17:13So it's a case of how do you, for opponents, it's a case of how do you stop this team?
17:19Because you've got three different scorers on four goals each and then five separate,
17:23or six, I think, separate scorers.
17:25You've also got one.
17:27And I think maybe only one or two, maybe just the one has been a penalty.
17:30So they do have many ways of finding a breakthrough.
17:37I do expect Sunderland to have a period or periods in this game on Monday night
17:42where Leeds are maybe under the cosh a little bit because of the quality
17:46that Sunderland do have in possession as well.
17:49I think Isidore is the type of forward that maybe Leeds haven't come up against too much this season.
17:57You know, obviously, he's playing with great confidence at the moment.
18:01You know, the Burnley game aside, obviously.
18:04But, you know, Enzo Laffey as well, I think, is somebody who is the type of player
18:11that Leeds rarely come up against in this division.
18:14So it'll be a real, it'll be a very good acid test for if Leeds are destined for the Premier League.
18:19It'll be a very good acid test against, certainly individuals,
18:22for what they're going to come up against week in, week out next year.
18:25So they should be relishing this game.
18:28You know, let's test ourselves against one of the best teams in this division.
18:32And also, it's a real opportunity to put some daylight between themselves and Sunderland.
18:37And, you know, that third place spot.
18:40Yeah, whereas from a Sunderland perspective, we're probably thinking a point or win.
18:44Otherwise, the top two might be beyond us.
18:47Caveat to that, again, there's a lot of football to be played.
18:51I want to get your take, Joe, on the home crowd at Ellen Road.
18:54I touched upon it there, but the passion is brilliant.
18:57They always turn out in the numbers.
18:59I think Leeds are one of the most fervent fan bases in the country.
19:03But when Sunderland came there last season, they set up to frustrate Leeds and there was an expectation.
19:08And I distinctly remember that Ellen Road crowd.
19:11There was a few grumblings.
19:13It wasn't Leeds' nightly missed chances.
19:16It perhaps didn't go the way that they wanted.
19:18And I thought, hmm, this crowd is maybe turning a little bit.
19:22Do you think there's the potential for that to happen with Leeds doing so well?
19:26Obviously, I think they're in a better position now than they were back then.
19:29How do you sort of judge that as a Leeds United reporter?
19:35I think there's definitely been undercurrents throughout the past two years of, you know,
19:39I wouldn't say there's an expectation because I don't think Leeds fans take it for granted that they win games and they win so regularly.
19:46I think there is an expectation, though, that they will be the protagonist in the game.
19:51And when they're not taking chances, it kind of comes back to the whole, oh, well, it's very Leeds that, you know, you've heard the Premier League versions, probably it's very Spursy.
20:01We have a similar thing, Sunderland doing a Sunderland.
20:05Yeah, exactly.
20:07And I feel like every fan base kind of has that belief or the leaning that, you know, our team or my team will always, you know,
20:15they'll throw in the towel at X juncture or Y juncture because that's just who we are.
20:21That's, you know, in our DNA.
20:23I think there's an undercurrent of that at Leeds that, you know, they've had it rough for a long time in the past.
20:29So, you know, why would it be any different?
20:33The crowd is an interesting one, because if an away team like Sunderland did last year, they can come, they can set up and really frustrate.
20:40You know, they can feed on that lack of patience.
20:44And particularly when it's a young team like Leeds' was last season, they maybe don't deal with the pressure from, you know,
20:53from the fans or outside in the same way that a more experienced team would and kind of go about it in a more workmanlike fashion.
21:00I'd say this year Leeds are definitely more workmanlike.
21:04They may be less individually exciting, but they are, they get the job done.
21:11I think with the crowd, it's probably one of the stadiums in English football where they are very much in the game and using them,
21:22either Leeds harnessing the energy to spur them on, or the opposition using the frustration to sort of embolden themselves and just,
21:33you know, remain resolute and or turn the home fans on the team.
21:39It's definitely one of those crowds which is tangible in a stadium rather than, I don't know, somewhere else where it's maybe a bit more of a tepid atmosphere.
21:47No, I absolutely agree. Can we talk quickly about the goalkeeper as well, Meslier, because he had that howler against Sunderland earlier on in the season.
21:54And I remember him coming in for a lot of stick from Leeds fans and just football fans in general.
22:01Daniel Farke stuck with him, didn't he? And, you know, there was a lot of speculation that he wouldn't.
22:08How have Leeds fans been with him?
22:10How's he been since that? Because there was, of course, as well, the photo that circulated on social media with him, with our manager,
22:17Regis Lebris, after the game. And they were sort of sharing a smile.
22:20I felt a bit sorry for him, really. You know, they did know each other and he did get a bit of a pile on.
22:25But it was such a weird, freak goal as well.
22:29And I think if you slow it down frame by frame, and perhaps he should have reacted better, but it does get the weirdest of bubbles.
22:37It is like a one in a million goal.
22:39It's so strange. I felt for him in the aftermath, to be honest.
22:44You could describe it as like a Darren Bent beach ball moment, couldn't you?
22:47Yeah, it was breathtaking. Yeah, it was strange, very strange.
22:53So odd. And I mean, there's a concern among some Leeds fans that maybe Melier is not it for the Premier League.
23:01I think he's, I mean, he showed in recent weeks that he can be a very good shot stopper.
23:07There was an incident or rather there was the game at Hull at the beginning of this year where Leeds were 3-1 up.
23:13They were cruising and maybe Melier was, well, Melier was at fault for the final goal.
23:20And you could argue that he was at fault in some way for all three of the concessions that day.
23:26But Farkas stood by him. He was saying today that, you know, one of the things is you just got to get back out onto the training pitch.
23:32You've got to work hard.
23:35I mean, the view for a lot of people is that Leeds would need a new goalkeeper in the summer.
23:41I'm not so sure that, I mean, it's difficult to say because you don't know if Leeds are going to go up, if they're going to stay,
23:47and then how that affects players' individual circumstances.
23:49But, you know, Melier has had, to my mind, one very good season and a few passable ones.
23:59I'd put last year, even though he got so many clean sheets, I'd say it was passable because he was not really put under that much pressure.
24:05I'd say the same for this season. You know, he's not been subjected to the number of shots that, you know, a Victor Johansen at Stoke, for example, has been.
24:13And he's been excellent. But in recent weeks, I mean, at Watford, he kept, I mean, I say kept Leeds in the game,
24:19kept Leeds in front from a good Moussa Sissoko shot. I think it was at 1-0 or maybe 2-0.
24:27But yeah, he's, out of the starting 11, he's probably one of the few that Leeds fans are maybe not entirely sold on,
24:35because they've seen the evidence over the past four or five years that he's been number one,
24:39that he does have that, maybe not as glaring an error in him as the Sunderland one.
24:45But there have been just a few concerns and a few that kind of spring to mind.
24:52Absolutely right. Predictions before we tail off, because I know you've got to get away and do some stuff.
24:56How do you think you'll feel come the end of the game? I'll go first, to be honest.
24:59You've worried me by what you've said. I knew Leeds were a good side, but having listened to yourself and that underlying confidence,
25:05I think I'd be happy with a point, to be honest, an optimistic point. That's my prediction.
25:11I don't think a point is a bad result for Leeds either.
25:13I think the most important thing for them over the next two games, being Sunderland and Sheffield United, is that you don't lose any ground.
25:21I think it's a case of what Leeds have done since they went top is just kept teams at arm's length.
25:26You know, they've traded places with Sheffield United on occasion,
25:29but that's been due to, you know, fixture scheduling where one team leapfrogs because they played a game more and whatnot.
25:36But I think Leeds will be favourites for it, obviously.
25:39But this is definitely a game in which they won't have it all their own way, which has not been the case recently.
25:47I know they went to Coventry and played really well there against a team that had won their last four, I think.
25:53Cardiff were like seven games unbeaten before they came to Elland Road.
25:57But I think Sunderland are a different entity and you can see that in the points tally in the championship table.
26:02You know, there is a top four and then there's the rest and Sunderland are very much in that.
26:07So I think I don't anticipate there being loads of goals because I think Sunderland have to be pragmatic.
26:17And I acknowledge that if they go hammer and tongs with Leeds and try and match them from an attacking standpoint, they will concede.
26:26But I do think this is two really, really well matched teams going at each other.
26:32So I think it'll be narrow, but I think I'm going to go Leeds with a 1-0.
26:38Very, very good. It's an interesting game, a fascinating game.
26:41I'm really looking forward to it. Joe, thanks for joining me.
26:44Tell the listeners where they can find your work ahead of the game, if they'd like to read a bit more on Leeds United.
26:50Yeah, anything that you'd like to be kept abreast of on Leeds, I'm on xBlueSky at Joe Donoghue.
26:58D-O-N-N-O-H-U-E is the spelling of my surname.
27:02But yeah, pretty much there or just go on to the Yorkshire Evening Post website.
27:06I'm sure under the Leeds United section, there'll be something that myself and my colleagues have written,
27:12which will be hopefully instructive and informative before the game on Monday.
27:16Brilliant. Thank you very much, Joe. And thank you, everybody, for listening to the Raw podcast.
27:21You can head over to the Sunderland Echo website for all of your Sunderland-focused content ahead of the game against Leeds United on Monday.
27:27Thanks once again for tuning in.